But hey, members of the Resistance! Don’t let Trumpists pretend to occupy the high ground of principle. They’ll sell out their professed Christian decency to defend an indicted adulterous Congressman like Duncan Hunter just to grab power and upend the Constitution through judicial activism:
Rebecca Bartel, a professor of religious studies at San Diego State University who has been following the Hunter case, has another theory about why the scandal has yet to threaten Hunter’s re-election.
She said many white evangelical Christians are playing “the long game” and are willing to overlook personal indiscretions of elected leaders if they pass laws and appoint judges who are favorable to their core beliefs.
“It’s about putting different people on the Supreme Court,” Bartel said. “It’s about rewriting laws and recreating a kind of atmosphere where these individuals no longer feel like they are being persecuted.”
Paul Goren, who teaches political psychology and other courses at the University of Minnesota, said many voters overlook the personal behavior of elected officials because they support their positions on culture-war touchstones like abortion and same-sex marriage.
“It just blinds partisans to a lot of these indiscretions that lots of members of Congress are engaging in,” he said [Jeff McDonald and Morgan Cook, “Hunter Indictment Sheds Light on ‘Personal Relationships’ for Congressman,” San Diego Union-Tribune, 2018.09.05].
Sounds familiar: how many South Dakota partisans are going to overlook Kristi Noem’s lies about estate tax just so they can feel good about electing a do-nothing governor? How many South Dakota partisans will ignore Larry Rhoden’s chronic lawbreaking just so they can have a manly lieutenant governor? How many abortion absolutists will ignore Jason Ravnsborg’s lack of ethics, courage, and qualifications because they think that his ability to shout “Let’s ban abortion!” will help him win actual court cases?
Is this really the government you’re fighting for, conservative Christian absolutists? Pierre and Washington filled with philanderers, fakers, and scofflaws who just happen to vote your way on a couple of issues but lead society into much broader incompetence and decline?
It shouldn’t be hard to argue that, even if you are a committed conservative, you’d do better for your state and country to vote for honest Democrats than dishonest Republicans.
Probably time for a new approach —-
Conquer the angry man by love.
Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness.
Conquer the miser with generosity.
Conquer the liar with truth.
(Dhammapada)
….. and, oh yeah, VOTE Democrat
How bad are phony kristian wingnuts? How hypocritical are they? They are willingly crawling into bed with Putin because of his stance on Gays.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/02/how-russia-became-a-leader-of-the-worldwide-christian-right-214755
Some even helped Uganda write laws condemning gays to death
http://prospect.org/article/exporting-anti-gay-movement
Rather than considering these religious zealots hypocrites it may be appropriate to empathize with a dilemma that they find themselves experiencing. Unfortunately, they just might be convinced by Republican messaging that Democrats are evil incarnate and worse than any “philanderers, fakers, and scofflaws” in the Republican party. In other words, they may believe they have a choice between two evils and have concluded that Republican “philanderers, fakers, and scofflaws” are not as bad as Democrats. Thus, they rationalize supporting “philanderers, fakers, and scofflaws” despite their obvious flaws.
For example, many religious folks claim to only have voted for Trump because they were somehow convinced he was less evil than Clinton. Many pro-choice SD Democrats will support Sutton despite his anti-choice/pro-life stand because they feel Noem is a much worse choice.
I am not sure what the solution is, but it seems simply labeling or criticizing these religious folks might be a bit counterproductive. Perhaps it would be a more powerful message to focus on the ways that Democrats advance religious ideals compared to Repubicans so that the Democrats can be seen as the actual lesser of two evils from a broader religious perspective.
Right on, BCB. We are the religious people. Their problems are our problems. That they’ve been misled isn’t their fault. It’s the fault of those bearing false witness against US. Because we are religion and religion is good.
I am shattered. You want to say nasty things about me and I’m gonna call you names and grrr#$(&*^%#$!@@#$$%^!
You are most likely right. like usual bcb. :)
BCB, part of the solution to the problem you explain is to fight the false equivalency. We must not indulging lazy dismissals of both parties as bad. We must promote real discernment and consistent application of principles to each situation.
So specifically, if a conservative says, “Ravnsborg makes mistakes, but Democrats do, too, so those mistakes cancel out and I can justify defaulting to the pro-life position,” we should respond, “Wait a minute. Don’t compare Ravnsborg to Hillary or whomever else you hear about on Fox News. Compare Ravnsborg to Seiler. What campaign finance laws has Seiler broken? What ethical lapses has he committed in this campaign?”
If a conservative dismisses Noem’s lies about her estate tax as no worse than Democrats’ lies, we should ask, “What lies has Sutton told?” We have to break down the false equivalency and ask advocates to explain their positions on a case-by-case basis, not in broad generalizations.
Now one could say that even challenging those conservative religious folks with these questions may push them away, but then what’s the point of discourse? Those conservatives don’t go around saying, “Oh, let’s not criticize liberals, because it might make them feel bad and intensify their commitment to their cause.” Heck no—they Atwatered up and went to war. We cannot namby-pam around in response to their war; we must give as good as we get.
My empathy for racists, bigots, and hypocrites is at zero. If I’m being a racist, bigot, or hypocrite, I want to know about it so I can stop it… or at least address the misperception that leads others to think I’m one of those things. If those people can’t be pulled from their prejudices by discourse, then there is no good way to bring them back other than to rally persuadables to vote in greater numbers for our side and re-establish a decent, principled government.
Cory, false equivalency seems to be a standard propaganda technique that seeks to avoid the merits of any problem. I agree that it is worth challenging in any argument. One challenge that makes sense is a “so what” challenge. Prior alleged bad conduct can never justify new bad conduct.
It seems that a significant portion of the population either likes being lied to or lacks the ability to discern that it’s being lied to. We can’t do much about the first category of people, but the second category we can work to enlighten. Many of those folks are skeptical of media sources, so we need to find a better way to reach them. Maybe we should have some coordinated social media campaigns to propagate truth kind of like the Russian social media campaign to propagate propaganda.
But what if you consider the false equivalency issue from an anti-abortion perspective? If one believes that abortion is taking a life, then is it unreasonable to believe that breaking campaign finance laws isn’t as bad?
You could argue that someone who lies in one area of their life may very well be lying about their professed anti-abortion beliefs. That they’re just using you and will throw the issue under the bus if it suits their purposes.
Perhaps also emphasize other positions your candidate holds that will help families.
This is just my theory, which is every bit as qualified as your California girl’s, is the reason republicans control the state and will continue to win, including Noem becoming governor, is the people have grown tired of hearing every democrat running around calling everyone else racist and liars. I mean it is constant and it is every where. You turn on the news and they are all crying about Trumpster or republicans or the next judge will destroy everything and end all life on earth and nothing bad ever happens. It is honestly as if none of you have ever heard the story of the “Boy who cried wolf” or the “Sky is falling”. For too long people like most of you posters and the media have been throwing word bombs in every direction at every body and the people know it isn’t true. I am only telling you these things because I used to be a democrat as well but you have become radicalized. I love our Nation and all of you too much to allow you or the other misguided illiterate radicals to destroy our home. Your party did this to themselves and all of you who are jumping on this name calling bandwagon are at fault for all the losing. You have also hurt a good man Billie Sutton. He could have won had you not destroyed the party.
Old Sarge has no idea of what the people think. He just makes things up to salve his neuroses. Troubled minds concoct a sense of group involvement to avoid their loneliness.
I am curious OldSarge. You seem to have thought much about the demise of your former political party, so knowing what you do, do/will you support Sutton for Governor — or will you hurt “a good man” (your words) to lash out against a party?
Can you also see a level of moral rot in the GOP, or is this a phenomena of only the Democrat party?
I honestly don’t like either party however when faced with a decision between who potentially can do less harm I have to vote republican
I have thought about it and I do like Sutton. I think Sutton would have been a very good governor but he made a mistake he can’t cure in any way other than to switch parties.
In just a short list here is how the democrats lost it:
1) 2012 was when the Obama campaign omitted God and Jerusalem and claimed it was a “technical” error, but it was Obama signed off on the original godless platform, then the campaign denied he had approved it. An obvious lie.
2) You support homosexuality
3) Obama had the government try to put enough weapons in Mexico to blame our lack of gun control on the violence in Mexico and undermine the 2nd Amendment.
4) Obama created ISIS to fill the gap he left by pulling our troops too soon.
5) People believe transgenderism is a ‘Mental Disorder” and that Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’
6) You call us nasty names.
7) You are bullies
8) Benghazi
9) Open borders
10) Illegals
The list can go on forever it seems but the point is the democrats have aligned with what can go by no other name than evil. This is the legacy Obama has left the democrats and why you are shedding numbers quicker than a dog sheds hair in spring. The democrats are morally corrupt and this destroys any chance Sutton has. Sutton is a good guy and would be a good governor but he picked the losing side to run with.
The republicans are losers as well but just not on the same scale. I dislike them for not standing up to the leftist attacks like adults. They let bullies, like many on this site, run right over them. I don’t run and don’t tolerate cowards but there are more good republicans than there are democrats. Watch the Kavqanaugh hearings. . .
Now I know I got in the weeds on this but facts are facts and no democrat can win the governorship in South Dakota period. It’s like a midget basketball team playing White River: I’m sure you will give it a good try but the boys who have the team, talent and training are going to win. I will caution you that as long as attacking others and calling them nasty names, like racist, you will continue to lose. People don’t like nasty mouthed bullies and you can’t stand over someone and bully them when they vote. . . Most people here are “South Dakota Nice”. The will act like they are listening as you yell at them, smile, walk away and vote against you.
Dems try to help everyone. Wingnuts help the wealthy. Dems are the dangerous ones. Makes sense if you have no sense.
OS wrote:
“I will caution you that as long as attacking others and calling them nasty names, like racist, you will continue to lose. People don’t like nasty mouthed bullies and you can’t stand over someone and bully them when they vote.”
Do I really need to remind you that the man who heads your Republican party has a claim to fame based upon attacking others and calling them nasty names? How can you lecture people on name-calling and nastiness when Donald Trump is your standard-bearer?
So what Darin? I’m not Trump. You’re not Trump. Trump is Trump but the vast amount of nasty attacks come from people you have decided to side with against the American people. Now I know you are crying “No! I’m not against the American people! I’m against racist people” but you guys call anyone that doesn’t agree with you racist and THAT is the problem. You guys attack everyone you disagree with. You do not argue rationally you attack with your nasty mouths and whether you like it or not this is the impression you are leaving with the people who vote. I’m just the guy telling you the truth. You can call me a liar, racist or whatever but the fact is this is the people you have decided you want to support and those people have a nasty habit of being mean and bullying others. The sad part is I have told you this and you will still act the way you act because you have lost your moral compass. Trump didn’t cast the number of votes that got him elected. The people you have offended voted for Trump as a quiet “South Dakota Nice” way of not voting for those you align with. It’s just the way it is. I can’t change you and you are not willing to be civil. It’s the way it is. Yo decided that you and those of your ilk no longer want to win. It was a choice.
I guess that, as a Buddhist, I’m ion the minority ??
So , to be clear, no one in this thread yet has offered a coherent justification for the rank Machiavellian amorality of Duncan Hunter and the professed Christians who excuse such misbehavior, right? No one has offered a rebuttal to the statements that Noem, Rhoden, and Ravnsborg have all committed moral or legal infractions that call into question their qualification for public office, right?
Methinks you exaggerate and insult and write too voluminously for me to take you seriously, OldSarge. If you didn’t exaggerate so much and weren’t quite so “adversarial” and long-winded about it, you might learn something from others.
I used to be a Catholic. That doesn’t mean I know letter and verse about what the Church is TODAY. But I know a few things that you don’t have a CLUE about.
Cory wrote:
So , to be clear, no one in this thread yet has offered a coherent justification for the rank Machiavellian amorality of Duncan Hunter and the professed Christians who excuse such misbehavior, right? No one has offered a rebuttal to the statements that Noem, Rhoden, and Ravnsborg have all committed moral or legal infractions that call into question their qualification for public office, right?
It’s not moral to murder babies in a womb.
It’s also not moral to steal. (Progressive taxes)
You are for both of those.
Does that mean you should not be running for office?
Jason: your aspersions are self-indicting.
It is not moral to murder children and adults by denying them access to health care or shelter (especially after a hurricane), or having them die in protracted foreign wars.
It is not moral to steal. (Tax breaks for the rich and deregulation of banking and investment companies)
You (and the GOP) are both of those.
o
1) There are earthquakes, hurricanes, fires and all kinds of natural events that take lives around the world. Do you blame all the deaths associated with those natural events on others? Abortion is a “choice”. The person so opts for an abortion has made the decision to end the life of a child that has no defense. This is when it is easiest for cowards to kill. You support abortion so you actually support killing. This is why you are seen as radical and evil by moral people. I don’t support the death penalty either but I do believe in the right to self defense. That is called “balance”. Protect and defend the innocent and call evil what it is. This is how you live in a civil society. This is why you have self identified as a person outside of civil behavior.
2) How are tax breaks theft? I think a tax break is just the happenstance of not having to pay your own money to someone else. That is not theft.
OldSarge, I blame the non-existent response of President Trump to the citizens of Puerto Rico, his choice to not help, those who were helpless in the face of environmental destruction (exacerbated by climate change – also a choice).
By the way, I do not “support abortion.” I accept the law of the land defining the scope of medical procedures. I accept the legal standard of when life begins for the purpose of defining murder. You do not get to decide what counts as murder and what doesn’t counts as killing; those are defined legal terms. Your self-defense taking of life is much taking a life as any other taking of life. You claim the moral high ground, then immediately cede it with your now version of when killing is OK for you.
But to be clear: I stand for the free access to pre-natal health care for mother and expected child, the fully funded delivery costs for EVERY child in America, full paid medical family leave, continued free access to health care for the life of all, access to education, the right to collectively negotiate salary and benefits in the workplace, the right to a guaranteed fair wage, the right to retirement benefits. If we would crate the America we deserve (an clearly can afford) then see what happens to abortion choices when women face a better America to bring that child into. Roe V Wade is the Sword of Damocles that hangs above our society’s head at all times, dangling by a thread, providing the absolute threat of response when we do not create the society every expectant mother and child can embrace.
Your singular focus on abortion makes you neither pro-life nor moral.
Needless to say, you ignore the killing and destruction of life from your GOP created and protracted wars in the Middle East — as usual, trying to pretend something that does not conform to your world view does not exist. You ignore the incessant push to remove health care access form the neediest of citizens – the absolute creation of real-life death panels.
A civil society take care of its weakest, poorest, most frail citizens. You also ignore the rank dismissal of this moral responsibility by your GOP.
Finally, my taxation example was as absurd as Jason’s. If progressive (unequal) taxation is immoral, then so must the the unequal reduction of taxes be immoral. Again, you (and Jason) set the goal posts, then want to move them when not convenient. Taking a dollar from a poor person is far worse than taking two dollars from a rich person. If you truly want to talk morality, let’s throw in the condemnation of immoral consumption and obscene wealth on the immorality of the GOP (although I do concede there are Democrats who eat from that trough as well – but lesser of two evils . . .)
o, thanks for an excellent post. I suspect most of Cory’s commenters and most Democrats share many of the values you have expressed. It is great to see these concepts set forth here in such an articulate and powerful manner.
BTW, OS, explain this- https://www.cnn.com/2013/01/26/us/colorado-fetus-lawsuit/index.html
Catholic Church argued in court (they were being sued for allowing a pregnant woman and twin fetusses to die in the hospital) that fetus is not a human being until it is born alive.
So much for sincerely held religious beliefs, huh?
o~
1) “non-existent response of President Trump to the citizens of Puerto Rico” You have no idea how much help our Nation poured into Puerto Rico or the condition of the electrical grid before the hurricane even occurred. Our Nation did respond and in a huge way but if you expect everything to be back to normal even today you need to stop by Biloxi and see the damage still remaining after Katrina. But as to the help that was sent to the island this “made up” lack of help rotted away in shipping containers the “Puerto Rican Government Union” would not move. Emergency generators were in place at every major hospital within 4 days. I spoke with one Navy Officer who responded with the Seabees and he said within two weeks after the hurricane they were searching on the back roads for even trees to clear. Our government did a good job helping in Puerto Rico and unless you take your fat ass down to help or even look you should drop the whole media lies crap.
2) Killing babies. You said “I accept the law of the land” and I will say the law of the land once said the Black man was property and that law was wrong as well. Killing is killing.
3) “I stand for the free access ” then YOU pay for it. You have no right to other peoples money. Do it on your own. Go stand in front of the hospital and hand out payments but whether you believe it or not the rest of America is not responsible for your own actions, sickness or debts.
4) “Needless to say, you ignore the killing and destruction of life from your GOP created and protracted wars in the Middle East” but it was all a GOP creation was it? Hillary on Libya~ ‘We came, we saw, he died’, Hillary on Iraq~ ““I was one who supported giving President Bush the authority, if necessary, to use force against Saddam Hussein. I believe that that was the right vote. I have had many disputes and disagreements with the administration over how that authority has been used, but I stand by the vote”. So, your candidate supports attacking countries who did not attack us and countries that the CIA, DOJ and FBI lied to us about but you believe them when it comes to lies about Trump? Gotcha.
5) Finally, your taxation example was as absurd and your arguments fall on ears that are not hearing you because they are not your words or arguments. You are parroting the very people who are trying to bring our Nation down but hey, it’s your party and you can burn what you want too. . .
What I truly find astounding is your claims to care at the same time you support attacks on our home and the killing of our children. You and all your ilk run around calling everyone else nazis, racist, xenophobes acting as if you are a feminist all the while creeping up to get close to women and them abusing them has gotten me sick to my stomach. The whole democrat lefts is no more than a cesspool of nasty mouthed creeps. I feel sorry for dumb Tiffany protesting something she believes while all you leeches are trying to creep up close to her. The whole bunch of you need help.
https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/oct/03/blog-posting/fake-news-posts-blame-puerto-ricos-truck-drivers-r/
Fake noize again, OldSimpleton. Read it and actually learn something for once besides hate. Pants on FIRE!!!!!! Liar.
2) Killing babies. You said “I accept the law of the land” and I will say the law of the land once said the Black man was property and that law was wrong as well. Killing is killing.
Operative word is was, Gomer. Slavery was legal at one time. No more. A woman’s right to choose autonomy over her own body is none of your damn business and IS the law of the land.
Keep calling everyone names and we’ll see if you get a much deserved ban hammer for intentionally, willfully and maliciously breaking Cory’s rules everytime you open your jaw jacky jacky.
mike not only are you stupid you are boring. . .
At least I am not a habitual liar, liar.
OldSarge, two themes are very clear in your inconsistent rant: One) Morality is something you define for others, but can flout personally when it suits you, and Two) morality stops when the dollars are at stake. You are not pro-life; you are pro-wealth. I am willing to pay for my society, you are not. You are selfish, hypocritical, feeding off the benefits of society with no regard to how others are paying to give you a level of social security but quickly want to sever your obligation to fund other’s ability to enjoy similar security. Unlike you, I believe in a social safety net, even when that net stretches to envelop and protect those like yourself. I believe in “We the people . . .” you view it as a punch line.
1) The US could have deployed a modern Marshal Plan to really make the kind of lasting difference in Peurto Rico that was needed. If that destruction had happened in the community of Mar Largo, the President’s response would have been radically different. The CITIZENS of Peurto Rico have not been treated with the deference and urgency due them. Again, part of the fault of that may well be the logistics of having SO much of our National Guard deployed in the GOP foreign engagements in the Middle East.
I see you again conveniently ignore the global warming CHOICES made to perpetuate profit — choices that lead to the level of catastrophe of events like the hurricanes in Puerto Rico.
2) Your argument that the law has been wrong in the past is not an argument it is wrong now. I ask you to read the article MFI posted about the hypocrisy of even the Catholic Church on the “life” status of the unborn. If killing is killing, stand with me to get our troops of the Middle East, end the death penalty, remove or secure guns in homes (where they pose a far greater threat to the occupants than to assailants), and reject “stand your ground” laws that make killing the first, easiest choice, and the unacceptable loss of the lives of young black men for non-executable offenses.
3) Again, I would point out how much I want a full life-long respect for life and health care – a goal you reject for reasons of greed – not for morality. You want to restrict choice and ignore the societal factors that push those choices; I want to enrich society and make options better, to open up the avenues for choices made from hope not desperation.. Not just my taxes, I say the the entire tax structure of the US is immoral given what we choose to spend on and not spend on — magnified recently by big give-backs to the most wealthy. Your answer of it being and issue of individual choice to help others magnifies the immorality of the minimalist support you WOULD choose to be taxed for if left up to you. I do not know when the GOP adopted greed as a moral good, but I disagree with that stance. You also continue to ignore the GOP’s immoral rush to remove access to health care from the neediest Americans and literally take food from the neediest of its children.
4) the Afghanistan and Iraq wars belong to George Bush. He lied to the UN and to this nation about the threats that justified his war – now the longest war of US history. A war that stays under the radar because the costs both human and treasure have never really been put in front of this nation honestly. Certainly he got some Democrats to vote with him (based on his lies), but those Democrats could NEVER have instigated those wars without him calling the charge.
5) I already agreed my taxation point is absurd — it mirrored Jason’s reasoning and THAT WAS MY POINT. Jason was absurd.
Please, tell me again that my words are not mine as you regurgitate talking points from Fox News.
Please, continue to condemn generalizing all Republicans as Nazis, xenophobes, and racists, but then continue to generalize all Democrats when condemning generalizations. While this President occupies the White House, NO-ONE in the GOP ought to draw attention to creeping on women; that mirror held up to this President does not reflect well.
Any day of the week, I will put the character of my party up to the character of yours; I will put the character of the President you spurn, Obama, up to the Character of President Trump.
Os … O has the intellectual high ground, the logical firepower and the argumentative skills to bury your emotional, incongruent outbursts, every time.
“these individuals no longer feel like they are being persecuted.”
Cory wrote this in reference to the Christian Right. It reflects on a slight diminution of privilege they perceived; their Nirvana being the mid 20th century. (I probably should have said “heaven,” rather than “nirvana.” 😊)
Now Christians are asked to more fully share the USA with other religions, per the US Constitution, and it’s a rather recent change. Their dominance being lessened in this way feels very threatening. It’s an entirely new feeling and the Christian Right describes that feeling as “persecution” and a “loss of religious freedom.”
Of course what they are experiencing is not at all persecution, nor a loss of freedom and the majority of Christians know that. All the other religions in the USA doubly know that because those other religions truly have experienced levels of loss of religious freedom and persecution in this nation.
Therefore, I think 2 things might be helpful:
1. Finding more ways to demonstrate to the Christian conservative people that they are free to practice their religion privately as they see fit, and publicly within non-discriminatory bounds.
2. Ignore the leadership, except for criminal and hypocritical acts. They’ve got huge $ stakes in keeping people feeling persecuted/fearful and they’re greedy charlatans. Whenever we can show the previous, we should, but otherwise. Pffft!
Jason, I’m pretty sure I’ve already disposed of those distractions multiple times.
Abortion is not murder. No state, no law, no Republican politician honestly treats it that way.
I’m not aborting any pregnancy. Never have, never will.
I’m not stealing.
Taxation is not theft… although if if it is, you can’t define progressive taxation as theft and regressive taxation as not theft.
I’m just an honest Democrat offering myself as a superior alternative to a dishonest Republican. You bet I should be running for office. My principles aren’t just campaign slogans meant to trick people into voting for me so I can return to some elite club in Pierre and do the opposite of what I told the people I stood for.
I also endorse the principles O laid out and will follow them far more consistently than the Republicans named in the original post are following their professed slogans. I’m not terrible interested in power. I’m interested in seeing that all of government is run on American principles, not corporate, Russian, or fake-Christian principles.
To paraphrase Gandhi, Christianity sounds like a great idea. Republicans calling themselves Christians should try it sometime.
Debbo, excellent point about how losing exclusive privilege is not the same as losing real freedom. All we want is for everyone to enjoy the same basic freedoms that have been limited to certain lucky and declining majorities.
Christian conservatives have the religious freedom to be as hypocritical as they want in applying their religious convictions to what they support to gain earthly power. But morally, they have an obligation to be honest about their priorities. If conservative Christians think gaining and holding power is more important than living moral Christian lives, they should just say so and stop pretending that their put-on piety somehow makes them morally superior to those of us who spend our Sundays differently.