Our lower-than-national-average income inequality isn’t tempering some folks’ perception of South Dakota as a hard place to live. More of our neighbors killed themselves last year than ever before:
The Helpline Center handles South Dakota calls to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline.
Calls handled by the agency increased 43 percent between 2014 and 2017.
Meanwhile, the state Department of Health reported 192 suicide deaths in South Dakota last year, a 36 percent increase from 2014. It’s the highest number ever recorded in the state.
Suicide is a leading cause of death in South Dakota. It’s the third biggest cause of death for children ages 5-14 in the state, and the second biggest cause of death for young adults ages 15-24, according to five years of data collected by state health officials [Patrick Anderson, “South Dakotans Are Calling for Suicide Prevention More Often,” that Sioux Falls paper, 2018.07.22].
I have no solution to offer here. I wonder, though—could the increase in suicide have some connection to the drug abuse problem that both of our Attorney General candidates want to prioritize?
Update 20:30 CDT: An eager reader with an eye toward solving problems with vigorous public health policy notes that the State of South Dakota is promoting “Be the One,” a public health campaign designed by our Department of Social Services and funded by Uncle Sam to help prevent suicide.
https://www.sciencealert.com/climate-change-heat-wave-abnormally-hot-temperatures-suicide-rate-increase
But, but, climate change is a hoax.
There’s no mystery. People observe that a majority of SoDak voters elected John Thune, Kristi Noem, and Marion Michael Rounds to positions in which they can influence life/death decisions for all of us. People observe this and think, WTF?
The only mystery is why the rate is so low.
mfi- i assume by your area residence u r in bed w billionaire Buffet’s Dakota Dunes and r a dangerous radical leftist. Ironic this thread follows the .01% of SD who undoubtedly control the SD legislature who strive to create SD as an inland port, a safe haven for world’s 1%, while the rest of the world spirals
down in depression.
Suicide, complex like many human conditions, is a big fat Red beacon blinking danger, danger. That we lose 22 veterans a day, that it is nearly the highest cause of youth death, that it is even more severe in Indian Country, but policy makers IGNORE it chasing the magic dollar. Health Care is the solution. Harry Reid knew the family devastation of suicide. Spend tax dollars on that, not tax cuts.
Living Wage! Social Safety Nets! Scientifically study and solve benefits/dangers of alcohol/drugs! Sending our children off to war protecting 1% assets but ignoring their hidden injuries. Traumatized minority cultures.
Get Health Care matters OUT of criminal justice! Get insurance out of Health Care.
Warren Buffet was born lucky. 87 years old. No military service. Congressman’s sole child. Highly educated. Survives cancer with excellent health care, gives away much of his wealth but disowns his adopted GD who speaks out against the 1%.
Kristie was born lucky. Barely educated. No military service. Lies about her wealth. She wants to be GOVERNOR after doing nothing with the congressional gift Republicans handed her. A shill. Wants NOTHING to do with providing the public with health care.
Vote Sutton Seilor and every other blue candidate. Hope SD counts your vote.
Class wealth robs tax payers. Pay for climate change ACTION.
Love yer spine mfi
No one takes drugs (and alcohol) just to take drugs (and drink alcohol). Silence of the mind and emotions is why people take drugs (and drink). Resolve that and then drugs (and alcohol) will be taken for fun, only.
When you live in a god forsaken state where its one party oligarchy doesn’t give a damn about expanding healthcare services to the working poor and where there is rampant corruption everywhere, low wages, unaffordable housing, anti-LGBT discrimination, horrific Native American discrimination, anti-Muslim and anti-immigration – who is really surprised in this era of Trump bullying?
My advice to anyone living in South Dakota – get the Hell Out! There are green pastures elsewhere where you will be greeted warmly no matter what sexual orientation or religious affiliation, where you won’t be judged by the color of you skin.
It’s not income, politics, or even drugs. Look at Anthony Bourdain. It appears to be more cultural than anything else. We truthfully isolate the people around us as if that is acceptable or even bully others because of their beliefs, morals and values. When you remove one’s value to a community they feel isolated, alone, of no value and more of a burden to everyone around them. I wish we knew the reason and had a way of stopping it. I have heard “they always happen in 3’s”. Meaning; when one person does it and we make such a sad thing out of it others with the same feelings follow the same course trying to receive the same attention. I know it may sound callous but maybe if the incident wasn’t spoken of or was even shamed they would decrease. I wish there was a fix.
Old Sarg doesn’t know much about suicide. Suicide can most certainly be caused by income or lack of it. Uh, the recession anyone? Suicides spiked when millions lost their jobs. Political climate of greed and corruption can most certainly a cause, especially in this climate of bullying and anti-immigration. A migrant father committed suicide when their babies were taken away from him at the border.
I do agree with you about people’s bullying of others because of their beliefs and values, OS, and you can thank your precious leader Trump for making it much worse in today’s climate.
Most Republicans never delve too much into the causes of suicides if it hasn’t happened in their family. It’s not their nature, they are far too worried about the Stock Market.
Suicide happens for a number of reasons. Can we just not on the attempts to politicize this too (not directed at you, Cory, more the comments section)
This is perhaps out of place, but a quirky coincidence just dawned on me.
Democrats often give republicans a hard time for only being “pro life” (code for anti-abortion) until the baby is born, and then the republicans are accused of not caring about that life any more. I have never heard a republican flip the argument around, and I’m not a republican so this doesn’t count, but here it is anyway:
If somebody is “pro choice” (code for support of no-questions-asked fetus destruction) when it comes to a pregnant person’s right to decide what they do with their own body and any bodies within their bodies, can they even consider suicide to be a problem without being hypocrites? If suicide is “a problem” and one blames that problem on negative factors such as mental illness, drugs, religious environment, political system, social pressure, or anything else, can democrats admit that those same factors may be the “reason” for a person wanting an abortion? Will democrats even admit it is worth asking why a person has an abortion, or is merely asking a violation of a person’s autonomy?
(short version for short attention spans…you know who you are: why do some people defend the right to kill unborn babies and then cry when a person kills himself?)
Hmmm.
There are a couple politicians (R.)in RC that r survivors likely understanding bourdin’s medical depression as the most prolific illness in the world.
Shame, now there’s a Republican idea.
No one is defending the right to kill babies, Ryan, and you know that. A pregnant woman and her unborn baby should be nobody’s business but the woman, the father, and the doctor.
Taking away the babies at the border is wrong but these hypocrite “pro-life” pubs SUPPORT IT!
Republicans don’t give a rat’s ass about black men being shot up by police, transgender children being bullied to suicide, a woman working three jobs to make ends meet. The SD Republican Govt tells us every year it does NOT CARE ABOUT you. SD has showed the nation it doesn’t care by repealing the voter-approved anti-corruption law. They are trying to scare you with Muslims being terrorists. They are racist hypocrites.
What’s really embarrassing is when Minnesotans ask me about the anticorruption law the Oligarchy in Pierre repealed. MPR had a news segment on it.
I just tell them I’m glad I got the hell out of SD and that I worry about the minorities and transgenders there because of the rampant discrimination.
Jenny, you missed the entire point of my comment. I’m not sure you even read it. Most pro-choice folks I know don’t think abortion is the father’s business, and about zero percent think it is a doctor’s business. Any pro-choice folks on this thread, feel free to speak up and offer your thoughts.
Do those people who think “abortion is nobody’s business except the pregnant woman’s” think that suicide should be anybody’s business other than the self-killer’s? If so, I’m curious as to what the difference is.
Really, though, my comment wasn’t about abortion or suicide, it was about freedom and autonomy. How can people advocate freedom for folks to have abortions, but then consider suicide to be a problem?
It’s called mental illness, is that not a problem to you, Ryan, or do you think people choose to have depression or bipolar disorder? Trust me, no one choose to have mental illness.
You know you would really make a good philosophy professor, Ryan.
Ryan, you gonna make a law that says suicide is illegal? Maybe give them the death penalty for killing themselves?
A woman’s right to choose autonomy over HER body is protected by the CONSTITUTION. There need not be any outside queries involved. End of discussion.
Absolutely false, Ryan. There are people on here that believe that the father should be involved in the decision a woman makes when it comes to deciding what the pregnant woman should do. We would love for the man to step up and be a man and to marry the woman he got pregnant or help support the child if they choose to bring him/her into the world.
I have an idea for those (he knows who he is) who continually drags readers the long way around the barn to say nothing much, stick to the subject and try not to hijack the thread.
I think Ryan is right. People who are willing to kill babies shouldn’t say crap about suicides. If they have somehow rationalized that butchering babies while still in the mother is ok yet suicide is some horrible thing then they are full blown nuts anyway and would be no help in resolving the issue of suicide.
Suicide was a crime in SD until the late 1960’s. Any one who committed suicide was classified as a felon. Prosecution, however, would have been tough since the death of an accused criminal prior to trial results in an acquittal.
Currently, SD makes assisting or encouraging suicide a crime.
see: SDCL 22-16-37. Aiding and abetting suicide–Felony. Any person who intentionally in any manner advises, encourages, abets, or assists another person in taking or in attempting to take his or her own life is guilty of a Class 6 felony.
Mike, do you think a person should be able to decide to kill himself, announce his intentions publicly, and then do it, without outside queries? After all, it’s HIS body.
Jenny, if a father and pregnant mother disagree about whether to continue a pregnancy or abort the fetus, who has final say? You are advocating for good fathers once a woman decides that her child may live, not for abortion decisions actually being made by fathers. Next, I do think mental illness is a serious problem. I don’t think all people who commit suicide are mentally ill. I also dont think all people who obtain abortions are mentally sound. I am merely raising the issue of a person’s right to die versus their right to end another’s life, and how people sometimes have opinions about individual rights that contradict their other opinions about individual rights.
I’m not hijacking the thread. The blog was about increasing suicide rates. Most of the comments are discussing how sad suicide is and how or why we should reduce the current trend. I’m asking why suicide is socially taboo when abortion is a CONSTITUTIONAL right. It’s relevant, mike.
The blog was about the increasing suicide rates. not a blog about how to increase suicide rates.
As for your off-topic question, your Drumpf IQ is manisfesting itself.
Just exactly what did Oldspogg contribute to this thread?
Because the United States Supreme Court said it was a constitutional right. Now please, can we stop using people who commit suicide as toys to make points with on the abortion topic? Please?
The fact of the matter is no one knows why someone would take their own life unless they left a suicide note or told someone.
This is what we do know, depression and bipolar illness are the catalyst for suicide, the reasons for someone taking are as varied the number of people that commit this sad act.
The only connection I can see between suicide and abortion is if the mother commits suicide because of an abortion.
Like the mystery of death, suicide is also a mystery.
Government “education” has now indoctrinated two full generations of Americans into believing the Bible isn’t true, the earth is billions of years old, and human beings are conglomerations of molecules that came together by chance somewhere in the vast recesses of deep time.
The teachings of Jesus Christ clarify the meaning, purpose and value of human life. As non-Christians become increasingly hostile to those teachings, children (including Christian children) tend to suffer from a weakened awareness of the meaning, purpose and value in their own lives.
Drug abuse and suicide are symptoms of the deeper problem.
https://biblicalscienceinstitute.com/origins/creation-101-radiometric-dating-and-the-age-of-the-earth/
Ryan asks good philosophical questions most of the time. I really think you have the calling to study philosophy Ryan and that you would make quite the Ethics professor.
Ryan, are you advocating for minors to get permission from a judge if they want to commit suicide and bypass getting their parents’ permission? Are you advocating for a counseling requirement and a 24 hour waiting period before someone can commit suicide? Or are you advocating for women to be charged with murder for having an abortion? I can’t tell.
This isn’t a religious blog, Kurt.
I’d written:
Jenny writes:
Case in point.
Jenny is going to Hell I think but I’m not the judge so maybe she’ll stick around to help kill babies and stop suicides after all if you do it on your own it’s wrong but if someone else decides to kill a defenseless baby it’s ok.
I’m a recovering Catholic so you will have to excuse my indifference, Kurt. It was those nasty Priests.
No problem, Jenny. I’ve had my share of bad experiences with organized religion too.
Mike, I have no idea what my IQ is and I’m not sure I even think IQs mean anything. And I have no idea what you mean when you say “a Drumpf IQ.”
Jenny, I did study philosophy and ethics in college and grad school. I have no interest in teaching either. Or anything.
Dicta, nobody is using self-killers as toys or looking for points on the abortion topic. I don’t need points or really care all that much about the abortion issue in the first place, as I mentioned already, I merely raised the topic as an analogy for suicide due to the shared underlying premise of individual liberty.
Ror, none of the above. I think people ending their lives is often sad, but not any more sad than how many people live their lives in the first place. I am just talking about individual liberty and seeing if people’s opinions are consistent. For the record, I support pregnant women having the right to end their pregnancies. I personally think it is done far more often than what it would be in an ideal world, but ultimately the right to abort should exist.
Kurt, I disagree with a lot of what you say, but I think you are a strong person for the confidence and consistency in your opinions.
“Government “education” has now indoctrinated two full generations of Americans into believing the Bible isn’t true, the earth is billions of years old, and human beings are conglomerations of molecules that came together by chance somewhere in the vast recesses of deep time.”
You mean taught people to expect evidence for claims and rely on peer review for rooting out faulty methodology? THE HORROR.
Jesus Christ committed assisted suicide then, so why can’t the rest of us have that for our own?
I’d written:
“Dicta” writes:
Whether peer review roots out faulty methodology depends on the peers. Modern science was born amid the rapid spread of traditional evangelical Christianity in the 1500s and 1600s, and it has deep roots in the conviction that beauty and order can be discovered in the universe because our loving Creator has put them here. The founders of modern science from the 1500s to the early 1800s generally accepted the concept of a relatively young earth.
Those who rejected the Bible and insisted on millions (then billions) of years of earth history didn’t get a firm foothold on most scientific institutions until the mid 1800s. Since then, unfortunately, those with an anti-Christian axe to grind have been attracted to certain fields of scientific endeavor in greater and greater numbers. Thousands of scientists today still accept the Bible, and all sound science is compatible with Christianity, but not all claims made by scientists are based on sound science.
Ryan writes:
Thanks, Ryan. I appreciate your logic and intellect.
So why am I going to hell, OS? Because I don’t believe in your God game? That’s what Christian republicans love to do, is shame someone if they don’t believe in their god obsession.
You make an excellent point, jerry. We were all indoctrinated into saying Jesus died for our sins, but what it really was, was assisted suicide – community assisted suicide!!!! Jesus was on a suicide mission!!!
Catholic hierarchy especially love to shame its followers when you get behind that creepy black curtain with those priests. Ewww, I still get nightmares from it. I made sure I was able to get out fast if they ever touched me.
And they shame women for having abortions. How dare these pseudo-prolifers!!
Where are they when children are being shot up in our schools, where were they when babies were taken away from their families at our borders? Where were they when we were dropping bombs on thousands of innocents in Iraq. Such pitiful hypocrites.
I know their secrets though. When working in the medical profession in SD, I noticed how many republican women had elective abortion histories. I was quite surprised at first, but not anymore. Just more SD hypocrites.
Suicide
Suicide is also a sin in the Catholic Church, am I correct? It’s been so long since I stepped foot in that church.
Ryan,
The idea that someone cannot logically be pro-choice and anti-suicide is silly. The “problem” people have with suicide is not necessarily the act itself, (which is why most on the left are for compassionate death laws like the one that didnt make the ballot this year), but instead, the societal problems that lead to such an act. Things like lack of healthcare, racism, poverty, as well as many others, come together is unique forms and combinations for every person that ends up on the proverbial ledge. Those on the left believe society has failed that person to have let them get there, while they have every right to end their life, an ideal world is one where no one wants to make that choice.
The same is true for abortion. I cannot think of a pro choice person that roots for abortions. what they root for is the right to have an abortion WHEN SOCIETY HAS FAILED THE WOMAN. Whether it be because of financial reasons, or health and healthcare, or the failure of the criminal justice system that has led to a rape, when a woman feels she has no other choice than an abortion, something has gone wrong.
We can and should try to solve the systemic problems that result in things like suicudes and abortions instead of outlawing the resulting actions.
https://www.salon.com/2018/07/24/global-warming-linked-to-higher-suicide-rates-across-north-america_partner/
injured employees and their deeply impacted families fighting uphill worker comp carriers, employers and state agencies, having given their all to the job only to be dumped by employers, are part of the equation for depression, as I forgot but TP thoughtfully mentions.
Politics is just everywhere man! Vote blue at EVERY chance. We might lose this whole thing.
The catholic chuch finally came to jesus on this issue in the last few/several decades. Shame, though is ever present. Stigma!! And, “Lock her up”, republicans still like to ignorantly or hatefully chant. Sucks when your sole news source (Rupert Murdoch) delights in lying to you 24/7/365 for the last 20 or more years.
Thought police – well said. I didn’t bring this up to prove myself right or prove anybody else wrong because I don’t really have any solid opinions about either suicide or abortion. I am fortunate that neither have really been a part of my life. If my wife was pregnant and had an elective abortion, I would be devastated. If somebody I cared for committed suicide, I would also be devastated.
This is where I catch catch flak from people on this blog: I want things to be legal that I do not want to exist. I support abortion being legal, but I don’t think it should be performed (at least not “elective” abortions ). I support individual rights to do whatever you want with your time, money, and body, so long as you don’t harm others. I think that includes the right to commit suicide.
You can say that people only commit suicide or have an abortion when society fails them, but life is not fair. Society doesn’t owe anybody anything. Who are we to say that somebody should live if they don’t want to live? Who are we to tell a person who wants to die that they just need to be “fixed” and they will change their minds? People will talk about the societal costs of suicide, but there are societal costs to everything we do. People will say suicide harms others, but again, everything we do has the potential to harm others in the indirect way that suicide does. I was trying to get people to think about individual rights.
leslie, most excellent article. One other thing we know as well is that higher temps and war walk hand in hand. In Greece, the fires are burning so fast that people cannot out run them.
When it is hot and muggy here in South Dakota, it is weather to die for. Until the state gets involved with more mental health help, we are gonna continue to see this breakdown of society.
Mike’s link at the top is important. Hot weather is associated with increased suicide; thus, climate change may lead to more death.
But as Leslie and Jenny suggest, a change in our social climate—less lying, less bullying, less selfishness, more trying to serve others—could save some lives.
In so many ways, electing Trump (and South Dakota Republicans?) seems to be the act of a democracy trying to kill itself.
(OldSarg said something almost correct. “I know it may sound callous but maybe if the incident wasn’t spoken of or was even shamed they would decrease.” He meant to speak of Donald Trump: “If the Donald wasn’t spoken of or was even shamed he would decrease.”)
I read somewhere about guarantees of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and how our government’s function was to promote the general welfare. Sounds like society owes somebody something.
Then wingnuts are trying their damndest to make me believe there is barely any money to promote the koch bros welfare and none for any slackers at the bottom.
I didn’t just fall off the turnip truck.
“Society doesn’t owe anybody anything”
This is where we disagree Ryan, and while your attempts to distance yourself from the reality and ramifications of your argument by calling it a hypothesis test as opposed to your true belief is quaint, it makes for poor argumentative responsibility and saps your ethos and is seen easily as an attempt to never be wrong when your arguments lose… as they have here…
I believe American society owes each and every citizen a whole host of things. Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, all the way through the bill of rights and on down through the last period in the 33rd amendment. The Constitution and our legal system’s interpretation of that Constitution would tend to side with me on this one
Thought police – I didn’t make any argument for anything, I’m asking what people think about individual rights, so whatever you think is quaint is all in your head.
Also the bill of rights and constitution almost exclusively deal with what the government owes the public, not what society owes any individual. Nice try being brainy.
Cory, you are off target. If you do not get back on target you will be banished to the world of “review” prior to posting. It’s the RULE.
Trump declares failure on his tariff nonsense – announces $12 billion welfare farmer bailout.
Several ways this plays into the suicide rate.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/24/trump-plans-to-give-billions-in-aid-to-farmers-hurt-by-tariffs-report.html
Update above: the State of South Dakota is promoting “Be the One,” a public awareness campaign to prevent suicide. The campaign was “developed by the South Dakota Department of Social Services (DSS) under grant 1U79SM061749-01 from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA) U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).”
Ryan: you are FOS. We the people ARE the government. WE the people are also the society. They are inseparable. Or perhaps you think the government is instituted by some wicked witch of the west.
(Actually there is a wicked warlock of east trying to abscond with our government for his selfish financial interests.)
Suicide numbers and rates that concern us are those for children, youth, and young adults. That is where the tragedy lies.
Old folks, not having a ‘death with dignity’ option – are merely taking the timing of matters into their control. Those who’ve cared for elderly loved ones who rot to death, suffering all along the way should understand. How cruel is it we dope them with morphine to ease their suffering rather than lovingly offer an alternative. They are not going to “get well”, or “restore their physical or mental health”.
It’s been 18 years since my childhood friend killed himself. Twelve years of diabetes and being sick and tired of being sick and tired is what the note said. He didn’t say anything about politics or global warming. It must have slipped his mind.
John, I may very well be full of $hit, but I apparently know the constitution better than you. To quote the brilliant Bartholomew J. Simpson, what you don’t know would fill a warehouse.
Ryan, others have addressed your incorrect conflation of suicide and abortion. Suicide is not a medical procedure. It is often the irrational act of a person suffering from mental illness. (I’ll even entertain the argument that self-negation is inherently irrational and thus not a “choice” under normal circumstances that warrants respect.) We should work to stop it as surely as we work to stop drunk driving or drug overdoses, out of a sense of caring for our fellow citizens and a desire to preserve public health. The main point here is that if more South Dakotans are killing themselves, something must be going increasingly wrong in our neighbors’ lives. We should inquire into and repair those harmful conditions in hopes of preventing a continued increase in suicides and the damage those suicides do to friends, family, and the social fabric.
I’ve often asked abortion opponents if they would physically restrain a woman from entering a clinic to get an abortion. I pose the same question about the current topic: would you physically restrain a person who was about to commit suicide?
I know I would not stop the strange woman on the way to the clinic, and I have yet to meet anyone who seriously proposes to take the same personal action. I feel strongly it would be wrong for me to intervene in her exercise of her choice over her body in that situation. She is not ending her life; she is ending the burden of serving another organism for nine months.
I feel like it would be wrong not to try stopping the woman who raises a gun to her own head. I don’t know if in the moment I would have the courage to act on that moral sense (she’s got a gun, she may be crazy, she might turn that gun on me, and then I die, widow my wife and orphan my child for the sake of one malfunctioning stranger? is intervention worth that mortal risk? what calculus would my instinct or anyone else’s do in that instant?).
However, as usual, the main question on this blog is not how we feel personally, or how we square our consciences with our gods or philosophies. The question is what laws and policies we can justify making.
I cannot justify taking away the equal rights of an entire class of Americans in an effort to ban all suicides or all abortions. Bans on suicide and abortion stop neither. The state infringes on no one’s rights by offering suicide hotlines and mental health services. The state does infringe on women’s rights by forcing them to submit to the beratings of Leslee Unruh and other religious fanatics.
From a public policy perspective, if we accept the idea that it would be nice if fewer abortions happened, the allowable, constitutional, and effective public policy response is to offer comprehensive sexual education. It would also help to boot Donald Trump out of office, shame him, and beat back the misogyny that he embodies that makes men think they can grab women by the genitals and worse.
I do not presume to speak for all liberals or Democrats. I provide only one example of an individual (myself) who offers reasonably consistent public policy positions and who happens to be a liberal and a Democrat.
Thought Police: “We can and should try to solve the systemic problems that result in things like suicudes and abortions instead of outlawing the resulting actions.”
This is an excellent summary that I can heartily support. Suicide, except in some cases of the ill or elderly, is not a rational, reasoned decision. It is an action taken in despair and desperation. That makes it heartbreaking to me. The knowledge that there are real, solvable systemic problems that are very likely to diminish one’s despair and desperation makes it even worse.
Those who suicide in anguish because we, the citizens who hold the vote, do not act benevolently, means we share responsibility. In these times the responsibility for increased suicides belongs to those who don’t vote or vote GOP.
Treat the core problems, and the results go away—pretty sensible. Thinking about that general approach to social issues reminds us further why Ryan’s comparison is off base: the problems behind suicide are far from a neat overlap with the problems that lead some women to abort their pregnancies. One can imagine situations in which mental illness might lead to an abortion, but (a) abortion is far more often a rational choice and (b) doctors have the opportunity to intervene as they seek informed consent as they do with any other medical procedure.
Would anyone care to explore the overlap of misogyny as a root cause of abortion and suicide?
Suicide is also a self-destructive act. Abortion can be a perfectly rational act of a mother protecting her health and the well-being of the rest of her family.
Cory, you did a great job of describing the differences between abortion and suicide, and you make some really great social commentary. I suppose I only disagree with the suggestion that I conflated abortion and suicide – I merely analogized them in an attempt to discuss individual rights, which I repeatedly made clear.
I think where you and I don’t see eye-to-eye is in the nonchalant way that you describe abortion as little more than a “pros and cons” decision and I see it as a loss of life similar to a suicide, homicide, or any other preventable loss of life. And again, don’t misunderstand my position on abortion – I support it being legal and a readily available option – but not because I think it is a good thing, only because I support individual freedom.
I can’t find the bright line distinction between these two preventable causes of death that you and apparently most other people on here are seeing as the difference. You seem to be saying that if suicidal people get help from society, they will be more likely to change their mind and want to live and then suicide becomes less of a problem. They will either see the error in their judgment or they will be shamed into trying to cope or they will just submit to another’s will. Do you think the same would be true for abortions? I do.
So I think the analogy between the right to kill fetuses and the right to kill yourself is a fair analogy for discussion, that’s all. Could some people on both sides be talked out of it? Sure. Is it “society’s business” to prevent suicide any more than preventing abortion? I guess the answer really lies in whether one thinks abortions actually end a life or not. For the people who think it does end a life, doesn’t it make sense that they would want to prevent abortions similarly to how you want to prevent suicides?
I hear more support for “no-questions-asked” or “it’s nobody’s business but mine” regarding abortions than the romantic idea that you suggest where most pro-choice people deep-down want abortion rates to be reduced to nothing (or almost nothing). I think a lot of pro-choice people don’t think abortions are a societal problem, but a necessary aspect of modern life. If those people are rational, I think it’s also rational to think that suicide is not a societal problem, either.
While I think abortion is morally abhorrent, it is legal. And perhaps, just perhaps, if the people who participated in moral grandstanding outside of clinics holding signs actually played a more active role in supporting poor women and advocating for freaking birth control instead of Hobby Lobbying it, we wouldn’t have this issue. We shoot ourselves in the foot constantly. And maybe it’s because being sanctimonious turds is more important to many of us than actually solving the problem.
Next time you bump into a fetus, Ryan, ask it what it thinks about abortion and then let me know how that works out for you.
Can you say for a certainty that a still birth wasn’t because the fetus chose suicide?
Congrats jason the troll in raising a republican wedge issue and beating that horse for 66 posts. Irrelevant to suicide. You do not understand irrational nor devastation.
leslie, you don’t know me or anything about me so your oddly phrased guess that I don’t “understand irrational nor devastation” is an empty comment. It’s OK if you don’t like my comments; I think yours are a bit pretentious. My comments were all relevant in discussing the phenomenon of suicide.
It’s funny that jason has become the boogeyman to you people on here who can’t handle conflicting opinions. I am not jason and I don’t know who jason is. I think about 80% of what jason says is really dumb.
Your ignorance there is at least consistent though, with all of your general labeling of people. All republicans think the same and act the same and are terrible, right? And all democrats think the same and act the same and are great, right? And all people who say things you don’t like are jason, right? If you got off your pedestal you might notice some nuance down here in the real world.
It’s funny that jason has become the boogeyman to you people on here who can’t handle conflicting opinions. I am not jason and I don’t know who jason is. I think about 80% of what jason says is really dumb.
Your ignorance there is at least consistent though, with all of your general labeling of people. All republicans think the same and act the same and are terrible, right? And all democrats think the same and act the same and are great, right? And all people who say things you don’t like are jason, right? If you got off your pedestal you might notice some nuance down here in the real world.
My comments were all relevant in discussing the phenomenon of suicide
So is it you or Jason who is committing suicide, Mr Relevant?
mike what in the world are you talking about? tell your nurse your meds must have expired.
Yer last post proved your irrelevance. Did you completely space it out? I can draw you a pic with crayons if you post your mailing address.
I think the post you are referring to was my response to leslie calling me jason. I was responding with the fact that I am indeed not jason.
I am not surprised you draw with crayons mike, now get back to the kids table and we will let you know when it’s time for bed.
Ryan,
90% of my posts state facts. You may think they are dumb, but they are still irrefutable facts.
Dicta, you are 100% correct. We need to quit teaching abstinence only education while reducing funding for women’s health services. We need to increase women’s health funding, make birth control affordable and accessible, while educating our youth with comprehensive sex education. That is how you reduce abortions. Banning abortions will do nothing to stop it and it will only make criminals of those who then choose to have one while increasing the death rates of those mothers. I hate abortion, but we need to reduce it with proven methods and not feel good legislation.
OT we need to put the same non-burdens on gun purchases/purchasers as we do on women seeking to exercise their constitutional rights.
It is clearly discriminating against certain classes of women as the wealthiest have no burdens. They can jet anywhere for certain procedures without ultrasounds, waiting periods, being forced to listen to false propaganda being physically and verbally assaulted outside clinics, while wingnuts conspire to introduce more punitive burdens.
Ammosexuals, yer next.
Look up, Ryan. Life is passing you by.
mike, my life rocks, man. Time passes for each of us, but you don’t need to project your regret about life onto me. I’m living my life, brother.
Jason, I am aware that your comments usually deal with facts. I specifically did not call you dumb because you appear to be quite intelligent. I called many of your comments dumb because of your presentation style, not your content. Facts are easy to manipulate, and manipulated facts are less persuasive than you seem to think. I am actually a big fan, though, because you get some of the crybaby commenters worked up by disagreeing with them.
I remember not long ago that I would read this blog and comment and actually agree with a lot of the ideas expressed, but this last year or so has felt like little more than close-minded commenters sniveling about not running the world and feeling sorry for themselves for not being as fortunate as somebody else.
Cory writes:
As I indicated here in October, I’d try to talk the mother out of having her child aborted but generally wouldn’t physically restrain her. If civil law permitted a mother to have her two-year-old killed, I generally wouldn’t physically restrain her either. (That doesn’t mean I believe having a two-year-old killed should be legal.) Ironically, I oppose the criminalization of suicide, but I generally would try to restrain someone who was about to kill himself or herself.
The difference results mainly from the likely consequences of my actions under current law. In the last scenario I might be able to delay or even prevent the suicide. In the first scenario I’d likely go to jail and be targeted for destruction by a nationwide left-wing mob, and the mother would likely end up having her child aborted anyway. There are definitely situations in which I’d willfully violate civil law, go to jail, and endure personal abuse. It just doesn’t seem like doing so under these circumstances would be productive.
Kurt says- n the first scenario I’d likely go to jail and be targeted for destruction by a nationwide left-wing mob, and the mother would likely end up having her child aborted anyway.
Kurt, have you ever heard of left wing mobs killing anti-abortion protesters? Seriously?
Targeting to kill comes from the right in the form of outright murder or bombings.
“mike from iowa” asks:
No, but I know from experience that there are ways to be destroyed without being killed.