South Dakota Welcomes Refugees, Should Welcome More from Syria

The Washington Post compliments South Dakota with an article noting that our fair state welcomes more refugees in proportion to our population than almost every other state. We’re among a top five with North Dakota, Idaho, Nebraska, and Vermont, each of which took in over 100 refugees per 100,000 population over fiscal years 2013 and 2014.

Then I read this Facebook post from Aberdeen neighbor Rich Hilgemann:

Rich Hilgemann, Facebook post, 2015.09.11.
Rich Hilgemann, Facebook post, 2015.09.11.

True. The men who bombed the Boston Marathon in 2013 moved from Dagestan to America with their family in 2002. But the Tsarnaevs were not terrorists in disguise taking advantage of our willingness to admit refugees. According to the article Hilgemann linked, they would have been 15 and 8 when they arrived. Their mother told Russian television shortly after the bombing that her older son got involved in religious politics around 2008. The younger son (the one who survived and was sentenced to death this summer) didn’t turn to radical Islam until very shortly before the April 2013 bombing.

I can understand where Hilgemann’s concern about the danger of opening our doors to refugees may be coming from. Any time you let your neighbors in your house, there’s a chance someone will knock over a lamp or insult your guests (oh yeah, South Dakota Blogosphere Picnic today at my house! Let’s all play nicely!).

But he’s more likely repeating the political grumpiness of Rep. Peter King (R-NY), who has said President Obama’s plan to take in a measly 10,000 Syrian refugees (remember, 4,000,000 Syrians have fled the violence in their country) could lead to another Boston Marathon bombing. Sure, Syria is the S in ISIS, and Jason Ravnsborg has told us ISIS is coming to get us, but the Administration is aware of the threat of terrorist infiltration, and that’s exactly why we’re acting so slowly to help the Syrian refugees:

So far, the United States has lagged far behind several European countries in its refu­gee aid efforts, largely due to the time-consuming screening procedure to block Islamist militants and criminals from entering the United States under the guise of being legitimate refugees.

…The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has submitted more than 18,000 names to the U.S. government. But it takes 18 to 24 months for the average Syrian refu­gee to be investigated and granted refu­gee status.

Earnest emphasized Thursday that while the announcement was a way of scaling up the administration’s response to the crisis, “it does not, however, reflect the intent by the administration to cut any corners when it comes to the security protocols that are in place, prior to any refugee traveling to the United States” [Juliet Eilperin and Carol Morello, “President Obama Directs Administration to Accept at Least 10,000 Syrian Refugees in the Next Fiscal Year,” Washington Post, 2015.09.10].

Where the U.S. lags in taking in refugees, it leads in providing material support. USAID reports that since the Syrian civil war erupted in 2011 through August 4, 2015, the United States provided $4.1 billion in humanitarian assistance to Syrian refugees, more than any other country.

Given Aberdeen’s own workforce strategy, one would think Brown County would be eager to carry on South Dakota’s tradition of welcoming more immigrants. Even with 240 people a few months away from losing their call center jobs with Wyndham (and 20 more immediately axed at the local Xerox office), there are still hundreds of jobs waiting for someone to fill them in Aberdeen.

Besides, Pope Francis says, “Before the tragedy of tens of thousands of refugees fleeing death in conflict and hunger and are on a journey of hope, the gospel calls us to be close to the smallest and to those who have been abandoned.” The Vatican is taking in two refugee families; Aberdeen can take some Syrians, too. Current immigration processes will weed out obvious bad dudes. If we play our cards right—avoid paranoia and instead welcome refugees with equal opportunity to participate in the economic, cultural, and civic life of South Dakota—we won’t have to worry about radical Islam getting its hooks into our new and grateful neighbors.

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187 Responses to South Dakota Welcomes Refugees, Should Welcome More from Syria

  1. His Facebook malarkey is symptomatic of the Trumpification of the Republican Party. Facts, history, real science mean nothing. Opinion (based in one’s narrow view of religion or not) is everything. Opinions forced on others is winning. The least fact-based opinions forced on people by any means at hand is how Republicans prevail. We’ve gone beyond the dumbing down of America. The Tea Party’s work is done. We are entering The Age of Irrationality.

  2. happy camper

    Makes a person heartsick but also left to wonder how much was caused by the U.S. Like a swaggering cowboy who gets drunk and creates a big mess. He wakes, remembers nothing and thinks he’s all good. Happens over and over.

  3. Jeff Barth

    We need workers in Minnehaha as well. Both of the major hospitals are short of nurses. We could use a couple hundred nurses alone.

    We need to consider the needs of these refugees. I can only assume that many have lost family members in front of their own eyes; horrific wounds, incredible torture savagery beyond comprehension. many will have PTSD and many will be suffering from physical injuries.

    In watching the refugee flow it seems to me that many are young men of military age? Why. Who are they? Perhaps grandparents have been left behind but we need to treat people as individuals not merely as a mass of “refugees”.

  4. I completely agree, HC, that the mess in Syria and parts of Iraq are the direct result of the Bush Administration’s decision to invade Iraq. I saw a news clip on TV last week of Dick Cheney and he said what’s going on now is Obama’s fault. Perhaps some blame can be placed on his administration, too, but Cheney’s opinion is wrong. But I share the concern about taking in Syrian refugees and IS terrorists could be mixed in with people escaping Syria’s civil war. I’m not agreeing with any Republican extremists who think we shouldn’t take in any refugees. It’s just my personal concern.

    I welcome anyone who moves to the US for a better life. In fact, on Sept. 24 I am helping my Lutheran church move a family emigrating from Somalia into their new home here in Sioux Falls. And welcome them to the community.

  5. Donald Pay

    People like Hilgemann learn the completely wrong lessons from the past. Similar things were said about the Germans. What sort of name is “Hilgemann?” You look it up and you find a lot of Hilgemann’s immigrating from Germany and Prussia. Should we have not let the Germans in because years later we had two wars with them? That sort of ridiculous reasoning should have no place in America. If Hilgemann doesn’t like living in a land that welcomes immigrants, we should move somewhere else, probably not Germany, since they are taking in the refugees from Syria. Maybe he would feel more comfortable in Hungary, where he could kick little girls who just want a better life.

  6. mike from iowa

    The head of Al-Qaeda declared a holy war on ISIS over who is the real caliphate. Could get interesting if we can work with mortal enemies to get rid of mortal enemies. Been there and done that and it always comes back to bite the US in the butt.

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/al-qaeda-leader-al-zawahiri-declares-war-isis/story?id=33656684

  7. mike from iowa

    How soon certain people forget it was Raygun/Bush disastrous interventions in Central and South America that led to total disruption of many countries and sent a flood of refugees to America. The same with the Middle East. Our foreign policy is a major fault in these areas. We break them,but can never seem to fix them again.

    It is past time America owns up to our responsibilities for human suffering worldwide.

  8. Thousands of these refugees are not Muslims. Syria is a country that was much like Iraq before Cheney and Bush that allowed Christians and Muslims to coexist in a secular society. Many of these now refugees are not Muslim but are Christian. Higlemann ancestry can be examined in his name to prove he is wrong, unless he is a Nazi. You can bet he is a card carrying right wing nut that hates Obama as well.

  9. Folks in Europe are much like most folks here in South Dakota putting out the welcome signs for immigrants from Syria. South Dakota should continue to stand proud and continue to welcome those people who have lost it all. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/protests-in-support-of-migrants-expected-throughout-europe-on-saturday/2015/09/12/a1959281-32ea-4700-9a47-701c76abce01_story.html

  10. It is more than just accepting the people into our country. It means having a plan in place to help them with their transitioning, and having resources in whatever community they will live in.

    We must not forget when the U.S. accepted people from Vietnam. Their were problems, and some people resented them.

  11. bearcreekbat

    It looks to me like we have more to fear from folks who believed the falsely edited Planned Parenthood video than from any refugee.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/09/05/planned-parenthood-fire-is-tragically-business-as-usual.html

  12. Porter Lansing

    @Hilgemann … If you predict something and you’re proved wrong and then you predict it again, you’re no longer wrong, you’re a liar. The Sodak Republican Party has absolutely no credibility making political predictions. Every prediction they’re tried to convince the voters to be VERY afraid of has been a lie. Where are the death panels? When is Obama coming for my guns? When are all the Doctors going to quit? When is the economy going bankrupt? When is gas going to $7 a gallon? Where’s that sharia law that’s threatening my daughter? How about those FEMA concentration camps? Huh? And don’t try to tell me these things have happened because that’s a lie, also. WE THE PEOPLE believe you, the SODAK REPUBLICAN PARTY to be just making things up to scare old people and the chronically gullible, like your “willing to swallow it whole” voting base.

  13. So, Porter, what does that say about the majority of South Dakotans who elect a crook like racketeer Rounds, a dodo like Thune, an empty skirt like Noem and an entire state capitol full of no-brains who are incapable solving real problems and being a leader? The state GOP has figured something out. The people of the state are dumber than they are.

  14. mike from iowa

    bcb-they definitely fit the domestic terrorist label and should be hunted down and exterminated with drones.

  15. Porter Lansing

    @Tears … It says that the best and brightest hot foot it out and those with an extreme aversion to change and a propensity to fear stay.

  16. I’m old enough to remember (last summer, I believe) when Gov D and many other repubs were concerned about refugees being placed in their respective states and bringing disease and mayhem right with them.

    Again, it is about stereotyping and fear mongering.

  17. Over a 100 years ago there was a Middle East immigration to South Dakota. With it came surnames like Abdnor, Abourezk, Abdallah and Haggar and they fit right in.

  18. Porter Lansing

    I know, right? These conservatives are the “chronically contrary”, without valid analysis…just blind hate. A million three hundred thousand refugees from Southeast Asia emigrated here and 90% vote Republican.

  19. maybe it means they’re busy living, hear something over and over on the news; assume it must be true, are emotionally manipulated by ads, and since where there is smoke, there is generally fire, Hillary might be a liar; so an ORANGEMAN, mich, METROSEXUALTHUNE, or trump, cruz or some other republican with no sense for the middle class (who they don’t think pay the bills) gets elected in SD; because those busy folks wind up voting the way the lobbyists want. nothing to do w/ smart. advertising can convince anyone anything. spitballin’….

    hope u all r havin’ fun in aberdeen:)

  20. Richard Schriever

    Research says as an American – one is about 50X more likely to be killed by a police officer as by a terrorist.

    As to “assimilation” – many of the refugees – MANY – are professionals, doctors, dentists professors, scientists, engineers, attorneys and so on. Why? Radical CONSERVATIVE Islamists want to purge the intelligent and the progressive from their realm. But that fact doesn’t really fit the stereotype either I suppose. Although – it does explain the US conservative’s opposition to accepting them (they are potential liberals more so than potential terrorists).

    Finally – the Syrian part of ISIS is not reflective of it’s origins. The real origin of ISIS is in the Sunni hierarchy of the old Iraqi Army – disbanded and dispossessed by the Bush/Cheney crowd. Syria is territory they want to dominate – not their territorial origin.

  21. Deb Geelsdottir

    Let’s see, we had white domestic terrorists in Oklahoma City, white domestic terrorist pipe bombs (Kaczinski), white domestic terrorists in Colorado (Columbine), white domestic terrorists in Kansas (shooting up church to kill doctor), white domestic terrorists in Atlanta (1996 Olympics), white domestic terrorists in Colorado (theater), white domestic terrorists in Sandy Hook, . . . Is that it? Oh, there was the white domestic terrorist who was shooting or bombing women’s health clinics in the South. He hid out in the woods for a couple months I think.

    Anyway, Bring On The Syrians – please!!!

  22. thinking about Bush, his mother, and jeb. they are starting to realize what the halliburton presidency did to the world. no way will this nation could, should, will elect another one. no way is a prick like trump is gonna get the nation’s nod. he’ll bring a ventura or palin with him too. having a black president kick ass for 8 years could, and should be followed by a woman, a democrat.

  23. stupid star trek combadge

  24. deb, planned parenthood glass windows/doors were shot out with a high power rifle in rapid city. terrorism i called it back before we talked about terrorists

  25. happy, i look forward to hear if u showed up in aberdeen at cory’s, ’cause i sure can’t figure out u from your posts.

  26. Roger Cornelius

    How quickly Americans forget their own ancestry and heritage.
    The very development of this country was built by immigrants and refugees that were the great-great grandparents of Hilgemann and other closed minded bigots.
    Over the years immigrants and refugees that came to this country were not necessarily the brightest their country had to offer, they were good at murder, rape and destroying native eco-systems, which their descendants are continuing to this day.
    Truth to tell, I’m more concerned about Americans that are consumed by racial hatred and their 2nd Amendments rights than I am about a Muslim terrorists.
    In early August the Sturgis Rally was held, during that two week period 17 motorcyclists were killed because of their own recklessness, can you even imagine the outcry if terrorists had killed 17 Americans during that same time?

  27. mike from iowa

    America needs all the new Liberal voters it can get to replace the ones wingnuts are illegally removing from voter rolls.

  28. mike from iowa

    Ms Deb,the terrorist that bombed the Olympics also bombed an abortion clinic and was also the one that had help hiding underground in Carolina. Name of Eric Robert Rudolph- http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/olympic-park-bomber-eric-rudolph-agrees-to-plead-guilty

    The death penalty loving dumbass dubya regime allowed this POS to agree to plead guilty to avoid the death penalty he imposed on others. More reasons to hate dumbass dubya with a passion. I notice that very few white domestic terrorists get the death penalty for some reason.

  29. Donald Pay

    One thing that strikes me about the Republican base is how cowardly they are. On issue after issue they exude fear and an inability to think rationally in the face of largely self-delusional terror. The immigration issue is just one issue. While Republican foreign policy professionals generally supported the Iran nuclear deal, the base abandoned reason and embraced the scary scenarios pumped out by the ever-cowardly neo-cons.

    What is the cause of this constant conservative pants shitting? There is a large infrastructure that has developed in Republican and conservative “think tanks,” public relations firms and media outlets that manufactures fear, and distributes it to the base. Psychological research has shown that fear is a much better motivator than love or, even, patriotism, and that conservatives are especially prone to fear-based motivation.

    This has a practical consequence. Combine love and patriotism, and you get largely inadequate programs for vets. Combine fear and patriotism and you get a repeated and extremely bad foreign policy that generates a rush to dumb wars that generates veterans. Fear beats love, almost every time, except when you have a real leader, like no-drama Obama.

    Think about the difference between Bush’s approach to Iraq and Obama’s approach to Iran. Bush’s approach was cowardly, dumb and costly. Not only that, it was the direct cause of Iran’s rise, yet somehow the right wants to repeat the Bush foreign policy mistakes. Why? They are motivated by fear, and when you’re afraid, you don’t think things through.

    Apply that now to immigration. The conservative pants-shitting is totally irrational and fear-based, stoked by underlying racism and a well-funded fear-generating infrastructure. Under Obama, more deportations and fewer illegal crossings, yet the conservative cowards want to build a fence, and electrify it!!!!

    Generally, you get over fear by facing it. Getting to know people who are different from yourself makes you realize how cuckoo your fears are. But, again, conservatives are generally too scared to and too isolating to really make an effort. They prefer to be eternally scared.

  30. Richard Hilgemann

    Of course you conveniently leave out my concern about bringing them hear and our government bombing their old neighborhood/neighbors causing them to turn on us…

  31. It would have been sort of convenient if those concerns were mentioned in the post.

  32. happy camper

    Yes Leslie, I was there. But there was no tequila, no Republicans. No Lynn, no Larry, no Leslie. But a nice backyard and good progressive chatting.

  33. Porter Lansing

    Hear, hear Donald Pay … or should we say Senator Pay?

  34. Over at press release central, Schoenbeck has called the contributors here extreme and irrational.

    So I would posit to Lee and other Christian conservatives to frame the Syrian refugee crisis within Christ’s strong admonition given in the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

    Luke 10:25-37

  35. Porter Lansing

    Well then, let’s put a LABEL on Rep. Schoenbeck Attorney District 05 Codington ….. BEATABLE

  36. Higlemann does not even have his own thoughts on this matter, he only speaks republican just like Carson. No originality, just parroting. “I would recognize that bringing in people from the Middle East right now carries extra danger,” Carson said on ABC’s “This Week.” “I know we have a process, but how effective is it? How does it, you know, let people like the Tsarnaev brothers in here?”

  37. Richard, you were talking about a historical lesson to be learned from the Chechen conflict. The U.S. didn’t bomb anyone there. The Tsarnaevs’ resentment and radicalism did not come from U.S. interference in a tribal war.

    If we are bombing refugees’ relatives back home in Syria, maybe we ought to consider not doing that.

    Putting together a few of the comments above about owning our responsibility, we could argue that we’ve already done all sorts of damage to Syria and other nations and that welcoming refugees might be a way for us to stem retributive violence. Consider that the Syrian civil war has been linked to climate change:

    Drawing one of the strongest links yet between global warming and human conflict, researchers said Monday that an extreme drought in Syria between 2006 and 2009 was most likely due to climate change, and that the drought was a factor in the violent uprising that began there in 2011.

    The drought was the worst in the country in modern times, and in a study published Monday in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the scientists laid the blame for it on a century-long trend toward warmer and drier conditions in the Eastern Mediterranean, rather than on natural climate variability [Henry Fountain, “Researchers Link Syrian Conflict to Drought Made Worse by Climate Change,” New York Times, 2015.03.02].

    As we head to the U.N. climte change conference, poorer nations are saying they want us economically advanced nations to pay for all the harm we’ve done to their countries through our reckless exploitation of the environment:

    [Thomas M. Kostigen, “Poorer Nations Want U.S. to Pay Reparations for Extreme Weather,” USA Today, 2015.09.12].

    I understand why we might not want to let in refugees. I understand why we might not want to admit that we’ve messed up the climate. We already owe these Syrian refugees some help. It can be scary to reach out a hand to help people you’ve wronged. But reaching out that hand may be the single best way to dissuade them from seeking revenge.

  38. happy camper

    Twenty eight more refugees have drowned. Will we ever learn?

  39. Angela Merkel has opened the door to a solution to the Syria issue by giving a nod of support to Russia to end the war there. She states that it must be solved with both Russia and the United States on board working together to end the crisis. Seems like a reasonable idea.

  40. Deb Geelsdottir

    I just read an excellent commentary about the havoc neoconservative fear mongering is wreaking on American society. These are the opening paragraphs written by Dick Meyer of Scripps:

    “Unless we snap out of it soon, the legacy of 9/11 in America will be a chronic, irrational fear of terrorism that will continue to sanction wasteful spending, tragically futile military adventures and growing compromises of our civil liberties and international principles.

    “Fourteen years after 9/11, America’s terrorism policy resembles a history museum crammed with dusty old assumptions, antiquated objectives, unexamined ledgers all shrouded in a cloak of secrecy and imminent, invisible danger that vanquishes skeptical inquisition.”

    Darth Cheney and his pals, whose psychopathic greed apparently cannot be satiated, are poster children for Fear Mongers Anonymous. Here is Meyer’s clinching summary :

    “As taxpayers, we are being scammed. As citizens, our constitutional values are being compromised. As humans, we are being needlessly frightened.”

    Here is the entire article :

    http://www.startribune.com/fear-trumps-facts-in-costly-and-wasteful-terrorism-battle/326850951/

  41. Wow—that is a good summary, Deb. When we lock our doors and hide inside, we let the terrorists win. We must live in freedom, not fear, and we must show that we are not afraid to share that freedom with all of humanity.

  42. mike from iowa

    Our best hope is that this bunch of wingnut traitors in congress put the US ahead of their hate for Obama and work under his leadership to solve our problems. Abstinence only politics does not work. Just say no politics does not work. But then,neither does congress work.

    President Bernie would have a much smoother presidency if liberals get off their duffs and vote wingnuts out of office in every state and nationally,too.

  43. The Pope is in with the welcome mat as well and he has laid out an interesting dilemma for the rest of the orders. Either open the doors or pay your tax as a corporation. Wow. http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/09/14/pope-warns-religious-orders-take-in-refugees-or-pay-taxes-on-your-property/

  44. Immigration aside: After a 20 January 2015 interview with Foreign Affairs,… Jonathan Tepperman told NPR that Assad “voiced untruths with confidence”, and questioned “whether [Assad] is a spectacularly competent liar…in which case he’s merely a sociopath,…[t]his is like Hitler in his bunker when the Russians were an hour outside Berlin”.[85] Tepperman … believed a political compromise with Assad was impossible, as Assad remains as “unrepentant and inflexible” as when the Syrian Civil War began and is convinced he is winning the war militarily while “seem[ing] to have no idea how badly the war is going”.[86]wiki assad

    The Russians have sent tanks, other equipment, marines and now combat aircraft to their new military hub near Latakia in western Syria. The Americans have flown hundreds of air missions in Syria striking the Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL.

    “Our focus remains on destroying ISIL and also on a political settlement with respect to Syria, which we believe cannot be achieved with the long-term presence of Assad,” Mr. Kerry said at the start of a meeting here with Abdullah bin Zayed, the United Arab Emirates foreign minister. “But we’re looking for ways in which to try to find a common ground.”

    Philip Hammond, the British foreign secretary whom Mr. Kerry is scheduled to meet on Saturday, made a similar point earlier this month. “If there was a process that was agreed, including with the Russians and the Iranians, which took a period of months and there was a transition out during that period of months, we could certainly discuss that.” nyt today

  45. Richard Hilgemann

    Still think we should be taking in more refugees? Do you think any ISIS, Al Queada, etc. might make it through the screening process? Do you think the hawks in both parties might bomb our new refugees’ old neighbors and neighborhood causing what was noncombatant peoples into combative ones? Do you think American lives are worth that risk?

  46. larry kurtz

    white people suck.

    @ACLU 7m7 minutes ago: “It violates the Constitution for a governor to bar an entire group of refugees from coming into their states because of their nationality.”

  47. bearcreekbat

    Richard, please explain why you think an American’s life is more valuable than a Syrian refugee’s life?

  48. Richard: Yes, I do think South Dakota and America should take in as many refugees as we can. See today’s post:

    When GOP Closes Hearts and Borders, Terrorists Win

    I do believe that every screening process will have flaws. Any immigration process will allow some criminals through, probably fewer than the percentage of criminals in any general population. But our inability to achieve perfection is not a justification to sit idly by in the face of human suffering.

    If I’m riding in a big lifeboat with lots of food, I’m not going to let children drown because I can’t be 100% sure that they won’t grow up to be jerks.

  49. And Richard, if you’re worried that bombing other countries can make people mad at us, did you offer that position when we went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq? Did we sweat that prospect when we went to war with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan? (More importantly than our sweat, did that prospect come to fruition? Did dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki trigger Japanese terrorism at home?)

  50. mike from iowa

    According to wingnuts in Texas,ISIS terrorists are all over Texas because Obama wouldn’t close the border. Then we had refugee kids flooding Texas right before the last election and that was all anyone heard was it was all Obama’s fault. After the election-crickets.

    Moral of the story is to tell wingnuts to stfu when they start whining about terrorists this and terrorists that. It was their foreign [policies that created,armed and trained these terrorists and now they fear their monsters are coming to America to roost.

  51. Paul Ryan just said in a interview that we have to cut government programs because it is the biggest expense our government has . Then the President want to let more people in this country to support because there are no jobs. So even if they aren’t terrorist who is going to support them ?? I for one an against allowing refugees in on every level. Maybe the president wants to take care of them when he leaves office, which won’t be soon enough.

  52. bearcreekbat

    Here are some interesting statistics, including the point that “dog bites killed more Americans last year than terrorism.”

    http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/6-reasons-americans-should-stop-obsessing-over-threat-terrorist-attacks

  53. stacey mostaert

    What a stupid, ignorant article!!! We have homeless in this country that we don’t even take care of! We have no business taking these people in!! Why should they get our jobs? If they even work that is….

  54. Dog bites—good point, BCB!

    Ignorant? Stacey, what jobs do you think these refugees would take? Would they not create jobs with their additional consumer demand, as do immigrants in general? We had homeless people when we took in the boat people who came from Southeast Asia in the 1970s and from Cuba in 1980; should we have turned those refugees back?

    And on your backhanded dehumanizing insult to these fellow human beings, the Syrian refugees include all sorts of educated professionals who worked in Syria and will work in the countries that offer them refuge.

  55. It is insane to bring in these Syrian refugees. Muslims do not assimilate and their loyalty it to Sharia Law, not any civilized constitution. They leave a path of blood where ever they go. There is no Muslim nation on the planet that lives peacefully. They destroy any Country they infiltrate into. As we speak, they are destroying Europe. Islam is not a religion of peace, but a political system that is out to conquer the world.

    Having phony compassion about the muslims is not going to fix the problem but only show you to be easily duped. Naivety and gullibility are not virtues.

  56. This Sharia paranoia seems a relatively recent development. Did anyone freak out over Sharia a generation ago when Syrian, Lebanese, and other Muslims came to America?

    No Muslim nation on the planet that lives peacefully… when’s the last time Morocco went to war? Tunisia? Jordan? Our ally Turkey? Uzbekistan? Albania? Kuwait? Brunei? Canada, Ireland, China, and Australia have higher percentages of Muslims than the U.S.A.

    Hasty generalizations and rage toward our fellow human beings is the problem and shows you are easily duped. Hatred and fear are not virtues.

  57. Islam has been a problem for civilized nations for centuries. The Crusades were a push back from their barbaric acts and even the U.S. Marine hymn mentions fighting with the Muslim pirates that terrorized on the Mediterranean Sea. Since these times the general population has become more ignorant of Islamic tactics which caused them to soften up a bit or let their guard down on them. At present, the Europeans are learning very quickly of the havoc they cause. The terrorist acts that have recently taken place are a mere “tip of the iceberg” of what is really going on. The Muslims are taking total control of areas and have major enclaves all over Belguim, France, and UK. They are now infiltrating Sweden, German, Holland, causing the rates of crime, such as rape and theft to go up exponentially.

    Sharia Law is something real and serious. Being concerned about it is not “paranoia” as yousay, just as being concerned about your house that’s on fire is not paranoia. Actually, it is insane to ignore either case. Islam’s mission is to conquer, dominate and oppress. Islam is by no way a “peaceful” religion. In history, there is only the opposite of that rhetoric. Their methods today are to use and exploit our system and charitable nature. They depend on the gullible by a show of humility. Ultimately, they have no respect for you, me, or our culture. The Koran instructs them to be this way. In their religion, it’s called “taqiyya” Here are some real examples: http://www.muslimfact.com/bm/terror-in-the-name-of-islam/islam-permits-lying-to-deceive-unbelievers-and-bri~print.shtml

    There will be a civil war coming soon in Europe over the Muslim invasion of Europe. This is inevitable. It doesn’t matter who you are as a non muslim, they will either want you to convert , be their slave, or die. This will be the end result of their coming in to our society. They are loyal to their Koran more than to the U.S. Constitution. This would be fine if the Koran was not incompatible with the Constitution. You are being fooled by them. Keep in mind, we tend to think in the present only, but the Muslims think in terms of multiple generations when wanting to achieve their goal. What Obama is bringing over are just the seeds, but these seeds will sprout and become a menace down the road. It has happened everywhere they have gone. They exoploit our system and our benevolent nature, and when their population increases to the point they can have political influence, the real ISLAM with surface.

    Muslims are always warring and killing. If it’s not with other Countries, it is with themselves. The biggest lie is that they are a peaceful religion. My comments are not hasty. Your comments tend to deny of evil that exists in the world, or perhaps, calling good evil, and calling evil good. It is ok to hate evil. Actually, the bible indicates us to do so. I have no doubt that you would have a serious sense of fear if boarding a plane and while on it there are a small group of Muslims praying outloud for everyone to hear. Your position seems to tell the general population to deny what is plain and obvious before us and then call that “being enlightened”. What you are advocation is not in any way virtuous or charitble.

  58. mike from iowa

    I googled Don Boys, Steven. Nuff said.

  59. “They are loyal to their Koran more than to the U.S. Constitution”

    Perhaps some are, but you paint with a wide brush. There are countless Christians who are more loyal to the Bible than to the U.S. Constitution and we see it on a daily basis. That doesn’t mean all Christians feel this way, but there is no denying that many do. Should we fear them as well?

    “Muslims are always warring and killing.”

    So are Christians – religion is funny like that. People tend to use their deity as an excuse to harm others on a regular basis. Islam is a young religion and there are many struggles within it, but they aren’t really all that different from any other religion. There are good people who practice Islam just as there are bad. There are Muslims who promote peace, and there are those who use their religion to justify their hatred towards others. If you can name a religion comprised of only good people I’ll show you a religion that only one person follows.

  60. BIll DIthmer

    One mans prayer, is another mans noise.

    The Blindman

  61. Craig, you are making equivocations that don’t match up. First of all, the Koran is not compatible with the U.S. Constitution, whereas, Christianity is. Secondly, Christians are not always at war.

    I think your main problem is that you hate Christianity because Christianity stands for what is good, decent and right. You stupidly want to equate Islam with Christianity. You do this not to raise Islam, but rather to degrade Christianity. I see right through you liberals and know what you are all about. You push a culture of sleaze and corruption. You want to defend a “religion” that has brought nothing but bloodshed and misery and then compare it to religions that have given us civilized societies. I don’t buy into your castigating Christianity as equivalent to Islam for a second. The evidence is so obvious in favor of my position that you can only resort to lies and distortions.

  62. bearcreekbat

    Steven, if you really believe Christianity is more compatible with the U.S. Constitution than Islam, and not a violent religion, you might consider reading the Christian Bible from cover to cover as this might provide you with some insights about the Christian religion.

    One section that opened my eyes is Revelation 2:22-23. And consider the Passover celebration during which innocent Egyptian babies and children were slaughtered. Or the rape rules in Deuteronomy and the directions in Numbers 31:17-18 to murder male children and non-virgin females while enslaving the little girls.

    Many Christians believe that Jesus supported the horrific laws of Leviticus and other OT books.

    https://danielmiessler.com/blog/no-jesus-did-not-soften-the-old-testament-in-fact-he-did-the-opposite-and-heres-what-that-means/

    It is truly enlightening what one can learn if he reads the complete Bible from cover to cover and then reads the complete Koran for comparison.

  63. “Craig, you are making equivocations that don’t match up. First of all, the Koran is not compatible with the U.S. Constitution, whereas, Christianity is. ”

    Really? Because the Constitution includes a minor point about the separation of church and state (let’s not bother debating those actual terms aren’t in the Constitution as we are all aware of prior Supreme Court recognition of the fact and the framer’s intent including the exact phrasing written by Thomas Jefferson). Christianity requires one to place God above all else and to profess one’s belief that Jesus is Lord. The Constitution requires no such pledge and if fact doesn’t reference any deity at any time. The Constitution requires the supreme court to hold the ultimate judicial power, Christianity requires a belief that God’s laws exceed any manmade laws.

    You can argue compatibility – but there are many conflicts. I’m not sure any religious doctrine is fully compatible with our Constitution… and I suspect that was by design by the men who wrote it in the first place. Such amazing foresight they had.

    “Secondly, Christians are not always at war.”

    You’re right… not always. But searching over the past several thousand years it seems clear they have been at war more often than not. Then again Islam isn’t always at war either. Sure there are Muslims who are fighting, but they are not even a majority of the Muslims on our planet, so it is a false equivalency. You only focus on the areas which have historically been in conflict, but ignore the many that are at peace. Meanwhile self-proclaimed Christian nations with Christian Presidents and overwhelming majorities of Christians in Congress do seem to go to a lot of war. Maybe that doesn’t count though… even when the leaders tell us God spoke to them.

    “I think your main problem is that you hate Christianity because Christianity stands for what is good, decent and right.”

    Ok first of all I don’t hate Christianity. I don’t like certain aspects of Christianity, but on the whole I surely don’t hate it, so please don’t make assumptions. Second, it is merely your opinion that Christianity stands for what is good, decent, and right. I’m sure there are millions of Muslims who believe Islam stands for what is good, decent, and right. There are millions of Hindus who believe Hinduism stands for what is good, decent, and right. There are even millions of Scientologists who believe Scientology stands for what is good, decent, and right. Yet that doesn’t make it so. There are problems with every religion – I dare say none have a patent on all good in this world and none are always right.

    “You push a culture of sleaze and corruption.”

    Wow… you must be channeling Christ himself with such an uplifting positive message filled with love.

    “You want to defend a “religion” that has brought nothing but bloodshed and misery and then compare it to religions that have given us civilized societies.”

    This shows your ignorance. There are tens of millions of Muslims on Earth and you believe the only thing their religion has brought us is bloodshed and misery. What a sheltered, isolated, myopic view you hold. It would be like me suggesting Christianity has brought nothing but death and suffering based upon the actions of Pope Urban II or if you prefer modern twist… based upon the actions of Timothy McVeigh. Hey if we are going to allow cherry-picking it seems only fair.

    Steven you hate what you don’t understand. You were born in a nation where Christianity is the predominant religion and because you were raised to be Christian – *surprise!* you’re Christian. Rest assured if you were born in any number of other places on this planet chances are you would follow whatever religion was most popular there and profess it to be the one true religion. You seem to believe Christianity is special…. but I’m afraid it isn’t. It is just another religion. It has some good, it has some bad – but at the end of the day it is still just a dogma built upon historical mysteries which we can now explain via science. Nothing about Christianity is unique and nothing about it is all that remarkable. Sort of like your arguments – they are quite popular on every Donald Trump forum and are hardly breaking new ground.

  64. mike from iowa

    Someone very soon is gonna come back butt hurt and all victim-y, I predict.

    Imagine if all them terrible Muslims in all them other countries were able to get guns as easy all them terrible Muslims in America can.

  65. Steve Sibson

    “One section that opened my eyes is Revelation 2:22-23.”

    Yes your eyes are open, but the unbeliever still cannot see. Note that it is God who is responding to those who are rebelling by saying that they as humans can be like God. We as humans are not to take the role of God and use violence against unbelievers. But in Islam the believers are to commit violence against those who do not accept Allah. That is a polar difference.

    With that sad, I have to say that the foundation of this country was made to appear to be Christian, when in fact it was founded on the Masonic universal god, which violated the Bible’s divinity and exclusivity of Jesus Christ. Promoting America as the Christian nation that has replaced Israel is not in the Bible. Sadly it has caused many to follow a false gospels of dominion and replacement theology.

  66. Steve Sibson

    “You seem to believe Christianity is special…. but I’m afraid it isn’t. It is just another religion. It has some good, it has some bad – but at the end of the day it is still just a dogma built upon historical mysteries which we can now explain via science. Nothing about Christianity is unique and nothing about it is all that remarkable.”

    You say you don’t hate Christianity and seem to know so much about it. Yet you denied Jesus Christ who said:

    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

  67. Knowing about something doesn’t automatically equate to hatred Steve. I know a lot about bananas… but I like a good banana.

  68. mike from iowa

    Bart Simpson said,”Don’t have a cow,man.” Bart is the light and the way.

  69. Good point-by-point refutation, Steven. You recognize very clearly how Steven fails to advance a coherent argument. Instead, he fabricates facts that don’t exist, inaccurate and baseless assertions against your motives and feelings about Christianity, to fuel an argument that he can’t win when confronted with reality. Steven is doing talk-radio karaoke, not responding to the actual arguments presented and acknowledging the contradictions in his own language.

    Muslims are always warring and killing. Christians are always warring and killing. Both statements are equally hasty generalizations wrapped a kernel of truth, that adherents of all worldviews fail to live up to their better principles.

  70. caheidelberger. .. big issue with you is you do not want to hear anything or accept anything that is contrary it goes against your narrative. So when you hear things you do not like you flippantly dismiss it. I mentioned what is happening in Europe. You ignore it like it doesn’t exist. This is a very dangerous mindset. It is the mindset of a liberal. Liberalism is the greatest enemy of the United States. The Middle East is in a turmoil Europe is in a turmoil. The United States is very close to being in turmoil. This is all a result of widespread liberalism. Liberals control the media. Liberals control public education. Liberals control the entertainment industry. Liberals even now have control of the science Industry. The mess in this country and throughout the world as a direct result of rampant liberalism. The country is in such a mess today we can’t even agree on which bathroom people must use.

  71. bearcreekbat

    Wow Steven that is quite an assessment of “liberalism.” Here’s what the encyclopedia Britannica says about “liberalism:”

    “Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others; but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty. . . .”

    http://www.britannica.com/topic/liberalism

    After you read the Christian Bible and the Koran, perhaps you might take a gander at the full Britannica article to try to get an understanding of the “liberalism” before you make such unusual and factually questionable generalizations.

    And here’s one that Sibby might like:

    http://www.liberalamerica.org/2015/03/17/5-near-identical-jesus-christ-myths-that-predate-jesus/

  72. The opening of the borders to anybody and everybody is a disregard for the country’s citizens. This is not doing as a government is called to do which is to protect its people. The Liberals today are advocating for open borders and other Lawless behavior is being overlooked, such as sanctuary cities too promiscuous Behavior which is promoted in public schools that are run by liberals. Your liberal agenda is a wrecking ball to civilization.

  73. mike from iowa

    The Middle East is in turmoil because of you F#$%ING right wing nut job,fauxknee damn kristians wanting to bring about the end of the world!!
    You can take your phony kristian sharia beliefs and shove them where the sun don’t shine! Have a nice day.

  74. bearcreekbat

    Steven, which borders do you mean? The borders between South Dakota and surrounding states? Perhaps there is someone in Minnesota or Nebraska that intends harm to our own South Dakotans. Had Florida closed its borders to New York could it have avoided the recent attacks by the New York born and raised killer?

    We really are quite fortunate to live on a continent with neighbors to the north and south who are our allies rather than our enemies. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to change that by building fences and demonizing people just like you and me. Might it be more reasonable to treat our neighbors as allies that can work with us to identify and incapacitate people who mean us harm, rather than build walls and painting our neighbors with a broad brush as the enemy?

  75. bearcreekbat

    mfi, Sam Bee came up with a new description of “where the sun don’t shine.” She told someone to get out the door and “don’t let it hit you where the good lord split you.”

  76. owen reitzel

    Steven you might want to get back on your meds. I know of no liberal advocating an open border. Just immigration reform. Maybe you could provide a link proving your point.
    What lawless and promiscuous behavior is going on in schools? That way I could warn my wife-a teacher. Maybe you could provide a link to prove your point.

  77. mike from iowa

    Good one,Bear. OT-what did you think of the Scotus ruling yesterday that an illegal search is made all better if the suspect is found to have an outstanding warrant-after the fact? Ms Sotomayor was not enthralled with the majority opinion.

  78. bearcreekbat

    mfi – the ruling sucked. I agree with Sotomayer.

  79. Darin Larson

    Steven says: “The opening of the borders to anybody and everybody is a disregard for the country’s citizens. This is not doing as a government is called to do which is to protect its people.”

    First of all, I’m not sure who you are arguing with that has advocated for opening the borders “to anybody and everybody.” 10,000 Syrians over a number of years is a drop in the bucket of the humanitarian crisis that has unfolded in the Middle East. It is not even in the same zip code as opening the borders to anybody and everybody.

    Furthermore, after your rants on Christianity, your second sentence seems to forget the Christian part of our country’s heritage. What Would Jesus Do? Is there any doubt that Jesus would help the refugees? Were we not called to Love our neighbors as ourselves? Were we not called to help the poor and hungry and downtrodden?

    I get the impression that that your version of civilization does not match up with the Christian ideals that you seem to espouse. If your Christian faith does not inform your views on helping others, what good is it? James 2:14-26

    Faith Without Works Is Dead
    14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

  80. You people on here refuse to have an adult conversation. Your snide remarks an attempt at belittling is a sign that your ideology will not allow you to enter into the realm of reality. This is the danger of liberalism. We have so many infected with it today that it is a real threat to our country.

  81. owen reitzel

    whooo Steven. might want to recheck what you’ve posted. who’s acting like the kid in the room? better look in the mirror

  82. An adult will deal with the reality of what Islam is doing in the world. I mentioned Europe and no one comments or says anything about what Islam is doing in Europe. I mentioned what the Quran says about taqiyya.. no one comments on that. I only read comments of the misuse of scripture and the flippant dismissal of the real issues.

  83. mike from iowa

    Somebody hurt your widdle fee-fees,Steven? Put some intelligent,coherent information links where your over active mouth is,bud. Every problem you have whined about can be traced right back to the past three wingut presidents and their screwed up, pro-Israel, Middle East foreign policies.

    dumbass dubya really upset the apple cart with his decisiopn for a pre-emptive war in Iraq that destroyed the balance of power in that region and threw dominance to Iran. There’s your problem. Go get ’em.

  84. Steve Sibson

    BCB, thanks for the link. Here is one I found for you:

    http://www.focalpointpublications.com/ArticleReligion2-1/ArticleReligion2-1.html

  85. If you want to talk about whining and complaining that would be taking the position of blaming Bush or blaming Israel for the problems in the Muslim communities in the Middle East. Islam is the problem in the Middle East not Israel or bush. Islam is a wretched religion and political system that is oppressive to not only his own people but to the rest of the world.

    When Obama took over in 08 mission of Iraq was fairly stable. It is Obama’s policies as well as telegraphing what he was going to do in the future is what caused the breakup and Chaos that we now see in Iraq with ISIS. Who was it that called Isis the JV team? Who is it that protects and defends Islam in the wake of Islamic terrorism in the world?

  86. mike from iowa

    Obama wasn’t sworn in until Jan of 2009 and Iraq was nowhere near stable. They had no functioning government-thanks to no planning by wingnuts, they had virtually no utilities or water or anything else thanks to shock and awe wingnuts. You had better read some realtime history and not some fantasy Islamophobic propaganda.

  87. Your defensive of Obama really shows what a fool you are. Obama hates America and is the worst and most dangerous president this country has ever had in it’s history. When Bush W left office Iraq was in a stable situation there was no Isis Al-Qaeda was contained the Iraq citizens were voting. American soldiers were there to maintain the peace. Though things were not perfect in Iraq, it would be unrealistic to expect such a thing. Saddam Hussein was a ruthless dictator that oppressed his people and tortured his people and gassed his own people so no real harm done by removing him.

    I often wonder how you extreme leftist liberals which I see on this forum get so brainwashed and delusional as you do. Have our Public Schools gotten so bad and full of propaganda? The feminization of the American male has taken a real effect.

  88. Steven…Steve Sibson, got it

  89. Hey, Steven, reality check: tell me what liberals control here in South Dakota. Tell me how many Syrian refugees have committed crimes in the United States.

    And tell me what “the feminization of the American male” has to do with any analysis of immigration policy. Is that really all you came here to do, to play a tough guy? It sounds like you’re just rehearsing all those lines you’ve learned from your selective media. Do you feel as big and loud as Bill O’Reilly yet?

    Tough guys don’t live in constant fear… and they don’t need talk radio and Fox News (or MSNBC, or Dakota Free Press) to tell them what to think and say.

    I am not afraid. And contrary to your argumentative style, I am not some general label who fits into your pre-digested categories. I am an American who recognizes that American values demand that we mobilize our wealth to help those in need, to be beacons of humanitarianism and liberty, and to do so courageously, even in the face of the likelihood that some of the people we help (and this is universal, not limited to brown people of different faiths) will let us down.

    I’m not a tough guy, Steven. But I’m an American whose embrace of American values is more likely to win the hearts and minds of the vast, persuadable body of humanity overseas and particularly those who need our help and will remember for generations who offers them an open hand (that’s me) and who shakes at them a fist (that’s you).

  90. Mr. H, you’re as tough as any other your size, sir. I put you up there way beyond Mr. Nelson in toughness.

  91. In order to get my thought process across to the readers on here, I must back up a few steps otherwise we will be doing nothing but name-calling.

    It is quite obvious that this site leans toward a leftist agenda. For me I say I would lean in the opposite direction.

    I do get frustrated with the lefts position and ideology, because I see it based on lies distortion and leads to chaos and destruction. For this reason I acknowledge that I do tend to get a bit testy when dialoguing with people on the opposite end of the political Spectrum. Therefore I will try to temper my comments and I hope on your end you will tend to consider the bases from where I come from.

    I want to start by making an analogy as to where I see the how the leftist mindset is flawed.

    I wish to be a quarterback in the NFL. Although I lack in size and in speed and in talent, I should have the position of quarterback in spite of this, because it is my right that I should be awarded the position of quarterback in spite of my shortcomings. Why should I be denied the experience and the glory of being an NFL quarterback?

    In my analogy that I just mentioned I suspect the readers here will say we are not that ridiculous and senseless we have enough understanding to know that everybody cannot be an NFL quarterback. Keep in mind though in all analogies there is always an element of exaggeration in this exaggeration it’s not just pure hyperbole but the exaggeration is to emphasize a certain point and to get it across to the readers.
    As a human race we are created equal in the sense we have equal value before God. But we do not have equal talents among ourselves. In life we learn this and it is often considered the School of Hard Knocks. In life we can respond to this in at least two ways. 1 is we can simply cry foul this is not fair I have my rights. This sort of reaction breeds a class envy and those that adopt this way of thinking are very much less likely to be happy and content in their life. The other reaction is to accept and be content with the talents that God has given me and in doing this one is not only content with what they have they are also inspired and appreciative of what others have.

    Now some might think what does this have to do with Syrian refugees Coming to America or not? First of all I see the display of compassion buy some to not be true compassion but rather false compassion. This false compassion is rooted in this idea that everybody is equal, and I have a better position than somebody else because I had an unfair advantage, or someone around me Must Have Cheated or done something wrong to get this advantage. What does this mindset has a propensity of doing is to produce a false guilt. This false guilt will also produce this idea of white privilege. When a person is plagued with this idea of white privilege they will do things in the name of compassion but in reality it is akin to suicide. Therefore this would not be true compassion. Compassion and mercy and charity do not originate from guilt. What happens when it does is that we lose all sense of sound reasoning.

  92. mike from iowa

    I wish to be a quarterback in the NFL. Although I lack in size and in speed and in talent, I should have the position of quarterback in spite of this, because it is my right that I should be awarded the position of quarterback in spite of my shortcomings.

    White privilege pure and simple.

  93. Steve Sibson

    “I am an American who recognizes that American values demand that we mobilize our wealth to help those in need”

    Cory, in case you have not noticed, America is in debt by the trillions, and growing rapidly. And the so-called “American values” you represent are designed to destroy traditional American values. That is why you are on the left and in stiff opposition to conservatives who want to restore traditional American values. You statement also promotes coveting and that is not a traditional American value.

  94. We are no more in debt than the man in the moon. The beautiful thing about American debt is that it is owned which is much the same as the debt load you carry Sibson. Debt is good as it is able to actually produce a means of ownership to further economic development. If you take a look at South Dakota’s “balanced budget”, you can actually see what bullpuckey really is. The “balanced budget” is gifted by the taxpayers of the United States. What the right understands perfectly is that debt is a good thing, they just like to preach government overreach to the rubes. I see that it is working for both the Steven’s.

  95. Darin Larson

    Steven, you said that “There is no Muslim nation on the planet that lives peacefully” and “Muslims do not assimilate and their loyalty it to Sharia Law, not any civilized constitution.”

    There are many examples refuting your ignorant statements but let’s look at Indonesia. Indonesia is the 4th largest country on the planet in terms of population with more than 258 million people. Indonesia is the largest majority Muslim country. 87% of people in Indonesia are Muslim. Indonesia has the right to religious freedom written in their constitution.

    Indonesia has lived in peace with its neighbors since it gained independence from the Dutch in 1949. Out of 34 provinces in the country, they have not instituted any form of Sharia law except recently in one province.

  96. Darin Larson

    Steven says: “That is why you are on the left and in stiff opposition to conservatives who want to restore traditional American values.”

    This sounds a lot like code for your version of Sharia law. But you are not trying to change the law to mandate a biblical perspective on science or creationism or fighting to maintain Christian influences on our government? Surely not.

  97. Porter Lansing

    USA NET WORTH
    “Don’t be duped and misled by Republicans who can’t stomach the elderly, poor and disabled getting any help up the ladder of life. It’s how the right keeps score and standing down on the necks of the disadvantaged seems to inflate their self-esteem.”-pl
    ~Net worth is the sum of assets (both financial and tangible) minus liabilities for a given sector, such as the USA. Net worth is a valuable measure of creditworthiness and financial health since the calculation includes both financial obligations and the capacity to service those obligations.
    ~ USA is $17 trillion in debt with a net worth of approx. $270 trillion. Drop the zeroes and imagine you had $270,000 in the bank and you just bought a used pickup for $17,000 and that’s your only debt.
    Hardly a bad situation, in fact it’s an excellent balance sheet. USA’s oil, gold and land assets alone are worth twenty times our debt.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/11/05/the-us-government-is-absolutely-not-16-trillion-in-the-hole/#8089b8c2293f
    PS … notice how the “Trumped” up nat’l debt isn’t even a talking point in this election cycle because it’s been debunked thoroughly as a Republican sham and deception.

  98. Two Steven’s. Debt is good. I am sure you will one day want to retire, do you think your Social Security will be enough for that? Without debt, http://z-news.xyz/fitch-negative-interest-rates-will-blow-up-the-global-pension-system/ Not pretty is it?

    The other Steven, you may want to do some investigating before you just say stuff either in a liberal sense or the other guys. Here is something else about Muslim countries http://islamandhomosexuality.com/5-muslim-nations-gay-legal/ I know I know, where the hell is Albania?

  99. Porter Lansing

    If that link doesn’t respond here it is again, or just GOOGLE – USA is absolutely not $16 trillion in debt Forbes ….. http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/11/05/the-us-government-is-absolutely-not-16-trillion-in-the-hole/#52e8588f2293

  100. Steve Sibson

    “A balance sheet needs to include all of the productive assets that are owned. And this balance sheet just doesn’t include the most valuable one that is owned by the Feds.”

    That is from Porter’s link. So what to you call an economic system where “productive assets” are owned by the government?

    And:

    “total fossil fuel resources owned by the Federal government are valued at over $150 trillion alone”

    I suppose you liberals have not figured out that your socialist government as a financial stake in the evil fossil fuels.

    My solution…sell the oil, pay down the debt, and give us all a tax break as we eliminate federal departments that are beyond the enumerated powers of the original Constitution. And then tell Hillary to pound sand when see starts paying favors to those who are lining her campaign chest with 10s of millions.

  101. Steven: “Liberalism is the greatest enemy of the United States.”

    Really? I thought radical Islam was the greatest enemy. A few weeks ago it was transgenders in Target bathrooms, and a few weeks before that it was that drug company CEO who bought the only copy of that Wu Tang Clan’s album. Heck now you’re telling me it is liberalism… who knew?

    Steven: “Liberals control the media.”

    Hahaha… that’s great news! Rupert Murdock, Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, and Larry Solov will be so incredibly happy to hear it!

    Steven: “Liberals control public education.”

    Thank Goodness George W. Bush had the foresight to give us the No Child Left Behind bill to pre-empt those pesky liberals trying to teach everyone Yoga and mandate sensitivity training for all 5th graders!

    Steven: “Liberals even now have control of the science Industry.”

    They say you learn something new every day. Today I learned that science is an “industry” that can be controlled. That probably explains why liberals are so open in their support for the Periodic Table and why they insist the “theory” of gravity is a thing. Darn libbies.

    Steven: “The opening of the borders to anybody and everybody is a disregard for the country’s citizens.”

    I agree – we should have put up a wall between North Sioux City and Sioux City YEARS AGO.

    Steven: “Obama hates America and is the worst and most dangerous president this country has ever had in it’s history.”

    Yea you’re probably right. Leading us out of recession, turning the auto industry around, over 70 months of positive job growth with more than 14 million new jobs since taking office, reduced deficits, an attempt to protect the middle class, passing legislation to offer healthcare to millions more citizens, eliminating Osama Bin Laden and Moammar Gaddafi, boosting fuel efficiency standards for our cars and trucks, increasing nutritional standards for school lunches, expanding health insurance coverage for children, and signing a law to allow guns to be carried in federal parks.

    Man that guy must just hate America. He is just so dangerous! I bet he probably kicks puppies in his free time too.

    Now before you get mad about me not being serious, just keep in mind there is no way to be serious about such idiotic comments. Anyone who makes those types of comments and actually believes them isn’t really on the level where they could ever be taken seriously. They are simply too distant from reality and too ignorant of the real world. These are the type of characters that only exist on the Internet, because that is the only forum where their words can be understood without being continually drown out by logic, reason… and a bit of laughter.

  102. Craig it is about cause and effect. I am not changing my position at all as you intimated. The result of liberalism is Obama, Hillary, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi etc.
    Other results of liberalism are open borders, welfare state, victimization, immorality, dependency, collectivism, communism, tyranny, misery, death.

    Examples of liberalism are Detroit, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea, Greece. As we speak we are witnessing the downfall of Western Europe in countries such as Germany, Sweden, France, Belgium, Holland. These Western European countries are breaking down because of rampant liberalism. Their false guilt and phony compassion have led to a Muslim invasion. Islam lies in wait in order to take advantage and exploit weakness.

  103. Steven, that last response shows your flaws. You ignore reality and instead resort like Ayn Rand to comfortable abstractions that you can more easily shape to your emotional preferences to protect your worldview. “Class envy… false guilt… suicide…”—you’re not even making sense. You’re not even communicating—i.e., using words that create common understanding with others. You’re just showing the dense web of fuzz in your head that keeps you from seeing that your words don’t match reality… which Craig aptly points out with his rebuttal.

    Your bleat about the apparent bias of this website. I do have a hard bias… toward fact, toward practical problem solving, and toward American values. The fact is that there is no evidence that Syrian refugees pose a security risk any greater than numerous other policies that America engages in. The practical problem is that hundreds of thousands of people have been driven from their homes by war and need help. The American values in question are humanitarianism and liberty, which we can offer in great quantities, much to our own benefit.

    As a liberal blogger advocating an Emma Lazarus approach to the tired, poor, and huddled masses, I’m advocating traditional American values and sensible foreign policy. You, Steven, are advocating being selfish, fearful, and weak.

  104. “Islam lays in wait..”

    Personifying a religion to make it sound like a ninja? NICE.

  105. Nitpicking my comments because of imperfect Clarity shows or reveals that you have no defense.

  106. Steve Sibson

    “The fact is that there is no evidence that Syrian refugees pose a security risk any greater than numerous other policies that America engages in.”

    The facts say otherwise Cory:

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2016/01/07/muslim-male-refugees-are-raping-women-in-europe-n2100918

    And we want to bring them here and add the right for these males to put on a dress and walk into the girl’s restroom?

  107. Don Coyote

    @cah:”As a liberal blogger advocating an Emma Lazarus approach to the tired, poor, and huddled masses, I’m advocating traditional American values and sensible foreign policy.”

    Long time editor of The Atlantic Monthly, Thomas Bailey Aldrich does a superior job of putting voice to traditional American values and the people’s concerns on unrestricted immigration in his 1895 poem “Unguarded Gates”. The second stanza especially:

    “Wide open and unguarded stand our gates,
    And through them presses a wild motley throng
    Men from the Volga and the Tartar steppes,
    Featureless figures of the Hoang-Ho,
    Malayan, Scythian, Teuton, Kelt, and Slav,
    Flying the Old World’s poverty and scorn;
    These bringing with them unknown gods and rites,—
    Those, tiger passions, here to stretch their claws.
    In street and alley what strange tongues are loud,
    Accents of menace alien to our air,
    Voices that once the Tower of Babel knew!”

    http://www.bartleby.com/248/689.html

    Although I’m rather fond of the first half of the third stanza:

    “O Liberty, white Goddess! is it well
    To leave the gates unguarded? On thy breast
    Fold Sorrow’s children, soothe the hurts of fate,
    Lift the down-trodden, but with hand of steel
    Stay those who to thy sacred portals come
    To waste the gifts of freedom.”

  108. Darin Larson

    North Korea is an example of Liberalism?????????????????????

  109. Steve Sibson

    “O Liberty, white Goddess!”

    How pagan. Which should say, “O Licentious, white Goddess!”

  110. As I said liberalism leads to tyranny. North Korea has a tyrannical government. Liberalism believes in big government and government control in most aspects of Our Lives. This is North Korea and this is liberalism. North Korea has gun control. Liberals want gun control. North Korean government provides the people’s needs. Liberal policies strive to provide needs for the citizens such as housing food assistance free education xcetera. Liberalism leads to socialism socialism leads to Communism communism leads to tyranny. Tyranny leads to poverty and misery. Liberalism in the United States is on the trajectory to be with North Korea is today.

  111. Darin Larson

    I could just as well say that conservatives in the US want tight border controls and a wall. North Korea has tight border controls and a wall.

    Too much wingnut talk radio leads to brain atrophy which leads to nonsense.

  112. Steve Sibson

    Darin, all countries regardless of political/economic structure should have tight border controls.

  113. Sibson’s logical fallacies read like an LSAT spot the flaw LR question.

    If liberal ->tyranny
    North Korea -> tyranny
    ergo North Korea -> liberal

    That’s not how a syllogism works, friendo.

  114. If liberals continue to have their way in this country they will build a wall too, but the wall will be to keep people in, not to keep illegals out.

  115. mike from iowa

    Liberals break down the barriers and chains from the oppressed-everyone who isn’t white and wingnut.

    It is my fondest wish that HRC sets up tribunals and hangs every wingnut in congress and the senate for treason and jay walking.

    Telling foreign heads of state not to do business with our legally elected Potus is treasonous and punishable by death.

  116. mike from iowa

    Lady Liberty is a lesbian. Any woman that tall just has to be a lesbian. She’s a lib,too. Otherwise she would have a an AK-47 in her hands and wingnut pols suckling at her breasts.

  117. mike from iowa

    Wingnuts in congress refuse to do gun control, so they have decided to spy on everyone’s browsing habits on the internet. More small gubmint brought to you by wingnuts.

  118. bearcreekbat

    Did you ever notice how difficult it is to reason with folks who ignore standard and widely accepted definitions of words, instead substituting some new and different definitions that they think accords with their worldview? The word “liberal” comes to mind when reading Steven’s comments.

  119. It is fine to respect village idiots and give them opportunity to express themselves, but for the sake of intelligent society, it is also appropriate to take away their megaphones and have them take their conversations to the hall.

  120. mike from iowa

    Did you see how dems had to sit on the floor in congress because wingnuts hid their chairs and then turned off the cameras so no one would know how mean wingnuts are?

  121. mike from iowa

    Seriously, has anyone figured out what Steven’s problem is?

  122. Okay then take out the word liberal and replace it with the word leftist. There, problem solved.

  123. Mike isn’t it a shame that certain politicians want to take away law-abiding people’s rights after an Islamic terrorist kills 49 people? Can you say Islamic terrorism?

  124. bearcreekbat

    Steven, that really doesn’t solve the problem. When someone decides to label an entire group of people by using or creating whatever term he believes to be insulting or pejorative, that still makes it difficult to reason with him.

    How does one get anywhere if he refuses to ever make a left hand turn? Only going right would seem to lead to going in circles and never getting anywhere. I can’t help but wonder if one could make greater progress by discussing issues rather than labeling folks this, that or the other “word of the day” that is intended only to disparage and insult?

  125. Roger Cornelius

    mike from iowa, I googled that Don Boys, what a propaganda machine, whatever disease Sibson and Steve have, Boys has it to.
    Yesterday Senate republicans gave the right to anyone on the terror watch list to legally purchase a gun, that doesn’t just include Islamic terrorists, it includes all terrorist.
    When the next mass shooting happens and we start counting bodies we can likely be able to thank a republican senator.
    I seriously wonder why it is that republicans want to legally arm terrorist, the same group that they say we are at war with.

  126. Guns did not cause the shooting in Orlando. The Killer of Orlando was interrogated by the FBI. It is the incompetence of this Administration that is at fault. Instead of blaming guns and law-abiding citizens you need to blame Obama and Loretta Lynch and administration for not doing their job. Obama and Lynch have blood on their hands.

  127. Darin Larson

    Steven, guns did not cause the shooting, but your rightwing refusal to have reasonable limits on the ownership of assault rifles and large ammo clips along with your refusal to support reasonable background checks did enable the killer to kill many more people than he otherwise would have. In addition, had you and your NRA buddies supported more extensive background checks the FBI might have been able to intervene before the massacre. The blood is on the hands of the NRA but you don’t give a rip!

  128. Roger Cornelius

    Everyone knows that guns don’t kill people, that is why they are never used in wars.

  129. It’s pretty sad to live in a country where you pause for a moment before going someplace like the mall with your child and wonder if you’ll be safe from a mentally ill ammosexual.
    The latest polls say the majority of Americans want a ban on semi-automatics. Too bad the what the people want doesn’t matter to lobbyists.

  130. bearcreekbat

    Great point Roger!

  131. What can I say Roger you have me so stumped.

  132. Darren they have very strict gun laws in Paris and that did not stop the terrorist shooting there. You must understand Darren only the law-abiding citizens obey laws criminals do not.

  133. Jenny those are your freedoms that you are losing. Not only your freedoms but your safety as well. The liberal politicians have set this table for us.

  134. Roger Cornelius

    Steven,
    You must understand Stephen, Darren spells his name Darin.

  135. And, Jenny, that is the life you are likely to lose more than in any other advanced country in the world.

  136. Stephen and Anne are so full of it. I want real safety and freedom from the gun horny mentally ill ammosexuals that are courtesy of the NRA.

  137. And blaming the liberal politicians when it is the right wing that won’t find common ground for any gun control reform.(?) Stephen doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

  138. I meant Steven.

  139. Darin Larson

    Steven, we have very strict laws against murder in this country. That does not stop murder. Should we get rid of the laws because only law abiding citizens don’t commit murder?

  140. Darin Larson

    Furthermore, should we make it easier for people to commit murder by allowing them to acquire military grade hardware without a background check?

  141. Darin Larson

    It is interesting but not surprising that the GOP and Steven types now blame Obama for Iraq and the hornets nest that is the Middle East. They have seemingly forgotten that Bush decided to invade Iraq on trumped up intelligence of WMD’s which caused us to lose thousands of American lives fighting a war we should have never undertaken, and spending trillions that were wasted down a rat hole. Not only did Bush trump up the WMD evidence as an excuse for war, but his administration was totally unprepared to put Iraq back together again.

    The GOP has spent all this time and money on Benghazi while the greatest con-job in modern history gets swept under the rug. Then they go after Obama for not putting humpty dumpty back together again.

    And Steven’s claim that Iraq was relatively stable when Obama took office if laughable because it ignores the fact that we had over 120,000 troops in Iraq when Obama took office. The reason it hadn’t blown apart yet is that we were holding it together with the biggest and best military in the world.

  142. Jennie I’m pretty sure Isis hopes that we have more gun control in this country as well just like you do. Also if the nation as a whole had a mindset like mine they would be the ones that would be pretty damn scared.

  143. The stupid Democrats in the house are acting like three year old spoiled brats. It’s utterly disgusting.

  144. Roger Cornelius

    Steven,
    Can you tell me why republicans in the senate want people on the terror watch list to be able to buy military grade hardware? How is that good for America?

  145. Roger Cornelius

    republicans in the house and senate have been acting like pouty little three year olds for the past 8 years.

  146. Darin Larson

    “Isis hopes that we have more gun control.” More gun control? Doesn’t that imply that we have had some gun control? The assault weapons ban expired and we have a gun for every man, woman and child in the US. You can go to a gun show or any corner in a big city and get a gun with no background check in about 5 minutes.

  147. Darin Larson

    Is Thune going to oppose the rank censorship of the C-Span coverage of the House of Representatives sit in? I would think a letter would be in order.

  148. Roger Cornelius

    Darin,
    C-Span won the argument with Paul Ryan and they are on the air again.

    Only republicans would think it okay to censor Americans, especially from the United States Capitol.

  149. Steve Sibson

    “Can you tell me why republicans in the senate want people on the terror watch list to be able to buy military grade hardware? How is that good for America?:

    Roger, can you tell me why they are in America in the first place?

  150. For the same reason you are Sibson, to have a better life courtesy of Roger and his ancestral roots.

  151. mike from iowa

    Darren they have very strict gun laws in Paris and that did not stop the terrorist shooting there

    We have strict laws covering crimes in America,but that doesn’t stop criminals from criming-including murder with assault rifles. Mateen wouldn’t have been able to kill 49 if he was armed with only a pocket knife. No sirree. Guns, which are designed to kill max amount of people in minimum time, allowed this pissant to commit mass murder. Blood is on your hands, Steven.

    As for why Mateen was allowed to get weapons it is because your brethren wingnuts in congress block meaningful gun control such as preventing terrorists from buying guns. They just blocked it again.

  152. I agree, Steve. Any refugee that is against LGBT rights and raises their child to be a messed up individual committing mass murder should be extradited back to their home country.

    The Orlando’s shooter gay lover has spoken to the media and has told how the shooter would comment on his father being a very anti-gay outspoken hater.
    This shooter grew up to be a very self-loathing because he felt like he could not come out of the closet to his very anti-gay dad and so he lived a lie being married to a woman.
    The shooter’s gay lover said the shooter never mentioned ISIS at all.
    Imagine what the world would be like if religion (Muslim AND Christianity) didn’t spread anti-gay hate.

  153. Steve Sibson

    Jenny, you are believing propaganda. Look at what the left was trying hide from us:

    Something wicked happened in Idaho’s rural Magic Valley. The evil has been compounded by politicians, media, and special-interest groups doing their damnedest to suppress the story and quell a righteous citizen rebellion.

    Police and the local prosecutor’s office grudgingly confirmed that an investigation had begun into the incident. The victim: a mentally disabled five-year-old girl. The alleged perpetrators: Three boys, ages 7, 10, and 14, from Sudanese and Iraqi immigrant families (predominantly Muslim) who have been in the country for less than two years — all but confirming that they are refugees.

    The people who should have been asking tough questions — like, you know, mainstream journalists — have spent more time attacking local whistleblowers and bloggers than they have spent demanding answers and holding public officials accountable.

    Why? Consider the backdrop. Residents in Twin Falls have been worried about the impact of an increasing influx of refugees, many from jihad-coddling countries, over the past several years.

    Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/436915/twin-falls-idaho-mideast-refugees-sexually-assault-five-year-old

  154. What could possibly go wrong with this? http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/572824.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=im

    I am thinking that the perpetual war we started in Iraq and the Middle East, will be at least a 100 year war that will bleed us badly. Refugees will be welcome because we will have lost the will to continue this nightmare.

  155. Sibson, here is a white guy that wins the prize for being the biggest looser. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/texas-baby-fridge-car_us_576afe6de4b0c0252e784b74

    Stop bashing the immigrants when we have some many homeboys that are equal opportunity offenders.

  156. Anything that the right wing doesn’t like is called propaganda. Why would having a gay lover be considered propaganda, b/c people like the Steven’s want to blame it on ISIS so bad?

  157. If there was ANY question of the shooter being connected to ISIS, the FBI would never have dropped him from their watch list. Sorry right wing, we know you want it so bad to be ISIS’ fault but this is looking more and more like a self-loathing mentally ill closet homosexual raised by an abusive hating father.

  158. Steve Sibson

    “Why would having a gay lover be considered propaganda”

    Jenny, presenting half truths is propaganda. Using this half truth to say that this was not part of the Islamic Jihad is the lie. The shooter admitted during the attack that this was being done on behalf of ISIS. He said that this was in response to bombing by America in the Middle East. He said nothing about being a repressed homosexual. And if he was, then it would be illogical for him to kill other homosexuals. Instead he would have attacked those that the cultural Neo-Marxists blame…white male Christian Bible-thumping heterosexuals. Sad that the Democratic response it to take guns away from the Americans they are falsely blaming for the attack. Another propaganda ploy was last night on the House floor.

  159. Roger Cornelius

    Unsuccessful blogger never answered my question, he deflected it by asking another question.
    Additionally, he didn’t answer the second part of my question, why do republicans want those on the terror watch list to be able to buy weapons in the first place? What do republicans really want to happen?

  160. Steve Sibson

    Roger, you lack discernment and critical thinking abilities. The suspected terrorists could not buy a gun if they were deported out of this country. If you guys want to ignore the Constitution, then why risk them using bombs on us? Remember Boston? So lets deport those on that list today. Problem solved.

  161. Darin Larson

    Sibby, the Orlando shooter was born here and a US citizen. How do you suggest deporting a US citizen and where do you deport a US citizen?

    Answer: we can’t deport US citizens. We can put them in jail with proper evidence and we can restrict their access to weapons. The fact that you don’t seem to grasp this simple point means you lack discernment and critical thinking abilities.

  162. Steve Sibson

    Darin, the Orlando shooter wasn’t on a terror watch list. If a US citizen gets on a terror watch list, then isn’t that enough to put them in jail?

    If you want to ignore the Second Amendment and due process, why not the entire Constitution including the First Amendment?

    The other option is to support the whole Constitution which means we need our guns to protect ourselves. Gun control is illogical.

  163. Darin Larson

    Sibby, you don’t believe evidence that the Orlando shooter was a not so closeted gay with repression issues, but you believe him when he says that he bears allegiance to ISIS, Al Queda and Hezbollah. However, at least two out of the three aforementioned groups are sworn enemies against each other. So the Orlando shooter has such little understanding of these terrorist groups that he does not even understand that he cannot be aligned with all three because they are aligned against each other. But you choose what you want to believe and let the facts be damned! You go Sibby!

  164. Darin Larson

    “If a US citizen gets on a terror watch list, then isn’t that enough to put them in jail?”

    Umm, No you can’t put someone in jail who is a US citizen just because they are on a terror watch list!

  165. Darin Larson

    “If you want to ignore the Second Amendment and due process, why not the entire Constitution including the First Amendment?”

    So, if we need to put reasonable restrictions on military grade weaponry and more extensive background checks and close the gun show loopholes, and get the large ammo clips off the streets, than you say we should just throw out the entire Constitution! You lack discernment!

  166. mike from iowa

    The constitution is clear on people (citizens) owning guns. Only as a part of a well regulated militia, commanded by Obama when called to duty, Citizens were not allowed to carry weapons around in peace times and there was no free standing army because the founders knew that is where the major danger of revolt lies.

  167. mike from iowa

    Twin Falls County Prosecutor Grant Loebs released some details to counter misinformation that he believes originated with anti-refugee groups in Idaho. A 5-year old girl was assaulted by three boys, aged 7, 10, and 14; two of the boys have been charged in juvenile court. The boys aren’t Syrian; two are Sudanese and one is from Iraq. “There were no Syrians involved, there was no knife involved, there was no gang-rape,” Loeb explained. It’s not clear whether the boys are refugees, although they are believed to have been in the U.S. for less than two years.
    Read more at http://wonkette.com/603296/wingnuts-having-fine-freakout-over-nonexistent-knife-wielding-syrian-gang-rapists-in-idaho#hSWWjBLbuDCGrQZ5.99

  168. Steve Sibson

    Mike, so you don’t have a problem with kids of Muslim immigrants allegedly removing the clothes of a 5 year girl and urinating on her as they take pictures? Is that some more of the Constitutional rights you want to replace the 2nd Amendment with? What do you want to call it, the right to free expression?

    It takes a liberal’s moral relativism to pick and choose which part of the Constitution they want to enforce.

  169. Steve Sibson

    “No you can’t put someone in jail who is a US citizen just because they are on a terror watch list!”

    And you can’t infringe on their Constitutional right to bear arms neither. The Democrats are completely wrong on this one, but it does not stop them from using propaganda and fear to get people to go along with their destruction of America.

  170. “The constitution is clear on people (citizens) owning guns. Only as a part of a well regulated militia, commanded by Obama when called to duty, Citizens were not allowed to carry weapons around in peace times and there was no free standing army because the founders knew that is where the major danger of revolt lies.”

    Are you seriously arguing originalism, or are you using it as a rhetorical device?

  171. bearcreekbat

    “And you can’t infringe on their Constitutional right to bear arms neither.”

    Under Sibby’s logic since the 2nd amendment mentions a “well regulated militia” we need to make sure everyone who wants them has full access to military style weapons, including full autos, rockets and rocket launchers, tanks, military drones, hand grenades, bombs, chemical weapons, and nukes.

    And since the 2nd amendment makes no mention of excluding or limiting possession of weapons by felons and the mentally ill we need to assure that felons and the mentally ill have full access to these military style weapons.

    And even if these military style weapons are used to slaughter innocent people, that does not matter as none of the bill of rights prohibits private citizens from murdering each other. Instead, the 5th amendment protects people who want to murder others from government interference until they get “due process”

    Am I reading your 2nd Amendment position correctly Sibby?

  172. That’s not true Sibby, if someone is mentally unstable and on a terror watch list they absolutely should be denied to purchase firearms.
    For god sakes, aren’t you sick of the mass murders from mentally ill individuals? So you support someone with paranoid schizo or an unstable violent young male with fits of deep rages to be able to purchase firearms?

    These mass murderers never should have been given their 2nd Amendment Constitutional rights. Apparently as a Christian, Sibby doesn’t believe in common sense safety and morality.

  173. Steve Sibson

    “if someone is mentally unstable and on a terror watch list they absolutely should be denied to purchase firearms”

    It is because of those types of people that the Second Amendment rights should not be infringed. Before rights can be taken away, due process has to be satisfied. After due process, if one is placed on a terror watch list, they should instead be jailed or deported. That should end their ability to buy a gun and shoot up a gay bar.

    “none of the bill of rights prohibits private citizens from murdering each other”

    That is what the abortion promoters are saying. They say abortion is a Constitutional right. Again, if the government cannot stop murders, then our Second Amendment rights should not be infringed.

  174. bearcreekbat

    “if the government cannot stop murders, then our Second Amendment rights should not be infringed”

    So you are contending that since the Bill of Rights does not expressly prohibit private citizens from murdering each other, that everyone should be able to possess military style weapons, including people who openly declare their intent to kill other people, such as doctors who are trying to help women safely terminate pregnancies endangering their lives and safety?

    And from your response to my earlier questions it appears I got your 2nd Amendment beliefs correct – am I right?

  175. As much as Sibson is a rubber cement huffing weirdo, he did clumsily stumble onto a decent point. If the second amendment protects a fundamental right, and SCOTUS says it does, then citizens expect a certain level of protections of that right subject to reasonable restraints (time, place, manner restrictions for speech, etc.) Placement on terror watch lists subverts a fundamental right in an extra-judicial setting and doesn’t just limit, but completely prevents, a person who may not have committed any crime from exercising that fundamental right. I like playing beat the dope as much as the next guy, but Steve almost made a decent point.

  176. Okay Sib, then just admit morality and safety doesn’t mean anything to you, then. You and the other right wingers claim that with your abortion argument.

  177. So Sibby believes the mentally ill should be jailed. Dumping it on the tax payers is what Sibby supports instead of a simple denial to purchase firearms.

  178. At least civil commitments have a process. What exactly does placement on a watch list have?

  179. mike from iowa

    Didn’t we get terror watch lists in the middle of the night when wingnuts pushed through the Patriot Act without allowing Dems to read i? Didn’t we get the knee jerk reaction Patriot Act due to lack of action by the dumbass dubya administration in the weeks and months leading up to 9-11?

    And didn’t dumbass dubya suspend habeas corpus? Where was the due process on all these knee jerk Bushisms?

  180. Steve Sibson

    “So you are contending”

    I don’t agree that murder is a right, but I am saying that abortion rights as been adjudicated do say that. As long as people believe that they have a right to murder, then we must not infringe on the right to bear arms. With that said, I do recognize that the a “well regulated militia” is one that is trained and know what they are doing. Not sure how that can be verified by the government, given the Fourth Amendment. And also note that South Dakota’s Constitution specifically states the right to bear arms is an individual right.

    “So Sibby believes the mentally ill should be jailed.”

    Never said that Jenny. I said that after due process is fulfilled and someone is judged to be placed on a “terror watch list”, they should be jailed and not allowed to roam the country. Never said that also applies to the mentally ill. Keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill is not possible and only justifies the need for the Second Amendment.

  181. Steve Sibson

    “due to lack of action by the dumbass dubya administration in the weeks and months leading up to 9-11”

    And the same point applies to the Obama administration regarding the Orlando shooting. And I don’t mean to say that in defense of GW Bush. I agree with your position on the Patriot Act. I have also changed my mind on the War in Iraq. It should not have happened. It was all a bunch of false propaganda. Obama even had bin Laden shot and we still have problems with Islamic Jihad.

  182. “Didn’t we get the knee jerk reaction Patriot Act due to lack of action by the dumbass dubya administration in the weeks and months leading up to 9-11?

    And didn’t dumbass dubya suspend habeas corpus? Where was the due process on all these knee jerk Bushisms?”

    ….I can’t tell if you are arguing against me or just attempting to shift the focus. Yes, the Patriot Act was the source of a lot of this and, yes, it is a ridiculously over broad law and I loathe it. And yes, almost no time was provided to read the act and it still passed the House by a vote of 357-66. Can we talk about the issue of fundamental rights and a lack of due process now that you’ve had the chance to blame Bush for it, or do you need to let everyone know that Democrats aren’t culpable a while longer?

  183. mike from iowa

    Dicta, my post was referenced to Sibby’s due process claims. It had nothing to do with you.

    As long as you asked,it was this type of tactic used by wingnuts that got Dems enmeshed in the whole shooting match. Either vote for this w/o reading it or we will use it against you in the next election. Dems are culpable of not standing their ground and voting their consciences.

  184. Fair enough, then. I’d like to note my extreme discomfort about agreeing with Sibson, however tangential the agreement was to his actual point.

  185. Individuals will grant each other anarchy to care for one another. Parasites will use anarchy to hate each other. Either way anarchy is coming. Care for one another sincerely, by your own means, and by your own initiative. Demanding a politician take by gun and through coercian from someone else, is you not actually wanting to help others, and your elected politician doesnt care either. Leave the politicians, and the beauracrats behind, and maybe people will be able to get along individually.

  186. There may come a time where all the world religeons will either no longer exist, or they’ll exist, but all will have gone through a refirmation or enlightenment. There are many Muslims who have already choosen enlightenment and individual respect for others within and outside their faith. They are Americans who work very hard at protecting their communities. The last thing they want is theocratic resurgance in their communities, when that is what they fled decades ago. Its one thing to help people in need, its quite another to shift a peaceful community into uphevell. And when theocracies in whatever form they are, drive refugees from all of the middle-eastern and European wasteland overs to the US, they won’t simply settle down, they will want to take the whole world as well.