Guest Column: District 6 Democrat Says Debate Great for Democracy
Published 2018-08-21 by
Cory Allen Heidelberger
Last updated on 2018-08-22
Teresa Ann Robbins, Democratic candidate for District 6 Senate, isn’t afraid of debate. She recognizes open conversation with people who disagree with us as a vital part of America’s “evolving democratic adventure”:
Teresa Ann Robbins
Let’s Disagree!
It’s intellectually stimulating and healthy to disagree and offers us the opportunity to define who we are. Disagreement encourages us to engage in self-reflection as we compare our principles and beliefs.
Disagreement prompts us to share our ideals and beliefs with others to persuade them to think as we do and can become frustrating when others do not agree with our arguments. When disagreement is conducted with mutual respect it can improve relationships and encourage productive and on-going dialogues.
If we choose to restrict our discourse from others who do not share our personal views or beliefs, we limit a valuable opportunity to engage in personal growth.
We might look at disagreement as our personal opportunity to examine our beliefs and ideals and to identify what we feel is worthy of sharing with others.
I choose to freely communicate my beliefs and values with others and to work to embrace the importance of mutually respectful discourse. Surely if we shut ourselves off from those who hold differing views and beliefs we shrink from a healthy social growth process.
Our democracy has always supported a shared foundation of values and principles that continually reminds us that our nation’s strength is engagement of our citizens in the business of supporting our democracy as we continue to work toward our evolving democratic adventure.
Let us not retreat in fear and isolation as we make the decision to engage with each other to strengthen our lives and our families to rise to the challenges faced by our nation.
We have prevailed because of our determination to succeed and because we have historically shared a clear vision of American ideals. We must remember that we have a history of withstanding numerous and diverse attacks against our democracy. I am concerned that complacency may instill in us a denial of the threats that our nation is currently facing. I believe that our nation will continue to face threats external and internal that threaten our national safety and security. I believe that this sustained threat will require each of us to work together, and to express our desire to remain a strong and viable democracy.
I am a retired mental health and addictions professional and a lifelong public servant. I decided to run for public office not as a politician but as a public servant. I want to encourage respectful discourse and inclusive partnerships to help us move forward together.
Teresa Ann Robbins; Democrat Candidate for SD Senate District #6 [letter to the editor, received by Dakota Free Press 2018.08.20].
OS, what happened to Molly Tibbetts is heartbreaking and unforgivable, but it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity or any other bias you put on it. It also has nothing to do with the article that Cory has written about this awesome lady. Bad people and good people aren’t defined by race, religion or ethnicity. Gary Ridgway killed 49 people and he was a white man. Should I then generalize that all white men are serial killers. Have empathy for Mollie and her family, listen to what Teresa has to say and stop being such a bigot.
mike from iowa
I vote we close down OldSicko for repeated failures to stick with the subject at hand.
owen reitzel
You have my vote as well MFI
OldSarg
RJ, you are correct “but it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity or any other bias you put on it.”. I never mentioned race, ethnicity or any other bias other than being biased against killers coming into our country illegally and killing our Americans. I was simply wanting a debate just like the article mentioned.
“I am a retired mental health and addictions professional and a lifelong public servant. I decided to run for public office not as a politician but as a public servant.” A a public servant you would think protecting the citizens she serves would be one of her top priorities.
Teresa Ann is talking about real debate, about real issues, with the intent of “improv[ing] relationships and encourag[ing] productive and on-going dialogues.” Key word there: productive. Our discourse, even when it involves opposing views, should lead us all to a better shared understanding of our world and the problems it faces. Teresa Ann appears to agree with me that healthy debate is not throwing punches; it is testing ideas and building solutions that benefit the everyone involved.
No, OldSarg, you’re not acting in the spirit of Teresa Ann’s essay and discussing the merits of honest debate. You’re trying to pull us away from discussing wise, sensible words that you can’t really dispute and instead start a whole separate fire and throw gasoline on it, just for the pleasure of seeing if you can burn anyone. That is the exact opposite of what Teresa Ann is asking us to do.
OldSarg
No, Cory, I am not. You want an honest debate. You want a debate about what a “public servant” will do to serve their citizens. Let’s debate why that lovely young lady had to die at the hands of a monster that snuck into our country illegally and why you are defending him over an American citizen. Why not have her debate why that family will never see their daughter they loved come home. let’s debate why she will never again vote, work, live or contribute because someone you are defending are here illegally butchered her in a field and left her body there to rote. let’s debate the facts Cory. Lets have this debate.
mike from iowa
People should run as public servants, after all, it used to be an honor to serve the public. Then the public trough proved to be too lucrative by way of lobbyists and korporations and pols allegiances were bought and paid for.
OldSarg
What do you know about public service mike? Have you ever worked for the town, city, county, state or federal government? Just wondering. . .
jerry
The “monster” was gainfully employed for the last several years…by a prominent Republican operator
“The dairy farm owned by Dane Lang and his father, Craig Lang, the latter a prominent Iowa Republican, confirms that it has employed Cristhian Bathena Rivera for the last four years.
Craig Lang has previously served as President of the Iowa Farm Bureau and as President of the Iowa Board of Regents, which governs the state’s public universities. This past June, he lost a close GOP primary for state Agriculture Secretary.” Seems like he really did not sneak across the border, but came to a place that needed him.
Debbo
One of the very best things about college and grad school were the informal discussions. I did undergrad at NSC in Aberdeen and we gathered in the Den (Do they still call the student union that?), where we argued at length about a wide variety of issues. Sometimes it began with something a prof said, but not always.
Even better were the discussions in the cafe at seminary/grad school. We were passionate about christology, atonement, the merits of liberation theology, forgiveness, biblical authorship, interpretation, translation, etc.
I learned early on that just about every statement was challenged and that was good. Belief systems were developed slowly, through a hard process, with real foundations built under them.
The informal talks with classmates were as critical to the learning and growing process as time in class with professors.
We were exceptionally respectful through it all. It was great.
Porter Lansing
OldSoviet is using a trick often used in Russian propaganda. [ i.e. – A “logical fallacy” is an argument or belief based on erroneous reasoning.] (He certainly isn’t smart enough to have thought of it himself, as witnessed by dozens of right wing talk radio hosts parroting the same propaganda, today.) The false reasoning is that if no undocumented people were in USA, no crimes committed by undocumented people would occur. (If the undocumented foreigner who killed the girl hadn’t been here the girl would be alive.) This straw man argument is designed to divide Americans over our level of tolerance for foreign workers coming here to do jobs that Americans won’t do. The fallacy is that it’s impossible to stop every illegal border crossing. Using that impossible scenario as a basis to draw a conclusion is illogical and invalid. [ e.g. – If there were no pedophiles allowed to be teachers or Priests, no children would be molested by teachers or Priests. This argument is another illogical fallacy. It’s impossible to stop all pedophiles from becoming teachers or Priests and building a conclusion on that fallacy is illogical and invalid.]
Sensibility shows us that USA’s extensive immigration laws and border enforcement are doing a quite proper job in stopping illegal migration. This is proven out by the data showing that more undocumented people leaving USA than entering.
*OldSoviet’s propaganda is a worthless attack on American’s sensibility and is only being believed by shallow thinkers … like OIdSoviet, himself.
OldSarg
Porter, on this you know I am right and calling me names or twisting the truth will not help your argument. That illegal monster should not have been in the country and that young lady should still be alive, living life, loving, caring and even running. Instead, because of the action of those who believe like you do she is dead. If what jerry said above is true and he was a known illegal employed illegally by an American he should also be charged as an accessory to this horrible crime. About one in five inmates in federal prison are foreign-born, and more than 90 percent of those are in the United States illegally. There are 24,476 illegals in federal prison, each one costs the American Tax Payer $31,000/year. Almost a billion dollars is spent every year to house these criminals who should not be here. How many young ladies would still be alive, how many American kids could go to college, how many American families could receive rental assistance, how many elderly Americans could receive better health care if that money were spent on them instead of illegals here killing our daughters? In truth, there is no debate here. You know I am right and you know what I have listed above are fact. facts are what they are and only an idiot would argue against facts. One of our own is dead. Found in a field. Was she alive, did he rape her, why was he still here? This death is at the hands of all of those who defend illegals being in our country.
Porter Lansing
Sorry, young man. Your argument is a false narrative about USA’s immigration system. This confessed killer was a murdering bastard. Any attempt to use a little girl’s death to sooth your guilt for all the innocent women and children you helped kill (in the Middle East) with Ellsworth drones, is just your misplaced mental anguish. Go see a shrink at the VA. We’re hoping for your peace of mind. Suicide is never the answer!!
mike from iowa
OldSalivaryEffluent, do you know what “NO” means?
b —used as a function word to express the negative of an alternative choice or possibility
As in stick to the subject. Do not hijack post. That is a no-no.
JonD
I would agree that open debate is the best way for the public to learn about their candidates but a debate requires a moderator, and we just don’t seem to have those anymore. Every political debate I have seen in the last three decades has just been a juvenile smearfest with the moderators refusing to do their job and keep the speakers on subject and within time constraints. Put them in soundproof glass booths and cut the mic when they don’t adhere to the rules or it isn’t a debate and it doesn’t do anything to inform the public.
And everyone here, please, please…OldSarge and his cohorts are not here to discuss relevant topics, their entire purpose is to prevent you doing so. They can’t accomplish that without your willing cooperation. Every time you reply to one of them the blog, and the national dialogue itself, suffer and become less than they are meant to be.
Jake Kammerer
Debate=good: Not debating=bad: ….. Noem? …
OldSarg
JonD you clearly feel debating is a great learning event so long as we only debate what you wish to debate? Why is my topic not relevant? How it is one can only debate what you deem as debatable? Is it because my topic is clearly not to your favor? Is it that there really is no debate and the illegal should not have been here to kill that young lady?
Please enlighten me why it is ok to allow illegals into our country to take our jobs, suppress our wages, commit an inordinate and disproportional crimes, ship their money to their home country and kill our daughters. The inquiring minds would like to know. . .
OldSarg
Porter, you’re better than that.
owen reitzel
Of course OS this killer worked for a family for 4 years who are prominent in the Republican part in Iowa. Bet they were paying this guy nothing.
Should this family take some of the blame here?
bearcreekbat
I do not want to go off topic nor respond to OS directly as I have already explained to OS why there is no such thing as an “illegal” human being, not even Donald Trump who has now been accused of a felony under oath in federal court, nor the several “best people” he hired in his administration who have now been convicted of federal felonies. I only post this comment to remind those that read OS’s hateful fiction and tripe that such language is posted by a person who wishes to demean others, primarily hispanics, as less than human.
It is a racist term aimed at dehumanizing people, including every little child ripped from his or her parents and locked in cages, the child’s refugee seeking family and every other immigrant in this country suspected of, or accused of, lacking “papers,” while otherwise trying to raise hatred toward even those who have proper papers.
Attempting to exploit the tragic murder of a young woman in an effort to advance an irrational hatred of millions of innocent people is the result of a sick mind and should be rejected by rational thinking people, just as RJ’s intial comment suggested. That is not a debatable subject.
OldSarg
owen: Whether a democracy or a republican I don’t care. If the law is applied evenly and fairly I would agree.
bear: To call me a racist is stupid on your part. 1) Nationality is not race. 2) When entering the Nation illegally and claiming a child is yours without proof it would be irresponsible to leave the child with the criminal until you knew, for fact, it was the child of the perp. 3) It is criminal to support the stealing of children and anyone who does so is heartless and cruel. I was not exploiting the death of the young lady. Yo are defending the murderer in an attempt to undermine the safety of our citizens.
All I get from this discussion is this: OldSarg embraces the values upheld by this decent Democratic candidate and believes that debate should be civil and constructive. Debate should not involve distractions, off-topic arguments, or ad hominem attacks. Debate should not turn into appeals to fear or efforts to isolate or exclude individuals or entire groups of people because of their opinions, ideology, race, national origin, religion, or political affiliation.
mike from iowa
Well and truly saideth about debates, but, I, personally, am such a good hater I would have trouble abiding by the niceties and regulations listed. So I am not debater material.
On a good hater day, I can make OldSalamander look like a piker.
bearcreekbat
Unfortunately Cory’s last comment that OS “embraces the value” of decent debate seems to suggest that I ought to respond to OS’s last comment as Cory appears to conclude the arguments in OS’s comments are within the realm of proper debate. Somewhat against my better judgment, here goes:
(1) I did not call OS a racist. Rather I said that the term “illegals” when used to dehumanize hispanics and other immigrants is a racist term.
(2) I appreciate OS’s honesty in declining to deny his intent to dehumanize a large group of individuals by calling them “illegals.” The decision not to contest my characterization of the intent in using such a label confirms OS’s goal to dehumanize an entire group of people presumably perceived by OS as less worthy than people OS identifies with (and I don’t mean murderers or felons).
(3) I have never said one word in defense of the alleged murderer, so OS’s suggestion otherwise is a factual mistake.
(4) It seems a positive attribute that OS claims to care about children, but it is concerning that OS supports the purported power of our government to remove children from parents seeking refuge in the USA, isolate these children, and cage them, without our government first presenting any meaningful evidence that the children are in danger, nor any opportunity for a parent to be heard prior to the removal of the child, nor any prior determination of whether the removal would be harmful to the child or contrary to the child’s best interest. Indeed, OS wants to place the burden on the parents to prove something, while at the same time failing to object to the lack of a hearing to meet this parental burden.
OldSarg
bearbat, do not think I don’t care about the children on the border. I do, and I think the situation they were forced into by their parents, who could not follow the law, is very sad and has proven deadly for many kids we may never know of, but to blame me and others that feel following the law is imperative to a civil society shows your lack of compassion for your fellow citizens by exposing them and their family members to the dangers presented by allowing thousands of hardened criminals into our country hiding within the community of illegals who may very well be good people. This was proven in Iowa and has been proven across our Nation.
bearcreekbat
Despite his claim of being blamed, OS is not the victim in cases where children are arbitrarily removed from their parents. Folks who propagate views expressed by OS are enablers of such horrible conduct. They enable the conduct by spreading the lie that mothers and fathers seeking seeking refugee status are hiding criminals, despite the oft cited research that immigrants, undocumented or otherwise, commit fewer crimes than citizens (one study, however, comes to a different conclusion). Many profess to worship the “law” while making excuses for the much more serious unlawful conduct of citizens like Trump and his team, supporting the denial of any meaningful “due process” for the parents and children being arbitrarily seperated, and voting for serial law violaters like dangerous traffic offender Kristi Noem. Apparently, the worship of the “law” is a bit selective and depends upon whose ox is being gored. Here is what the libertarian Cato institute has been reporting from its studies of immigrant law violaters:
Alex Nowrasteh, with the libertarian Cato Institute, analyzed the Texas data to make a comparison of immigrants in the country illegally and native-born residents. In a recent post he noted that in 2015 Texas police made 815,689 arrests of native-born Americans, 37,776 arrests of immigrants in the country illegally and 20,323 arrests of legal immigrants. Given the relative populations for each group, he wrote, “The arrest rate for illegal immigrants was 40 percent below that of native-born Americans.”
In addition, he wrote, the homicide arrest rate for native-born Americans was “about 46 percent higher than the illegal immigrant homicide arrest rate.
. . .
. . . the available research that estimates the relationship between illegal immigration and crime generally shows an association with lower crime rates. . . . . ”
It is difficult to understand why OS and others are so frightened by folks that seek refuge in the USA. The crime stats show they commit fewer crimes. The USA has a great police and law enforcement fully capable of arresting those who do commit crimes, as well as prisons to incarcerate the dangerous, whether citizens, immigrants or refugees. The unemployment rate is very low and it seems a given that virtually no qualified citizen will lose a job he desires due to immigrants.
In my view, if OS’s alleged fear is valid, then he needs psychological help as such fear is indeed irrational. We know from experience that killers are capable of committing atrocious crimes regardless of where he or she was born or raised – indeed consider the citizenship of most mass shooters in recent years, including Columbine, Las Vegas, Sandy Hook, etc.
On the other hand, it seems all too possible that the demonization of refugees and immigrants affecting OS is just a cruel political tactic to spread fear among voters (a tactic that unfortunately has a long history of temporary success), epecially in 1930’s Germany). In either case, we would all benefit if OS and others would take positive actions based on their sympathy for the children at borders rather than repeatedly attempting to demonize their parents with provably false claims.
OldSarg
bearbutt, I never said I was a victim of anything other your nasty attacks and in those cases I’m still not a victim. I’m not frightened or even the least bit worried about myself at all. I am worried for those, like yourself, that haven’t recently, if ever, traveled the world to include to lost third worlds areas where any resemblance of a civil society is absence. If you honestly think importing people from those areas is safe it demonstrates a level of ignorance I can’t help you with. Just the arrogance of those who assume that because someone else walks upright and speaks a language shares the same cultural values as you might is stupid beyond belief. Believe it or not there are still Homo sapiens that eat other humans as part of their regular diet and wipe their butt with their bare hand. . .
Porter Lansing
OS is threatened by immigrants because they work harder, have a higher i.q. and don’t act like an ape. He conflates people born in third world countries with new Americans because his self esteem has bottomed out. Attacking those going by him on the totem pole of success are his only target. In short, being a hater makes him feel worthwhile.
bearcreekbat
OS, when someone claims to have been “blamed” for some transgression they deny committing, that suggests they see themselves as a victim.
And we are not talking about any third world countries. We are talking about our very own USA and its capacity to help those in need and protect us from those who would commit serious crimes, such as violent crimes, dangerous misdemeanors, and most felonies.
To argue that we should refuse to assist an entire group of people, including innocent men, women and children seeking refuge and a path to safety and a better life for their children, on the grounds that some could engage in criminal behavior is evidence you think so little of our law enforcement that you fear they cannot deal with these criminals.
Rational folks know that there will always be criminals among us, regardless of where they were born, and that our dedicated law enforcement will adequately deal with the actual criminals without the necessity of harming or excluding most innocent people. For example, we haven’t excluded every innocent person from future attendance at schools, nightclubs, churches, nor country western concerts despite the slaughters committed by citizens of our Country.
Your claim to fear for me is inconsistent with your apparent efforts to cause me emotional distress. You have demanded that I leave my home in SD in past threads because of my views opposing the dehumanization of our fellow human beings. You have repeatedly called me stupid, as well as a myriad of other derogatory names. Such behavior on your part is inconsistent with any possible concern or fear for my safety or well being. Instead it evidences a failed attempt to marginalize and demean me (as well as many other posters on this blog).
I would like to assist you to overcome your fear of refugees and immigrants and have tried to accomplish this by citing studies and facts that contradict the idea that refugees and immigrants harm us. Perhaps some day you might realize that they pose no danger to you, me or any of us that is greater than our own citizens pose to us, but until then I will do my best to post factually accurate information documenting the irrationality of such fears. The last word in this “debate” is yours.
Porter Lansing
Hear, hear BCB …
mike from iowa
10 p.m. Tuesday: Yarrabee Farms owners say in a statement they employed Rivera and that he “was vetted through the government’s E-Verify system,” conveying
9:27 a.m. Wednesday: Rivera’s attorney, Allan M. Richards says in a court motion that Rivera is here legally and that Craig Lang, an owner of Yarrabee Farms, can vouch for that.
More on Rivera:
What we know about Mollie Tibbetts’ accused killer
Man charged in Tibbetts’ death was working in Iowa legally, lawyer says. Employer says no
Cristhian Rivera death ‘hadn’t come across (investigators’) radar’ until Monday
Rivera worked at a farm owned by a prominent Iowa Republican family
Craig, center, and his son Dane Lang, left, of Yarrabee Farms walk out of their home to speak to the press on their farm on Wednesday, Aug. 22, 2018 in Brooklyn. Cristhian Rivera, a former employee at the farm has been charged with the murder of Mollie Tibbetts. Brian Powers/The Register
Midday Wednesday: A Register story on Richard’s motion goes viral, sparking incendiary debate on political websites.
2:45 p.m. Wednesday: Yarrabee Farms holds a news conference where owners backtrack and say they did not use the E-Verify system. Rivera used fake documents and a false name to gain employment, the farm owners claim. “What we learned within the last 24 hours is that our employee was not who he said he was,” Dane Lang said.
jerry
Looks like the Lang’s are bracing for a wrongful death lawsuit. Remember O.J. got off on the murder charge but was found guilty in civil court. The Ying and the Yang of the Lang covering their arse’s. They sound more like trump every time they speak.
It’s too bad Teresa Ann Robbins’s prose has been mostly ignored. She wrote good advice about the the proper role of civil discourse in democracy. Her essay deserves far more discussion than OS’s angry agenda of distraction, division, and exclusion.
Here debate this: Another Illegal Alien killed another American. This time in Iowa. Should we close down the border or not?
https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2018/08/21/mollie-tibbetts-missing-iowa-student-body-found-brooklyn-iowa-city-poweshiek-county-press-conference/1051131002/
OS, what happened to Molly Tibbetts is heartbreaking and unforgivable, but it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity or any other bias you put on it. It also has nothing to do with the article that Cory has written about this awesome lady. Bad people and good people aren’t defined by race, religion or ethnicity. Gary Ridgway killed 49 people and he was a white man. Should I then generalize that all white men are serial killers. Have empathy for Mollie and her family, listen to what Teresa has to say and stop being such a bigot.
I vote we close down OldSicko for repeated failures to stick with the subject at hand.
You have my vote as well MFI
RJ, you are correct “but it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity or any other bias you put on it.”. I never mentioned race, ethnicity or any other bias other than being biased against killers coming into our country illegally and killing our Americans. I was simply wanting a debate just like the article mentioned.
“I am a retired mental health and addictions professional and a lifelong public servant. I decided to run for public office not as a politician but as a public servant.” A a public servant you would think protecting the citizens she serves would be one of her top priorities.
Teresa Ann is talking about real debate, about real issues, with the intent of “improv[ing] relationships and encourag[ing] productive and on-going dialogues.” Key word there: productive. Our discourse, even when it involves opposing views, should lead us all to a better shared understanding of our world and the problems it faces. Teresa Ann appears to agree with me that healthy debate is not throwing punches; it is testing ideas and building solutions that benefit the everyone involved.
No, OldSarg, you’re not acting in the spirit of Teresa Ann’s essay and discussing the merits of honest debate. You’re trying to pull us away from discussing wise, sensible words that you can’t really dispute and instead start a whole separate fire and throw gasoline on it, just for the pleasure of seeing if you can burn anyone. That is the exact opposite of what Teresa Ann is asking us to do.
No, Cory, I am not. You want an honest debate. You want a debate about what a “public servant” will do to serve their citizens. Let’s debate why that lovely young lady had to die at the hands of a monster that snuck into our country illegally and why you are defending him over an American citizen. Why not have her debate why that family will never see their daughter they loved come home. let’s debate why she will never again vote, work, live or contribute because someone you are defending are here illegally butchered her in a field and left her body there to rote. let’s debate the facts Cory. Lets have this debate.
People should run as public servants, after all, it used to be an honor to serve the public. Then the public trough proved to be too lucrative by way of lobbyists and korporations and pols allegiances were bought and paid for.
What do you know about public service mike? Have you ever worked for the town, city, county, state or federal government? Just wondering. . .
The “monster” was gainfully employed for the last several years…by a prominent Republican operator
“The dairy farm owned by Dane Lang and his father, Craig Lang, the latter a prominent Iowa Republican, confirms that it has employed Cristhian Bathena Rivera for the last four years.
Craig Lang has previously served as President of the Iowa Farm Bureau and as President of the Iowa Board of Regents, which governs the state’s public universities. This past June, he lost a close GOP primary for state Agriculture Secretary.” Seems like he really did not sneak across the border, but came to a place that needed him.
One of the very best things about college and grad school were the informal discussions. I did undergrad at NSC in Aberdeen and we gathered in the Den (Do they still call the student union that?), where we argued at length about a wide variety of issues. Sometimes it began with something a prof said, but not always.
Even better were the discussions in the cafe at seminary/grad school. We were passionate about christology, atonement, the merits of liberation theology, forgiveness, biblical authorship, interpretation, translation, etc.
I learned early on that just about every statement was challenged and that was good. Belief systems were developed slowly, through a hard process, with real foundations built under them.
The informal talks with classmates were as critical to the learning and growing process as time in class with professors.
We were exceptionally respectful through it all. It was great.
OldSoviet is using a trick often used in Russian propaganda. [ i.e. – A “logical fallacy” is an argument or belief based on erroneous reasoning.] (He certainly isn’t smart enough to have thought of it himself, as witnessed by dozens of right wing talk radio hosts parroting the same propaganda, today.) The false reasoning is that if no undocumented people were in USA, no crimes committed by undocumented people would occur. (If the undocumented foreigner who killed the girl hadn’t been here the girl would be alive.) This straw man argument is designed to divide Americans over our level of tolerance for foreign workers coming here to do jobs that Americans won’t do. The fallacy is that it’s impossible to stop every illegal border crossing. Using that impossible scenario as a basis to draw a conclusion is illogical and invalid. [ e.g. – If there were no pedophiles allowed to be teachers or Priests, no children would be molested by teachers or Priests. This argument is another illogical fallacy. It’s impossible to stop all pedophiles from becoming teachers or Priests and building a conclusion on that fallacy is illogical and invalid.]
Sensibility shows us that USA’s extensive immigration laws and border enforcement are doing a quite proper job in stopping illegal migration. This is proven out by the data showing that more undocumented people leaving USA than entering.
*OldSoviet’s propaganda is a worthless attack on American’s sensibility and is only being believed by shallow thinkers … like OIdSoviet, himself.
Porter, on this you know I am right and calling me names or twisting the truth will not help your argument. That illegal monster should not have been in the country and that young lady should still be alive, living life, loving, caring and even running. Instead, because of the action of those who believe like you do she is dead. If what jerry said above is true and he was a known illegal employed illegally by an American he should also be charged as an accessory to this horrible crime. About one in five inmates in federal prison are foreign-born, and more than 90 percent of those are in the United States illegally. There are 24,476 illegals in federal prison, each one costs the American Tax Payer $31,000/year. Almost a billion dollars is spent every year to house these criminals who should not be here. How many young ladies would still be alive, how many American kids could go to college, how many American families could receive rental assistance, how many elderly Americans could receive better health care if that money were spent on them instead of illegals here killing our daughters? In truth, there is no debate here. You know I am right and you know what I have listed above are fact. facts are what they are and only an idiot would argue against facts. One of our own is dead. Found in a field. Was she alive, did he rape her, why was he still here? This death is at the hands of all of those who defend illegals being in our country.
Sorry, young man. Your argument is a false narrative about USA’s immigration system. This confessed killer was a murdering bastard. Any attempt to use a little girl’s death to sooth your guilt for all the innocent women and children you helped kill (in the Middle East) with Ellsworth drones, is just your misplaced mental anguish. Go see a shrink at the VA. We’re hoping for your peace of mind. Suicide is never the answer!!
OldSalivaryEffluent, do you know what “NO” means?
b —used as a function word to express the negative of an alternative choice or possibility
As in stick to the subject. Do not hijack post. That is a no-no.
I would agree that open debate is the best way for the public to learn about their candidates but a debate requires a moderator, and we just don’t seem to have those anymore. Every political debate I have seen in the last three decades has just been a juvenile smearfest with the moderators refusing to do their job and keep the speakers on subject and within time constraints. Put them in soundproof glass booths and cut the mic when they don’t adhere to the rules or it isn’t a debate and it doesn’t do anything to inform the public.
And everyone here, please, please…OldSarge and his cohorts are not here to discuss relevant topics, their entire purpose is to prevent you doing so. They can’t accomplish that without your willing cooperation. Every time you reply to one of them the blog, and the national dialogue itself, suffer and become less than they are meant to be.
Debate=good: Not debating=bad: ….. Noem? …
JonD you clearly feel debating is a great learning event so long as we only debate what you wish to debate? Why is my topic not relevant? How it is one can only debate what you deem as debatable? Is it because my topic is clearly not to your favor? Is it that there really is no debate and the illegal should not have been here to kill that young lady?
Please enlighten me why it is ok to allow illegals into our country to take our jobs, suppress our wages, commit an inordinate and disproportional crimes, ship their money to their home country and kill our daughters. The inquiring minds would like to know. . .
Porter, you’re better than that.
Of course OS this killer worked for a family for 4 years who are prominent in the Republican part in Iowa. Bet they were paying this guy nothing.
Should this family take some of the blame here?
I do not want to go off topic nor respond to OS directly as I have already explained to OS why there is no such thing as an “illegal” human being, not even Donald Trump who has now been accused of a felony under oath in federal court, nor the several “best people” he hired in his administration who have now been convicted of federal felonies. I only post this comment to remind those that read OS’s hateful fiction and tripe that such language is posted by a person who wishes to demean others, primarily hispanics, as less than human.
It is a racist term aimed at dehumanizing people, including every little child ripped from his or her parents and locked in cages, the child’s refugee seeking family and every other immigrant in this country suspected of, or accused of, lacking “papers,” while otherwise trying to raise hatred toward even those who have proper papers.
Attempting to exploit the tragic murder of a young woman in an effort to advance an irrational hatred of millions of innocent people is the result of a sick mind and should be rejected by rational thinking people, just as RJ’s intial comment suggested. That is not a debatable subject.
owen: Whether a democracy or a republican I don’t care. If the law is applied evenly and fairly I would agree.
bear: To call me a racist is stupid on your part. 1) Nationality is not race. 2) When entering the Nation illegally and claiming a child is yours without proof it would be irresponsible to leave the child with the criminal until you knew, for fact, it was the child of the perp. 3) It is criminal to support the stealing of children and anyone who does so is heartless and cruel. I was not exploiting the death of the young lady. Yo are defending the murderer in an attempt to undermine the safety of our citizens.
He was in iowa legally.
Indeed mfi, dude was here legally. Des Moines Register has the story https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/investigations/2018/08/22/mollie-tibbetts-alleged-killer-iowa-legally-lawyer-missing-student-body-found-brooklyn-trump/1064567002/
Old Soviet is a propaganda tool for Putin/trump that lies as much as trump does and that says a lot.
So, how was he here legally? Only his lawyer says he was here legally and that is his job.
Yeah, that is what real news reports, actual law from actual lawyers. Get used to it Old Soviet, the criminal enterprise called the GOP is about to be put out to pasture. https://www.axios.com/2018-midterm-elections-republicans-corruption-duncan-hunter-6db34e6e-7032-470d-934f-42e402e08a7d.html
All I get from this discussion is this: OldSarg embraces the values upheld by this decent Democratic candidate and believes that debate should be civil and constructive. Debate should not involve distractions, off-topic arguments, or ad hominem attacks. Debate should not turn into appeals to fear or efforts to isolate or exclude individuals or entire groups of people because of their opinions, ideology, race, national origin, religion, or political affiliation.
Well and truly saideth about debates, but, I, personally, am such a good hater I would have trouble abiding by the niceties and regulations listed. So I am not debater material.
On a good hater day, I can make OldSalamander look like a piker.
Unfortunately Cory’s last comment that OS “embraces the value” of decent debate seems to suggest that I ought to respond to OS’s last comment as Cory appears to conclude the arguments in OS’s comments are within the realm of proper debate. Somewhat against my better judgment, here goes:
(1) I did not call OS a racist. Rather I said that the term “illegals” when used to dehumanize hispanics and other immigrants is a racist term.
(2) I appreciate OS’s honesty in declining to deny his intent to dehumanize a large group of individuals by calling them “illegals.” The decision not to contest my characterization of the intent in using such a label confirms OS’s goal to dehumanize an entire group of people presumably perceived by OS as less worthy than people OS identifies with (and I don’t mean murderers or felons).
(3) I have never said one word in defense of the alleged murderer, so OS’s suggestion otherwise is a factual mistake.
(4) It seems a positive attribute that OS claims to care about children, but it is concerning that OS supports the purported power of our government to remove children from parents seeking refuge in the USA, isolate these children, and cage them, without our government first presenting any meaningful evidence that the children are in danger, nor any opportunity for a parent to be heard prior to the removal of the child, nor any prior determination of whether the removal would be harmful to the child or contrary to the child’s best interest. Indeed, OS wants to place the burden on the parents to prove something, while at the same time failing to object to the lack of a hearing to meet this parental burden.
bearbat, do not think I don’t care about the children on the border. I do, and I think the situation they were forced into by their parents, who could not follow the law, is very sad and has proven deadly for many kids we may never know of, but to blame me and others that feel following the law is imperative to a civil society shows your lack of compassion for your fellow citizens by exposing them and their family members to the dangers presented by allowing thousands of hardened criminals into our country hiding within the community of illegals who may very well be good people. This was proven in Iowa and has been proven across our Nation.
Despite his claim of being blamed, OS is not the victim in cases where children are arbitrarily removed from their parents. Folks who propagate views expressed by OS are enablers of such horrible conduct. They enable the conduct by spreading the lie that mothers and fathers seeking seeking refugee status are hiding criminals, despite the oft cited research that immigrants, undocumented or otherwise, commit fewer crimes than citizens (one study, however, comes to a different conclusion). Many profess to worship the “law” while making excuses for the much more serious unlawful conduct of citizens like Trump and his team, supporting the denial of any meaningful “due process” for the parents and children being arbitrarily seperated, and voting for serial law violaters like dangerous traffic offender Kristi Noem. Apparently, the worship of the “law” is a bit selective and depends upon whose ox is being gored. Here is what the libertarian Cato institute has been reporting from its studies of immigrant law violaters:
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/is-illegal-immigration-linked-to-more-or-less-crime/
It is difficult to understand why OS and others are so frightened by folks that seek refuge in the USA. The crime stats show they commit fewer crimes. The USA has a great police and law enforcement fully capable of arresting those who do commit crimes, as well as prisons to incarcerate the dangerous, whether citizens, immigrants or refugees. The unemployment rate is very low and it seems a given that virtually no qualified citizen will lose a job he desires due to immigrants.
In my view, if OS’s alleged fear is valid, then he needs psychological help as such fear is indeed irrational. We know from experience that killers are capable of committing atrocious crimes regardless of where he or she was born or raised – indeed consider the citizenship of most mass shooters in recent years, including Columbine, Las Vegas, Sandy Hook, etc.
On the other hand, it seems all too possible that the demonization of refugees and immigrants affecting OS is just a cruel political tactic to spread fear among voters (a tactic that unfortunately has a long history of temporary success), epecially in 1930’s Germany). In either case, we would all benefit if OS and others would take positive actions based on their sympathy for the children at borders rather than repeatedly attempting to demonize their parents with provably false claims.
bearbutt, I never said I was a victim of anything other your nasty attacks and in those cases I’m still not a victim. I’m not frightened or even the least bit worried about myself at all. I am worried for those, like yourself, that haven’t recently, if ever, traveled the world to include to lost third worlds areas where any resemblance of a civil society is absence. If you honestly think importing people from those areas is safe it demonstrates a level of ignorance I can’t help you with. Just the arrogance of those who assume that because someone else walks upright and speaks a language shares the same cultural values as you might is stupid beyond belief. Believe it or not there are still Homo sapiens that eat other humans as part of their regular diet and wipe their butt with their bare hand. . .
OS is threatened by immigrants because they work harder, have a higher i.q. and don’t act like an ape. He conflates people born in third world countries with new Americans because his self esteem has bottomed out. Attacking those going by him on the totem pole of success are his only target. In short, being a hater makes him feel worthwhile.
OS, when someone claims to have been “blamed” for some transgression they deny committing, that suggests they see themselves as a victim.
And we are not talking about any third world countries. We are talking about our very own USA and its capacity to help those in need and protect us from those who would commit serious crimes, such as violent crimes, dangerous misdemeanors, and most felonies.
To argue that we should refuse to assist an entire group of people, including innocent men, women and children seeking refuge and a path to safety and a better life for their children, on the grounds that some could engage in criminal behavior is evidence you think so little of our law enforcement that you fear they cannot deal with these criminals.
Rational folks know that there will always be criminals among us, regardless of where they were born, and that our dedicated law enforcement will adequately deal with the actual criminals without the necessity of harming or excluding most innocent people. For example, we haven’t excluded every innocent person from future attendance at schools, nightclubs, churches, nor country western concerts despite the slaughters committed by citizens of our Country.
Your claim to fear for me is inconsistent with your apparent efforts to cause me emotional distress. You have demanded that I leave my home in SD in past threads because of my views opposing the dehumanization of our fellow human beings. You have repeatedly called me stupid, as well as a myriad of other derogatory names. Such behavior on your part is inconsistent with any possible concern or fear for my safety or well being. Instead it evidences a failed attempt to marginalize and demean me (as well as many other posters on this blog).
I would like to assist you to overcome your fear of refugees and immigrants and have tried to accomplish this by citing studies and facts that contradict the idea that refugees and immigrants harm us. Perhaps some day you might realize that they pose no danger to you, me or any of us that is greater than our own citizens pose to us, but until then I will do my best to post factually accurate information documenting the irrationality of such fears. The last word in this “debate” is yours.
Hear, hear BCB …
10 p.m. Tuesday: Yarrabee Farms owners say in a statement they employed Rivera and that he “was vetted through the government’s E-Verify system,” conveying
9:27 a.m. Wednesday: Rivera’s attorney, Allan M. Richards says in a court motion that Rivera is here legally and that Craig Lang, an owner of Yarrabee Farms, can vouch for that.
More on Rivera:
What we know about Mollie Tibbetts’ accused killer
Man charged in Tibbetts’ death was working in Iowa legally, lawyer says. Employer says no
Cristhian Rivera death ‘hadn’t come across (investigators’) radar’ until Monday
Rivera worked at a farm owned by a prominent Iowa Republican family
Craig, center, and his son Dane Lang, left, of Yarrabee Farms walk out of their home to speak to the press on their farm on Wednesday, Aug. 22, 2018 in Brooklyn. Cristhian Rivera, a former employee at the farm has been charged with the murder of Mollie Tibbetts. Brian Powers/The Register
Midday Wednesday: A Register story on Richard’s motion goes viral, sparking incendiary debate on political websites.
2:45 p.m. Wednesday: Yarrabee Farms holds a news conference where owners backtrack and say they did not use the E-Verify system. Rivera used fake documents and a false name to gain employment, the farm owners claim. “What we learned within the last 24 hours is that our employee was not who he said he was,” Dane Lang said.
Looks like the Lang’s are bracing for a wrongful death lawsuit. Remember O.J. got off on the murder charge but was found guilty in civil court. The Ying and the Yang of the Lang covering their arse’s. They sound more like trump every time they speak.
bcb, not only does one have to put up with OldSnohomish and his illegal immigrants, now there is this logic from Drumpf’s favorite Negroes- https://crooksandliars.com/2018/08/fox-grifters-diamond-silk-claim-millions
Millions of thousands have been killed by illegal immigrants. Probably just since Drumpf took office.
mfi, Comrade Old Soviet/diamond/silk. the new three amigos, all schooled in the Moscow practice on bullpuckey
Their numbers are shaky but many, many real Americans (Indians) were killed by illegal European immigrants.
I guess I have been blocked.
It’s too bad Teresa Ann Robbins’s prose has been mostly ignored. She wrote good advice about the the proper role of civil discourse in democracy. Her essay deserves far more discussion than OS’s angry agenda of distraction, division, and exclusion.