…and Immigrants Promote Marriage!
Maybe the Farm Bureau is backing the Trump Tax because they are a bunch of corporate tools. Or maybe they’re willing to roll over on a tax bill that will be bad for rural America because they just want to get tax reform out of the way so they can turn Congress’s attention back to their bigger, long-standing priority—loosening our immigration rules so Big Ag can fill its jobs and milk its cows:
As part of a national campaign to raise the conversation about immigration reform, Scott VanderWal, president of South Dakota Farm Bureau Federation, and Lynn Boadwine, a dairy producer at Boadwine Farms Inc., told reporters that they wanted to see changes to worker visa programs.
“We want the country and Congress to start the discussion,” Boadwine said.
Boadwine said his business began using immigrant labor about two decades ago. And while having that option has helped him keep his business up and running, he worries lawmakers could act to restrict worker visas, dealing him and others a significant challenge.
“Right now I’ve been able to fill the positions, but I keep thinking, ‘what about the future?'” he said. “That could cause a crushing blow to our industry” [Dana Ferguson, “South Dakota Ag Advocates Call on Congress to Reform Work Visa Program,” that Sioux Falls paper, 2017.12.07].
Farm Bureau is speaking up again about immigration reform in conjunction with “iMarch for Immigration,” a new nationwide campaign from New American Economy, a group whose research has appeared on this blog before in our discussion of the significant extent to which South Dakota depends on and benefits from immigrant labor. New American Economy wants comprehensive immigration reform, starting with DACA:
“There’s a growing chorus with a simple message for Congress – step up and fix our broken immigration system, starting with a fix for Dreamers,” said John Feinblatt, President of New American Economy. “Today, in DC and across the country, you’ll hear from leaders of every political stripe who agree it’s not only the right thing, but also the economically smart thing for America to do.”
“Dreamers are our doctors, teachers, family members, and friends — they are lifting up our communities and our economy,” said Maria Teresa Kumar, President and CEO of Voto Latino. “They are the immigrants the Administration claims it wants: they speak English, have passed extensive background checks, and contribute billions to the economy. Congress must act before the holidays to provide Dreamers with the permanent legislative solution they deserve” [New American Economy, press release, 2017.12.07].
New American Economy and the Farm Bureau may have trouble getting through to my anti-immigration neighbors who think immigration is all a big leftist plot to take away their red baseball caps. Thus, one of the best arguments New American Economy and the Farm Bureau can make for allowing more immigrants to come to South Dakota aligns with the simple, moderate, non-partisan economic argument we’ve heard from our Chambers of Commerce: immigrants drive economic growth. Consider this report from the probably not leftist George W. Bush Institute, which finds that immigrants certainly don’t hurt the local economy:
A study by the Fiscal Policy Institute finds that for the period of 1990 to 2006 among America’s 25 largest metropolitan areas, the cities that experienced the largest percentage point increases in the immigrant share of their respective labor forces were largely the same cities that had the fastest-growing economies. Dallas, Phoenix, Houston, and Atlanta had the largest growth in the immigrant share of the labor force and also all enjoyed among the strongest economic growth of major American cities. Meanwhile, cities like Detroit, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh saw very little immigration between 1990 and 2006, and had some of the slowest economic growth rates among major American cities.
Extending this analysis for the period 2006 to 2015 shows a similar trend. The 10 cities that experienced the largest percentage increase in the immigrant share of the labor force saw their collective per capita GDP increase by just over 4 percent during these years. Meanwhile, as a group, the 10 cities with the smallest percentage increase in the immigrant share of the labor force had slightly negative per capita GDP growth.
The data points do not prove that immigrants create economic growth. After all, it could be the case that economic growth attracts immigrants to these cities in the first place. Even so, the data suggest immigrants do not deter economic growth. Furthermore, it is a good thing if immigrants are moving to booming areas. Native-born Americans are not a highly mobile labor force, so immigrants help fill gaps in the labor market where they are needed [Matthew Denhart, America’s Advantage: A Handbook on Immigration and Economic Growth, Third Edition, George W. Bush Institute, 2017, p. 46].
And if economics make you ill and you’d rather argue family values…
Married couples, on average, are more productive and enjoy higher standards of living, higher incomes, and better health outcomes compared to single individuals.
Moreover, children who grow up in married-couple households share these benefits and also have improved educational outcomes and brighter futures as adults.
The academic literature suggests marriage is good for the economy, and it is notable that immigrants are more likely than natives to be married. In 2015, 58.7 percent of immigrants over the age of 15 were married, compared to 45.4 percent of natives. Furthermore, as is shown in the chart, 62.7 percent of immigrants lived in a household headed by a married couple in 2015, compared to 57.4 percent of native households.
Data also show that immigrants are less likely to be divorced: 11.1 percent of immigrants over the age of 15 reported being divorced or separated in 2015 compared to 13.5 percent of natives [Denhart, 2017, p. 52].
On immigration, the Farm Bureau and the George W. Bush Institute seem to be on the right track with New American Economy. Immigrants are good for our economy. They are good for marriage, if that trips your trigger. Immigrants are good for America.
Cory you know this is true as well as anybody: This is exactly why farm wages are so low. So long as these rich corporate farms are driving their new trucks and living in their big houses, being supported by liberal lobbyist such as yourself, wages for farm work will never rise.
Supporting Ag Work Visas suppresses the wages of real American citizens, basically stripping the food from your neighbors tables and preventing the American worker from earning enough to buy gifts for their kids this Christmas.
Immigrants in a community make another extremely valuable and important social contribution. Once a community’s xenophobes begin to actually meet and interact with immigrant families, including their kids, it becomes much more difficult to justify demonizating these men, women and children. It becomes more difficult to treat co-workers, neighbors, and your kid’s friends them as some sort of “other” that takes away benefits from less willing or less able “real Americans.”
Integration with immigrants breeds empathy and weakens the sickness of blind hate and fear or other human beings. Immigration is the one thing that has helped make America great. The more people that see and work with immigrants, the more people that appreciate these folks as fellow human beings, rather than as some comic book group of villains. Helping our friends and neighbors overcome their irrational fear of different people has to be one of the best consequences of encouraging immigration and creating a path to citizenship for all decent, hardworking immigrant families.
Oh, OldSarg, you know this is true as well as anybody: you’re wrong.
Don’t come trying to play the left-wing labor advocate just to win your debating point on agriculture. If you joined me on the anti-corporate line and stuck with in consistently, I’d give your statement some credence. But your specious word games leave with no credence on this issue or any other.
If you really want to advocate for a higher minimum wage, higher wages in general, and strict enforcement of OSHA, EPA, and other regulations on corporate employers, then let’s rock on.
But in agriculture as in most of South Dakota’s industrial sectors, the problem is a combination of low wages and a lack of able-bodied workers. Boadwine could double wages on his dairy today, but he’d still have to import workers from somewhere. Pastor Sylvester told the same story yesterday about a local construction contractor: whatever that contractor is paying, he can’t find enough sober, committed workers in the local labor pool.
To that point:
And you’re eating the same cheap groceries I am, so don’t pretend to some economic or moral superiority. You don’t give a rip beyond your cheap grocery bill and your cheap shots.
So don’t come in here with your usual evidence-less assertions thinking you’re going to win the debate by asserting a point about which you don’t care, which you won’t apply consistently to other discussions, and which fails to grasp the complete economic picture.
Doesn’t work Cory. You know the truth. So long as the farmer can hire cheap labor they will not pay more for labor. To argue with that is not rational. Your support for helping the rich farmers line their pockets implies you are either 1) being paid to support the corporate farms or 2) you are not rational. Which is it?
Stop asserting truth, OS. Offer evidence. I offered evidence in my original post and in my comment response, so I’m two up on you. Try to keep up.
Immigration is good for the economy. Try to prove otherwise.
The people for the wall want them to keep coming.
OS are you saying the ag producers across the country are all liars? The have offered higher wages and still can’t get enough workers. Farming is hard labor wither it’s CAFO or crops. I know some are paying in the $15-20 dollars an hour an hour plus benefits and still have few “American ” takers.
It’s really not a problem as long as you don’t mind paying higher prices at the store for more imported foods. I seem to recall the USDA recently allowed chickens to be sent to China for processing and returned to the US for sale. I wonder how many jobs that cost us?
Some orange haired mangled apricot in the White House recently petitioned the government to allow him to hire more hated immigrants to work his golf courses because them dastardly whiteys would not. Crow with a side of ketchup. Yum yum, dumb dumb.
Cory it is beyond simple evidence. It is common sense. If you can hire the same person for $7/hr as opposed to $8/hr would you do it? Look around our own state in different lines of work. We had a large hail storm here in Rapid earlier this year. Lots of roofs being replaced. Initially the local roofing companies had the jobs. Within a few short weeks those crews were replaced companies from other places manned with foreign workers. I saw them with my own eyes. Roofing companies from around the nation came into town. Their crews were not locals and unless folks from Chicago all of a sudden started speaking Spanish those crews were not from the United States. . . You can lie to yourself all day long, quote studies by the Chamber of Commerce but it doesn’t change the truth. Immigrants that are willing to work for less money take the jobs of Americans who demand higher wages. Those higher wages are set by our government. Those is called a facts. They are reality. It is real.
OldSarg, here is how one can draw an incorrect conclusion from one’s “common sense.”
Perhaps your “common sense” overlooked the fact that many American citizens are bilingual and speak Spanish?
“Spanish is the second most spoken language in the United States of America.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language_in_the_United_States
Oh, that’s it genius!!!! “Perhaps your “common sense” overlooked the fact that many American citizens are bilingual and speak Spanish?”
What the hell is wrong with you mentally? Seriously, What the hell is wrong with you?
OS, You get that anywhere in the USA. Some team up with local roofing contractors as they have more work than they can handle. Others get the required SD permits and licenses and stay until the work runs out. The same happens with all construction trades when a disaster happens.
I use a local contractor that has been in the business for decades. He only keeps the number of crews that he can use full time. He works with out of state contractors when the need arises. Other local contractors will tell you that it is extremely difficult to find qualified workers locally. I know contractors that have passed up work because they can’t even find dependable laborers that will work more than a day or two and quit.
Wages? Fast food is paying 10 dollars an hour and up. Laborers for construction get paid a higher wage but the work is harder. Look around RC and see how many “Help Wanted” signs are out there.
Spanish speaking is not a big deal to me. I used to speak passable German when I was living in Germany but spoke English most of the time as I was most comfortable with it. Some of our elder South Dakota folks will tell you of parents and grandparents that spoke the language of the old country and never had a good command of English. Speaking a foreign language does make one an illegal immigrant.
WR “Spanish speaking is not a big deal to me” that’s fine but that is not the point.
The point is that those are jobs that “if” the prevailing wage was high enough American workers would take the jobs but since immigrants are willing to work for less they are getting the jobs. Therefore immigrants are taking jobs and suppressing wages. Which was my point from the beginning.
Common sense , which OldTroll lacks immensely, tells you undocumented workers are forced to accept lower wages or run the risk of being blackmailed and sent back to where they can’t earn a living.
Look at South Mississippi where the people voted to pay beginning workers the same minimum wage as everyone else, but OldTroll’s buds decided they knew better and cut beginning worker’s pay by a dollar per.
Even Henry Ford understood wage suppression is not good for the economy/country as a whole. As part of the tunnel vision of corporate profit, wage suppression (and automation) is seen as an immediate bump to profits for THAT corporation, but not to the well-being of the national economy. Where is the line where we as a society say that there is more to corporate responsibility than the exploitation of resources (environmental, labor, consumers . . . ).
Old Sarge – when you speak of employers paying less in wages (for immigrant workers), do you factor in how many working poor have an additional cost in public support because of those low wages? I do not agree that higher wage expectation is because of government decree: higher wages are an expectation of the workers. How is it worse to have a set living wage that is an ACTUAL living wage than to have to endorse the degradation of wages but then need to provide government social assistance to create a decent living condition for workers? Nevermind the whole issue of elimination of pensions and other fringe benefits once provided with employment.
The ruin of this country has been the worship at the altar of corporate profit (and the wealth inequity that has resulted from it).
OldSarg, you are missing the point. I know, big surprise. The point is immigrant labor is necessary to fill certain entry level jobs because the existing labor force for the most part is not willing to do these manual labor jobs even at high wages. The immigrants are taking jobs that would never exist if, as you imply, we just raise the wages until their is enough incentive for computer programmers to go milk cows for $50 an hour. The jobs would be priced out of existence.
As an example, let’s say a dairy farmer can pay $15 an hour to immigrant labor to milk cows. Most non-immigrants in the US don’t want to milk cows even for $20 an hour. But somewhere between $15 and $20 an hour in labor costs, it is cheaper to install robotic milkers at $250,000 per machine. If you insisted that we don’t need immigrant labor in the dairy industry, the result would not be very many more non-immigrants working on dairy farms. The result would be more automation and less jobs on dairy farms.
The other thing to keep in mind is that these economic decisions are not made in a vacuum. Virtually all industries now must compete against global competition. An American industry that cannot access immigrant labor could likely be at a competitive disadvantage to other countries that already have much much lower labor costs. The jobs here in America will cease to exist to the extent they cannot compete with the world. Then, we will have neither the jobs nor the immigrants nor the thriving economy that we all want.
Farm work is hard work. W R Old Guy puts out even a $15 – $20 an hour wage does not draw workers. Is a $30K – $40K annual salary a “good” wage? Is it a “big” wage? I feel anytime we have a wage discussion, it is without ever really dealing with the fundamental question of what a good wage is.
As coincidence would have it, yesterdays episode of This American Life addressed the exact criticism of OldSarg and Jeff Sessions. I did not get to hear the entire episode, but I heard that there is a grain of truth in the Sarg/Sessions argument. Although, they want to use the grain of truth like a grain of sand to build a sand castle of discrimination against immigrants. What Sarg and Sessions ignore is that immigration is a very positive force for economic growth. One only has to examine the demographics of the Japanese economy and social structure to realize what limited immigration will mean to a developed economy in the coming decades as the population ages, people live longer in retirement and birth rates fall.
The grain of truth of Sarg and Sessions (let’s just call them “the SS” for no particular reason) is that in some locations inundated by immigrant labor, there could be up to a 7% reduction in wages for the bottom 10% of workers without a high school diploma. The margin of error for the study was so wide that the reduction could have been much smaller. The maximum reduction in wages in the study at 7% was $23 per week or roughly $1,200 per year. Again, that was the maximum effect and it could have been much smaller since the margin of error of the study was large.
Looking at the big picture for the US economy, for 90% of Americans, immigration was a positive economic driver that helped their economic standing. It was the 10% of Americans at the bottom without a high school diploma that can be effected by localized immigrant labor availability.
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/632/our-town
The conclusions that “the SS” want to draw from this are entirely off base. We shouldn’t stifle immigration so that 90% of Americans are worse off and our economy is harmed. What we should do is help the 10% who do not have a high school diploma. Our goal should not be to only raise their wages by $23 per week. Our goal should be to advance their wages by hundreds of dollars per week and thousands of dollars per year. Our goal should be to help them advance their skill-set through job training and education. They should have every opportunity to get their GED and advance up the ranks with technical and trade-based education programs, at a minimum. Government needs to play a strong role in these efforts and that means money invested in programs to help the bottom 10%.
What is interesting to me is that “the SS” feigns interest to help the 10% by limiting immigration, but is not in favor of government programs and assistance in the areas of job training and education or the social safety nets. It seems quite obvious that “the SS” merely uses the plight of the working poor as an excuse to flog immigrants. Otherwise, why does the SS rhetoric end with anti-immigration and doesn’t extend to investments in job training, education, child care, healthcare as well as tax policy that would favor the bottom 10%.
My only point is immigrate labor suppresses the wages of American workers. That is a fact. You can argue around the facts all you like, you can justify it for a milk producer, you can even claim somehow it makes Americans more aware of the value of immigrants but it does not change the fact that immigrant labor suppresses the wages of American workers. Most of you are on a fixed income and live your pathetic lives mooching off the toil of others so it makes no difference to you if it is wages taken from your neighbors or your own children. You got yours so you are satisfied. I on the other hand want the best for my fellow citizens.
“beyond simple evidence” is the dodge of someone too lazy or too committed to ideology and barroom shouting to step out of his prejudices and see if empirical data supports his preconception of reality.
Yes, the rest of us can argue facts all we like. You, OldSarg, have yet to try.
Academic research finds immigrants have little long run effect on Americans’ wages. They do not compete for the same jobs and put minimal downward pressure on natives’ wages. Immigration also has a net positive effect on combined federal, state, and local budgets.
You can read about it here, from the school (Wharton) that President Trump wrongly claims to have graduated from.
~ PS … Why the anger, OS? What does using words like pathetic, mooching etc. add to your arguments? Geez … if defending your positions makes you angry and insulting, maybe that’s your subconscious telling you you’re off base and you should rethink them. Those are wrong emotions to feel when you’re dealing with personal issues of political fundamentals.
http://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy
http://www.epi.org/publication/bp255/
https://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/sites/artcarden/2015/08/28/how-do-illegal-immigrants-affect-american-workers-the-answer-might-surprise-you/&refURL=https://us.search.yahoo.com/&referrer=https://us.search.yahoo.com/
These guys say OldSssss theory is all wet when it comes to immigrants suppressing wages.
Oh guys, we are being too hard on OldSarg. He can’t help it. He is ruled by his emotions. Logic, evidence and rational conclusions are not his strong suit. He can’t and won’t argue facts. Bluster is the only thing he knows and the only game he plays.
I’m eye rolling a lot.
Eye-rolling is yet another personal insult used in place evidence. You’re also losing a lot.
Give it up Cory. You can’t argue against logical common sense by attacking me. It makes you look silly.
You know as well as I do immigrant labor is displacing American workers because they are cheaper. Why do you think corporations move to Mexico?
I’m not attacking you. You wish I were, because you can’t win on evidence or logic. Instead, I’m pointing out the failure of your evidenceless, irrelevant argument.
So, Old Sarg, you are saying that gazillions of Americans are waiting in line – pounding on the doors of big AG, to work in the corporate factory farming world? To work in the fields, more than 12 hours a day, bent over and harvesting fruits and vegetables? To work in that world, and live multiple families at a time in a worn out trailer home or camper? That gazillions of Americans are lining up and angry that they can’t get those types of jobs or live that way for minimum wage? (btw – AG aren’t paying immigrants minimum wage – THAT’s why they hire immigrants!) And you are saying that gazillions of Americans are lining up to work as maids in Americans homes? that these immigrants, bullied and elbowed Americans out of those jobs? REALLY? That immigrants FORCED employers to pay them pittance wages?
Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. This isn’t funny, in a funny way at all. It is just laughable.
You are “supporting” your comments based on? Well, nothing. Nothing except for prejudices and bias that you have. Throwing out the Archie Bunker type comments gets nothing resolved and adds nothing to a debate. Ooops, wrong word. That’s not a debate. It is wing-nuttery at its best. Still waiting for the evidence you will provide that will show that immigrants are displacing American workers. Jobs moving to Mexico?? Sigh, because the corporate overlords know that they can pay less to workers there than here – which pumps up their bottom line and further lines their pockets. Come on, this math isn’t hard.
OS – Your background gave you little knowledge of immigrant labor. Mine gave me extended knowledge of how immigrant labor works. You have hearsay. I have empirical evidence and personal data. I’m going to use green card Mexicans as the example. In the restaurant we hired Mexicans for the exact same salary as we hired Americans. We hired Mexicans because Mexicans were faster, more conscientious, never missed work, always had a smile on their face and were more willing to do new tasks without complaining than Americans. In fact, the most senior Mexican chef made damn sure that no American was making more than an immigrant for doing the same job!!
Contractors hire green card Mexican carpenters at the exact same salary they pay American carpenters because green card Mexican carpenters are faster, more conscientious, never miss work and are more willing to do new tasks without complaining than American carpenters.
I presented you with facts from Wharton. Don’t you believe Wharton, OS? IMMIGRANTS MAKE AMERICA GREAT … ALWAYS HAVE!!