Iowa’s Democratic caucus offers some simple lessons for anyone trying to run an election:
- Trump supporters are willing to sabotage an election to keep their dictator in power. The sexist pigs on 4chan disseminated the phone number local caucus officials were to use to call in their results and encouraged troublemakers to flood the line and complicate the vote count. The actual impact of this Trumpist monkeywrenching is debatable, but disrupting legitimate electoral processes is a crime… which, as we know from John Thune and Mike Rounds, matters not one whit to Trump’s followers.
- Results done right are always more important than results done fast. What little TV I watched on Iowa caucus night (a few snatches of second-string anchors and reporters from the live feeds on YouTube) showed the clear resentment of reporters who’d camped out in Iowa in hopes of scooping their colleagues by ten seconds, only to be left recycling half-baked punditry in the absence of reported vote counts. Not getting our Monday night climax before everyone had to jet off to New Hampshire was a disappointment, but it doesn’t mean that anyone should have rushed to count the numbers. The votes are there; they just need to be counted and counted right.
- Phone apps don’t guarantee getting results faster or more accurately. Iowa Democrats spent over $60,000 on a slapdash smartphone application to carry out simple arithmetic—and we don’t need an app for either counting or fractions. Let your local caucus chairs count votes at their local caucus sites. Write the numbers down. Announce the counts to the people present, see if anyone disagrees, and count heads again if necessary. When everyone agrees the count is right, make copies of the count, put copies in the hands of multiple captains, in a lockbox, and in a scanner to transmit the official results to party headquarters for counting. No matter what method you use for reporting, you’re going to need some verification protocols, and the CEO of the Iowa caucus app company says that’s where his app failed, from the login procedure confusing many local caucus chairs to the insufficiently vetted app not properly communicating with the Iowa Dems’ HQ system. Both of those tech glitches could have been avoided with counting by hand and reporting by phone or in person. (And Iowa Dems could have spent their $60,000 on burner phones for their reporting line, with private numbers they would deliver to their local caucus chairs on caucus morning, to avoid any Trumpist sabotage.)
- Giving any one state this much power in selecting a Presidential nominee is a bad idea. The Iowa caucus snafu would not have mattered nearly as much if it had been part of a nationwide or regional or Super-Tuesday-style primary/caucus day. Candidates invest inordinate time and money in winning this one state. Results from this one state inordinately influence the fates of many campaigns. A failure to produce those results quickly and reliably wastes the candidates’ investment in that state’s nomination process.
- From a technical perspective, a delay in Iowa caucus results in a national or multi-state primary/caucus day would have been problematic but not the news-cycle-breaking calamity that last week’s snafu became. Reliable and timely results from most states take the pressure off a few states that might experience technical difficulties. It’s a lot harder for Trumpist malefactors to sabotage elections in all 50 states than it is for them to flood one phone line in Des Moines.
- From a management perspective, the single-state spotlight may make it harder for party officials to focus on counting the votes: the New York Times notes that Iowa’s party chair was awfully busy doing interviews and posing for photos the day before the caucus, when maybe he should have been focused on communicating with local caucus chairs and HQ volunteers and testing protocols to make sure his party was ready to count the votes right. A nationwide primary would mean less pressure and distraction for any one state’s election chiefs.
- And from a political perspective, a national primary would align far better with the principle of “one citizen, one vote” than the current staggering, in which residents of Iowa get something like ten votes in February in winnowing the field of Presidential nominees while South Dakota gets something like a tenth of a vote in June in a primary that normally plays as an afterthought to the conclusion Iowa and the other early states set in motion.
New Hampshire holds its primary Tuesday night. New Hampshire’s Secretary of State is running this primary. Hmm… maybe there’s one more conclusion to be drawn from the Iowa caucus: elections should be run by the state, not by private organizations.
Correction 1:59 CST: Per John’s explanation below, I have corrected my references to “precinct captains” to read “local caucus chairs.”
Excellent summary and observations. It’s long past the time to kill the caucus. It’s anti-democratic. There’s no secret ballot. It’s like picking teams for playground dodge ball. The precinct (neighborhood) peer pressure can be intense. It’s anti-single parent. More than 90% of single parents are women caring for kids, who often hold 2 jobs. They cannot afford to attend for several hours on a school night. It’s anti-the elderly, many of whom are getting ready for bed by 7pm. There is no accommodation (no absentee caucusing) for the immobile because the caucus done by a private organization and not the government. The party that counts on the old, the infirm, women, the marginal job holders — effectively locks them out of caucusing.
The terminology is confusing.
A caucus begins with a IDP trained, certified temporary chair. The first act after closing the doors, promptly capping an existing line at 7pm and signing in, is electing the caucus chair and caucus secretary. In your outstanding summary substitute the term caucus chair for precinct captain for they are different with different roles, goals, and advocacy.
Ritualistic fund raising for the IDP & county parties, letters being read, and speeches are next. Then the playground fun begins where the precinct captains representing candidates begin the playground mash-up to pick teams or encourage caucus goers to stand in a candidates’ corner. (There are no voters. There are no votes. There are numbers of caucus goers who stand in a group.) When the chairs’ designated time is up, the chair declares candidates meeting the 15% threshold as viable and frozen in place with that candidate. The 2d round begins with precinct captains appealing to the non-viable supporters and undecideds. When the chairs’ designated time is up, the chair recounts viable groups in which others may have joined, or a new group which non-viable groups formed achieving viability, any undecideds (they can be a viable group or even “win” the caucus). By now several disgusteds went home or to the bar drowning their sorrows for our ‘democracy’.
Rural Iowa often holds combined or consolidated caucuses where more than 1 precinct caucus in the same room. Practices differ by caucus chair. In at least 1 room those in the standing room out-numbered those seated — the site was inadequate. Those standing and milling around greatly complicated playground team picking and counting. One had little faith in its accuracy – as also evidence with multiple counts.
If the Iowa caucus does not die – it’s continued life is further evidence that the almighty dollar, state GDP, and faux-tourism are more important than is our democracy. The caucus is Iowa’s grey calf, as is Mount Rushmore to South Dakota. The only difference is whether Iowa will change it, improve it to meet the democratic republic ideals — or let is fester as a time-warped mixed message to future generations.
The Caucus, in fact the entire primary process, even the whole concept of political parties needs to be viewed in the context of this all being a private enterprise — not a government or public process.
All this is about two clubs making up rules for choosing which candidates those clubs are putting forward for election to office.
I’ve heard much hand wringing, or cheering, depending upon the source, that the Iowa caucuses have suicided. What’s the word on the ground Mike?
Suggestions I like are 3-4 regional Super Tuesdays.
One national primary shuts out good candidates who have not been able to take in sufficient funds to compete nationwide initially. The regions can be created to be diverse on several levels and so be part of a more fair selection process than very white and old Iowa and New Hampshire followed by majority Black South Carolina.
That’s my suggestion to the DNC. Are you listening?
Debbo: please include or add ranked voting to your fruitful list. (Debbo, my and my son’s experience were “on the ground”, though I’m writing here for myself.)
Professor Scott Galloway shares many frustrations with Iowa’s Old Gothic throw-back caucus that is not ready nor applicable to the 21st Century.
https://www.profgalloway.com/iowat-the-fuk
Yes John, of course. We use it here in Minnesota in Minneapolis, St. Paul, Duluth, Rochester and I believe a couple other towns.
Debbo, I haven’t talked with anyone about the fiasco and as I said before, I do not participate in them due to health related problems. I wait for the nominee and that person gets my vote. I couldn’t care one way or the other if the first in the nation caucus stays or goes away.
Except it sure riles a lot of other state’s feathers that flyover iowa gets so much attention.
I’m thinking about John’s description of the caucus. In normal elections, South Dakota outlaws electioneering at polling places. We all walk and vote with the assurance that no one will stand there browbeating us with their arguments for or against candidates while we have ballots in our hands, or even as we wait in line to get our ballots.
I’m still not convinced that a party should not be allowed to use a caucus system to choose its nominees… but the question then is do we want candidates chosen by all party members or just by those who can participate in a forum more limited than a normal open election governed by state law?
O critiques the whole party system… and at least in terms of primaries and general elections, I’m willing to ditch it and go with the California system of a totally open, single-ballot primary, followed by a general election match-up of the top two candidates. Of course, for the Presidential election in particular, that would be a mess and require more measures to ensure fair results, like ranked choice voting.
Some of the 1600 plus caucuses ran well. Yet this one fanned on the best candidate. https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/2/3/21121348/iowa-caucus-clinton-bernie-sanders-biden-buttigieg-warren
National press and local decades-long local participants noted that this caucus chair’s process was smooth and accurate. Yet, too many weren’t and the process is too anti-democratic. Adapt. Migrate. Or. Die.
Since media is allowed; future Iowa caucuses must be recorded – subject to IDP instant replay review (like the NFL). Sanders supporters reportedly attempted recording the counts.
Recording will deflate volunteers to chair the process and the participation. Thus, will facilitate the move to secret ballots and kill the caucus.
Of course, addressing the imperative having states populations that represent US demographics out stripes this narrow analysis, yet is imperative.
I can’t remember what year it was, but didn’t the South Dakota Democratic Party use a caucus once? I recall it happening, but it sure didn’t leave much of an impression on me because I can’t recall who was running. It must have been a year when they moved the primary back to February, and the national party refused to accept that date.
As an unaffiliated CO voter, I couldn’t vote in a primary until two years ago. Now I get a mail in ballot with both Dem and Repub primary candidates on it. I can choose which party to vote for. If I try to vote for both parties, the ballot is rejected.
I can’t say whether I think the Iowa caucus is a good or bad system. I respect the opinions of everyone that has weighed in on this and on Cory’s posting but it seems everyone is avoiding the elephant in the room that at least part of the problem was sabotage. Sabotage by the DNC and establishment on up. The reason Sanders supporters have made an effort to keep track of this is because they expected this sort of stuff. The establishment press and the moneyed elite has been doing everything in its power to stop Sanders. Now they have Bloomberg and 48 states left to do the job.
Clyde, one of my friends is a determined Sanders or Liar-in-Chief person and she is certain the Iowa problem was caused deliberately by the DNC. It seems to me that with GOP sabotage and Pootie’s boys eagerly pushing all kinds of craziness, the DNC didn’t really need to do anything.
I’ve read of tenuous connections between the company that built the software for the IDP and the Buttigieg campaign. The same connections exist between it and Warren, Klobuchar and another candidate whose name escapes me right now. Buttigieg seems to be the bogeyman of the Sanders supporters at this time, but I haven’t seen anything concrete or even beyond “really slim” to Buttigieg and anything underhanded.
To be sure, Buttigieg and Biden are at the bottom of my list of preferred candidates. Warren is my #1, followed by Sanders, Klobuchar and Bloomberg are 3-4 in either order.
Debbo, I hate to admit it but I may be in the Sanders or Liar-in Chief category as well. If they screw us into another establishment hand it to the rich, stick it to everyone else candidate I’m considering a vote for our nemesis. Four more years of him and a revolution will be in the works and we may need one. Unfortunately, after four more years there might not be anything left to save or perhaps any way to save it.
For many reasons this is an important conversation. I attended the Iowa caucus (the popular expression for what I did is “caucus tourist”) because my son was participating and because he was excited to do so. I was able to witness his participation and share with him all the excitement that accompanies the caucus. My son’s Des Moines precinct caucus was held in a large venue that offered a balcony so I could watch the proceedings from overhead, along with other “observers” and media. Jake Tapper and Dana Bash were on the floor of the event, with camera crews. The caucus I witnessed was an awkward and time-consuming process, for reasons that have been pointed out by other posters. But it is an exciting process, too. Of course, no one expected that the tabulation part of the process would become so problematic. I loved meeting people from across the country who had come to Iowa to witness rallies, speeches, media events, and the caucus itself. It felt like a gathering of people who appreciate their country and their government. There was an optimistic feeling, everywhere you went. The atmosphere at the caucus I attended was civil. Yes, you must publicly express your favorite. Sides are determined, and you stand or sit with your group. That might seem off-putting for some. But I saw no evidence that anyone ridiculed or was hostile to another for the candidate they supported. There were many people I met in Des Moines who had traveled there to work on behalf of a specific candidate. I watched some of the caucus with two black women from South Bend, Indiana who had worked the previous week to support Mayor Pete. There was a guy from Oregon who was there to work (volunteer) for Bernie. There was a contingent from Puerto Rico working on behalf of candidates who support their desire for self-determination. The process I witnessed was solemn and enthusiastic and serious and celebratory. Though I drove back to South Dakota feeling uncertain about who to support, I also felt proud about the electoral process I witnessed.
Thanks for your perspective Pete. Very interesting and encouraging.
Clyde, do this in 2024: “I hate to admit it but I may be in the Sanders or Liar-in Chief category.”
I may join you then, seriously. I think the Bernie or Bust people played a role in getting us Liar-in-Chief in 2016. I’m not a fan of the DNC or Perez, but the risk is too big right now. I believe our democracy is on the line in 2020.
I know Sanders will definitely be too old in 2028 (if a Democrat wins this year), but he’s not the only liberal who has good governance ideas. Maybe AOC will run in 2028.
Inspiring words Peter and I can understand the reason’s the caucus system has survived. However here is another opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBWSHHVkmWk
The DNC favored Clinton over Sanders in the 2016 Democratic Primaries. Donna Brazile, the DNC chair, wrote a book about it.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/donna-brazile-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders
The DNC and the holdovers from the Clinton and Obama regimes have been fretting about stopping Sanders for almost a year.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/us/politics/bernie-sanders-democratic-party.html
Sanders is attempting to organize a multiracial working class coalition to overthrow the oligarchy. His campaign represents an existential threat to the corporate wing of the Democratic establishment. It looks like the DNC and their allies would rather lose to Trump than win with Sanders.
Agree, Jason. I’ve been saying for some time that it looks as if the DNC’s favorite candidate for president is Donald Trump!
Thanks, Clyde, for sharing that video. This isn’t the first time an Iowa caucus has gotten messy and produced false results. But this is likely the most egregious example of that. It is a process ripe to be damaged or exploited by human failings and weaknesses. Better for me than the caucus itself were the people I met. That was the most uplifting part, though it was thrilling to be present for my son’s involvement in the caucus. He treated the caucus with great seriousness, and his deliberations and idealistic positions were what led him to select a candidate to stand behind. The caucus may have disappointed, but for many the process encouraged them to be more thoughtful and considerate.
I refuse to engage in hashing over conspiracy theories about the DNC trying to shut out Sanders. There is no evidence of such sabotage by the DNC. Such conspiracy theories only help Trump.
There was no anti-Sanders conspiracy in 2016; there was only a Clinton campaign that won more votes. There is no anti-Sanders campaign in 2020; there is only a Democratic electorate that is understandably split among many good choices.
The only sabotage clearly evidenced in the Iowa caucus was the 4chan Trumpist jamming of the Iowa Dems caucus-reporting phone lines.
Pete brings back an important lesson: whatever went wrong in reporting the results, and whatever limitations there may be on participation, the caucus itself, the process in which the rank and file participated, is a spectacular expression of democracy. I appreciate the secret ballot, but there’s also something instructive and inspiring in seeing neighbors voting with their feet, with their presence, having their vote known in the context of conversation, seeing that they can literally stand on opposite sides of a big room and still look each other in the eye as neighbors with a shared fate and a shared interest in making their country better.
Noble response, Cory, but as one that has been watching this process play out all year long I would say you are wrong. The establishment press has been doing everything to do in Sanders chances as well as the DNC. The same was the case in 2016. The super delegates gave the race to Hillary and polls show that Sanders was the most popular candidate and would have beaten Trump hands down.
I think its really quite simple…..they don’t want to be taxed and will do anything to hang on to the gravy train.
I’m all for democracy but I really don’t think we have it anymore. Its been chipped away and controlled till it really is questionable if any of it is left.
Five company’s control virtually all of the media and thus can control dialog on who gets support.
As many are saying the establishment left would rather see Trump re-elected than run a progressive.
55% of the citizens in this country don’t bother voting and that number is growing.
Even Bloomberg agrees with me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28aMgMZNV-8
Hope I’m not going off the deep end on this but I’m of the opinion that only Sanders can beat Trump. The idea that any blue will do is all wrong IMO. Trump saw a resurgence of popularity after the impeachment and he has the incumbent factor in his favor. Beating him isn’t going to be a walk in the park and all the other candidates IMO have enough baggage that Trump will wipe the floor with them during the presidential debates.
The U.S. Is an oligarchy. A recent study proved this claim.
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746
So what the DNC is doing is very logical. They are preserving the oligarchy within the Democratic Party establishment. My goodness they just changed their own rules to allow a former “stop and frisk” Republican to join the debate stage (after he donated $325,000 to the DNC).
Clyde and I didn’t claim it was a conspiracy. It’s just the rich trying to preserve a system that gives them enormous privilege and power. If the Democratic Primary process does not root out this structural problem, then we will probably get four more years of Trump.
A little more on Iowa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRPlaTOeisQ
No oligarchy here, now dictatorship. Bill Barr is now Chubby’s personal attorney, how about that!
No Dem can beat Trump. That’s because Clyde’s anti-“illegal” Mexican and anti-Muslim nationalism and populism fear is as strong as it’s ever been. Also, big business wants tax breaks. Republicans have kicked the national debt to the curb to “feed their need”. Thus, this false economy is thriving. Incumbents win when the economy is thriving, false or real.
“I’m old. I lived through eight of Reagan and I’ll survive eight of Trump. The pendulum will bring liberals great things, when it comes back our way.”
This conversation is veering away from its intent. I closely watched Senator Sanders in 2016 and have also closely watched him in 2020. I was able to attend his post-caucus rally last week in Des Moines and I stood
near him as he delivered his energetic, though canned 10-minute speech.
Understand that I come from the same political place Bernie comes from — a liberal/radical perspective inspired by nature, community spiritedness and anti-establishment tendencies. Sanders has cultivated no solid collection of colleagues to work with in the Senate. He is a lone ranger. At the rally I attended it seemed I was oldest person present (I am 66) except for Bernie and maybe his wife. It was an enthused yet scruffy group, in large measure. My conversations with other rally goers revealed many are involved in politics for the first time. I do not get the impression that Sanders and his staff and many of his followers are suited to tangle with the Republican machine. On character,Sanders is 100 times the person Trump is. But I do not have the confidence Sanders can rally enough of the Democrat party to topple Trump. His crossover appeal is negligible. I wish President Obama had done more to create an atmosphere in our country that would have been more accepting of liberal ideas, including some of those presented by Sanders, but he did not, and Sanders remains well outside the mainstream for the most part. It’s a lot to ask of our society to dramatically switch from a shallow, greedy, materialistic, ego-maniacal bully to an old, smart hippie. That’s a big long swing of a heavy pendulum.
You are right, Peter. The conversation is veering.
The pendulum does need to swing and if Trump isn’t enough to make it swing I’m afraid we might not get another chance to make it swing. I’m sure a lot of Germans thought it would swing when Hitler was making his rise to power as well.
The media machine will continue to sway the populous away from the old smart hippie.
I have the same impression of Bernie, Pete. I like him and some of his stands on issues, but he’s not realistic about what can actually get done should he win, and he’s taking his young, naive supporters along for a very disappointing ride. There won’t be free college for everyone, nor Medicare for All.
It’s not so much Bernie that I have a problem with, but his supporters. Some are young and naive. Fine, we were that way too once. It takes that sort of blind belief to do lit drops and knock doors in cold, windy weather. The others are older, and should be wiser, but they are arrogant, my way or the highway hangovers from lefty discussion groups. They don’t actually do much to change things. They wrap themselves in their white privilege and vote for Jill Stein. They might as well vote for Trump.
Don, I feel very much the same. I like most everything Sanders says, though I think about half of it is not doable. But the cultish nature of his followers worries me.
Sanders is not a god, nor a savior. He has no magic wand. The majority of people in his camp aren’t “supporters” like Klobuchar, Warren or other politicians have. They are “true believers” in a cultish sense. That’s not good for the Democratic Party.
GOP fanatics who are devoted to Liar-in-Chief are the flip side, though more extreme. Sanders’ followers are much smarter, less gullible or mean.
We damn well better find strong supporters or else. We are about ready to completely lose our public lands. Probably doesn’t mean much to many, but it should for the future. What kind of Dawes Act will be put into place?
“The Trump administration last week tapped William Perry Pendley, a conservative lawyer who has spent decades campaigning against federal land protection, to oversee 245 million acres of public land — more than 10% of the entire U.S. landmass.
William Perry Pendley, a conservative lawyer who has spent decades campaigning against federal land protection, is now the acting director of the Bureau of Land Management.
Bureau of Land Management
It’s an appointment that many, including current and former Bureau of Land Management officials, view as part of a broader effort aimed at pawning off America’s natural heritage.
“This is Sagebrush Rebellion 2020,” one current BLM employee in the West told HuffPost, adding that it is “hard to imagine” Pendley’s appointment isn’t a move toward eventually selling off federal lands or transferring control to the states.” https://www.hcn.org/articles/climate-desk-bureau-of-land-management-land-transfer-advocate-and-longtime-agency-combatant-now-leads-blm
Lesson from Iowa only show the involvement of Putin, welcomed by Chubby trump.
Will Pendley sell Oregon to the Bundys, a nickel per acre?
We should encourage young people to actively campaign for their preferred candidate. We should listen to their concerns and try to join the movement to make this world a better place. Calling them members of a cult and dismissing their commitment to a good cause is what leads to the Ok Boomer memes.
It’s always interesting to see the difference between what I wrote and what another reads.
dismissing, not listening, discouraging
Interesting take on my observations, descriptions and concerns, Jason. I believe you saw judgment and criticism where it did not exist.
Look at Trump’s rallies. They see themselves as an angry herd bound and determined to Make America Great Again. I see a massive group that isn’t collectively educated enough to understand the future danger and destiny of a “Make America First” policy. Trumpists are unified in their ignorance of the history of nationalism and it’s devastating consequences on our future freedom. Their President might know but he’s too selfish and greedy to care about anything but Trump Inc. All we can do is ride it out and attempt to mitigate the damage by electing a Democrat Senate. 中國很高興 (China is pleased.)
*We Dems can’t give up the election but we can temper our expectations and use a long game strategy to get what we believe is best.
What a bunch of downers! If the senate go’es Democratic the only thing that would stop Sanders agenda would be corporatist Democrat’s!
What is so radical about a plan to extend the popular Medicare to cover more people? To insure Americans like virtually every civilized country in the world. What is so unreasonable about taxing a few people that have more wealth than most of the people in the world. Pulling troops out of ridiculous regime change wars. Why are those things radical?!
If we had a media that hadn’t been taken over by the 1% these things would be supported by you but you all listen to them telling you its impossible. I just hope the idealistic youth can accomplish something that this bunch isn’t willing to.
Clyde, I support Sanders’ plans and I believe that the “corporatist Democrats” will stop parts of it. I’m not trying to be a downer. That’s what I expect to see. It will still be a great leap forward for us.
No president does every single thing they campaign on because, unlike Dumb Despot, the previous 44 were not autocrats, loved the USA and respected the constitution.
Every campaign needs pragmatists and idealists. I think that’s a good thing because it creates balance. The two need to recognize that they’re on the same side to further their cause. Some Democrats are losing that focus and that can become a very big problem.
People who support other candidates now are extremely likely vote for Sanders if he gets the nomination. About 75% of the country knows that Criminal Creep is destroying our country.
Disagreement is not disparagement or disloyalty.
It’s just a difference of opinion.
Debbo, your reply and agreement with Donald mirrors almost exactly what the establishment press has been pushing all year and exactly what the alternate media has been railing against. The 1% take over of the media might be the end for any kind of democracy in this country. The fact is that you can’t have a democracy without a educated and INFORMED electorate. If all their information is propaganda supporting the agenda of those that want to control, the people can’t make good decisions.
Here’s an example from ALTERNATE media:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRgrGvT2p-k
clyde, if yah can’t describe what we are clicking on, it ain’t agonna happen, for example, reputable reporting might be like this :https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/01/20/william-barr-trumps-sword-and-shield?verso=true
that way you won’t click and infect your device with something unproven
If you weren’t aware, Nevada abandoned the app made by same company as the iowa debacle deliverer, but haven’t decided what else to use, except paper ballots.
I, frankly, am not seeing a problem here. So what if the counts are delayed or incorrect? There are national problems with election software changing votes and not counting them or counting them for the wrong person and it doesn’t get near the scrutiny and derision poor little flyover iowa is getting.
The video is of Krystal Ball, a Bernie supporter with a show she cohosts on the Hill tv channel going over to Tucker carlson’s Fake Noize dump so I don’t which of them or both are fake news.
I have watched several Krystal Ball videos. I don’t know of any reason why I should afford her more or less authority than another. I don’t ignore her, nor do I accept her as absolute truth.
Clyde, you are denying me the knowledge of my own experience and telling me that I am unable to form my own opinions based on watching and participating in politics for 50 years. I paid attention. I picked up a few things here and there. That is what I’m basing my comments on. If you’re reading similar things elsewhere, then they’re smarter than I thought. 😁
What I’m not into is absolutism. There is no candidate who is going to get everything done that she wants. There is no candidate who has all the right answers. That’s life.
Above all, we must overwhelm Criminal Creep and his GOP in November.
As Mike noted, leslie, the vid is a you tube vid. Says so. If you are afraid of you tube vids then I guess don’t go there.
Mike, you only need to watch a little of it to see the narrative that Chuck Todd is pushing on “Established” new’s. Tucker Carlson occasionally is allowed to speak the truth….not often, but occasionally. Hill TV seems to be doing fine on you tube that is mostly owned by the Norwegian people. A truly competitive source of content unlike the “established” news in this country owned by 5 oligarchs.
Sorry, Clyde. Tuckee Buzzard has zero credibility and has really gone down the rabbit hole in the past year or two. Neil Cavuto has more cred than Carlson.
The crux of the biscuit from Chuck Todd is, “Why are Sanders supporters so damn angry?” Clyde. You’re one. Tell us
Debbo, I agree completely that no candidate is going to be able to do all they set out to do. They can at least TRY! That is all I would ask. Sanders has flaws and isn’t by any means perfect but IMO is the best candidate this time around. The one biggest flaw is his age….I doubt he will be up for eight years and that is probably at least as much time as will be necessary to fix some of the damage done by Trump and his predecessors. Too bad we couldn’t have gotten him last time around instead of the guy we got!!!!!!!!!!
I think the country is getting pretty sick of centrist, go along, candidates. That is except for those that haven’t seen through the establishment press’es drivel.
Porter, “Why are Sanders supporters so damn angry” is exactly the narrative CT is trying to push and convince the electorate of! NASTY people those Sanders folk’s!
BTW, Porter, I don’t own a shirt that is brown…….
This narrative, as Peter noted, has indeed veered and I have other things to do than just argue and convince no one. I’m bowing out!
Clyde, look at your comments, full of exclamation points and frustration, or more. Why? My friend is a Sanders supporter and she seems to have some anger too? Why?
Axios, not mainstream media, but a fairly recent online newsletter, has a good part about the pluses and minuses of a Sanders candidacy for the Democratic Party. It’s very brief and welll worth your time.
is.gd/f3fDYa
Whenever I read posts like Clydes telling us that the mainstream media is lying or presenting false narratives and that Clyde relies on a different source that he asserts tells the truth, it always makes me wonder how Clyde and those sharing such a viewpoint have “discovered” that their source actually is telling the truth.
Does Clyde somehow magically already know “the truth” about whatever stories he reads or hears from sources he chooses to listen to? Or could it be that if a source will reaffirm whatever Clyde already believes or wants to hear, then and only then will Clyde declare that source truthful? And if another source challenges what Clyde already believes or wants to believe will Clyde and like folks simply declare that a source presenting information Clyde finds unpleasant to be lying?
Inquiring minds really want to know. Without some rational explanation of how Clyde and others who claim to know that mainstream sources present false stories already somehow know what is true and what isn’t, it seems difficult to accept their claims about reality.
What say you Clyde? How is it that you know the Hill story is truthful and represents reality but what you hear from Chuck Todd or the mainstream media is not true? And how do you ascertain when Tucker Carlson is speaking the truth versus when he is not allowed to speak the truth?
Please don’t get me wrong, as I do not claim to know what or assert facts or events are true or real, absent what I see or hear with my own eyes and ears (and even then I could be mistaken). But you seem so sure, perhaps you could help me understand.
BCB … Porter once said, “John Dale will believe anything he agrees with.” Maybe Clyde knows it’s true because he wouldn’t agree with a lie? Who knows? 😁
*I guess I’m crazy but I believe the NBC NIGHTLY NEWS.
When in doubt about a source’s veracity, call in Media Bias/Fact Check and get a comprehensive report on that source. It gives you an idea whether they are left, right or center and an idea how factual they are.
Porter, I asked Dale this same question but he wouldn’t respond.
mfi, that seems like a reasonable suggestion, but even then at some point you have to find a valid reason to trust a source.
AG Barr came out today griping how hard drumpf is making his job. I wouldn’t believe a word he says as far as I could toss a bobcat.
Barr’s comments struck me as a PR opp for Barr, complete with Trump permission, to take some heat off Barr. Media’s been aflame burning Barr at the stake for days since the “poor Roger Stone” comments. Flames, sakes alive! Don’t believe a word Barr says, and certainly not when it comes directly from Trump.
bcb, i don’t trust anyone 100% of the time, unless it would be Cory, or John T, Kal Lis or David Newquist.
I do not trust any site a wingnuts links to and immediately have it fact checked. If it turns out to be extreme right, I don’t bother to read the link.
I also trust Snopes, Fact Check, and Polit-Fact. Even National Review had a fact check unit I thought was reasonably fair.
Robin, drumpf had this to say on Twitter… https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/14/trump-tweets-he-has-right-to-interfere-in-doj-cases-after-barrs-critique.html
Should we be worried, yet? You and I know wingnuts will do nothing about this.
All magat morons in every state’s government need mandatory, remedial civics courses written in crayon so they can be sure to follow along. No passee, no playee.
Mike, Constitutionally Clueless believes he has whatever rights he says he does. GOP traitors proved it to him.
More for progressive’s that just might be ANGRY Sanders supporters!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egIaXuO93H8
I just replied to my weekly newsletter from sinator Grassley like this…
Sinator “Choke” Grossley, why haven’t you resigned in disgrace for unleashing the most lawless, pathological lying, pile of garbage ever to infect the White House? Have you no shame? Your disgraced name and his will be paired for eternity as two of the worst people in American History!
A little more fake new’s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egIaXuO93H8
Debbo:
Thanks for the Axios article. It is a good example of the corporate media manufacturing consent for the ruling class. See the link below for a quick review of how manufacturing consent works.
https://prruk.org/noam-chomsky-the-five-filters-of-the-mass-media-machine/
The author of the article, Michael Allen, is not a good journalist. He is paid to write this sort of drivel to push corporate narratives. He topped Salon’s “Hack” list because of his service to the ruling class.
https://www.salon.com/2013/12/19/hack_list_no_1_mike_allen/
Mike Allen agreed to allow Chelsea Clinton to screen questions for a potential interview. That sounds like Public Relations.
https://www.newsweek.com/mike-allen-chelsea-clinton-gawker-story-apologizes-399475
Allen is not someone I would trust as a legitimate source. However, now that we have a better idea of his corporate bias we can better understand his bullet point journalism. He is trying to prove to his corporate sponsors that he can be trusted to deliver their propaganda. He is trying to maintain their confidence.
Mike Allen does not want Sanders to win. He is clearly biased in favor of the corporations that currently benefit from the status quo. Read his entire newsletter and you get the idea that Trump’s beatable if the Democrats nominate Bloomberg. Also, Allen tries to suggest that BP Oil is a positive force in combating the climate crisis. Great. Let’s nominate a Republican to beat a Republican and then trust BP to solve the climate crisis. And people wonder why there is so much anxiety and ANGER among our electorate.
Clyde, you must like The Young Turks. I’ve watched them off and on for years, beginning when they had a tv show. Do they still?
I feel about 50/50 on them. They strive to be entertaining via outrage. They’re very, very far left, farther than me. I don’t think they make up stuff like Faux Noize, Dimbart and various other wingnut places. I do think TYT takes a story and pushes it to, or even past its absolute limits. So I take their stories with a shaker of salt.
That being said, I’ve no doubt various super pacs, including Emily’s List, are pushing their favorites. That’s what super pacs do, so that’s not really news.
I continue to hold Elizabeth Warren as my first choice and believe she would make the best president of all candidates running. Amy Klobuchar is my second choice.
Vanity Fair has an article about the $ various Democratic campaigns have. They say it’s either Bloomberg or Sanders. Take a read.
is.gd/b9gNxB
Washington and Lee University’s 27th annual mock political convention begins today. They’re focusing on the Democratic Party this year for obvious reasons. W&L students and faculty do a great deal of research and they’ve been correct 20 times. They even got Mango Maniac last time.
is.gd/StYcMG
Debbo the TYT bit on Emily’s list was news to me since I had thought they were left leaning and 100% for women…..should have known.
Most you tube sites want to drag out a story but they are still scooping news. I often don’t watch to the end.
Emily’s List is for pro choice women, period. So moderate is fine, as long as she’s pro choice. If there is no woman in an important race Emily’s will support a pro choice male candidate. I don’t think a pro choice conservative exists.
Did you watch the TYT vid, Debbo. Looks like maybe they are not pro choice or liberal!
I did and they are. All of the Democratic candidates are pro choice so it doesn’t matter which one they support. As for liberal, as I said in my previous comment, that’s not necessary, though it generally comes with pro choice.
Hold your nose and watch this. Warning, contains Fox content!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAIIT9sSKkY
Pundits gotta have something to talk about, whether Faux Noize Bidness or elsewhere. It’s only mid February. Much too early to panic.
Here’s a bit more with no Fox content……BTW, Debbo, a good friend reminded me and put my feet back on the ground…..
South Dakota has only three electoral votes and those are all going to Donald Trump. It would be a miracle if it turned out otherwise. Sigh…..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwBNDGm30m0
Everyone on this forum needs to see this video. Don’t know if anyone is even visiting this topic anymore but it is obvious where Chuck Todd and the puppeteers that pull his strings want this election to go. For me, if they pull this off I will officially declare that democracy in this country has ended….I will seriously be looking to emigrate. For sure, I will never bother voting again!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGuK9gcMRXY
I’d like to hear others opinions…
Clyde writes: “I’d like to hear others opinions.”
After listening to Clyde’s linked youtube video my opinion is that the presenter of the video, David Doel, appears to be a duped, or even worse a knowing, Trump supporter. Doel appears to be hoping to generate hostility toward the ultimate candidate that the Democratic party chooses if Bernie is not the final choice. And I note that his main complaint, and that of the various talking head critics that he linked, is that Democrats might follow their pre-existing convention rules, which in turn will purportedly violate the sacrosanct “will of the people” (i.e., Bernie supporters).
If Democrats follow the previous rules they have adopted for choosing a candidate and end up picking someone other than Bernie, Doel tells listeners not to vote, just stay home. He tells listeners that if they refuse to vote the Democrats will then be punished by the destruction of the Democratic Party and the election of Trump. Seems to me that this argument is pretty strong evidence that Doel is either an airhead or a latent Trump supporter.
And taking such a pro-Trump position while claiming to favor Bernie also seems to be evidence that Doel may well be a latent Trump supporter, or at the least one of Russia’s so-called “useful idiots.” It appears the Russians have concluded that if they can convince Democrats to ignore their longstanding convention rules and name Bernie as the candidate, even though he lacks the necessary delegates, that this will help Trump win.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/02/russia-trump-bernie-sanders-election-interference/606703/
Reports from our National Intelligence make it clear that Russia is once again working to assure Trump’s election in 2020:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/20/politics/trump-russia-intelligence-2020/index.html
You can bet that Russians’ alternative tactic in the event that Bernie is not the Democratic nominee is to use videos like Doel’s to try to create a divide among Democrats and entice Democratic voters to stay home, thus providing an alternative advantage to their man Trump’s election prospects for another term.
So that’s my opinion Clyde. Thanks for asking.
Doel is a Canadian from Toronto, near as I can figure out. Can’t find any info about Rational National for bias or accuracy, so I didn’t bother to watch the link. Who knows what his game is?
Astute analysis, Bear. Putin might as well be a registered Republican. Who knows? He might be.
Sigh……David Doel doesn’t have to make any recommendations….. the voters that would vote to put Trump out of the White House won’t show up. Doesn’t take anyone prompting them not to.
Sad, BCB, sad…
Porter, can’t tell any difference between Pootie and Congressional Republicans so it doesn’t matter if he’s actually registered as such or not.
Undoubtedly Pootie has Moscow Mitch’s Russian residence ready for his escape the day after Democrats sweep everything in November. Pootie’s Puppet probably thinks there’s a dacha for him on the Black Sea, but Pootie has fooled his boy again.
Bwahahahahaha!!!
Clyde has not articulated any explanation or challenge to the following factual premises underlying my stated opinion:
– National intelligence (source – NY Times) has reported that Russia is once again meddling in our 2020 election seeking to create division and hostility among American voters;
– Additional public reports (source – the Atlantic) indicate that the reason Russia supports either Trump or Bernie is that Russians have concluded Trump or Bernie are the most divisive potential leaders;
– the Democratic Convention rules currently do not allow “super delegates” to vote in the first round of voting. They can, however, vote for someone other than the candidate with the miost “pledged delegates” from their state in subsequent voting rounds if the “pledged delegates” do not select a candidate in the first round. See, https://ballotpedia.org/Democratic_delegate_rules,_2020;
– Doel (the narrator in Clyde’s video) thinks these rules should not be followed if Bernie starts with the most “pledged delegates” and that these “super delegates” should be pledged to Bernie if he won the state’s primary; and
– Doel encourages voters to stay home if the Democrats follow these existing rules and the votes of the “super delegates” result in naming a different candidate than Bernie.
Based on these uncontested facts, I opined that Doel, either knowingly or as a Russian “useful idiot,” is narrating a video that will advance the Russian “create divisiveness” strategy, which in turn will help Trump get re-elected, making Doel and like minded folks, in effect, Trump supporters.
Clyde gives my opinion a double “sad.” If Clyde acknowledges that my factual premises are accurate, then I wonder what other opinion he has formed from these facts, or if I have overlooked some more compelling facts that should alter my opinion. If he challenges any factual premise, however, rather than simply declaring an unexplained double “sad,” then perhaps Clyde could be open enough to enlighten readers about the source of his disagreement with the stated facts.
After all, like most DFP commenters, I really want to base my opinions on factual reality rather then allow my views to be manipulated by Russian operatives or any other propaganda. So I am compelled to ask how, in Clyde’s view, did this particular opinion win a double “sad?”
FWIW category….. Martin Sheen sent Lawrence O’donnell a tweet with a pic of drumpf/Putin 2020 bumper sticker someone in California prints. I am all in on a second drumpf term- 20 to life with no possibility of parole. lock him up.
Pootie’s Puppet for sure. US intelligence has been very clear that Pootie’s boys are indeed in the midst of our election. In addition, they are very, very good at deceiving us so we Americans are well served by being exceedingly skeptical of random videos, articles, tweets, comments, links, unknown news sites, etc.
The GOP has a long history of creating bogus news sites and Pootie’s boys, which includes the GOP, have doubled down on that. They create sites that look very good, often have local names, though no local relationship at all, and can seem very homey and friendly.
Imo, all this leads me to believe the only sources to trust are long established, well known sources. I trust those about 75%. The only sources I trust 100% are my lying eyes and people I know well.
Here’s another headline for Clyde:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/21/us/politics/russia-sanders-trump.html?emc=edit_na_20200221&ref=headline&nl=breaking-news&campaign_id=60&instance_id=0&segment_id=21507&user_id=16e8d21d1cf33300f4b501d20c9c5967®i_id=62506831
To his credit Bernie
But anyone who buys into the Doel video argument that Democrats should refuse to vote and refuse to support the Democratic challenger to Trump if Democrats follow their current convention rules and Bernie is not the final nominee, is playing right into Russian hands. Can you say “useful idiot?”
Some parties of a certain political persuasion cannot grasp the idea that Russians could be helping drumpf and Sanders at the same time.
drumpf also pitched a fit when conservative pundit A B Stoddard said drumpf lost all the debates in 2016. Insecure brat he is.
OT Affordable care act receives 55% approval rating in latest poll. Highest ever for a failed program drumpf claimed nobody likes.
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/484010-obamacare-favorability-hits-highest-level-ever-in-new-poll
I’m going to reply to this even though there really is no sense in doing so.
BCB, it is sad that you site the NY Times and the Atlantic as credible while you discount the meanderings of a you tube reporter who really has no reason to try and influence the masses as your sources do.
It is sad that you don’t see the obvious that regardless of what Doel says the outcome he predicts will come true.
I abstained from voting for a presidential candidate in the 2016 election. Being from South Dakota that made no difference but are you aware that 90 thousand voters in Michigan did the same as me? How many others just decided not to go to the polls after the DNC super delegates took the nomination away from Sanders? In Michigan that made a difference. Mike Bloomberg has as much as said himself that Sanders was cheated. Polls show that Sanders would have beaten Trump. So you have Trump BECAUSE of the DNC. Looks like this thing will go to a brokered convention and the DNC super delegates will be able to pull the same thing all over again.
Finally. RUSSIA!
The last RUSSIA interference has been proven to be bunk. Of course you need creditable sources to show that just as you do this time around. Follow the dollar and take everything with a grain of salt, please.
Really, folks! The Russian’s are helping Sanders and Trump?? Doesn’t that sound a little bit Alex Jones!
As Clyde has self identified in his opening sentence … he’s senseless.
Finally. RUSSIA!
The last RUSSIA interference has been proven to be bunk.
Clyde jumped the shark bigtime!!!
How do you know you tube Canadian isn’t a paid Russian asset?
Clyde, this is pathetic, even by your standards. It does not really deserve to be answered. I can’t he;lp myself. Others, with more intelligence and insight won’t follow you down rabbit holes.
If sanders is being boosted by Russia, which could be likely, he doesn’t deserve to be the nominee.
Just like unelected drumpf.
Russian GRU is using fake Bernie Bro’s to post angry on TWITTER because GRU wants half-educated Americans to associate modern socialism (buying as a group to get the best price) with old fashioned Communism (government ownership of businesses).
Follow the bouncing dollar. Who benefits most by Russian interference? Russia or the people in this country that are disseminating that information??
Last time around the influence that Russian meddling had on the election was infinitesimal. I’m not saying there was none. Whether the government of Russia was involved no one can prove.
I don’t buy it Mike and BCB. Looks like just another way to keep a guy that might tax them or cut funding to intelligence and military from getting elected.
-Russia benefits most from GRU interference in elections around the world. Russia has limited natural resources and must exert influence by propaganda.
-Russian GRU teams, WikiLeaks, and Cambridge Analytica (with Trump’s help) swung the election away from Clinton by psychologically profiling voters in swing states and then bombarding those voters with propaganda tailored to their psychological profile. In short, they told these voters lies that they believed because they agreed with what the lies were saying.
-It doesn’t matter if Clyde buys it. As I just said, Clyde believes anything he agrees with, be it true or not.
Info wars, Porter, Info wars……
Sorry, I don’t buy it…..
He’s all your’s Bear. 🐻 😂
I can’t see how the more than 16,500 military and civilian employees of the National Intelligence Agency would benefit financially or otherwise enough not to come forward if top agency officials were indeed spreading false statements to Congress and the public about Russian interference. I am not aware of any factual basis to support Clyde’s apparent belief that money has corrupted essentially everyone in this agency.
Likewise, Clyde offers no factual basis (and I have seen none in my own studies) for the claim that Russian interference in the 2016 election has been either debunked or had an “infinitesimal” effect on our election. Porter’s analysis is more consistent with the factual materials that I have read and studied.
In an effort to understand whether there is a factual basis for the debunking claim, I have listened to Hannity and many of the talking heads that appear on FOX programs to see if they have identified any facts to support their claims and Trump’s claims about the lack of Russian interference. As best I can tell, their argument simply boils down to a claim that the application for FISA warrants were based on false information and that some FBI officials were biased against Trump. Trouble is, even if these claims were factually correct, they provide no factual basis for Clyde’s or Hannity’s assertion that findings are incorrect or untrue regarding Russian interference activities.
And I note that Clyde simply fails to cite or link a single factual source for his claims, which gives credibility to Porter’s conclusion that “Clyde believes anything he agrees with.” Indeed, if Clyde had factual support for his claims I suspect links to such support would have been provided.
I would agree, however, that Clyde’s choice not to vote in SD, assuming he or she is a qualified SD voter, probably made no difference on our State’s 3 electoral votes for the new Trumpistan above the law King world.
Otherwise, I also note that I am unsure just what Clyde “doesn’t buy.”
For Clyde – Here’s Your Test/Sign – This is the psychology test used by Steve Brannon and Cambridge Analytica. The results were used to change the way vulnerable people voted in four swing states. It’s illegal for any foreign entity to interfere in our elections. Cambridge Analytica was found guilty in London, forced to dissolve, and the executive went to prison.
The test gives users a score called their “OCEAN” score, referring to how it calculates performance on a measure of five personality traits: Openness, Conscientiousness, Extroversion, Agreeableness, and Neuroticism.
https://www.personalityassessor.com/ipip120/
Summation: The logical question is, “Why would someone take a 120 question test, on Facebook?”
Two things were promised to test takers. Two things that motivated. More and better sex and more money.
Now the illegal part … When a person took this seemingly innocuous test, the owner of Facebook gave the testing company secret access to that person’s Facebook friend list. And, to the friend lists of every friend of every friend of every friend from that test taker. With the speed of a super computer hundreds of millions of people’s Facebook accounts were downloaded by Cambridge Analytica. Cambridge Analytica then devised propaganda ads to target the test takers based on their psychological profiles and sent them Facebook messages that appeared to come from their friends and people they trusted. Machiavellian, illegal, and that’s how those 50,000 votes in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan flipped from Clinton to Trump. Enough electoral votes for the win. (This next part is newly exposed and it’s fascinating.)
*Here are the five ads used to flip voters based on their psych profiles.
https://qz.com/1782348/cambridge-analytica-used-these-5-political-ads-to-target-voters/
Zuckerberg told fFacebook users years ago he would not protect their privacy which is why I kicked Facebook cold turkey 7 or 8 years ago.
BTW, drumpf hired a former CA executive for his campaIgn this year.
MFI is as current as anybody. I didn’t know that, Mike. Three days ago Trump hired Matt Oczkowski, head of product at Cambridge Analytica.
You know, we spent two years putting together the case. A movie was even made. We succeeded and proved that Trump cheated to win. Then, he did it again in Ukraine. Turns out Republicans don’t care if the leader of their party is an ongoing crime in progress. They’d rather win with shame than admit the truth. Wadda ‘ya gonna do, ‘ya know? I guess that’s why the Patriots and Astros still have fans.
NEVADA CAUCUS – 4% counted – Bernie projected winner (Well, that was dramatic … not)
Debbo posted an interesting link to a Sheila Kennedy piece on a different thread and Kennedy plainly answers Clydes question, “Who benefits most by Russian interference?” The answer is Russia and China:
The quote is from the link Debbo provided:
is.gd/yc4Vdt
You are welcome Clyde!
Ridiculous to argue with arguer’s. BCB, how many whistle blowers can you name that have ever came forward from the intelligence community. Pompeo said he really learned how to lie when he got into the CIA.
Debbo’s link sounds pretty Info wars to me…….conspiracy! Ooooooh
I’m done….for now Sanders is kicking A!
Clyde, if I am not mistaken the names of whistleblowers are protected by law so that absent consent from a whistleblower or other unusual circumstances it is unlawful to disclose a whistleblower’s name.
Notwithstanding these rules against unconsented disclosure, here is a list of whistleblowers that include many individuals from U.S. law enforcement, U.S. national security agencies and the U.S. military whose name were apparently disclosed to the public.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers
BCB, I will not argue ad infinitum over this but you know d**n well that 16500 people didn’t have their hands on the Russia thing. For all we know it may have come from just one person. No one would have any reason or incentive to question it if they had no personal experience with it.
I don’t buy the “Info wars” stuff and I’m out of here.
GO BERNIE!
Clyde apparently has no clew what Info Wars does or has done. No one on Cory’s blog would ever use Alex Jones as a reliable source unless that(those) trolls were trolls and there have been several in the past year or two.
Whistleblowers are a federally protected species unless the fed is occupied by Russian agents like drumpf and wingnuts in both houses of congress.
Clyde, for all “you” know it may have come from one person. The majority of us know that Chubby trump could not have been elected without the Russian game plan. One building alone in St. Petersburg, Russia, had over 1,000 people working on this.
“The Internet Research Agency, based in Saint Petersburg and described as a troll farm, created thousands of social media accounts that purported to be Americans supporting radical political groups, and planned or promoted events in support of Trump and against Clinton; they reached millions of social media users between 2013 and 2017. Fabricated articles and disinformation were spread from Russian government-controlled media, and promoted on social media. Additionally, computer hackers affiliated with the Russian military intelligence service (GRU) infiltrated information systems of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC), and Clinton campaign officials, notably chairman John Podesta, and publicly released stolen files and emails through DCLeaks, Guccifer 2.0 and WikiLeaks during the election campaign. Finally, several individuals connected to Russia contacted various Trump campaign associates, offering business opportunities to the Trump Organization and damaging information on Clinton. Russian government officials have denied involvement in any of the hacks or leaks.”
Russia does have an incentive to destroy the two countries that give them the most threat, the UK and the US. Brexit will destroy the UK with the Chubby clone, Boris Johnson and Chubby will give the keys to the city to Putin by weaking NATO and our standing in the world. Both nations have plenty of traitors that welcomed Russia with open arms. Ever wonder how in the hell the developers of the internet could be hacked so easily? Why not France? What does France do that prevents that crap? Look it up.
Putin doesn’t want our farms, he wants us to farm for him…as his pool boys.
France does not have the traitor McConnell tamping down voter protection. France may have a lot of things that we don’t like (foie gras), but they take democracy seriously… or you can lose your melon, “let them eat cake”…my arse
https://www.euractiv.com/section/elections/news/how-france-successfully-countered-russian-interference-during-the-presidential-election/
Why can’t we be like France? We could have healthcare, time off, great cheese and wine, fantastic railroads…and me, what a concept!!
Clyde, I haven’t been “arguing” with you in my last several comments. Rather, after responding to your request for my opinion I have repeatedly simply answered questions you asked and offered confirming factual information supported by links to generally accepted credible sources (never with “Info wars,” however, as I agree that is not a credible source).
I am still curious and fully willing to consider reviewing any credible source you might point me to disputing the various factual information that has informed my opinions. Recall I even took the time to watch the video you linked that urged Democrats supporting Bernie not to vote for any other Democrat in the general election, and I offered factual information (again from linked sources generally considered credible) in response to that video.
So if you are really done here I simply thank you for your questions that I feel encouraged me to post factual information that hopefully informed DFP readers about the reality behind the issues discussed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAFlqJQDdI
Clyde, well there’s 11 minutes of my life I wasted listening to pure nasty snark and ad hominem attacks spewed by Kristal Ball and her companion on MSNBC newscasters, rather than any factual information pertaining to our prior discussion. I don’t blame you, however, since I should know better than to click on links when the commenter fails to identify why the link was posted or what to look for that the commenter asserts might be relevant to our prior discussion in the materials linked. I will certainly try to avoid making that mistake again. Mea culpa.
Why would thinking people denounce NBC Nightly News and believe extremist opinion programs masquerading as news? Clyde. What’s your motivation?
BCB, Ms. Ball is no longer on MSNBC and hasn’t been for quite some time. Perhaps it was such “reporting” that ended her tenure there. She has become known as an All Sanders All the Time opiner via video.
Bernie’s Nevada win was blamed by a kook at Fox Business for the market sell off today.
Debbo, my comment was a bit misleading due to my ambigous or imprecise language. I did not mean that Ball was “on” MSNBC, rather she was on a video from the Hill where she was attacking various newscasters (Chris Matthews, Joy Reid and others) who are regulars on MSNBC.
Hey, FoxNews! It’s recognized by world wide analysts that today’s market sell off is because the Corona beer virus is spreading to Europe.
*However, it will be a circus show when Bernie is our candidate and big money retaliates. Bernie’s ready. He’s been fighting Wall Street longer than most traders have been working.
Well, I’m betting there are folks reading this that are actually interested in being informed with another point of view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8io9WfiGQzY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBwKuy0qn5U
Buttigieg has dropped out of the race today. I didn’t expect that. After Super Tuesday I expect Amy to go, even though she’s likely to win Minnesota, her home state. Warren may as well, or she may hang on for awhile.
Good news for Democrats:
“The South Carolina electorate was 5% whiter than it was 2016 — something Hamby had predicted — but these weren’t Bernie voters.
“They were swing-y suburban moderates — affluent college-educated whites — who live across the border from Charlotte and along the coast, and who’ve flocked to the Democratic Party since Trump’s election.”
Axios, Mike Allen
Yeah! Liar-in-Chief is chasing decent people away from the GOP! Hurray!!
grudznick is saddened by Mr. Buttigieg quitting. Damn quitter. I fear the libbies will foist a Bernie on us again and ensure that Mr. Trump will be elected. Libbies, this is grudznick’s call to you to put forth a sane person.
Looks like Fox and the rest of the establishment propaganda has been working on this group. On the intelligent SC voters as well.
What establishment propaganda, and what group?
Cory, Grudz and several other respondents to this discussion represent the “group” that are obviously opposed to Sen Sanders just as the “establishment” press has been pushing. Establishment press would be all of what you will see on your TV. The ones that push the “Russian asset”. The ones that say his plans are too expensive and not realistic. The ones that say he can’t beat Trump even when the majority of the polls say he is the only one that can.
To me it appears that we have moved to only one party in this country and that is the MONEY party. They control the press, the DNC and the RNC. If they can’t be defeated in this election I rather doubt there will be another chance. I will consider democracy in this country to be dead.
I’ll hold my nose and vote for Bernie if he’s the Democratic nominee, but I’m not voting for him in the primary. Clyde’s and other’s cult-like belief in Bernie as the Only One, is why I can’t stand Bernie, and why he would be bad for this country. I never was a fan of cult leaders. We’ve got one in the White House now.
Like Donald Pay said, but, if all of us don’t get behind the nominee, whoever it will be, drumpf will likely get 2 more seats on the Scotus and then there will be serious hell to pay. We also must take the senate and keep the house.
What Mike and Don said.
Clyde, polls right now are saying every Democrat can beat Liar-in-Chief.
VOTE BLUE, NO MATTER WHO!!!
That’s both houses of Congress as well. Moscow Mitch has got to go. No more Pootie Puppet Traitors in US government. They belong in prison instead.
Why was drumpf urging Dems to vote for Bernie? Why does Putin appear to support Bernie?
Debbo, Amy is out of the race.
Clyde reminds me of the Michael Moore line – two parties for the rich, none for the rest of us.
I would say one huge difference between Sanders and Trump is that Sanders seems to be a revolution (cult?) of ideology – of big ideas; whereas the cult of Trump is purely a cult of personality that has no ideas, has nothing to stand for except the greed of the individual leader. I don’t see Sanders getting rich from where he would take the Presidency or the nation.
I just saw that Mike. Probably a good decision. She’s endorsing Biden, not a surprise.
Debbo, I don’t agree with the “vote blue, no matter who” line and that any Dem can beat Trump. I’ve seen polls that add in the incumbent factor that say he isn’t going to be all that easy to beat. As to the primary Sanders will need a majority before the convention because the super delegates have been put on record that they will take the nomination away from him.
Perhaps I’m overdoing it on this forum in my support but to me it seems pretty obvious that the establishment doesn’t want him in the worst way. They don’t seem threatened by any of the rest and since I’m fed up with the establishment I can only see one candidate.
It does feel like the Democratic ant-Sanders rhetoric is more fiery than in ’16. Is that because Biden is a weaker “establishment” candidate than Clinton was?
Maybe I’m becoming more left in my old age, but I’m not really clear as to what Democrats have to fear from Sanders. The party has been so whipped to the right to appease the GOP that it is starting to feel like GOP crazy-right and GOP light as the two options.
I hope all these manipulations backfire and supporters flee to Warren.
o, its my opinion that with Sanders the “money “party is afraid they will have to pay some taxes!
538 does a very thorough job on polls, including and weighing every factor. They say any of the Democrats who are in the race right now poll better than Slimy Sleazebag. 538 also reminds us there is a lot of time between now and November.
In addition, I have read on several reputable sources that if Sanders has a pretty big lead, super delegates will not vote for another candidate because many delegates will revolt.
Don’t forget, after the first vote, all delegates can vote for anyone. Who will Buttigieg and Amy give their delegates to? Looks like Biden. Warren will probably withdraw Wednesday. Where will she point her delegates? I’d guess to Sanders. There’s still lots to play out before the convention.
And will Gabbard reveal herself as another of Pootie’s Puppets and run 3rd party?
Anyone who doesn’t vote for the Democratic nominee in November enables Liar-in-Chief. No way around that. Whether an individual votes 3rd party or stays home, they hurt the USA.
Debbo, I think Warren will do as she has said she will do and stay in the race to the end in hopes of getting any political capitol she can. Offer of VP? AG? from Biden?? Bloomberg??
A couple of video’s that may interest you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNg3Sg6Tpl4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNb8x83klOk
Debbo, Gabbard as “pooties puppet”, wow. Third party. The one that should run third party, but that won’t, is Sanders after the super delegates take the nomination away from him. He might just beat Trump as a third party candidate but one thing that would be assured would be that any one that the super delegates picked to run against Trump would NOT beat Trump.
Maybe Gabbard is a straight up conservative Democrat. I don’t know. Time will tell, as with all the rest.
Fox is declaring super Tuesday as a victory for Donald Trump. I agree. The super PAC’s and anti Bernie propaganda machine have done their job.
Sleepy [senile] Joe with closets full of demons to be drug out by the R party will likely be your next candidate.
Trump for life!
Anyone who “honestly” is not a Trump supporter would refrain from bad-mouthing a likely opponent of Trump. Bad-mouthing Trump’s opponent evidences either a pro-Trump objective or an incredible lack of insight about what sort of personal behavior might help Trump get re-elected.
drumpf doesn’t think Super Tuesday was a victory for himself. He lashed out at Dems hanging on that he claims cost Bernie his moment in the sun. I will repeat this article I posted elsewhere….
Former Vice President Joe Biden pulled off a series of huge Super Tuesday victories and President Donald Trump is clearly not happy about it. In a series of tweets sent Wednesday morning, Trump angrily railed against the “Democratic establishment,” and, more specifically, Sen. Elizabeth Warren, for what he sees as a concerted effort to derail Sen. Bernie Sanders’ campaign. Trump wrote: “The Democrat establishment came together and crushed Bernie Sanders, AGAIN! Even the fact that Elizabeth Warren stayed in the race was devastating to Bernie and allowed Sleepy Joe to unthinkably win Massachusetts… So selfish for Elizabeth Warren to stay in the race. She has Zero chance of even coming close to winning, but hurts Bernie badly. So much for their wonderful liberal friendship. Will he ever speak to her again? She cost him Massachusetts (and came in third), he shouldn’t!
Will this juvenile infant ever stop whining?
Here is the link to above… https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-squirms-over-bidens-unthinkable-super-tuesday-wins?ref=home
The above paragraph is essentially the whole story.
I’m afraid that Trump hit the nail on the head, Mike. Can’t see where he is coming from with this though.
Sooo, BCB, you are saying I should fall in line and bow down to the MONEY party that is clearly running this so called “democracy”.
My contribution will likely be to just stop voting. Something I have done all my life but no longer see a point in. There is only one party and you and everyone else is going to have to be happy with the bone they throw you now and then.
Stop voting is a sure way to get drumpf re-elected, Clyde. Why on Earth would you do such a foolish thing if you didn’t want to keep the status quo?
No Clyde, I am saying that your comments attacking the Dem’s choice of a Trump opponent constitutes de facto Trump support, whatever your motivation or actual beliefs.
Clyde: “Fox is declaring super Tuesday as a victory for Donald Trump”
Although to be fair, I believe they also declared the Super Bowl, World Series, and finale of Game of Thrones as victories for Trump as well. Event X = Trump victory is kinda their jam.
Clyde, you need the same intestinal fortitude this black gentleman from Texas has…..
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/wasnt-going-to-let-anything-stop-me-texas-man-votes-after-enduring-seven-hour-line-at-the-polls/
Its my opinion that with Biden as the candidate the election is lost to Trump anyway. My vote won’t matter especially since I live in the reddest state in the union whose three electoral votes to Trump are virtually a guarantee. Amazing what the right and the money party have accomplished while the electorate slept.
If Clyde really believes that neither his comments nor his vote matter in SD, then that suggests his public Biden attacks and denigration of voting are designed to influence voters that read DFP in neighboring states, like swing state Wisconsin, where a small shortage of votes for Clinton resulted in Trump’s 2016 election.
This, in turn, adds to the objective evidence that comments like Clyde’s constitute de facto Trump support and look a lot like just what groups such as the Internet Research Agency are implemented to accomplish.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency
Just had to put this somewhere….. https://www.kcci.com/article/man-sentenced-for-tossing-water-on-iowa-rep-king/31260666#
Colorado guy tosses cup of water at poor white scumacyst Steve King and he gets 2 years of probation and 200 hours of community service.
Should have gotten a Nobel at the least. That was likely the closest king has come to being clean in his entire political life. We should be cheering for Colorado man.
King assaults my sense of hearing and sense of smell when he is in the same zip code as I am in. That is a real assault!
Couldn’t have happened to a more deserving jackass.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/louie-gohmert-and-steve-king-take-to-house-floor-to-suggest-the-deep-state-killed-a-man?ref=home
Here we go again, chasing dead body suicides.