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Antifa Not an Organization, Not Terrorists, Just Good Americans

Antifa? What antifa?

“To explain a little: it’s like calling bird-watching an organization,” tweeted Mark Bray, author of “Antifa: The Antifascist Handbook.“ “Yes, there are bird-watching organizations as there are Antifa organizations, but neither bird-watching nor antifa is an organization” [Betsy Woodruff Swan, “Trump Says He’s Naming Antifa a ‘Terrorist Organization.’ Can He Do That?Politico, 2020.05.31].

When Donald Trump shouts about antifa, he’s invoking a non-existent bogeyman to misportray the impulse we should all feel deep in our American bones to resist his fascism:

American AntifascistOn Sunday, Donald Trump announced via Twitter that the United States government would soon be classifying “ANTIFA” as a terrorist group, despite the fact that antifa (no caps lock) doesn’t exist, at least not in the way that the President always talks about it.

Per It’s Going Down, antifa, short for antifascist, is neither an organization nor a web of shadowy instigators but “a political stance against far-right violence, white supremacy, and fascism.” If you hate far-right violence, white supremacy, and fascism, then guess what, babe? You’re antifa! And if you oppose antifa—like, to the point of, say, calling antifascists a bunch of terrorists—then that must mean you’re a fascist. And if you’re a fascist, um… Go f[…] yourself? It’s really that simple [Harron Walker, “Area Fascist Still Doesn’t Know What Antifa Is,” Jezebel, 2020.05.31].

I hate far-right violence, white supremacy, fascism, and bullies in general. That doesn’t make me a member of a terrorist organization. That makes me an American, and a darn sight better American than Donald Trump and anyone flying his vulgar fascist flag.

*     *     *

According to data gathered by New America, a research institution, since 9/11 right-wing terrorists in the United States have killed 110 people for political reasons, while Antifa supporters have killed exactly no one for political reasons. Meanwhile, those motivated by black nationalist ideology have killed 12 people.

In other words, the threat posed by lethal right-wing terrorists since the 9/11 attacks is almost 10 times greater than that posed by leftist terrorists [Peter Bergen, “Trump’s Crazy Designation of Antifa as Terrorist Organization,” CNN, 2020.06.01].


  1. mike from iowa 2020-06-01

    From Rawstory today:

    Protesters in Washington, D.C. were captured on video handing over an agitator to police, while other agitators in paintball tactical gear appeared to try and start fights with police.

    Former FBI assistant director of counterintelligence, Frank Figliuzzi, revealed that his former colleagues and law enforcement he knows recognize that far-right agitators are attempting to start significant conflicts between police and protesters.

    There is a minimal presence of Antifa, but a far more disturbing presence of right-wing race-based hate groups, such as the Boogaloo Boys who think there will be a race-based civil war coming,” he said on MSNBC.

    Looks like Antifa is doing the cop’s work for them.

  2. Ryan 2020-06-01

    I hate white supremacy! I hate facism! But…I hate violence from all political persuasions. Can I still be in the club? Or do I have to play identity politics in hating violence, too?

  3. jerry 2020-06-01

    Antifa just needs to keep the same ideals but re-brand as the proud boys. After all, when the Boeing 737 Max’s were falling out of the sky, trump said to keep the same planes but to call them something else. Monkey see monkey do.

  4. leslie 2020-06-01

    The “club” consists of people of good conscience who knew in November 2016 or know now, the horrible mistake the country made electing Donald Trump to the position of great, great power and trust that he abuses with every thought. The slowly dawning realization that right wing politics has evolved over decades to hold sacred, those immoral concepts that honor property and wealth-“winning”- in the parlance of the day, over the welfare of ordinary, little people of good conscience, is beneath every ill you can read about every day in the news. Gypsum mine underneath housing development. Guess what? This now requires immediate action. This club has been forced to standup, unite, organize, volunteer, take time away from family and work, and RESIST. Did you know Eileene Chou, director of Department of Transportation, wife of Mitch McConnell, was being investigated for managing her office to favor the leader of the Senate’s reelection, so that inspector general was relieved, fired, with no notice, on a late Friday news cycle? Mitch is the second most powerful person in the world. Power corrupts absolutely. He is worse than Putin. Thune is Mitch’s protege’. People of good conscience who have busy lives, have to stand up to thousands of these abuses of our system of democracy, or the right wing “terrorists” Trump represents, will clean your clock. These bastards will take every penny you are due and a abuse every right that protects your four year old. We, the resisters are who the right wing is trying to label Antifa, so they can shoot us down in the streets. Quit wringing your hands and join the club. I know your standard response is “did you just make that up?”

  5. Donald Pay 2020-06-01

    Trump, never a student of anything, let alone domestic terrorism, is mistaking Antifa for Anarchists. He’s getting his idea of “antifa” from the wacky right media. Poor Donald Trump and his extreme right buddies need to watch Sesame Street. Both begin with the letter “A,” but these two things are not the same.

    Now Anarchists are pretty out there. Whether they are terrorists is a matter that I’m not going to to quibble much about. They do use violent tactics to intimidate, but they don’t have a lot in the way of a political agenda to push forward or to oppose. They just smash things.

    You have correctly describe antifa. Not a group, Not organized. Not violent, though I suppose, a few who identify as antifa might be violent.

    Just to be clear. In Madison, WI, we had news coverage of a woman kicking out two windows. She has been identified as a known racist and Trump supporter. Reportedly she was arrested. She is the daughter of a cop. Now does that make Trump supporters and cops “domestic terrorists?”

  6. Greg Deplorable 2020-06-01

    Democrats:Everyone stay inside the corona virus is going to kill you dont listen to trump its very bad.

    Also Democrats: Go outside in large groups and riot forget about corona virus its not that bad. We will bail you out of jail.

  7. Donald Pay 2020-06-01

    Greg, I agree about the corona virus threat. We stayed away from the peaceful demonstration precisely because of that. Democrats are not encouraging these protests.

    Just to be clear, Mr. Deplorable, some of the damage being done in my town by rioters, as I stated above, has been the result of extreme right white supremacist elements of Trump’s supporters. Most Democrats, as most Republicans, would prefer to be isolated from those social deviants.

  8. Ryan 2020-06-01

    leslie, i am in the club of people who know that trump being the president is a disaster. But that isn’t what I was asking. I was referring specifically to the element of “hating far-right violence” mentioned repeatedly in this post. I hate violence from the far right, the moderate right, the moderate left, AND the far left. Is there a group I belong to, since everyone needs desperately to be put in groups? Or maybe the vast majority of americans hate violence regardless of the D or R beside somebody’s name…? Does it matter to the family of a murder victim which political party the killer affiliated with? Identity politics is making our country weaker than ever; we are unable to face adversity with any real strength or purpose because so many people sit around and point fingers just so they can feel good that they are on the right team, rather than actually trying to understand the causes of problems and coming up with real-world solutions to the problems. But that’s classic americana – emotional responses rather than rational.

    Making everything a right-versus-left battle is more divisive and causes more damage than the underlying problems people are pretending to try to solve. Most democrats and most republicans think that killing innocent people is wrong. Most democrats and most republicans think that police abusing their authority is wrong. The problem is not the right. The problem is not the left. The problem is bad behavior by individuals. Most people are good, even if you disagree with their political theory on income taxation or federal preemption of state authority. And frankly, most people are just told what political party they belong to; most don’t have a clue of the actual platform of their own party – and that applies across the board. Maybe your parents just tell you what party you are, or your college, or your clergy, or joe biden tells you (haha), but most people are clueless as to the details. One of my favorite things is watching youtube videos of people being asked straightforward questions about state and federal policies when they either have no opinion or they have an opinion that appears to be directly contrary to what their political party mouthpieces say. So instead of going through the difficult work of forming an opinion about a serious and complex issue, we mostly do the easy thing and say that we agree with the group we think we belong to, even if we have no idea what that group’s position really is. I have been guilty of this plenty of times myself, so I am not preaching – I am suggesting this is a common concern and we should all care about the consequences of blindly following any movement.

    Can we try this exercise? If anybody agrees with me, please say so. If you disagree with me, let’s discuss: I detest violence against innocent people regardless of the political affiliation of offender or victim; I believe most democrats are decent human beings; I believe most republicans are decent human beings; I believe we are more alike than different; I believe we will solve more problems together as one nation than separately as two political “sides”.

  9. jerry 2020-06-01

    June 6, 1944, Antifa troopers landed in Normandy…to defeat fascism. Who would’ve thunk it that those Antifa would now be considered terrorists by the guy in the bunker…oh yeah, the other dude in a bunker they were fighting…History…it’s a real tough game.

  10. Greg Deplorable 2020-06-01

    Liberals, look upon the fruits of your deeds.

    The culmination of three+ years of your hysterical antics and screeds.

  11. mike from iowa 2020-06-01

    Greg got a twofer today…..he is off his rocker and his meds.

  12. mike from iowa 2020-06-01

    Ryan, Or do I have to play identity politics in hating violence, too?

    Are you seriously looking for an answer or is this a question you wait until it gets answered then you claim it has no answer, like last week?

    I believe it was yesterday, Jason tried his best to claim both sides do it and only had one example of Dem Amy Klobuchar not prosecuting a case against a murder suspect. That is not proof both sides do it and Klobuchar explained her position eloquently and adequately.

  13. Ryan 2020-06-01

    mike, last week I admitted at the beginning that the question was flawed. I was asking it to prove the exact point I proved – that there is no clear line when government intervention is warranted for a public health issue.

    But as for this question, I really am curious what your enlightened opinion is. Although, CNN hasn’t yet told you what to think about me specifically, so just do your best on your own. Do I have to hate violence just from the far right, or can I hate violence irrespective of political affiliation? Why would we want to narrow the goal to standing up against violence from such a specific and small group? I don’t get the political polarization for something so obviously and generally detestable like violence against innocent people. It would be like anti-abortion folks saying they hate abortions performed on 21 year olds rather than just saying they hate abortions. It just seems disingenuous to be that unnecessarily specific; it makes one think that violence by the left is acceptable to this group that isn’t a group.

  14. jerry 2020-06-01

    Greg Deplorable, look into your fruit of your looms and see the skid marks of your failed governmental bunker boy, trump. 3 and a half years of failure at every turn. Don’t have to go far from your keyboards to see it either. trump and your ilk have done nothing for this country but destroy it. Trade war, only success is killing US farmers. Tariffs, only success is killing farmers. Economy only success is 41 million out of work so there is no payroll tax to pay. The only success has been in the funeral home business, 150,000 dead Americans due to trump and your dithering failures.

  15. grudznick 2020-06-01

    Mr. Pay, the alt-fringe-left are the rabble rousers in Sioux Falls.

  16. Cory Allen Heidelberger Post author | 2020-06-01

    Ryan, shut up about identity politics. You use that too often as a false flag to miss the point.

    Antifa does not exist as an organization. Trump is raising a straw man to justify more fascist and racist action.

  17. Cory Allen Heidelberger Post author | 2020-06-01

    Anarchists are dipsticks, just like the Kristi Noem, Travis Schaunaman, and other right-wing nut jobs who think everything would be better without government. The only difference is that the anarchists really want to destroy government and everything else, while Noem, Schaunaman, and their ilk only want government to step aside when they are handing favors to their cronies and doing nasty things to raise their own profit margins.

  18. Cory Allen Heidelberger Post author | 2020-06-01

    Straw-man up, Greg!

    I didn’t say anyone should go out in large crowds and risk infecting other people with coronavirus. I said antifa does not exist as an organization that Donald Trump can legally or constitutionally designate as a domestic terrorist group.

    Why is it so hard for some people to talk about the uncomfortable facts I raise? Why, Greg, can’t you simply say, “Yup, Trump is a dangerous idiot”?

  19. Cory Allen Heidelberger Post author | 2020-06-01

    And if anything, the violence and discord you see, Greg, is the culmination of three years of the leadership and moral example of Trump in the White House. Trump was supposed to make America “great” “again.” America as great. It is now unraveling thanks to Trump and to people like you who are unwilling to own the damage they have by making excuses for an incompetent tyrant in the White House.

    Antifa does not exist. The Klan does.

    Antifa is not a bunch of killers. White supremacists are. See the ending quite in the original post.

  20. Greg Deplorable 2020-06-01

    Whenever the lefties want something they take to the streets. Sometimes wearing masks, other times vagina hats. They bring their crow bars, rocks and fire to show the rest of us how enlightened they are in their ideals. While us plebes stay working, following the rules, paying taxes that can fund their limitless folly.

  21. Alex 2020-06-01

    Like when people in masks stormed the capitol buildings with guns Greg?

  22. Debbo 2020-06-01

    North Minneapolis is where my former pastor and her family live. It’s also the most densely Black populated part of the metro. It was attacked last night. This is what my white pastor and her neighbors experienced last night:

    They found gas cans stashed in the bushes in various places. They saw white scumacysts. Neighbors were guarding businesses at 44th and Penn, but scumacysts snuck around the back and threw something on the roof. Very quickly the building was engulfed in flames. 4 Black owned businesses were destroyed. This is all miles and miles away from any protests.

    Rev. Jane McBride says,

    What I am waking up to this morning is that we are, quite literally, in the middle of a war. I mean that in two different ways.

    First, we are at war with an armed, organized group of white nationalists, with an explicit agenda of racialized hate and terror. Nationwide, the events around George Floyd’s death gave them the perfect opening to further their goal of inciting a race war. Here in Minneapolis, it seems like their strategy is to get even “liberal” white people so scared and angry and exhausted that we will turn against our black and brown neighbors.

    I will not take up weapons or use violence to resist those who are harming our community in this way. I will; however, use every resource I have available– my body and my money; the “pulpit” of social media and the pulpit of my church– to stand firmly and stubbornly in their way. I will not fall for their tactics, and I will help others remain grounded and strong.

    We are in a war of another kind as well. This is a war for our souls, a war that rages all around us, and also within each of us.

    The police, fire department, and national guard do not have the capacity to make our community safe and whole. The territory is enormous and they cannot be everywhere. But that’s not the real problem. Even if we had thousands more troops, their ability to support the flourishing of our community is deeply compromised by white supremacy.

    I don’t necessarily mean that the authorities are in league with white supremacist organizations (though I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them are). What I mean by white supremacy is a system of white dominance that is the very air we breathe. I am not pointing fingers here. I, too, am entangled in that system. I am privileged by it. My judgement is compromised by it. I am as responsible as any other white person for the suffocating knee on the neck of my black and brown neighbors. I know that it is my life’s work, to fight this evil, and that the first battleground is within myself.

    My own complicity in the problem does not keep me from seeing; however, that a militarized police force really has no role in making our community safe and whole. Their escalating, un-empathetic response to this crisis continues to make that clear.

    Here’s what I said in my sermon yesterday: “We can only achieve true public safety by building an entirely new institution. Not because there aren’t good cops.
    We have to stop thinking that good people can’t be complicit in the system of white supremacy, because we are. The system of policing was birthed to protect the property rights of slave owners and it just continues find new ways to reinvent and repeat this dynamic of dehumanization and oppression.”

    I am sure that what I reporting here will upset some of my loved ones, and cause you to fear for our safety. I believe that even in the midst of all this, my white skin continues to protect me. The likelihood of Jen or myself getting hurt is low. We do not feel personally threatened. We are being careful. We are not out protesting very much. We do what we can but taking care of our kids is our first responsibility, and that often means staying off the streets and finding another way to speak out. All the same, we know that our neighbors are in danger. We are not truly safe until everyone is safe. And we are morally obligated to step up and take calculated risks when it seems our presence will make a difference in this fight.

  23. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Hahah – I use identity politics too often as a false flag!? That doesn’t even make sense. How is it a false flag in any way to say that violence is wrong regardless of the political leaning of the violent person? I am saying people should be judged for their actions not for the groups they belong to, and I have to shut up? Hahaha what an elite level debate tactic! “I can’t articulate a defense to your perfectly valid point, so shut up!”

    if antifa doesn’t exist as an organization, who runs their twitter!? and who made up the “definition” of antifa, which apparently – according to this blog – includes the element of hating violence from one particular political group but not other political groups…? If a person said something super dumb like “I don’t like it when democrats abuse their children,” I hope most people would say something like “NOBODY SHOULD ABUSE CHILDREN!” rather than say something like “YEAH DEMOCRATS HURTING KIDS IS WRONG!”

    How about this – the far right doesn’t exist as a group, either! Whoa man, one group that doesn’t exist is fighting another group that doesn’t exist! This is like, a real revolution in the making here! Just good ‘ol americans, all right: just blame something you don’t understand on somebody you don’t like for reasons you can’t explain. Ta-da, you are now solving the world’s problems. Haha

  24. Ryan 2020-06-01

    I think she is quoting her friend, but debbo’s post is full of some good stuff and some nonsense, but I think the most important piece is this: “I am as responsible as any other white person for the suffocating knee on the neck of my black and brown neighbors.”

    I couldn’t disagree with that more. If your friend really feels responsible for killing somebody, they should turn themselves in. This idea that every white person is responsible for somebody’s death is just absolutely ridiculous, racist, divisive, drivel. It’s pandering. It’s wrong. It’s gross. It’s backwards. Personal accountability is the only accountability that matters. Are all the black people in the country responsible for the bad behavior of some black people? Definitely not. Are all the native american folks responsible for the bad behavior of other people that share their skin tone or ancestry? Of course not. Only an absolute racist moron would even pretend to think that.

    This kind of blather does much more to divide that to unite. But, i get it, that’s what so many people want. If we are all responsible for our own behaviors, we don’t have a boogeyman to blame for everything.

  25. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Whoa, what a stereotype-errific comic that is. It makes as much sense as stealing a playstation to fight against bad cops.

  26. Debbo 2020-06-01

    This is about the white scumacyst attacks in North Minneapolis last night. No paywall.

  27. Greg Deplorable 2020-06-01

    According to the handbook, it really depends on the color of your flag. Red or black is national liberation movement, purple denotes feminist Antifa, pink is for queer Antifa.

    Despite the various shades of interpretation Antifa should not be understood as a single issue movement, instead a revolution of socialist policies. Most Antifa interviewed spent their time on other forms of politics (e.g. labor organizing, squatting, environmental activism, anti-war mobilization, or migrant solidarity).

    Wow, what a nifty difty little book about make believe groups that do not exist.

  28. Debbo 2020-06-01

    This is cops being a$$holes, just because they can. No paywall, but profanities.

  29. Debbo 2020-06-01

    They want to burn down the entire metro. No paywall.

  30. Debbo 2020-06-01

    Here are opportunities to help.

  31. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Greg, you are being too rational for this conversation. You’ll soon be told to shut up. Just go to cnn’s website and take your nonsense pills already. If you don’t, you are definitely part of the problem and guilty of being a something-phobe.

  32. Debbo 2020-06-01

    “But you know what’s not as easy?? You know what’s harder to shine a light on? The millions of people who are helping to protect those racist cops, and who are helping to insulate those in power, by staying ‘neutral.’ That right there is what’s exhausting to me. It’s all the people who think that — in 2020!! — they can still somehow just politely opt out of this $hit.

    “It’s to tell them that ‘seeing both sides’ means having blood on their hands – and ‘opting out’ means leaving innocent people to die.”

    Natasha Cloud, Washington Mystics

  33. Greg Deplorable 2020-06-01

    Ryan is right Debbo, turn yourself in. Put your money where your mouth is.

  34. jerry 2020-06-01

    July 9-10, 1943 Antifa troopers invade Sicily to rid that country of fascists. See, Antifa actually stands for Anti Fascists of which Ryan and Greg Deplorable are card carriers.

    Fascist description, or trumpism Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.” This is now being put upon us with great enthusiasm by trump and all who support him.

  35. jerry 2020-06-01

    Over 40 million without jobs, 150,000 Killed in Action and Anti Racists are what these incompetent a hole is tweeting about.

  36. Debbo 2020-06-01

    “Attorneys representing George Floyd’s family released findings of their own autopsy that said the man was asphyxiated while now-fired officer Derek Chauvin had his kneeing pinning Floyd’s neck. The results directly challenged preliminary results from the examination by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s Office that he was not strangled, but died from other factors, including being restrained.”

    The county autopsy was a joke.

  37. Ryan 2020-06-01

    jerry, great job copying and pasting the wiki definition for fascism. What a hero you are. Just because you don’t like me doesn’t make me a fascist. Or a trump supporter. Find anything I’ve ever said that supports either of those accusations you throw around without evidence (much like most of your opinions, apparently). You can try to lump me in a group of which I’m not a part because you are lazy in your hatred, but that doesn’t make you right.

    I don’t know who natasha cloud is, but she seems dumb as hell. This idea that if you don’t yell and scream your pretend outrage on youtube, or put it IN ALL CAPS on facebook, then you are somehow complicit in another person’s crime is crazy and stupid. What about all the depressed kids killing themselves? What about all the opioid addicted people shortening our national life expectancy? What about all the handgun violence in big cities? What about the hungry kids barely surviving between free meals at school? What about the child molesters and sex traffickers? There are lots of real, terrible, and sad things that humans do to each other. Why does natasha get to tell us which sad, terrible things we need to focus our outrage on? And are we supposed to destroy department stores every time there is injustice somewhere? Because we are going to run out of department stores if that’s the plan.

  38. Ryan 2020-06-01

    That terrance floyd fellow sounds smart: “Don’t tear up your town,” he said. “All of this is not necessary, because if his own family and blood is not doing it, then why are you? … Because when you’re finished and turn around and want to go buy something, you done tore it up. So now you messed up your own living arrangements. So just relax. Justice will be served.”

    Pretty much the opposite of that race-war-monger natasha’s position. Way to go terrance!

  39. jerry 2020-06-01

    Not a hero, just a realist that actually knows what a fascist is and what Anti-Fascist is. I suggest you try to inform yourself or you may think Proud Boy is looking at your manhood only to be giggled at by those in the locker room.

  40. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Wow, what a rollercoaster of a comment there. Are you talking about my genitals? If so, why? I understand that you quite enjoy talking about male reproductive organs, but do you have an opinion about reducing violence perpetrated by those of your own political affiliation, or do you just prefer that this country continues down this crazy path of defending disgusting behavior just because the disgusting actor votes for the correct party?

  41. Debbo 2020-06-01

    I haven’t had time to read all of this, post, links and comments, till now. I’ve been very busy, as have most Minnesotans in “the club” Leslie so eloquently described at 10:15. We’ve been offering moral, physical, financial and emotional support to the rest of the club as we oppose the fascists and scumacysts with every nonlethal means we can cobble together.

    Make no mistake, my dear DFP friends, they are waging real war against the club that Racist Ryan mocks. If you can find any way to help, including anything on the list I posted, please, please do so. My friends and hundreds of thousands of other members of the club are themselves, as well as their homes, in genuine danger.

  42. Debbo 2020-06-01

    There. I’ve finished reading all the comments thus far.

    Racist Ryan continues to show his true stripes. He’s nattering from the comfort of his home or work, hundreds of miles away, referring to the experiences of the people who are Right Here as “nonsense.” Criticizing Natasha Cloud, while he has no idea who she is or what she’s experienced and he’s apparently too lazy to Google her.

    Racist Ryan is thoroughly racist and doesn’t want to hear about racism. He does his best to diminish racism, to deny it, and to demean people who endure it and describe it. Racist Ryan is textbook.

    Greg is Deplorable. Thanks for clearing that up, son. I’m done with you boys, don’t have time for you. The other folks here in this club will continue to mop up the floor with you. You both deserve it.

  43. jerry 2020-06-01

    September 3-17 Antifa troopers invade Italy to liberate it from fascists. Anti Fascists allied antifa American and British and Canadian.

  44. jerry 2020-06-01

    Iran has this to say, yes, even Iran.

    “The Iranian foreign ministry has called on the United States to “stop violence” against its own people in the face of large protests sweeping the nation following the police killing in Minneapolis of another black man.

    “To the American people: the world has heard your outcry over the state of oppression. The world is standing with you,” foreign ministry spokesman Abbas Mousavi said at a news conference in Tehran on Monday.”

    The world is watching the thuggery of racism in America.

  45. Debbo 2020-06-01

    Here’s something Racist Ryan and Deplorable Greg would never do, but this woman and millions of others in the club are doing:

  46. jerry 2020-06-01

    From your most excellent link Debbo “For George Floyd, the ambulance was his hearse.” Wow, true that. Powerful

    ““George died because he needed a breath, a breath of air,” family attorney Ben Crump said during a news conference Monday afternoon. “For George Floyd, the ambulance was his hearse.”

  47. Ryan 2020-06-01

    debbo – first, give credit where credit is due. I called it the club first.

    Second, I don’t need to google some idiot just because you quoted her. I based my opinion about her on her own words, just as you base your opinion of me on my own words, although you often pretend I said things I didn’t. She sounds dumb as hell and I don’t need to read her full biography to form that opinion.

    Third, you calling me a racist is hilarious to me. Your favorite thing in the world seems to be dividing people up by race and then assigning stereotypical traits to those people based on those races. You are an obvious hypocrite, an obvious racist, and an opportunist of the worst variety. I encourage you to point out one single racist thing I have ever said on here. I could copy and paste dozens of your sexist and racist comments. Go back to your echo chamber and pat yourself on the back for your martyrdom some more.

    And do you know what “mopping the floor” with somebody even means? You are obviously too old to understand half of the youthful things you try to stutter at us on here, but come on. The only mopping going on around here is creepy jerry mopping up the floor in the computer room at the assisted living center after foaming at the mouth while talking about my anatomy.

  48. Eve Fisher 2020-06-01

    Of course Trump declared Antifa to be a terrorist group, while he’s always called the KKK, Neo-Nazis and other white supremacists and misogynists (remember the incels, who have killed quite a few) – they’re all “very good people”. He’s always made it obvious who can do violence and who can’t.

    The Michigan fake-militia out there with their weapons and body armor to get their haircuts while threatening the Governor’s life? Trump said, “The Governor of Michigan should give a little, and put out the fire. These are very good people but they are angry! They want their lives back again, safely! See them, talk to them, make a deal.” (Twitter, 5/1/20)

    The protesters? “These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won’t let that happen”
    MY NOTE: As if he cares.
    “Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts the shooting starts. Thank you!” 5/29/20

  49. Debbo 2020-06-01

    A young Black woman writes earnestly of her fears and anger. Racist Ryan dismisses her and calls her an idiot. ✔

  50. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Debbo, anybody who says “It’s to tell them that ‘seeing both sides’ means having blood on their hands…” seems dumb as hell to me. Has nothing to do with her immutable traits. It’s a judgment call based on her very own words. You’re the one constantly judging people by race.

  51. Debbo 2020-06-01

    Citizens have been fiercely protecting the Midtown Global Market from white scumacysts. The MGM is huge former Sears building. It now houses dozens of small businesses, nearly all minority owned, on the ground floor. There is also a medical clinic. The upper levels are low income housing.

    The market is absolutely delightful, full of color and music, delicious food and marvelous products from global cultures. Of course, all this makes it a prime target to the white scumacysts. People of all colors have been guarding the MGM because the entire city is very proud of it.

    BTW, POC know white scumacysts when they see them. Sign wearing is not necessary.

  52. Debbo 2020-06-01

    Give it up, Racist Ryan. You dig yourself in deeper every time you write.

    There is no equating murderous white scumacysts with protesters smashing windows.

    Just stay in your white bunker and pronounce smug and superior judgments on people in the fight. Racist Ryan.

  53. leslie 2020-06-01

    @11:19 “Identity politics is making our country weaker … real-world solutions to the problems.” Complete and utter bullsheit, every word.

    Republican drama politics.

    Republicans MUST push Trump out of office. We can NOT go 6 more months with this president.

    Ryan=rollercoaster toxic. Dusty=Immaturely toxic. Greg=Deplorably (brainwashed Foxaholic) toxic. Trump and entire administration, McConnell, RAGA, Republican Governor’s Assn, Federalist Society, Heritage Fdn, Kochs, Kristi, Thune, Rounds, MacCarthy, Cotton, Senate majority, stolen Scotus, EPA, Reclamation, Sec Defense, CDC, OSHA, MOHS, Immigration, Sec State=toxic, but some, only reparably compromised.

    Pick a side. Joe Biden and the entire Democratic slate are/will be good people of conscience. You don’t like politics? Understandable. But you have no other reasonable option. So learn. You are in the right place. The Republicans are a failed party.

    Quik qwiz: Will DOJ (sans Barr) have to chase down the Trump extended family after Nov 2020 in the Philippine Islands, Brazil or Russia (MOHS*)..any other bets?

    Miasmas of Horrible Stagnation*, Emily Bazalon(:

  54. o 2020-06-01

    Ryan: “I detest violence against innocent people regardless of the political affiliation of offender or victim.”

    Allow me a probative question: does your detest extend to the daily aggressions men and women of color face every day when denied loans, given harsher jail/prison sentences, denied access to education, harassed by police, or any of the other ways denied opportunity that white people enjoy in the US?

    Greg: “While us plebes stay working, following the rules . . .”

    It is easy to “follow the rules” when the rules are fundamentally stacked in your favor; it is much more difficult when those rules are stacked against your achievement. That is the nature of structural/institutional racism. It is the abundance of even the mundane: your FUBU shirt is not allowed — my Nike shirt is OK; your braids are not-professional — my straight hair is professional; I am not questioned for walking/jogging in a “nice” neighborhood — you are.

    This is a soul-searching (and heart-breaking) discussion of empathy and fairness. The public execution of a black man by a white officer should not have to be the trigger level event to have this discussion.

  55. Debbo 2020-06-01

    “I pledge allegiance the the relationships that lie ahead of me. I pledge allegiance to my brothers and my sisters and my community. I promise to fight for equity, justice and peace so that we may reach our goal of equality. I promise to be there when emotions are high and low. I promise to learn, strategize, encourage and teach between incidents of high tension. Most of all, I promise to love you as I love my own family, so we may have justice for all”. -Pledge of the 05.31.2020 Sioux Falls March for George Floyd given by Julian Beaudion ✊

  56. Debbo 2020-06-01

    White scumacysts appear to be targeting South Minneapolis for tonight. People are finding gas cans hidden in the neighborhood and seeing the scumacysts in their plateless SUVs and pickups.

  57. Debbo 2020-06-01

    Please read this with the sarcasm the author intended.

    And when we murder you, could you please protest peacefully?
    And when we choke your life away, please kindly refrain from outrage.
    And when we chase you down in the streets with our shotguns, please don’t try to run. Please stop and obey our simple commands.
    And when we press our knees into your throat for 9 minutes, please don’t take a knee during our National Anthem and ruin our football games.
    Things are not so bad, are they? Things are not so bad for us.
    Everyone has the same opportunity in this land of the free.
    At least, it’s always been that way for me.
    And when we take your life away it’s only because you didn’t follow our rules.
    And when we take your life away it’s just because you matched the description of someone else we feared.
    And when we take your life from you it’s just because you were holding that cell phone. We thought it was a gun.
    And that empty hand. We thought it was a gun.
    And that toy you’re holding. We thought it was a gun.
    And that gun you had a legal permit to own. It made us fear for our lives.
    You make us fear for our lives. We don’t know why.
    Our lives are precious. Our lives are at risk.
    You have to understand.
    It’s so hard to be white in America today.
    You need to understand.
    Is it so hard to understand?
    Please just protest peacefully.
    Please don’t interrupt our football games.
    Please don’t remind us of how we’ve treated you.
    Please just follow the rules.

    By Keith Giles

  58. jerry 2020-06-01

    And more and more white terrorists

    “Despite President Donald Trump’s claim Monday that white supremacist groups weren’t responsible for any of the looting and violence that erupted over the weekend, a white man possibly linked to white supremacists was arrested on the charges that he set a historic courthouse in Nashville ablaze Saturday night. “Wesley Somers was arrested at a home on Manzano Road in Madison,” Nashville police tweeted Sunday. “Assistance from the community helped lead to his identification. He will be booked into the Metro Jail shortly.” Nashville police tweeted Sunday night that “Somers, 25, faces charges of felony arson, vandalism, & disorderly conduct for setting fire to Nashville’s Historic Courthouse Saturday night.”

    Although police have not confirmed that Somers is a white supremacist, a photo circulating on social media shows him with a masked person raising a closed fist in the air, and the same person is pictured elsewhere making a white supremacist hand signal.”

  59. Jenny 2020-06-01

    Debbo, I’m gong to fight hard to make sure the DFL has police reform on top of their agenda next year. I am ashamed and angry the Minneapolis police department let this happen and they have have had a history of getting away with racist acts like this for years. Why the _____ is a knee to the neck even allowed?
    Every Minnesotan should be mad and should demand, peacefully of course, to their local representatives and Gov Walz and Keith Ellison that police reform MUST happen. Enough is enough, I am sick of it! George Floyd had a 6 year old little girl that will never see her daddy again. Enough with the “he resisted” tactic. They pulled that with Jamar Clark and it worked because of no video. Then the independent autopsy came out and the medial examiner says Floyd did die because of asphyxiation from neck compression. Hello, How can you have autopsies saying different things? I never knew Minneapolis was this corrupt.
    Thank god Keith Ellison is the lead prosecutor in the George Floyd killing. Keith is a very competent attorney and I know he will fight hard to make sure the racist scumbag ex-cop gets put away for life.

  60. Jenny 2020-06-01

    Yes, Racist Ryan give it up. You have no idea what it’s like to be a black person living in America. You are so full of it. Why don’t you look up all the stupid white racists that have called 911 on black people from everything to barbecuing in a park (barbecue Becky) to a six year old selling water (permit Patti), to picking up trash in their neighborhoods, to mowing lawns, even black men getting arrested for being right outside of their own houses. This NEVER happens to white people. I’m tired of people like you that think there is not a racism problem in this country.
    We are the privileged race in this country and always have been. I don’t know what it will ever take to get people like Ryan to ever acknowledge that. The Angry White Man is more alive than ever today and I am scared for my country.

  61. mike from iowa 2020-06-01

    Like drumpf and his ilk ejaculate, minorities have zero appreciation for all the stuff we have done TO them.

    Good list, Debbo.

  62. jerry 2020-06-01

    Anti fascists are angry white men that are sick of the way they’ve been used because they happen to be white. They stand for all who value freedom and all who value fair pay for honest work and for no color line. Privileged whites like Ryan and the rest of the greg deplorable’s, don’t want anyone to understand that they are privileged. Here is what they stand for

  63. John 2020-06-01

    Cadet bone spurs knows nothing about the army, military history, or the US Constitution.
    He told governors to ‘negotiate’ with ‘very fine people’ who occupied government buildings and grounds protesting reasonable public health measures.

    This is the dark before the dawn – the forest fire before the regrowth. The end of the republican party for a generation.

    “They called it the Crisis of 2020 — an unspecified calamity that “could rival the gravest trials our ancestors have known” and serve as “the next great hinge of history.” It could be an environmental catastrophe, they wrote, a nuclear threat or “some catastrophic failure in the world economy.”
    That was in 1991.”

    #16 May 22:
    May 27:

  64. Debbo 2020-06-01

    Cory, The Medium has a long list of actions one can take to contribute to saving American democracy. (That is what the white scumacysts have pledged to end in favor of a white theocracy.)

    One of the suggestions is reading books, then discussing them. DFP could increase its level of positive contribution by hosting such a discussion here. This is how we educate ourselves, grow our empathy and gain greater understanding and knowledge.

    The Medium includes of brief list of recommended books to select from:

    The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander
    Caught by Marie Gottschalk
    Between the World and Me by Ta-Nehisi Coates
    A People’s History of the United States by Howard Zinn
    Orange is the New Black
    The Color of Law
    Teaching to Transgress by bell hooks
    The 1619 Project by Nikole Hannah-Jones

    75 Things White People Can Do for Racial Justice

  65. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Jenny, of course I have no idea what it’s like to be anybody other than who I am. Neither do you. Nobody does. I never said anything remotely like that, so I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

    I definitely think there are racist people doing racist things every single day in this country. Look at debbo, she’s easy example #1. I think racism exists across the planet and I think it’s terrible. To answer a question posed by o, I think it’s horrible when anybody is treated differently because of their race…whether it’s a loan or business opportunity, the criminal justice system, or anything else. Of course I think that is terrible. Pretty much everyone agrees that is bad. Anybody who thinks otherwise is clearly ignorant. Those ignorant people exist in all walks of life. There are ignorant people who are white, black, asian, male, female, straight, gay, republican, democrat, anarchist, atheist, religious, agnostic, obese, bulimic, educated, uneducated, poor, rich, and/or any other label you want to put on them. What you are shouldn’t matter – what you say and do should.

    Of course I support equal pay for equal work. Where do you people come up with the things that you think I believe?

    Am I the only person here who is in favor of treating people equally? What the hell is happening right now?

  66. Debbo 2020-06-01

    “Recognize that in the same way saying “slavery is a necessary evil” (Thomas Jefferson’s words) was acceptable by many in 1820, the same way saying “separate but equal” was acceptable by many in 1940, choosing to not condemn white nationalism, the fact that black people are 2.7 times as likely to be killed by police than white people, the fact that unarmed black Americans are roughly five times as likely as unarmed white Americans to be shot and killed by a police officer, that the fact the black imprisonment rate for drug offenses is about 5.8 times higher than it is for whites, etc are acts of overt racism in 2020.”

    If you respond to that with a “Yeah, but …..” you need to examine your mind and heart and do a great deal of self educating.

  67. Debbo 2020-06-01

    From The Medium article:

    A wise former teacher once said, “The question isn’t: Was the act racist or not? The question is: How much racism was in play?” So maybe racism was 3% of the motivation or 30% or 95%. Interrogate the question “How much racism was in play?” as you think about an incident. Share this idea with the people in your life when they ask, “Was that racist?”

  68. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Debbo, I dont know if your statistics are accurate but I will grant you the point for the sake of conversation. That doesn’t get to the whole issue. You state statistics and suggest the resulting public policy or social response should be obvious. It isn’t. Perhaps more black people put themselves in those situations. I don’t think that would account for the differences that you offer, though, so racism does seem like a reasonable explanation. Racism is disgusting, but certainly real. So what then? What do we do with the undisputed fact that some people are racist? I don’t think the answer is more racism. If you think the answer is more racism, you are absolutely allowed to think that. I just couldn’t disagree more. I think the answer is personal accountability for one’s actions. This neck kneeling cop should be in prison, no doubt. He does not represent me or any other white people. He is only himself. Just as the minority officer standing 2 steps away is not a representative of his racial ancestry. If we can’t agree on individual personal accountability, this relationship is hopeless.

  69. Debbo 2020-06-01

    Racist Ryan says, “Perhaps more black people put themselves in those situations.”

    There’s his “Yeah, but …. ” Blame the victims.

    If you respond to that with a “Yeah, but …..” you need to examine your mind and heart and do a great deal of self educating.

  70. RoughRider 2020-06-01

    Dear Senators Thune & Round and Representative Johnson,

    I am very concerned with President Domald Trump’s Actions and Statements Today regarding the Death of George Floyd in Minneapolis Minnesota a week ago.

    Please exercise your Constitutional Responsibility as a Co-Equal Branch of Government and bring President Trump under Control.

    You and the Republican Party are in danger of losing the 2020 Elections if you allow President Trump to run wild.

    Concerned South Dakota Voter

  71. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Debbo, immediately after that I said “I don’t think that would account for the differences that you offer, though, so racism does seem like a reasonable explanation.”

    So nice try with your selective understanding. But you purposely avoided my opinion to climb your pedestal, so keep climbing, girl. You are likely so numb by your own prejudices by now that your hypocrisy doesn’t even register, much less slow down your ascent of that morality mountain you think you’re on.

  72. Ryan 2020-06-01

    How about this debbo. Men make up over 80% of prison inmates. Do you think that’s because the system is sexist against men? Shouldn’t it be equal to women? Or…perhaps…more men commit crimes that would land a person in prison…? No? Yes?

  73. Debbo 2020-06-01

    You’re so incredibly far from getting it. Miles and miles while you play games, demean people like Natasha Cloud who is living it, call reports from people in the midst of the scumacyst attacks nonsense.

    Snark and smirk is all you’ve got. No heart, no passion, no caring. Yeah but ………

    You’re such a waste of time. You’re just here to score points, try to sound erudite. That’s your response to literal life and death. Go away. Go talk with Deplorable Greg and #BunkerBoy.

  74. Jenny 2020-06-01

    That is a racist statement right there, Ryan. Nobody puts themselves in a situation to get killed. Floyd was just sitting in his car and videos from all angles show he DID NOT RESIST the police. I think the racist redneck police with their angry white man syndrome disorder comes out big time when they see an african american man that is quite bigger and larger muscled than they are. It’s twisted inferior thinking but that is the way the angry white man mentality is. Trump has really brought it out into the open. He is one of them also. Angry White Man Syndrome should really be in the Diagnostic Statistic Manual of Mental Disorders, just like ammosexuality should be. What a sick society we have become.

  75. jerry 2020-06-01

    Never underestimate Debbo, she has class, something your kind lacks dearly. Nice article in the Washington Post about the Anti fascists. Sorry that it’s pay walled but here is a taste.

    “Who are the antifa?
    President Trump equated them with white supremacists. Here’s why he’s wrong.

    First bursting into the headlines when they shut down far-right provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos in February at the University of California at Berkeley, antifascists again captivated the public imagination by battling the fascists assembled at the “Unite the Right” white power rally in Charlottesville.

    But what is antifa? Where did it come from? Militant anti-fascist or “antifa” (pronounced ANtifa) is a radical pan-leftist politics of social revolution applied to fighting the far right. Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists who reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.

    There are antifa groups around the world, but antifa is not itself an interconnected organization, any more than an ideology like socialism or a tactic like the picket line is a specific group. Antifa are autonomous anti-racist groups that monitor and track the activities of local neo-Nazis. They expose them to their neighbors and employers, they conduct public education campaigns, they support migrants and refugees and they pressure venues to cancel white power events.

    The vast majority of anti-fascist organizing is nonviolent. But their willingness to physically defend themselves and others from white supremacist violence and preemptively shut down fascist organizing efforts before they turn deadly distinguishes them from liberal anti-racists.”

    Yep, they will stand and fight the right wing nuts and that friends, is what makes Ryan and the rest of the bedwetters, berry berry frightened. You can easily see that there trademark is not to loot and burn but to stand and defend and that is the opposite of the right wing who loot and burn to inflame the situation. Fascism depends on full control, without it, you just hide in a bunker and hope you have a signal to tweet hate.

    We should all have some Anti Fascist blood in our veins. Our fathers and grandfathers were anti fascist in the world wars and I, for one, am damn proud of them for standing up and getting into the fight.

  76. Ryan 2020-06-01

    If someone spouts nonsense, I do indeed enjoy calling nonsense. That applies equally across all races, genders, and any other quality you find important in judging a person. I think trump is as ignorant as you are, under whatever name you want to call him to make yourself feel superior, so I have no interest in him. But I will criticize him and you and a professional athlete and a Minnesota resident if they speak nonsense. More people like me would fix our society. More people like you would cause irreparable race and gender animosity.

  77. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Jenny, what statement is racist exactly? I didn’t say anything about Floyd or anybody in particular. That man was obviously murdered. That cop needs to be in prison. I offered a possible explanation for a statistic that debbo cited and then said I didn’t think that was the answer. I said racism is certainly real, and not good. I don’t think the white boy club you talk about is responsible for all the black guys killed by black officers, which is statistically more likely than a white officer by the way. In every situation there are a lot of factors at play. White men are not the boogeyman you and debbo suggest.

    What do you think about the criminal justice system being sexist against men, jenny? Is the 80% number concerning to you as an obvious supporter of equality?

  78. Robin Friday 2020-06-01

    Black people do not “put themselves” in a bad situation. They’re pretty much handed a
    bad socioeconomic situation when they’re born. And they didn’t do it to themselves, but somehow they’re expected to rise above it, pull themselves up individually by their bootstraps, so to speak, with everything working against it. Our justice system is rampant with racism and sexism and has been for 500 years. Native American people fill our prisons in SD because they are judged differently. White male rapists suffer little if they assault or murder women because they are awash in male privilege. ‘Twas ever thus.

  79. Jenny 2020-06-01

    I am generally very pro-Union but the Elephant in the Room is the police Union, which is the good old boy club, that protected this horrible man for many years. Unions can not keep protecting bad cops. It shouldn’t be this hard, folks.
    18 citations – Chauvin should have been out the door years ago. I know there are good liberal activists in Minneapolis that must have been fighting for Police reform for years. The Police Union must be that much of a giant
    I will always support the good Unions – the Teamsters, the Electrical Workers, AFL-CIO but this Minneapolis police Union is extremely disturbing and there are racist departments like this all over the country.

  80. jerry 2020-06-01

    Houston Police Chief, it’s a beautiful thing man. Take a listen and a look at someone who is a leader.

    trump’s hate of folks of color will not stand. Dude needs to go back under his stone. To the bunker fascist, to your bunker. We Anti fascists have work to do. Our people are sick and dying, they need healthcare and they need judicial protection and meaningful jobs, not that gig crap but real jobs.

  81. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Jerry, careful. Jenny knows that you don’t know what it’s like to be “one of them” and she doesn’t think you should be so presumptuous as to suggest you know what they need.

    Jenny, I agree with part of your last statement – cops need to be watched more closely and bad cops need to be held accountable for their actions! Definitely! We agree on at least one thing, but I would guess many more. And I’m a white guy! Man, it’s almost like a person’s gender and race aren’t the most important issues in determining the value of their opinions!

  82. Jenny 2020-06-01

    Back off, Ryan, or I will get Cory on you. Cory can you tell Ryan to quit harassing me? He’s harassing Debbo also. He gets really mad at us when we try to tell him the truth.

    I don’t really blame you for being racist, Ryan, I blame your parents. Most South Dakotans were brought up to be racist. My statement stands on its own.

  83. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Jenny, you retreat to vagueness. What truth am I mad at you for speaking? Cory would probably like me to shut up sometimes, but I think he at least appreciates my willingness to engage in a real discussion. Some radicals on here like to accuse me of being a republican or a troll or a right winger or whatever but the content of my messages is clear. I support equality, unequivocally. I do not support anybody being treated differently for their immutable characteristics. I support individual accountability. Nobody should be judged for the actions of someone else. I am always willing to stand up for these principles, which I believe are the heart of what it means to be a good person.

    And I’m not from south dakota. I’ve been here for a couple decades, but I was raised far away from here. I was raised by divorced parents without college degrees, while living in a housing project with crime so bad that the local police precinct rented one of the units to have guys on site at the most opportune times. The neighborhood was almost all poor white people, by the way. The criminals weren’t criminals because they were white. Or because they were poor. But because they were criminals.

    My dad is 100% non judgmental in any way other than a person’s character. He worked at a mill his whole life making zero dollars and I’ve never heard him say a bad word about anyone. He absolutely believes all people should be treated equally and with respect, until their own actions require otherwise. He is the most truthful and honorable man I know. I would be devastated if he was racist, but I know he isn’t because I’ve known him my whole life. My mother went to law school in her 30s, taking on ridiculous debt to do it. She grew up poor, too, and thought she could do something more if she just worked hard enough. Thankful for the federal student loans that made her education possible, she went immediately from law school to work for the local legal aid in nebraska because she was passionate about native americans who need help that aren’t getting it, especially the children. After 15 years in legal aid, and filing bankruptcy because public service doesn’t pay for advanced degrees, she took a pay cut from her already low nonprofit salary to work in nebraska’s state health and human services office to investigate and rectify situations where kids, mostly minorities, were being abused. She did a lot of good for a lot of people. She taught me about personal accountability and equality. You can thank my parents for being real, good people. I won’t speak about your parents because I don’t know anything about what they have or haven’t done, but I do have opinions about you based on your own comments. Because that makes sense. And your ideas don’t.

    AND…even though I’m not a “raised in south dakota racist” like you suggest, I will still stand up for these good local folks. I think very few people here were raised racist, and your sentiment otherwise is gross and not helpful in the least. You are a mongerer. Yuck.

  84. Debbo 2020-06-01

    Tziarra King:

    “I think the main message that needs to be received is that at the end of the day, there are serious injustices in this country that relate to black people. And it’s deeper than everything that you’re seeing on the news. It starts from the foundation that this country was built on.

    “I just hope that people understand that. People are doing everything in their power to deflect from the original issue at hand. Look at the root here, okay? The root is people of color are being oppressed, black people are being oppressed.”

    Pay no attention Racist Ryan. Ms. King is just another one of those irrelevant young Black women like Ms. Cloud, whom you can casually cast aside as you sit all cozy in your white privilege. They know nothing. You’re the expert.

  85. Debbo 2020-06-01

    Brianna Turner
    Tip: saying you don’t see race or that the only race is the human race doesn’t help. America and its values were built around the idea of race. To not see race is to ignore our history of systemic racism. You need to acknowledge race to better address the issues at hand.

    May 31st 2020

    Another one young Black woman for Racist Ryan to demean and ignore as he points out how her lived experience is wrong.

  86. Debbo 2020-06-01

    Chuck Schumer:

    Senate Democrats will be confronting and addressing all of these issues this week, and many of my colleagues will prepare legislative plans of action,” said Schumer, the Senate Minority Leader. “We will propose and push for bold action. Leader McConnell, will decide whether or not the Senate will take any of that action.”

    “At this delicate time, the Senate should lead on these issues rather than aggravate the problem. Leader McConnell should commit to put a law enforcement reform bill on the floor of the Senate before July 4,” he added.
    The Hill

  87. Ryan 2020-06-01

    Debbo, I could quibble with the “foundation that this country” piece, but generally speaking, this comment you quote is not stupid. It’s mostly legitimate. Again, I don’t care what genitals or skin tone the author presents. Only the specifics.

    It’s quite different than suggesting all white people have blood on their hands, though. The truth is racism and abuse of authority are real! I think most people would agree with that. Those actions need to be stopped. However it is a tiny fraction of all people, of all races, that are stoking the separation of races. To suggest white men are the problem ignores the realities that most white men are not racist in thought or action, and that racist people who are not white males are just as despicable as racist white males.

    Aren’t you white, debbo? I only ask because you talk about my whiteness as if it’s an important, chosen feature. I chose to be a white male just as much as you chose to be whatever you are. All of us did. That’s the point. Racism is bad, you racist.

  88. Jenny 2020-06-02

    Go to hell, Ryan. Cory, can you please tell Ryan to get off your blog. He is not being decent and just harassing us. Thank you.

  89. Ryan 2020-06-02

    Not being decent by talking about your parents…? Or…? Oh wait, that wasn’t me. Maybe I’m being indecent by calling your deranged points of view into question through logic and reason? Calling that harassment makes you seem frivolous ya know? Makes it harder to take you seriously at all.

  90. Debbo 2020-06-02

    They got one of them.

    “Last Thursday night, Rupert, of Galesburg, Ill., posted on his public Facebook page an invitation for ‘goons’ to join him in traveling to Minneapolis, where he said he was renting hotel rooms and planned to wreak havoc and ‘take hella good videos.’ ”
    Strib paywall

  91. Jenny 2020-06-02

    Debbo, Ryan doesn’t deserve the time of day. Just ignore him. Everybody, please ignore Ryan. He’s a petty little racist, your typical narcissistic, insecure white American millennial male – probably suffering from premature balding. Definitely anti-Muslim and anti-gay.

  92. Debbo 2020-06-02

    “The riots and arson that followed protests of George Floyd’s death have devastated organizations and businesses that serve communities of color. Destruction from the south side’s Lake Street to West Broadway Avenue in north Minneapolis has hit immigrant- and minority-owned businesses already struggling amid the pandemic-induced shutdown. Now, ethnically diverse neighborhoods are grappling with the loss of jobs, services and investments.”

    They are saying protesters were a mix of people until Thursday night when they were mostly all white and not local. That’s when the rioting began.
    Strib paywall

  93. Debbo 2020-06-02

    The National Guard is treating citizens respectfully and kindly. They’re protecting businesses and people, interacting, friendly, chatting. That’s how it’s supposed to be done.

    Strib paywall

  94. Debbo 2020-06-02

    Dale Murphy, white former Atlanta Braves baseball star:

    “If you’re a beneficiary of systemic racism, then you will not be able to dismantle it at no cost to yourself,” Murphy wrote. “You will have to put yourself at risk. It might not always result in being physically attacked, but it will require you to make yourself vulnerable.”

    Even Michael Jordan is speaking up!

  95. Jenny 2020-06-02

    White little supremacist pricks that live in their Mama’s basements.
    Every member of an English professional soccer team took a knee for George Floyd today. You would never seen an American professional sports team do that in solidarity. Never.

  96. Ryan 2020-06-02

    Haha jenny, “Everybody, please ignore Ryan.” Could you be more obvious in your need for approval from somebody, anybody! Since we are psychologizing each other, let me play your guessing game…spoiled white girl with daddy issues, heavyset, 2 years of college but you knew more than your professors, right?

    And I’m not a millenial, although I hear a lot of millennials believe in equality, which is nice. I’m not anti gay, either. Or anti Muslim. People should do whatever they want if it doesn’t hurt anybody. You just can’t handle disagreeing with someone who isn’t a stereotype, can you? I encourage you to read more diverse accounts of the world.

  97. Caleb 2020-06-02

    Sorry in advance for anybody afraid of a large text wall. Skim read if you need. I start by prefacing my responses to this thread with what a bicycle tourist (dedicated to health and peace), I enjoyed dinner with a couple years ago, posted today:

    “For someone as verbose as myself, I’ve kept fairly quiet over the last three months as the world events have eclipsed anything I’ve seen before in my short life. The reasoning has largely been for an interest in gaining understanding before speaking in an age where certainty is uncommon. And over the last week, a complex scenario of horror and violence has unfolded which has been striking me even more dumbfounded than before. But at some point, silence becomes betrayal. When your fellow man suffers, the absence of help is harm in and of itself. Right now, people are suffering; physically from a virus, economically from it’s effects, and emotionally from losing loved ones, seeing their brother killed, watching their cities burn, and hearing choppers overhead in the darkness. The killing of George Floyd was unquestionably appalling. I’m angry. If you aren’t – talk to me directly. Moving from there… what sense is there in destroying our own communities? A beloved co-op in Minneapolis with deep ties to the African-American community there was vandalized and could not open – we cut our nose off to spite our face. A police car is torched as a powerful symbol – serving little more than to fan the flames of hate which escalate violence upon violence. Our tax dollars pay for it to be replaced and another cop snaps, unleashing baton fire on a hundred pound nothing who dared speak their mind. In 1992, riots in LA solved nothing. In 2014, riots in Ferguson solved nothing. I am acutely aware that riots are the language of the unheard, but perhaps in 2020 we need to see that riots don’t work. We scream in tongues which the opposition cannot understand. We push them away, as a xenophobe recoils from the fear which foreign words instill them with. Fear of the unfamiliar; that which they don’t understand. How can we speak truth to power in a way that breaks through barriers without wounding our own? How can we reconcile support for six with a condemnation of a half dozen? All I know is that clinging to repetitive tropes is absolutely useless. We cannot devolve into platitudes and safely-distant criticisms.

    Only a bold look into ourselves and a furious demand for innovative human growth will solve any of this. I cast my lot into the bucket of #justiceforgeorgefloyd as we count our numbers, but I demand that we simply not let this be a flare up in a futile cycle. Change requires sustained pressure over time. Different results require different tactics. Maybe it does take a lot of shocking events which don’t go away to get the public’s attention. Let’s not let those who tuned in miss the message. And let’s focus on reaching the people who normally would change the channel slip away. Hate breeds hate; love breeds love. Speak to your enemies in their language and you’ll never need to raise your fists again. I welcome all comments.”


    Ryan, I agree with much of your thoughts on identity politics, people grasping little of their party platform (though I don’t get how someone explaining state & federal policies in a way against their party mouthpieces suggests they don’t form their own opinions), and like you, I detest violence against innocent people regardless of the political affiliation of offender or victim; I believe most democrats are decent human beings; I believe most republicans are decent human beings; I believe we are more alike than different; I believe we will solve more problems together as one nation than separately as two political “sides”.

    Even so, neither this DFP article nor quotes within it suggested hating violence from all sides is exclusive to those identifying as antifa. Instead it explained that hating violence from a specific subset of the population makes one antifascist, and that no monolithic nationwide antifa exists. The answer to your question about being “in the club” is therefore evident in the article. Similarly, nobody suggested you have to hate violence from just the far right, that you can’t hate violence irrespective of political affiliation, and that they want to narrow the goal to standing up against violence from such a specific and small group (side note: I encourage you to reconsider the idea that far right white supremacists are a small group, as many of them intentionally hide their leanings from the public as they wait for an opportune time to start a race war).

    To what antifa Twitter account did you refer? Just as our covert intelligence and police forces have in the past infiltrated social movements to discredit them, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Twitter account you referenced is not made by anyone who is antifascist.

    You’re correct that the far right is not a monolithic group, either, but when was the last time you heard of a left or far left white supremacist? I’ve never heard of or seen such a thing, so please point me to any examples, and consider that white supremacists might be generally right and far right leaning because our State (as in nation) as currently governed heavily favors us white folk, and that such may be why people generally refer to the far right when trying (and maybe failing) to be as articulate as you expect of them. Further, you say “This is like, a real revolution in the making here! Just good ‘ol americans, all right: just blame something you don’t understand on somebody you don’t like for reasons you can’t explain.” Who are the specific “somebod[ies]” to which you refer and what are the specific “reasons [they] can’t explain” but use against those somebodies? Did you maybe project connections nobody actually suggested?

    I thought it clear when debbo’s reverend claimed responsibility for the knee on black and brown folks’ necks that she was speaking of a metaphorical knee, as in accepting and perpetuating (whether consciously or inadvertently) a system or systems that result in racism-based murder and other oppression, given her statements about the system (within the same paragraph) right before that statement.

    I’m also worried about the increased suicide, opioid addiction (and subsequent death), handgun violence (and any gun violence for that matter – I’ve known people who accidentally harmed themselves cleaning their guns, and others who shot themselves to death, for instance), the many hungry and/or starving people (not just kids), and the child molesters and sex traffickers. I’m also worried about media manipulation and advertisement (which many news sources essentially are) directing and narrowing individual and subsequently public consciousness. Even so, I hope you’ll keep in mind that somebody pointing out an issue they care about and suggesting others care about that issue and take action does not inherently equal them suggesting anybody ignore or not care about any other issue(s). The universe demands nothing of anybody though our intention obligates us to any given act, so you didn’t need to Google Cloud, but I believe thinking “she sounds dumb as hell” based upon her writing Debbo linked betrays a lack of contextual awareness on your part. Did you read the statements that came before “It’s to tell them that ‘seeing both sides’ means having blood on their hands…”?

    Terrance Floyd may speak wisdom, but he also speaks with presumption when saying justice will be served, so while folks relaxing and not destroying anything is ideal, doing so may also accomplish absolutely nothing. I say that only to encourage a bit more empathy and historical examination.

    You calling Debbo a racist looks to me pretty much the same as her calling you a racist, except that your diction suggests more angst than does hers.

    Jenny speaking of having an idea of how black people live is clearly different from how you speak of having an idea of how people other than yourself live. Ideas are not experience. You can have an idea of something without experiencing it. As far as I can tell, she suggested you have extended little, if any, empathy toward people about which you complain.

    Suggesting that more people like you would fix our society looks to me as though you have an extremely narrow understanding of how complicated our society’s collective psychology, sociology, and material condition are in that you may lack the humility allowing someone to recognize they can account for only a tiny fraction of all pertinent variables that would factor into such an outcome. Also, I believe you have an exaggerated perception of Jenny and Debbo’s ostensible white men boogeyman (based only on this thread), though as I grow more exhausted for the night, I struggle to recall how to explain that. I can say, though, that more black officers killing black people than white officers killing black people does not explain whether any officer(s) kill with racist motivations.

    As for the criminal justice system being sexist against men: how can you so easily suggest black people might “put themselves in those situations” without extending that same thought to men suffering against our justice system? Yes, you said you didn’t think that could account for everything Debbo said, but swiftly afterward countered that claim by saying personal accountability for one’s actions is the answer. So as a white man who grew up on a small family farm near a tiny rural town, who has worked manual labor since some of his earliest memories, and has gone his whole life facing nothing but minor traffic citations, I suggest your gripe about the judicial system is how you might possibly come to understand what the people you so strongly oppose (while suggesting we all minimize our divisive behaviors) in this thread have been saying to you.

    Yes, women can abuse men, and some do, including rape. Yes, women can abuse other women, and some do, including rape. Women can, and some do, murder both men and women. Women can, and some do, destroy or deface other peoples’ property. But maybe less women face judicial consequence because women collectively do all those things far less than men do. And maybe that’s not entirely the fault of each individual male or reason to praise any individual woman due to the same forces (and/or others) that have oppressed women while emboldening men throughout history.

    Yes, black people can abuse and murder white people, and some do. Yes, black people can abuse and murder black people, and some do. Yes, black people can destroy or deface other peoples’ property, and some do. So maybe just as most men spend most their lives avoiding judicial consequence, most white people can go most their lives not being racist in the way certain people suggest you are, even while a minority of white people are racist in the way they suggest while speaking more generally about racist people in our population, and at the same time the racist black minority might be smaller than the racist white minority. And maybe even those hateful, murderous racist white or black people are not entirely to blame for the ideology and subsequent action their life in this society has shaped and inspired in them.

    Criminals aren’t criminals because they’re criminals. People become criminals by acting against a law or laws, getting caught in the act, and getting convicted. Skin color and wealth make nobody a criminal, but nobody here has suggested as much, and only idiots would. Instead skin color and wealth are merely (not a light matter, though) a couple of the most predisposing factors in who breaks laws.

    Lastly, I highly recommend you (and others) look at the etymology of “race” as an idea describing human beings, because to my knowledge, some white people looking for an excuse to exploit and control people with different skin color made up the concept while falsely claiming different skull shapes and outward physical attributes determine intelligence and particular behaviors.

    jerry, I agree with some of your content in this thread, but similar to Ryan, find your dramatic personal attacks unproductive. Also, while I’m sympathetic to the Iranian population in general, let’s keep in mind our federal government has many times made statements in support of myopic insurgents in other nations (such as Iran), pretending to support those rebels and their fellow citizens, while truly only hoping to destabilize those nations and bring them under US control or influence for personal and/or team gain. The Iranian foreign ministry could easily make such statements only under the perception that doing so is a rote, necessary, socially expected function of government by this point.

    Donald and Cory, your description of anarchists reminds me of my childhood/adolescent beliefs about them, ones I held before living among some and interacting with more of them. Anarchists are far more varied than that. I’d recommend checking out if you disagree.

    Greg, if I had to say I leaned any particular way, it would be far left. Guess what I’ve been doing for the last four years, and especially since the pandemic impacted life in SD: working seven days a week and spending little time outside except in the dark while barely anybody else was around (though I did participate in one women’s march in Sioux Falls to support my room mates). In this thread in general you have expressed an extremely narrow view. Your belief that antifa groups don’t exist also supports my saying so. Look up Rose City Antifa. I’ve seen their flyers posted on electric line poles around town with my own eyes, as well as watched a video of a public lecture by one of their members after a portion of the public shared it as reason to boycott the cooperative business for which he worked.

    leslie, when you suggest the entire Democratic slate is good people of conscience while Ryan suggests most of both parties are decent human beings, you lose him as you do me. I won’t forget when key action by Pelosi made possible the expansion of Section 702 surveillance power under the Trump administration, for example. In each party are leeches exploiting “good people of conscience”, which I put in quotes only because “good” is subjective and I believe conscientiousness can cover such a wide set of considerations that even the most conscientious, coming from far different conditions and angles, might struggle to identify each other’s conscientiousness.

    leslie and Debbo, I’m obviously not so active in this blog’s comment section, so don’t have the hindsight you do: for what reason(s) do you believe Ryan is racist?

  98. Jenny 2020-06-02

    Ryan, I am a thin white Gen Xer that has a good job with a nice salary that is in an interracial relationship with a black man. I have a couple friends, one in particular that look down on me dating a black man. I was appalled and hurt when I found this out, as I consider these people my friends. They are about 20 years older than me and they like to say it is a generation thing, which is just a bunch of BS. Don’t blame your racism on being from the older generation. It is sad that in 2020 a white woman can still be judged by dating a black man, yet it seems to me that culturally it is much more acceptable for white men to date Asian women. I’ve known white male/Asian woman couples that aren’t judged like I am. Things really haven’t changed that much. Yet another double standard when it comes to men and women.
    One last thing, the black guy I’m dating grew up in the South and told me what his Grandpa used to say about white women “those white women will be the death of you!” Black men back then which wasn’t even that long ago, could not look at a white woman for fear of being lynched. What a sad sad History the US has.

  99. Jenny 2020-06-02

    Ryan, can you please quit putting me down? It really speaks volumes when people have to start bullying other people about their intelligence. It really says a lot about what kind of person they are. My own family will say I’m dumb and it is hurtful. I don’t expect to have to hear that on my friend Cory’s blog. Does that make you feel good to say rude things like that? There are things I regret saying and at the end of the day I feel bad about it. So let’s call it a truce.

  100. leslie 2020-06-02

    I propose “ryan” is not real, but a troll: “These Russian trolls, they don’t work to antagonize people like one might think. They’re entrenching people in ideology, not working to change ideology.”

  101. leslie 2020-06-02

    Ryan the troll: @16:44 “And do you know what “mopping the floor” with somebody even means? You are obviously too old to understand half of the youthful things you…” He has turned this thread into 100+ comments wasting the time of we people if good conscience. Ageism, racism…whatever. Caleb is a serious contender for troll status too. He “doth protest too much”. Law school mama, mill worker dada, NE horsesheit…yadayadayada (:

    Vote Blue everytime.

    Cory, could we get a sense of when these trolls 1st showed up on the blog?

  102. Ryan 2020-06-02

    leslie – cory knows who I am in real life, and my name really is ryan. I’m not a troll. You just can’t handle someone disagreeing with you and offering valid points as to why you are so often wrong. The story of my parents and everything else I have shared on here is all true, despite you desperately wishing I was making it up for some reason. And if you accuse me of entrenching people in ideology – what do you mean? I have offered or supported no ideology other than freedom and equality for all. I think your comment of “Vote Blue everytime” is more of an attempt to entrench people in an ideology. But there I go again, assuming that words have meaning to you.

    jenny – it seems like you are mad at me for you having racist friends. you should associate with people who won’t judge your partner for his age, race, or gender. That’s how ignorant people behave. Weird how on one post you are complaining about a particular age, race, and gender (old white males)…and then come on whining about other people judging your boyfriend based on age, race, or gender. That’s ironic and hypocritical. Do you really not see that? Just like your playing the victim when you come on here and insult me and then I retaliate with similar insults and you are suddenly hurt by the very thing you initiated and act like I am harassing you? You are an irrational conflict all within yourself. However, as to your truce, I agree to engage with you as civilly as you engage with me.

    caleb, what a great comment for the most part. You seem like a smart person who I would enjoy having a real conversation with. As for the quibble about antifa and the far-right violence, I was initially being sarcastic, which I thought was obvious in my tone and context. I think a lot of problems in america are exacerbated by focusing on small differences like the race or political affiliation of a criminal. I don’t want violent white people in society any more than I want violent black people or violent anybody, so it’s mildly humorous but honestly disheartening to see people categorize big problems like violent humans into small groups like violent right wingers.

    As for white supremacists, those people are dumb as hell, too. I’m not sure why you are asking if I know of any left-leaning white supremacists, but no I don’t. I don’t know any white supremacists at all. If I did, I would eliminate them from my life (like jenny should do). I don’t think that means that there is not racism in the left – my honest opinion is that republicans and democrats have an equal percentage of racist people. They may show it differently, but racism is racism.

    As for the issues of men versus women in prison, you are making the point I was trying to make. I left it to be inferred, which was apparently less effective than I thought. debbo had stated some statistics regarding rates of arrests and death by cop; i was responding to those statistics; the first obvious question is “did the people who are arrested or shot more often put themselves in those scenarios more often?” I said I don’t think that explains the variance in crime stats that debbo stated. I was then immediately accused of being racist for even suggesting that one item to consider is personal accountability. So, in order to show that it’s reasonable to consider personal accountability, I mentioned the male versus female prison issue. It is reasonable to look at prison statistics and say that men commit more crimes because they are in prison at much higher rates. Perhaps the system is sexist, sure, but ignoring the possibility that men commit more prison-sentence crimes is being intentionally naive. So across other disparities like race or culture instead of just gender, perhaps the system is rigged, I agree, but blindly ignoring the possibility that individual behavior is a factor is disingenuous. But the phony progressives hoot and holler if you suggest anything could be a factor other a nationwide white male conspiracy to imprison innocent people.

    I am just frankly disgusted with the “my group-defines-me” mentality that is pervasive on this blog. The baloney often spouted on here is: democrats are all good; republicans are all bad; white people all owe other people something; men owe women something; everyone who voted for trump is evil and racist and misogynistic; everyone who voted for hillary or obama are saviors; the “oppressive patriarchy” is holding everyone down who isn’t a white male; this country is only good for white men; blah blah blah.

    It’s just nonsense, and I am watching the political party I have been a part of for my entire adult life slip into the grip of radical tribalists. I don’t believe the remedy for historical division, for slavery, or for oppression, is more division and more oppression. People get mad at me for railing against identity politics, but this is a huge problem right now! I don’t agree at all with a person’s value being determined by race or gender or age or anything else that they have no control over. It’s the popular thing these days to try to “get back” at white men for all sorts of misplaced anger, but I am not willing to agree that somebody should be judged for being born a white male, or assigned group guilt, or obligated to behave in some particular way based on gender and race. You just can’t have it both ways. You can’t say everyone should be treated equally except white men. That’s not equal. That’s not acceptable. As long as it’s acceptable to be racist and sexist against whatever the current scapegoat looks like, our country won’t move forward to real equality.

    This is why debbo and mike and jenny and leslie call me a racist: because I am a white male. Plain and simple. I am glad you asked them why they think I am racist. I have asked them to explain that accusation repeatedly, but instead they just continue to dismiss my opinions because of the color of my skin and my gender, while the sonic boom of their hypocrisy echos endlessly.

  103. Caleb 2020-06-02

    leslie, I’m worried about bots and paid trolls, too. I spent (some would say wasted) hours on that one post last night, and I did it believing prominent news, entertainment, and social media have created (whether intentionally or inadvertently) caricatures of pretty much every type of person so that people will out of hand dismiss others they don’t clearly understand while believing they do, such as you may have done here.

    Cory can’t help you prove I’m a troll, but if he remembers dinner conversation with me around five years ago, he can vouch for my human existence, and if you’d like and he’s willing, I give him permission to provide you my email address so we can have a sincere conversation about our shared fears and how to most efficiently address them, because like my friend said in the what I quoted above, not all xenophobes are ideological xenophobes, but many become one after well-intentioned, but insufficiently skilled, fellow citizens try turning them from xenophobia through language. Entrenching people in their ideology is not exclusive to or primarily the result of Russian trolls. Corporate America did that to us first, and has been far more effective at doing so, as well.

  104. Jenny 2020-06-02

    Ryan, you are right, I had no right to insult you. I am just tired, hurt and angered about what is happening in the country today. I am tired nothing ever changes, aren’t you? Why do you get upset when I mention old white men. They DO run the country and always have. Look up the statistics, they are the far majority in Congress, state governments and city councils all over the country. Only 8% of the Minnepolis police officers even live in Minneapolis! That is startling! Go ahead and say well no one is stopping them from running. You live in a bubble. Life is much harder for minorities. We are the privileged race. Why can’t you accept that?
    I have called my so-called racist friends out. I have told them I am hurt. I have tried to steer them away from racism. One in particular, I don’t even consider that much of a friend and don’t think he is a good person. What else can I do? Throw eggs at his house?

  105. Ryan 2020-06-02

    jenny – “what else can I do? Throw eggs at his house?” You can decide what you think is appropriate, but for me personally I just would not associate with somebody who I disagreed with on such a fundamental level of human decency. I don’t think you are to blame for being a victim of racist people, but your racist friend does not represent other people with his same skin color or gender. That’s just his own stupidity. Applying that to other people is just as ignorant and unfair as his racism towards your relationship.

    We all live in bubbles, by the way. How could I possibly be white, and black, and male, and female, and liberal, and conservative, and religious, and agnostic, and anything else? I can’t be all of those things, or even most of those things. We are all living in our own subjective bubbles. Some of our life is what happens to us. Some of our life is how we respond to the things that happen to us. Some people have easier lives than others, I am sure of that. Some people are born wealthy. Some people are born poor. Some are born with learning disorders. Some are born into abusive families. Some are good looking and some are ugly. Some have higher levels of intelligence than others. Some people have large birthmarks across their entire face that are difficult to ignore when meeting somebody face-to-face. Some people start from disadvantageous positions and work up. Some start in the middle and stay there. Some start at the top and fall. The diversity of experiences across the human race can be beautiful and it can be tragic, no doubt. I feel very fortunate that I was born to a loving family, in a free country. We had almost money, but we didn’t starve to death. I don’t take the freedoms and benefits I enjoy for granted – whether they are ones I was fortuitously born into or ones that I earned through hard work. I certainly understand that I “have it better” than many people, and I am not bitter that some others have it better than me. Because there will always be variety in the human experience, some people will be “luckier” than others, that is a fact. Equality of outcome across billions of people is impossible, most especially because people don’t all want the same things. I think the only thing we can do that is ethically sustainable is to support legal and cultural equality of opportunity for all. That is the most lofty and just goal for our society. The fact that some people appear to start from “better” positions than others doesn’t seem to me to be a good excuse for treating anybody a certain way based on lumping them into groups of skin color and genitalia.

    None of us knows the personal adversity of anyone else. There are rich old white men who risked their lives fighting on foreign beaches for our freedoms. There are rich old white men who inherited everything they own and never worked a day in their lives for something bigger than themselves. There are poor black people who try to raise healthy and happy families, and there are poor black people who shoot each other and steal. Rich old white men are not the problem. They are also not the solution. They are just people. Black people are not all downtrodden and in need of something from me or you. They are not all criminals, either. They are just people. The only thing that makes sense to me is treating people equally and ignoring those factors, like race and gender and age, which don’t define the content of their character.

    I don’t get upset when you “mention” old white men. I get upset when you call for their removal from this country based on the oldness, whiteness, or maleness. Saying something like “I am sick and tired of old white men, get out, we are all sick of you” is very similar to some racist idiot saying something like “I am sick and tired of young black women, get out, nobody sees value in you.” Those are both terrible things to think or say. I don’t think it’s OK to be racist or sexist against white men just because you think they have it “better” than you. That fosters division and animosity, and certainly not unity or equality.

  106. leslie 2020-06-02

    Email is too personal caleb. Brevity is a virtue here. Outside coffee in RC is fine. Read the “entrenched ideology” article that you and “ryan” parrot. Putin, not corporate America, has dangerously weaponized entrenched ideology endangering world freedom and democracy. Trump swears at 50 governors saying the world looks on on them as a joke. Putin is the one that is laughing. That is the point!

    Vote Blue or lose to climate change, lose democracy, lose to coronovirus, and lose to economic inequality.

  107. Jenny 2020-06-02

    Thank you for being kinder, Ryan. I appreciate it. but before the rumors get started that I have racist friends, I really don’t consider this person a ‘friend’, more of an aquaintance. He is a good friend of my best friend. I should have made this more clearer. He’s kind of like the person on the street that you want to stay on good terms with. I don’t want to cause problems with my dearest best friend and tell her he is not a good person, but I have made it clear that I don’t stand with his racism. Sorry if I didn’t make this clearer.

  108. RoughrRider 2020-06-02

    Ryan & Debbo,

    IMHO, you both need to take your conversation outside (PM) so other views can be expressed.


  109. Debbo 2020-06-02

    “Like all other strong men, Donald Trump is a coward and soft and terrified. Hiding in the White House and turning off the lights is all on brand. These are insecure, sad little men who build themselves up with the iconography of fascism to hide their fear.”

    Tweet by an unknown author. It’s also fitting for the fearful white scumacysts and other racists. (Are they all the same thing?) Lots of talk and braggadocio, but in reality, terrified little boys and girls.

  110. Debbo 2020-06-02

    This was written by a Minneapolis woman who lived in India for 20 years. She did not hide out in white enclaves, but got to know the Indians on many levels. These are her observations:

    “When something goes wrong, when something threatens this survival, [the desperate] are overcome with desperation. All civility is thrown out the window because good manners no longer matter. In that moment of grasping for life, oppressed communities will do whatever it takes to make ends meet. They will march and shout and riot to make their voices heard. Passivity is no longer a luxury they can afford. Passivity is a luxury of the elite.

    “A normally mild and gentle mother will kill to save her child.

    “A normally gracious and generous father will steal to feed his family.

    “A normally passionate teen will become a disruption when he no longer feels seen or heard.

    “This desperation runs deep inside the souls of the oppressed. It touches every part of them, every interaction they have, every decision they make. The elite cannot judge, because those with power cannot understand the powerless. The privileged cannot imagine life without their privilege. Building awareness and standing in solidarity with our oppressed brothers and sisters is of paramount importance. And this begins with empathy.”
    Strib paywall

    These are the things that white scumacysts don’t know and don’t want to know. But these are the things we must know and enter into if we will heal the racism that cripples the beautiful USA.

  111. Debbo 2020-06-02

    Sandra’s Larson worked on policing issues with the City of Minneapolis 50 years ago. She sees these problems today:

    1) Accountability for unacceptable performance remains a problem. Police conduct must be accountable to elected officials, with internal systems that expose and correct problems. In the 1970s, I witnessed numerous training sessions where some of the participants (certainly not all) had wildly unsuitable responses to situations with people in distress. But police unions could prevent any weeding out of personnel based on suitability of personality for the work, even after management became aware of these problems.

    It appears past problematic behavior is still not accountable, given what we know of the officers involved in the George Floyd killing.

    2) The second issue is the paramilitary culture of law enforcement. While no longer true today, police departments historically excluded or impeded nonveterans from joining the force, and there was no emphasis on hiring women or people of color. This has changed, but not entirely.

    A few years back, I saw a recruitment video of a local police department in which the opening image was of a gun barrel, as if this would appeal to the target audience. While we know some progress has been made to change this mentality, I would submit that those who might want a career in community service most likely do not consider a law enforcement career as a first choice.

    3) The third systemic issue is even a bigger challenge. Police must operate in a surrounding culture of violence, amid the presence of guns. An armed populace creates a problem for a law enforcement organization, even as it earnestly may try to turn away from a war mentality. This is our fault, not the police’s fault.

    4) The fourth problem is systemic racism and the growing inequity among our population. Social ills create social needs that must be met with empathy and a search for solutions, not violence.
    Strib paywall

  112. アオイ 2020-06-02

    Turning a blind eye to race isn’t a solution. Although race is a social construct, as others had already pointed out, its effects on society are very real. Perhaps what is referred to as equality is better described through the principle of fairness. Equality is a fine standard once we all have actuality achieve equal footing. As MLK puts it, “Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree, but should ask for nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man enters the starting line of a race 300 years after another man, the first would have to perform some incredible feat in order to catch up’’.

    Closing ourselves off from those we don’t necessarily see eye to eye on doesn’t really seem to bridge the gap to create progress, instead seems to breed more division and lead to living in a bubble. This is further perpetuated by voting along side party lines “just because”, without so much as considering what someone else has to say. At that point, we’re just eradicating their voices, the majority of which are thinking of the well-being for all. Both sides of the aisle contain good people, how we expect them to value our voices if we treat them like that?

  113. Debbo 2020-06-02

    This will move your heart, unless your a scumacyst.

  114. Debbo 2020-06-02

    Here we go. This better clarifies my feelings and gives a better description of people like Ryan than I did. I may have been wrong to call him “racist.” He’s more like the white guy who finds the USA’s current racist systems very comfortable.

    “Just because you may not be racist does not mean that you are not complicit or engaged in upholding the benefits and privileges given as a result of systemic racism.

    “Being anti-racist, on the other hand, means that you are actively doing the work to combat racism.

    “International Perspectives: Women and Global Solidarity affirms that ‘Anti-racism is the active process of identifying and eliminating racism by changing systems, organizational structures, policies, practices and attitudes, so that power is redistributed and shared equitably.’ ”

    The Difference Between Being ‘Not Racist’ and ‘Anti-Racist’

  115. jerry 2020-06-02

    Not a Black guy, a congressman’s white son. Anti-Fascist so there’s that.

    “The teenage son of a former Republican congressman was arrested late Monday for allegedly tagging a sign at the Trump National Golf Club in Jupiter, Florida, with “BLM.”

    Thomas Joseph J. Rooney told police he’d done it “because of unequal treatment in the justice system,” local station WPTV first reported, citing Rooney’s arrest report. “BLM” is short for “Black Lives Matter.”

  116. grudznick 2020-06-02

    There will be some looters deservedly shot by store owners registered as Obama voters and then other libbies will blame innocent people elsewhere.

    Mark down grudznick’s words.

  117. jerry 2020-06-02

    Should be tag down grudznick’s words. One thing for sure, it you haven’t been downtown Rapid City for a while, there is really nothing to loot. Nothing but “For Lease” signs and “Store Closing” signs in the windows. The only thing that might could happen is that an owner might see the opportunity to toss a match to collect insurance money and blame it on the Anti Fascists.

  118. Caleb 2020-06-02

    Haven’t caught up on all the comments. leslie, I respect your position on e-mail and emphasis on brevity. When the pandemic started, I focused foremost on our collective attention/mental economy. Then the pandemic led to my business overwhelming my waking hours and wearing my mental faculties. I’ll try harder.

    I don’t know what article you referred to, and I’ve not read anything on the matter in months. What I said about corporate America silo-ing us first was based on years of studying the history of our nation, since its founding, through the lenses of war, international relations, covert operations, propaganda, social movements, political movements, and political philosophies. I don’t look down on anyone putting all the blame on Putin, yet even having read about decades-old covert campaigns by Russia, I have an opposing view, is all. Would you please clarify to what article you referred?

  119. grudznick 2020-06-02

    Mr. jerry, let us not put thoughts about arson in the addled brains of some.

  120. John in Texas 2020-06-03

    Wow, some of you are just way off your rocker (Jenny, Debbo).

    I needed to jump in here and give some food for thought.

    1. The true racist is the one that always accuses everyone else of being a racist when they disagree with them. Just because you know someone different than you or are in a relationship with someone different than you doesn’t give you a “I’m not a racist label”.

    2. If Trump has been failing for three years the left wouldn’t be losing their minds every day. They would be celebrating if that was the actual case.

    3. Antifa is nothing but a bunch of spoiled brats that can only act out in numbers. Soon they will find out that most of them don’t believe in their cause as much as they thought they did and return to their parents basement like the scared little children they are. If they decide to keep terrorising the American citizens their in for a rude awakening. Americans will only be pushed so far and when so far becomes to far it’s like poking a Grizzle Bear with a short stick, just stupid.

    Antifa is supposed to be anti nazi but they act just like the nazi’s under Hitler. When people disagree with you use violence against them. There is nothing more fascist.

    If people hate this country so much they should just leave and do is all a favor. Trump Pence 2020!

    Last but not least,

    President Trump loves this country more than any President of my life time. He has delt with all the hate from the left that have attacked him, his family, his supporters and anyone associated with him. The hate filled left has done everything they can to sabotage his presidency with acts that are unpatriotic, treasonous, and just plain wrong. Soon the Bill Barr and Jeff Durahm investigation will disclose how corrupt, hateful and unpatriotic the majority of the left is.

    The most horrible people of 2020 Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi.

  121. Debbo 2020-06-03

    Here are excellent documentaries you can watch, put your anti-racism in action. No paywall.

  122. jerry 2020-06-03

    The FBI Finds ‘No Intel Indicating Antifa Involvement’ in Sunday’s Violence
    Trump wants to designate antifa a terrorist organization, despite lack of authority and evidence of wrongdoing.

    The only terrorist organization is being run out of the White House by the Covid King.

  123. Jenny 2020-06-03

    Thank you AG Keith Ellison for upgrading Chauvin’s charges to 2nd degree murders and charging the three others with aiding and abetting 2nd Degree Murder. Black Lives Do Matter! RIP George Floyd.

  124. Jason 2020-06-03

    Thank you Cory.

  125. leslie 2020-06-03

    Sure Caleb. Best wishes with life’s intensity these days. I’ll search up the article, which used the phrase “entrenched ideology” re: russian and other trolls that work us against one another. The citation is here some where. I got it from google.

  126. Caleb 2020-06-03

    leslie, sorry about my previous comment. I later recognized my misinterpretation. Because you said “parrot”, which I take as mindless repeating, I interpreted “read” as a verb, as if you had read an article that inspired me and Ryan. Now I have read the WBUR article.

    The article and your words remind me of November 24th, 2016, when the Washington Post published an article titled “Russian propaganda effort helped spread ‘fake news’ during election, experts say”. My social media friend policy was accept requests from anybody I had met, so that year I saw countless memes/posts from a wide range (in political leanings, age, gender, sex, religion, etc) of not only our polity, but also those of other nations. I feared how much others had taken advantage of their views, and was therefore pretty terrified by that WaPo article.

    Since then, however, I’ve come across information from sources I find far more trustworthy which suggests we’ve gone through something like a new Red Scare, one that has distracted many people from what corporate America has done and is doing to us, and conditioned others to anti-Russian sentiments. If you want to understand what I mean, study how news and entertainment media and advertising have developed, especially since former Justice Lewis Powell wrote a memo outlining a backlash to the civil rights and anti-war movements. Major networks, papers, web sites, radio stations, entertainment producers, etc have successfully sold us to ourselves and our opponents and third-party observers so long that we’ve made ourselves susceptible to Russian trolls.

    To me, what’s funny but unsurprising about that WBUR article is all the talk of Russian, Chinese, and Iranian trolls without even a consideration for whether American trolls exist. It reminds me of how often US officials and media have pointed at hackers in China and Russia as huge threats without ever talking about US hacking capabilities and actions. It reminds me of how Russian trolling in 2016 was a drop in the bucket compared to corresponding domestic actors’ influence.

    Ryan, since you discourage emotion for the sake of rationale, some feedback:

    1) I don’t believe you know what leslie can handle.

    2) I don’t believe you know that leslie desperately wishes your parental stories were made up.

    3) You can indirectly support ideologies other than “freedom and equality for all” by positing those phrases, because people with specific ideologies and related agendas exploit that passion, toward different ends, in many people who hold that passion. For an easy example, US leaders waging war against Afghanistan and Iraq for the sake of Afghani and Iraqi freedom made life hell for citizens there. Dig mildly deep into history and you’ll find plenty other examples, including those against US citizens’ freedom and equality. Maybe that’s why leslie associates some of the ideology you espouse with movements and ideologies to which you don’t adhere.

    4) Ignorant people are ignorant because they ignore things. Selectively associating with people requires ignoring people. I don’t think that will lead to the enlightened society for which you claim aim.

    5) Human cognition is not based exclusively on logic like computer programming – anybody trying to understand the abundant perspectives upon reality, especially in recent decades of widely varied experiences for most, is likely to have internal conflict. Please don’t let recognizing hypocrisy in others preempt your sincere investigation of any one of their messages, and if you do, please respond to my efforts at expressing what I thought was self-contradictory on your part.

    6) Responding to incivility in kind is no purely rational act. In the words of Black Flag, “Rise above!”.

    7) I also believe we could enjoy conversation (even those not real) with each other, but preoccupied by other ends, don’t care to presume any smartness in either of us, and recommend against such categorical thinking on your part.

    8) My response to your first comment was obviously based on my interpretation. Your saying you hate white supremacy and fascism, but that you hate violence from all political persuasions, then questioning whether you can be in “the club” without playing identity politics looked to me like a tone and context of dismissal based on a particular narrow perspective, similar to when people say “all lives matter” when they see “black lives matter”.

    9) Just as “black lives matter” does not inherently suggest “only black lives matter”, people identifying any particular trend does not inherently suggest any other trend does not exist. Declaring white supremacy is a problem does not equal believing or suggesting racist black people is not a problem, or that black nationalism would not be a problem. Pointing out white supremacists tend to lean right or far right does not equal believing or suggesting violence is exclusive to the right.

    10) No matter how many racist black people may exist, their power, influence, and subsequent effect upon society are far eclipsed by that of white supremacists throughout history, and I believe, even today.

    11) Such asymmetric power balances are one reason people tend to worry about small differences. Anyone who tries can recognize huge problems throughout history have started from and/or reached insurmountable proportions through small acts.

    12) Focusing on small differences does not inherently exacerbate any problems, though particular reactions (whether by those focusing or others observing them) to that focus do exacerbate problems.

    13) Ignoring small differences prevents one from understanding the impact of small differences. People focus on race and political affiliation of criminals because many laws throughout history were created, perpetuated, and/or selectively enforced specifically to keep people of color under particular control and oppression. For an easy example, read up on the origin of laws against marijuana.

    14) You don’t know any white supremacists, but insist those people are dumb as hell. You completely failed at knowing your enemy there.

    15) I asked if you know any left leaning white supremacists exist to suggest none do, and that white supremacists tend to lean right for a particular reason, such as the fact this nation would be far from what it is if not for white supremacy. If that doesn’t make sense to you, please read about the wealth gap between white and black communities (don’t take that as me suggesting impoverished white people don’t exist).

    16) By asking, I did not suggest racism does not exist on the left.

    17) I’ve read works from minorities expressing that all of us, including themselves, are racist, so you may be right about Republicans and Democrats consisting of equal percentages of racist people. What was your definition for “racism” when suggesting so?

    18) Sorry about the prison thing. I was totally exhausted by then and should have stopped writing anything for the night, because I failed to make my intended points.

    19) I took your rhetorical suggestion that the criminal justice system is sexist against men as implication that if the criminal justice justice system isn’t sexist against men, it likely isn’t racist against black people.

    20) The point my scrambled brain failed making: statistics supporting a sexist justice system hypothesis not reflecting a sexist justice system does not mean statistics supporting a racist justice system hypothesis do not reflect a racist justice system.

    21) I don’t believe anybody in this conversation ever suggested individual behavior is not a factor in police shootings, let alone anything else involving people. Not explicitly stating it is a factor does not equal overlooking it or claiming it isn’t a factor.

    22) Myopia in any outlook hinders humanity and is sometimes a byproduct of resisting groupthink. I believe you have mischaracterized many who have mischaracterized you. That stokes division, too.

    23) Identity politics do not inherently create more division and oppression. What does are particular ways people wield and react to identity politics.

    24) Yes, we have only our subjective experience, but that’s not the same as “living in a bubble”, which implies ignorance of descriptions of others’ subjective and collective experiences. You can change the shape of your subjective bubble by thought alone.

    25) You can raise your own bar by pushing equity as much as you do equality. You can also raise your own bar by deciphering other individuals’ language. Yes, “better” is subjective, qualitative, and dependent upon intended ends, but a tiny minority of the global population start in richer positions that afford them access to all needs for a relatively comfortable life and extravagance, and many of them are born with skin color to which many systems cater. Some of those rich white men use their money and influence to craft laws that oppress minorities. That’s why people insist rich white men are problematic. Ignoring how they factor into other peoples’ suffering will not push society anywhere closer to the equality you seek.

    26) When people tell old white men to get out, the logic in the statement is the same as when people tell young black women to get out, but a difference lies in context. Much of our modern reality is the product of white people seizing and/or colonizing lands on which people of color lived, as well as stealing and incentivizing people of color from their lands, and countless people of color are still suffering the consequences. The threats faced by old white men and young black women are disproportionate, to say the least. That doesn’t excuse a categorical purge of any type, of course.

  127. Debbo 2020-06-03

    Excellent comment Caleb. Thanks.

  128. Cory Allen Heidelberger Post author | 2020-06-03

    John, you’ve got it: the Trumpists waving their flags and spouting their bromides about liberty and tyranny aren’t about any principle; they only see affirmation of their personal deplorability.

    We owe no one apologies for opposing fascism. Trumpists will owe coming generations apologies for supporting Trump, his ignorance, his recklessness, his racism, and his tyranny.

  129. jerry 2020-06-03

    Rapid City Police “Rapid City police arrest five on Tuesday night; say counter-protesters are agitating” The police know that the protesters are peaceful, and they know that those waving the treason flag are causing trouble.

  130. jerry 2020-06-03

    General James Mattis says this “James Mattis, the esteemed Marine general who resigned as secretary of defense in December 2018 to protest Donald Trump’s Syria policy, has, ever since, kept studiously silent about Trump’s performance as president. But he has now broken his silence, writing an extraordinary broadside in which he denounces the president for dividing the nation, and accuses him of ordering the U.S. military to violate the constitutional rights of American citizens.”

    trump needs to go, the sooner the better. We have a country to save and he is out to destroy it. What say you EB5 Rounds and you too Thune? Stand up and defend the Constitution you swore to protect.

  131. Ryan 2020-06-04

    caleb, another solid post. I think most of what you say I completely agree with and most of what you are saying I said something comparable, although in less patient and deferential tone. I admit I am often emotional in trying to get my point across, although I believe that the point I am trying to get across is that of reason and practicality in social and political issues.

    I disagree with a few of your suggestions, such as the fact that I should know more white supremacists before judging them as dumb. I will happily continue to judge them without introductions.

    Similarly, i disagree that I should increase my desire for “equity” as that is a code word for quota, and quotas aren’t freedom. When people talk equity, what they usually mean is that race or gender groups should be represented proportionately equal according to their percentage of the whole population, across all categories of all things. That’s impossible and that’s tyranny and that’s not a goal I have or something I support in the least. I believe in equality of opportunity. That being said, as you suggest, some people are born with more money or other privileges. Some people are born smarter than others. Some are born to abusive parents, some to loving parents. There are infinite nuances to the human experience that mean that there will never be equal footing for two people starting their lives. The only thing that makes sense to do in response is to have equal opportunities regarding the things we can control. I support equal opportunities in the law and in our cultures for education, social engagement, access to legal resources, access to health care, and everything else that can be controlled. I do not support forcing 50 percent of doctors to be male and 50 percent female. Or 50 percent of teachers male and 50 percent female. Or 50 percent of prisoners male and 50 percent female. I don’t support forcing anybody to do anything they don’t want to do just because their race or gender makes them a statistic to be used to undertake mandated “equity.” That’s crazy stuff that some people believe. It’s impossible, it’s immoral, and it’s not cool, man.

    My point with the prison system analogy with men versus women as percentages of inmates was intended to show that real life is not necessarily balanced across race, gender, age, etc., so citing a mere statistic of the prevalence of something being different than expected prevalence solely based on the the percentage of the population is not persuasive to me because nothing works quite that tidily.

    And I am a person who appreciates clarity in language, so you are right. Identity politics in a vacuum does not foster division among races and genders – you are correct that it’s what people do with identity politics that creates or increases division. I think that is true, but identity politics only exists through the words and actions of people, so I think there is no harmless incarnation of identity politics. The surest way to surrender the battle for equality is to focus on our immutable differences and suggest that people act according to some mandated racial or gender-based categories.

    You asked about my definition of racism. I don’t have a personal, subjective definition for any word, so I rely on their actual meaning – something I wish more people did. Racism is “a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race” and “racial prejudice or discrimination.” People on here call me racist all the time for advocating for equality, all the while they are spouting constant racial prejudice and discrimination, completely oblivious to their hypocrisy.

    You said “Selectively associating with people requires ignoring people. I don’t think that will lead to the enlightened society for which you claim aim.” I disagree with that. I can dismiss any benefit of associating with all sorts of groups of scummy people, like white supremacists, gangsters, sex traffickers, etc. Nothing of value to be gained there that can’t be gained elsewhere with less scum.

    Finally, even if I change the shape of my bubble, isn’t it still a bubble? We can and should all grow through diverse experiences, but we can’t be anything but what we are. We are all islands of subjectivity bumping into each other in the frothy seas, man.

  132. bearcreekbat 2020-06-04

    Ryan’s comment reflects a common misunderstanding about so-called “quotas” and equal opportunity. The comment suggests that the opposition to policies requiring that

    race or gender groups should be represented proportionately equal according to their percentage of the whole population, across all categories of all things

    is somehow consistent with supporting “equal opportunity.”

    The mistake in this analysis is in giving the quota or percentage a false meaning and impact. There is only one historical reason for so called quotas that I am aware of and that is providing evidence to determine whether there has been or currently is a denial of equal opportunity in a profession or endeavor where it is alleged that the profession in fact has denied equal opportunity on the basis of race or gender (note that this does not apply to “all categories of all things,” rather only to those where denial of equal opportunity is alleged or suspected).

    Proving a denial of equal opportunity in hiring, education or any other circumstance is no easy task absent an express admission by those groups with the ability and intent to deny equal opportunity. Indeed, in some cases the denial of equal opportunity is not intended at all but is an unintended and unforeseen consequence of a policy thought to be neutral. In either case, comparing the statistical difference from the general population to the questioned endeavor can be provide strong evidence of a past and ongoing denial of equal opportunity.

    In the search for a way to correct past denial of equal opportunity, one remedy has been to require more of a correlation between the percentages of those denied equal opportunity based on gender or race, for example, and the new hires or admissions to the profession or institution that has denied equal opportunity, i.e., quotas.

    One can certainly oppose this particular remedy, but such opposition seems quite inconsistent with claims of supporting equal opportunity. This becomes even more evident in cases where the opposition to the use of percentages or so-called quotas fails to identify an alternative remedy to correct that “past” denial of equal opportunity, or a method to identify and correct ongoing denial of equal opportunity, whether intentional or as an unintended consequence of an existing practice or policy. An analogy might be that one claims to oppose mining pollution that poisons waters, but also opposes taking any steps to clean up water that has been poisoned in the past.

    And on another unrelated, off topic, but important matter, welcome back Porter.

  133. jerry 2020-06-04

    bcb, your post’s astound me on your thoughts. This “There is only one historical reason for so called quotas that I am aware of and that is providing evidence to determine whether there has been or currently is a denial of equal opportunity in a profession or endeavor where it is alleged that the profession in fact has denied equal opportunity on the basis of race or gender (note that this does not apply to “all categories of all things,” rather only to those where denial of equal opportunity is alleged or suspected).”
    really hits it out of the park. Bravo!!

    In my opinion, for far too long, the dead end road of Ryan and Caleb, speaks volumes on how it fails all of us.

  134. Jason 2020-06-04

    Mad Dog Mattis is now a hero for speaking out against Trump? Mattis is a war criminal who served on the Theranos board in between killing innocent foreigners.

    Why do neoliberal Democrats keep using war criminal Republicans to take down Trump? Can’t they come up with a more logical approach? Can’t they attack Trump from the Left instead? Evidently not. Neoliberal Democrats watch way too much CNN, MSNBC and NPR.

  135. Ryan 2020-06-04

    bcb – I think my problem is most of the time when people use the word equity, they aren’t suggesting that broad social studies should be performed to determine what careers or industries or groups denied equal opportunity and then attempt to remedy that denial, as you suggest. To me, that thought process shows a legitimate endeavor to ensure equal opportunity.

    However, when I see “equity” being used, it is often by a person suggesting that differences in income between one person and another prove one person was taken advantage of and the other received privilege, ignoring all other factors; or it is used to suggest that there should be some pro-rata split across the board for genders or races or age groups, etc.

    To a lot of people, equity means female professional athletes and male professional athletes should be paid the same, regardless of the very different way they are viewed and supported by the general public. To a lot of people, equity means men and women should be paid the same despite men working longer hours and more dangerous jobs. To a lot of people equity means STEM careers should be made up of 50% women and 50% men despite substantially more men being interested in those fields and seeking advanced education in those fields. That kind of equity is tyrannical and I am not a fan or supporter of that kind of equity.

    If you want to use the word equity as an empirical path toward ensuring equal opportunity, I would say I agree with you, but I don’t think that is the way most people use the word.

  136. jerry 2020-06-04

    Why did trump appoint a war criminal then?

  137. mike from iowa 2020-06-04

    According to jason’s link, I make it 7 wingnut criminals including Kissinger and Schultz as war criminals and former Senate Majority leader Frist, toss in Murdoch, Patriots owner and drumpf buddy Kraft and winger Ellison and you have a murderer’s row of characters of the wingnut persuasion.

    I did not see where Mattis was charged in Theranos monkey business.

  138. jerry 2020-06-04

    The inequity of slavery is still the wound that festers. Slaves built this country and accounted for 40% of this country’s world wide exports prior to the civil war. Not to hard to see why anti fascists see this…they read. Slaves were worth more than all the gold taken from the California Gold rush.

  139. jerry 2020-06-04

    mfi, Jason does that all the time. He can’t read so he doesn’t bother checking his posts, he just tosses it up and hopes like hell no one else can read either.

  140. mike from iowa 2020-06-04

    As for naming wingnuts to lead investigations, Dems usually pick a Rep or else the koyote kerfluffle of wingnuts accuses Dems of politicizing investigations. Then wingnuts apppoint right wing nut job investigators to smear Dems in political investigations that make no attempts to ascertain facts, just looking for dirt against opponents.

    Basrr’s investigatioin into Russiagate is undertaken by staunch right wing AGs with an agenda to save drumpf’s orange butt.

  141. Debbo 2020-06-04

    This is a brief summary of the Hennepin County coroner’s autopsy of George Floyd. The entire report has been made available with the family’s consent and there is a link to it in the article. No paywall.

  142. Debbo 2020-06-04

    This includes a positive statement from each former president and from the GHWB Foundation.

  143. Ryan 2020-06-04

    So both autopsies agree this was homicide – which I think most people agree was obvious. The county autopsy says cardiopulmonary arrest inflicted by the cops was the cause of death. The family-commissioned autopsy says asphyxia, or lack of oxygen inflicted by the cops was the cause of death.

    Somebody is wrong… and that’s concerning because I would imagine these folks do lots of autopsies… so disagreement over the question of whether or not a person has signs of asphyxia seems like a big deal.

  144. leslie 2020-06-04

    Caleb: (i feel like your dentist :) Powell wrote in 1971:

    William Kunstler, warmly welcomed on campuses and listed in a recent student poll as the “American lawyer most admired,” incites audiences as follows:

    “You must learn to fight in the streets, to revolt, to shoot guns. We will learn to do all of the things that property owners fear.”

    Recall Exxon compared NASA climate whistle blower James Hansen with the Unabomber in a billboard campaign. Tell you anything about Powell? Am pimping u w/my source. Could have used NYT or Huffpo

  145. leslie 2020-06-04

    Which brings to mind torture which Republican Dick Cheney, Sec Defense/VP opened the door to todays events.

  146. Debbo 2020-06-04

    This brief piece could be very helpful to anyone who claims skin color is irrelevant or that they’re blind to color, they’re not racist but, and so on.

    It’s written by Rex Chapman. He played basketball for Kentucky and in the NBA. Now he announces NBA and college games.

  147. bearcreekbat 2020-06-04

    Ryan, I took your earlier comment that equity “is a code word for quota” at face value. Hence my discussion of quotas and the frequent misunderstanding of what they are, why they exist, and what they are intended to accomplish.

    As an evidentiary matter, “differences in income” for people of different genders or races for doing essentially the same work provides a basis to infer inequitable discrimination. It certainly is not considered the only evidence that should be considered and I have not really had much experience with people who suggest that mere

    differences in income between one person and another prove one person was taken advantage of and the other received privilege, ignoring all other factors,

    although I would expect there may well be some folks who hold that opinion. I do not recall having read that view expressed here on DFP by any of our regular commentors.

    I suppose those with that opinion could qualify as “a lot of people,” depending on how one calculates “a lot of people,” but to suggest that they are, in fact, “most people” is not confirmed by, nor consistent with, my reading and experience. Of course I remain open to consider any evidence that might support such an assertion.

  148. Ryan 2020-06-04

    Bcb, fair enough for zooming in on the word quota, even though my next sentence was an explanation of what I meant by quota. And if we want to focus on that word and ignore the obvious context I gave it, there are plenty of uses of quota other than the one you chose to use as the primary use, like sales quotas and productivity quotas. But alright.

  149. bearcreekbat 2020-06-04

    Ryan, I read your follow up sentence

    When people talk equity, what they usually mean is that race or gender groups should be represented proportionately equal according to their percentage of the whole population, across all categories of all things,

    as consistent with the misunderstanding of “quota” I addressed. But that is just me and as usual I could have been mistaken.

  150. Caleb 2020-06-04

    Debbo, thanks for showing appreciation. I felt I owed the blog that more careful response after my more belligerent comments of late.

    bearcreekbat, I so appreciate your efforts on this blog.

    Ryan, I didn’t say you should know more white supremacists before judging them. Instead I implied that in not knowing any of them, but insisting they are dumb as hell, you fail at knowing your enemy. Go ahead and judge them all you want, but please recognize that is illogical. If you suddenly found yourself stuck on top of platform and blind, with no way to reach the ground except by jumping, choosing to jump might kill you. In the same way, presuming the extent of one’s intelligence having no awareness of that person could lead to disastrous consequences. Like I’ve said before, please look into the FBI’s longstanding investigation into white supremacists infiltrating police forces around the country. People dumb as hell generally don’t coordinate that well or at that scope.

    Using “equity”, I didn’t imply anything you suggested by the word. Plus, supporting equity doesn’t mean you have to support mandates. You support equality alone, despite how little that’s changed the outcome for people of color, so you’re clearly patient about alleviating suffering, so at the very least you can support equity optional for those with more to choose giving to those with less.

    Only idiots cite a single statistic as proof of a given interpretation of something as complicated as systemic racism in economics, entertainment, justice, politics, etc. I don’t believe anybody on DFP believes in systemic racism based on that alone. Further, people’s concern isn’t as simple as expecting a different prevalence – their concern is for expected ends, ones where people aren’t wrongfully accused, charged, convicted, sentenced, imprisoned, or murdered before they have even that chance.

    You keep using the word “focus” regarding identity politics. I wonder if you presume focus of a particular scope, particular time, and/or particular effort(s). Identity politics neither inherently involves any particular focus nor suggesting people act according to mandated racial or gender-based categories (or any other categories). Identity politics can be absent that by involving mere acknowledgement of differences and requesting those exploiting the differences in ways that harm others end that exploitation and/or reimburse the exploited. That alone can raise awareness in society and give the public powers such as more effective boycotting and demonstrations.

    I wonder if you’ve oversimplified why people call you racist. I suspect nobody is opposed to simply advocating equality, but instead take your advocating for it in the way you do and in the broader conversation’s context as indication you are racist. If that doesn’t make sense to you, please look again at what bearcreekbat said about inconsistency in opposing the equity they mentioned and supporting equal opportunity.

    Apparently you completely left the “enlightened society” part of my statement out in crafting your response. The value lost by non-racist people not associating with racist people is that of the racist people observing all sorts of views non-racist people hold, and possibly letting go of their racist views.

    Yes, even if you change the shape of your bubble, it’s still a bubble. The point I implied was that by changing the shape of your bubble, you can remove yourself from a bubble shaped as Jenny implied surrounds you.

    mike from iowa and jerry, our political establishment has many war criminals in it. That our federal government has time and again prevented their trials does not make them innocent. My belief in response to Jason’s questions about neoliberal Democrats using war criminal Rebublicans to take down Trump is that those Democrats care little who is president, and are focused more on agendas usually not much scrutinized by the public, such as wars abroad and an economic system killing us all. By attacking from the left, they might actually succeed at changing those things, which would profit them less and maybe shake them from their own paradigm.

    leslie, I’ve had a long day and am facing overwhelming work in a tense time. I don’t know what you implied in your comments. Please state your points, as I’m sincerely curious and would like to respond to them. I completely accept if you’re not interested, though.

  151. leslie 2020-06-04

    C-i’ll be brief. 170 comments is a bit much.

    Humor: u mention scrambled brain. I mentioned coffee. They go together.

    Powell’s 1971 memo has a history which concerns me (thus the dentistry spoof). Thank you for your apparent good faith.

    Earlier u mentioned an issue or case we disagreed on. I dont rember but together with my distrust for Ryan and your perceived .agreement(s) with him on other threads, I am taking great caution before engaging.

    In past election run-ups Republican trolls have effectively derailed much intelligent discussion and siphoned tremendous effort from us here. Witness grdz

  152. Caleb 2020-06-04

    Thank you, leslie, for clarifying the humor and more. One positive outcome of threads lasting so long is we can possibly diminish the “speaking with strangers” effect, as in thinking our views are reinforced by what strangers say only because we don’t understand why the say and/or believe what they say.

    Yes, between the two comments, I thought you felt similar to what I did in response to that memo. I’ve read the memo many times the last few years, which I share to say my reaction to it is not a light one.

    What I recall of our disagreement: I believed corporate America was a bigger and earlier threat to civility and democracy in the US than was/is Russia. That was another sentiment I did not express lightly, as it was one informed by years of relatively intense, nearly debilitating study in my time outside of work.

    I agreed with multiple of Ryan’s points regarding how people choose a party and how that informs their beliefs and media consumption. I mentioned my agreement to preface for my disagreement with some of the conclusions he drew from those points, though.

    I lean toward the possibility grudznick writes from a narrow and shallow perspective informed by few mostly aligned sources, but my childhood development under liberal Democrat parents in a predominantly conservative Republican leaning community with which I mostly disagreed, followed by years of studying a niche interest that exposed me to a much wider view of humanity, then years of traveling/living/interacting with people adhering to all sorts of political/philosophical/theological/social/economic views made clear to me in 2016 that even if trolling is more the domain of the Republican party or people claiming that label, the Democratic party and its adherents or people claiming that label also have ways of stifling intelligent discussion, whether intentional or not, among us commoners. Please trust I abhor the Republican party as much as I abhor the Democratic party, and I do so because each party’s leaders mislead all of us, despite how concessions to their sharper followers may save their party’s face. MLK railed against three evils: racism, militarism abroad, and capitalism. The people at the top of each party share heavy responsibility in perpetuating them.

    I still don’t understand the dentist thing…maybe because I haven’t seen a dentist in three years, maybe more. I have a dentist customer who fits the stereotype about dentists’ tendency to ride a particular brand of bicycle, though.

    Ryan, I forgot to add one thing regarding people expecting different ends rather than different prevalence. That is, the different prevalence of certain outcomes for white people and black people is simply one measure providing perspective on those ends. On that note, another issue you may wish to study is the idea that algorithms made to determine sentencing of convicts were meant to be more objective than humans, and yet perpetuated much racial bias (go figure, since humans made them).

  153. leslie 2020-06-04

    C-in a less cumbersome thread we can discuss Powell, corporate v. Putin destabilization (cite?), the Pelosi you can’t forgive/forget and the issue of your agreement with Ryan, the specifics i don’t recall. Obviously there will be Blues that astray but, other than Romney, the tennative AL sen and another Republican, the entire GOP is just as guilty as the other three cops in Mnpls. Since u may be on the other side of the state perhaps one day we can chat.

  154. Debbo 2020-06-05

    Wisdom via Dr. Dr. Sheila Kennedy.
    (The University of Indiana law prof writes an excellent blog.)

    Dr. Robin DiAngelo explains in her lecture Deconstructing White Privilege,

    “To say that we are all the same denies we have fundamentally different experiences. While race at the biological level is not real, race as a social construct based on superficial features is very real with significant consequences in people’s lives. The insistence that “we are all one” does not allow us to engage in that social reality.”

    The entire post is worth reading, especially for her observation– only now beginning to be widely understood– that racism is not (just) a moral problem; it is “a system of unequal social, cultural, and institutional power.” As she writes, so long as racism is seen as an individual moral failing, the structures and institutions designed to maintain white supremacy will remain in place.

  155. leslie 2020-06-06

    Lara logan is reporting on Fox something that Antifa IS a something and apparently tucker carlson is valiantly risking career and all to get at the truth. Conservative media went with something like this in 2013 and trump’s violent tweets were epic. And Mattis is … what??

    So militias are “organized”. Antifa is “organized”. Trump is not organized. But the guys w/ AR-15s left standing after the old man and the kid with the water bottle are laying on the ground in city-central rewrite history? Bill Barr said as much.

    I just keep going back to this III% rightwing militia violent provocation video (disciplined former lewiston ID cop now an armed militia president) and his bearded partner in the tactical ball cap “all outfitted in tach gear and amped up” where they surprise and surround FBI in Malhauer Wildlife Refuge Bundy takeover. Same guys in Charlottesville VA unite the right, “defending” the Nazi/KKK 2nd amend freaks. Playing soldier with AR-15s. Kristi’s camo tach ball cap w/velcro patches DOG WHISTLES these rednecks.

    @12:00(very poor audio)

    (Same rednecks identified in short local news video)

  156. Eve Fisher 2020-06-06

    The right-wing always pushes Antifa and George Soros to cover up what’s going on in their own world of white supremacists and white nationalists. Oh, and also the world of extra-legal yet tax-payer funded military. Besides, it gets everyone fired up and hopeful that at last the apocalypse is coming, and they can be true bunker-brats! (But where will they get their haircuts?)

    Meanwhile, rRead Politico on who all those unmarked Federal agents are right now in Washington, D.C. Now THAT’S scary.

  157. Jason 2020-06-06

    Thanks for dropping off more evidence to suggest we live in a police state. We need to defund the police state. We need to increase social programs that lift up human beings. To accomplish those goals we need to continue to protest in the streets.

  158. jerry 2020-06-06

    Just like June 6, 1944, Anti-fascists are marching on fascism in Washington just like they did in Normandy. Black Lives Matter indeed, there will be no justice until we stop the racism committed on all folks of color, gender and sexual identity.

  159. Cory Allen Heidelberger Post author | 2020-06-09

    Popular Mobilization organizer and everyday anti-fascist Effie Baum explains the game Trump and other fascists are playing to distract us from the threat authoritarian Trump poses to our nation:

    Right now, in this moment, the people are a real threat to the power of the police and the power of the state and basically all of the authoritarianism that Trump has been utilizing in his time in office. And so (he is) desperate to discredit what is happening by any means necessary. Because it is growing and spreading so rapidly, they cannot contain it. So, given the public perception and stigma that already exists against anti-fascists, anti-fascists are an easy scapegoat.

    It also works to delegitimize the movement, because if they say, ‘Oh, it’s just a bunch of white kids or white supremacists, or these out-of-towners or outside agitators’ — what that does is it delegitimizes the real issues that we are dealing with and (why) these marches and protests are happening: the murder of George Floyd, the rampant murder of Black men and women across the country by police, and the violence that the state and the police inflict on Black and brown bodies every day.

    An authoritarian administration is always going to villainize those that are the most opposed to this rising tide of fascism and authoritarianism that we’re seeing both in the U.S. and internationally. By shifting the narrative away from the police brutality, they do get that public support from both sides that are clutching their pearls over broken windows, instead of focusing on the police violence that we’ve been seeing [Effie Baum, interviewed by Leah Sottile, “What Really Is Antifa?High Country News, 2020.06.05].

    Good Americans oppose fascism. Trump and his followers want fascism.

  160. Caleb 2020-06-09

    leslie, I hope we might have that conversation one day. Until then, just some clarification:

    I’m insufficiently informed to agree/disagree with your assertion and exemptions of GOP guilt, but admit I characterize the GOP as the overt death squad of the two parties marching us all to our collective demise, and I say that based on overarching, shared ambitions between the two parties’ leadership, so am not discounting the many people in the Democratic party trying hard to undo the far right shift this country has gone through since Powell and such.

    I perceive a distinction between forgiving and forgetting. I deliberately used “forget”, and since I didn’t specify before, I won’t forget she persuaded Democrats to vote yes on a bill expanding Section 702’s executive branch surveillance powers which wouldn’t have passed without those Democrats. The GOP isn’t alone in using language, such as “resistance”, against their own constituents.

  161. leslie 2020-06-09

    I too have some Saudi disinfo stuff i wanna share. Will digest and return:)

  162. Caleb 2020-06-10

    leslie, a forgotten clarification: I never mentioned destabilization in discussing corporate vs. Russian influence. I got on the subject after you shared the quote stating Russian trolls are entrenching people in ideology, and in response was only suggesting corporate influence performed the bulk of all ideological entrenchment laid upon the US populace. I don’t have a single source, but if you’re unfamiliar, I recommend studying public relations history all the way back to Edward Bernays, the ideas expressed in the books “Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media” by Edward S. Herman/Noam Chomsky and “The Age of Surveillance Capitalism” by Shoshana Zuboff, and checking out and (some overlap between the two).

    On an unrelated note, I just recently noticed the comment by John in Texas above. I’m fascinated by how I missed that one, how people can think in such simplistic and categorical ways while calling others “off their rocker”, and how nobody but Cory responded to it. Our humans brains are so tragically funny.

  163. leslie 2020-06-26

    C-do u mind pointing to date/time of your last Pelosi comment you can’t forgive? Sinful!

  164. mike from iowa 2020-08-10

    Ainsley Brainfart of Fake Noize explains (at least I think that is what she is attempting) how antifa, disguised as fish, wrap themselves in first amendment stuff and infiltrate peaceful protests to start riots. Here, you can read it for yourself…..

    Ainsley: Yes. He said if you watch most of the networks they are going to say these are peaceful protesters he said they are not telling the truth. These are really riots that are organized Antifa. Like you said use the word hijack, Steve. They are hijacking these demonstrations and they are provoking violence. He gave an interesting analogy that I thought was worth repeating. He said being like a official when he talks about the guerrilla warfare. Being like a fish, swimming in the ocean the way a guerrilla moves through the people. Hides out among the people as a fish in the ocean shrouds themselves in First Amendment activity go. Into demonstrations, shield themselves and that’s where they swim.


  165. leslie 2020-08-11


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