Guest Column: Geelsdottir on Sexual Harassment and Assault
By Cory Allen Heidelberger on 2017-11-30
From the far eastern magiclands, Deb Geelsdottir, Lutheran pastor, feminist, and former frequent gracer of this blog’s comment section, offers this commentary on sexual harassment and assault and what we men need to do about it:
Deb Geelsdottir, Hat and Artist, 2017.
Sexual Harassment and Assault
Women have always done all we can to protect ourselves. We live our lives with that in mind. Keeping ourselves safe from predatory males determines where and how we walk, what careers we pursue, where we live, park our cars, what cars we buy or other transportation we use, where we sit, what expression we keep on our faces, how loud we speak or laugh. In short, every aspect of our lives is colored by the need for safety.
We do not live with the same freedom men do. We never have. It is impossible to separate predatory males from safe males by virtue of appearance, casual acquaintance or even several dates. Predatory males are very good at hunting and stalking their prey, women and girls, using excellent camouflage. We must maintain a certain level of guardedness permanently.
I don’t think most women are explicitly taught all of this. It’s almost in our DNA. Maybe it really is in our DNA because science is learning that historical trauma can change a group’s DNA. The entirety of female history is writ large with the trauma of male harassment and assault.
We have organized and fund-raised and educated and lobbied and consciousness raised and I don’t think we can do much more. There will always be women who deny the reality of male predation. How could there not be strong examples of the Stockholm Syndrome, such as the Eagle Forum and other right wing women’s groups, after so many millennia? Women are doing all they can, but women alone cannot bring about the necessary cultural change.
It’s a problem which belongs to American males as the aggressors and as the privileged group. Males who do not harass or assault still have a critical role to play. Because white males have the greatest privilege in America, they have the greatest power. There are immediate actions to take.
American men need to be the first ones to call out perpetrators, to believe accusers, to write and pass laws that enact strong penalties, to stop abusive behavior, physically if necessary, as soon as they are aware. When a story of harassment or assault appears in the media, the first condemnatory comments in social media and elsewhere need to come from men. Men need to follow through and stick with it until a fitting correction happens to the perpetrator.
Men need to insist on laws that are clear that harassment and assault be treated like any other crime in terms of publicity, penalties and personal repercussions. Nothing should be hidden or covered up. A common thief is not protected from public scorn. Neither should a sexual crime perpetrator be protected, regardless of his position.
Men need to teach their sons how valuable women and girls are. Men do this effectively by ACTIONS in their day to day lives. Who receives the lion’s share of the credit for the home, for decisions made, for any number of all the small things that, put together, make a family’s life? The whole of these teaching opportunities is something men need to work out.
Males, what do think of when you hear, “Be a man . . . “? I think of something that shows power over, dominance, suppression of emotion. Perhaps I am in a minority, but I don’t think so. Those very qualities – power over, dominance and suppression of emotion – are a very large part of the problem in male culture. As long as males promote that as the singular, highly flawed image of masculinity, they will continue to perpetrate demeaning and frightening acts on the rest of the human race.
Males, it’s your issue, your problem. The rest of humanity needs you to fix it.
—Deb Geelsdottir, special to Dakota Free Press, 2017.11.28
That took guts, Debbo. I am proud of you and what you have done for yerself.
mike from iowa
2017-11-30 17:35
Ms Deb’s attention to details is remarkable, both in her artistry and her written work. Takes guts of a remarkable kind.
grudznick
2017-11-30 18:55
I have missed my old friend, Ms Geelsdottir, and always enjoyed typing her name. I, too, would like to say she has guts, both because she does and also because I’d like to have a third blogging in a row with the word guts in it.
Jenny
2017-12-01 07:40
I miss Deb a lot on here and wish she would come back. We need her more than ever. Please come back Deb!
As always, her message is written beautifully.
Ryan
2017-12-01 09:10
Another unofficial spokesperson for women everywhere, commissioned by the unofficial spokesperson for men everywhere. You folks keep forgetting to call my wife and me when these votes are taken.
Doesn’t the definition of “feminist” suggest that the person supports equality? I guess some people are more equal than others. If I hadn’t already spent so much time standing up for actual equality in my comments on the last post on this same topic, I would put my own thoughts in writing here. However, this time I’ll leave it to a total stranger:
Welcome back Deb! I hope you stick around and share more of your knowledge and insights.
mike from iowa
2017-12-01 11:32
Ryan, let me be the first to suggest you don’t know scat about Deb or her background.
Ryan
2017-12-01 11:59
I absolutely know nothing about Deb or her background other than what is posted here. I am responding to the preface for the article and the content of the article only.
Roger Cornelius
2017-12-01 12:59
It is refreshing having Deb posting here again and we should welcome her back with open arms.
I wasn’t aware that Deb or anybody else posting here has to be an official “spokesperson” to express their opinions.
As always, Deb has the courage to make her experience speak for itself.
In multiple threads posted her regarding the sexual assault of women the two words I haven’t seen are respect and integrity.
We shouldn’t have to parse every word to know the difference between right and wrong.
Welcome back, Deb, and I look forward to hearing more from you.
Ryan
2017-12-01 14:29
Somebody expressing his or her opinions is great – civil discourse is what separates us from the animals. Somebody who expresses what he or she suggests is the opinions of a whole population of people is considered, by definition, a spokesperson.
Deb being a woman doesn’t mean she knows what all women have done, are doing, or should do. And she obviously doesn’t know what it’s like to be a man any more than I know what it’s like to be a 1979 Pontiac Firebird.
This message would have been more powerful and persuasive if it wasn’t so obviously riddled with secret motive. I think articles like these are actually more likely to drive good men away from actively participating in this “cause” because the call to action is, on it’s face, an attack on those good men. Call me crazy, but that’s not the way I would approach an issue if my goal was universal appeal.
Roger Cornelius
2017-12-01 15:12
To be clear, I re-read Deb’s opinion again.
Ryan claims to have commented on the content of her presentation, but I haven’t seen those comments. Instead he is attacking Deb as being a “spokesperson” with “secret motives”. There isn’t a woman on this planet that can speak to every woman’s opinion on sexual assault, Deb is no exception and she knows it.
Deb’s comments are based on her vast experience in working with women and minority groups as well as her ministry.
Aside from Deb’s previous postings on DFP, I know her and consider her a friend and respect her integrity and her word.
Roger Cornelius
2017-12-01 15:13
The next time Cory names a “spokesperson” he should contact all of us so we can cast our vote.
mike from iowa
2017-12-01 16:17
If only Drumpf can save America from Obama’s reign of terror, then Deb G can surely speak for all women. But, Deb does not speak for all women. As Roger poignantly states, Deb has ample experience through helping others in social work and her ministry. Deb also has her own life experiences to draw upon.
People and comments like Ryan’s are part and parcel of what drove Deb away in the first place. Deb is a pretty darn good artist and special human being. Shame, Ryan.
Ryan
2017-12-01 16:27
I said nothing to attack Deb. I admitted I know nothing about her. Never heard her name. She is likely all of the things you people are saying – a great artist, full of integrity, highly experienced helping people. I have no idea and never said one thing about her as a person. This blog and it’s comments are full of people who disagree with each other on any number of topics, some respectfully and others not so much. I was in no way disrespectful so everyone defending Deb as a person and attempting to make me feel shameful about disagreeing with her are missing the point. Especially the ones who call people names on here all the time, shamelessly. If I’m not welcome posting here, Cory has the power to remove me and my opinions at his whim.
Roger Cornelius
2017-12-01 16:39
Aside from your comments about Deb not being an official “spokesperson” on women’s sexual assault, Ryan, what precisely do you disagree with in Deb’s opinions?
Ryan
2017-12-01 16:57
Other than disagreeing with the one person speaking for everyone, like you said, I disagree in general with the entire premise of the article that men have to try harder than women to solve this problem. Call me a radical feminist, but I want equality!
Specifically, I disagree with the following comments:
“I don’t think we can do much more.”
“Women are doing all they can”
“Who receives the lion’s share of the credit for the home, for decisions made, for any number of all the small things that, put together, make a family’s life?”
“The whole of these teaching opportunities is something men need to work out.”
“…males promote that as the singular, highly flawed image of masculinity…”
“Males, what do think of when you hear, “Be a man . . . “? I think of something that shows power over, dominance, suppression of emotion. Perhaps I am in a minority, but I don’t think so.”
“…your problem.”
mike from iowa
2017-12-01 17:20
Every woman who has ever been sexually assaulted is a spokesperson on that subject. Men, being bigger and stronger and more testosterone fueled need to try harder to control their urges as they have the power(physically and job wise)over virtually every female on the planet.
Wingnuts in general need to lighten up on trying to control every aspect of a woman’s life, especially as it pertains to motherhood and pregnancy.
I don’t see anyone on here, including Cory trying to get you banned or even suggesting you stop voicing your opinions.
Ryan
2017-12-01 17:40
“People and comments like Ryan’s are part and parcel of what drove Deb away in the first place…Shame, Ryan” is what I was responding to.
And no, again, I don’t think men who are good to people owe society more because their bones and muscles are bigger.
Ryan
2017-12-01 17:44
And for what it’s worth (nothing) I’ve been a victim of physical assault at least 6 times, 3 of which were sexual assaults under today’s definition, perpetrated by both men and women, and I would never consider myself a spokesman for anybody else.
Debbo
2017-12-01 21:11
Hi folks. It’s great to hear from you and talk to you again. You are a great bunch and SDFP is a first rate blog. Thanks for publishing my piece Cory. I appreciate it.
Ryan, my understanding is that you disagree that male aggression is a problem for males to solve. That’s interesting. Why should someone else solve it for males?
Debbo
2017-12-01 21:26
I’d love to see males be the first to step up to the mark when another perpetrator is outed.
For instance, here in Minnesota we’ve had 2 legislators resign as of 1/1/2018 for sexual harassment, 1 Democrat and 1 Republican. The Republican, Tony Cornish, has been in the lege for a long time. The GOP leadership has been warning young women, pages, interns, etc., to stay away from him. That means that the current GOP leader, Kurt Daudt, and his predecessor, Kurt Zellers, knew about Cornish, but did nothing. They allowed him prey on those women for years! Why aren’t any of the good guys calling for Daudt’s and Zeller’s heads? Where were those “good guys” when Cornish was terrorizing young women?
Women knew and reported him to the leadership, Daudt and Zellers. Or to the media, who wouldn’t go to press with “unsubstantiated rumors.” But consider this: About 5 years ago the GOP speaker in the MN House was a married woman. (I cannot think of her name now.) She got caught in a car in some type of sexual act with a man not her husband. It was in the papers and she got booted from her position and forced to resign by her party.
(These types of things happen ALL the time.)
Women are not in a position to fix this for males. We can’t. We don’t have the power. You males can.
Ryan
2017-12-02 09:27
Well, this won’t be short. Sorry in advance.
First, I want to be clear that I don’t believe male aggression in itself is a problem that needs to be fixed by anybody. Aggression, by both males and females, is a biological process and is responsible for a lot of good things like the drive to succeed, competitiveness, and protective instincts. Without aggression, I don’t think our species would have made it out of the caves. Aggression and assault are not the same things.
With that clarified, I absolutely believe that sexual assault is a big problem with harmful consequences and needs to be eliminated immediately. The reasoning behind my disagreement is that I really do want this to stop and I am practical in what I think will actually reduce the number of assaults. I have an aversion generally to feel-goodery in a conversation about solving a real problem. So, with the goal of reducing, then eliminating, sexual assaults, not merely banning the idea of maleness in what I think is an overly-sensitive 2017 America, here is why I disagree with sexual assault being a problem for men specifically to fix:
First, average good-hearted men, at least a hundred million of them in this country, are a lot less powerful and influential than so many women and social justice men pretend we are. Articles like yours lump us in with horrible criminals over which we have no control or level of persuasion. The dirtbag type of guy who asks girls lewd questions in bars and drives home drunk putting everyone at risk is not the kind of guy who is talked into or out of anything by his morally conscious, non-dirtbag male “peers.” Average good men don’t and can’t control dirtbags with our average goodness any more than women. Guys that would risk prison to get sexual gratification aren’t guys who can be reasoned with by bloggers and accountants and bus drivers.
Second, I believe there are many women who have been through terrible things and came out the other side determined to make life better for others and prevent future assaults. However, the tone of your article suggests that all women are vigilant servants of this cause while average good men are sitting around watching assaults occur every day and doing nothing. I think neither is correct. There are many women who have never done a darn thing to help this issue just like there are plenty of unhelpful good men. But all good men do support eliminating these crimes already. Despite there still being progress to be made on social and informal aspects of gender equality, under the law men and women are equal. Men vote for women and women’s causes. Women are more free and equal in this country now than ever before and it’s because good, smart, moral people of both genders stood together to end the culture of discrimination fostered not by men generally, but by bad men with power specifically. So there are women and men who have fought hard for equality, and there are women and men who have done nothing. I believe asking only men to step it up is missing an important opportunity to say to women that if they don’t speak up or take action when something happens, it may frankly be impossible to help them. Then the perpetrator is unchecked and is free to carry on victmizing others. I understand that coming forward is a very difficult thing to do for many women and for many reasons, but that makes it no less important. Again, I’m a fan of practical action over feel-good talk because it creates results rather than soothing feelings. If the goal is only to make a victim feel better, fine, we can focus on that. However, as I said, the goal should be to actually reduce and then eliminate sexual assaults, and that will never be possible until every single assault is known by somebody who can help. That requires either the victim take action personally and stand up to the assailant, or to report it if that is not possible for any reason. This is asking a lot from victims, I’m keenly aware of that, but it is absolutely necessary to achieve our shared goal. Although I admit it is very different, asking average good men to stand up to their boss, or any other person who has some power over them, in order to protect a stranger who happens to be a woman, is not a consequence-free request. Men are being asked to risk their careers, reputations, financial security, and more as if we face no repercussions for calling out bad behavior. Anybody standing up to a dirtbag with power is risking something, and it’s hard for me to understand why it’s ok to ask anybody to risk something to protect a stranger that the stranger isn’t willing to risk for themselves. I think all people who know of sexual assaults or other violent crimes should speak up, act out, or both. All people. All people. All people. Equally. We are all in this together.
That leads me to my final point. I think articles like this dig the line between men and women deeper. It oozes with an attitude of men versus women. That doesn’t help. If I was putting a message out to the public in order to solve a problem, I would ask for unity in purpose, unity in action. I would ask all people who support the cause to shout at the top of our lungs what we think is right. I would encourage every able body and mind to stand together to fight for each other and for our self. I would never ever tell half of my supporters that we have done all we can so we need the other half to finish the battle for us. I would direct my words, my energy, my action, and my aggression at the criminals, the dirtbags, the predators. Aggression, after all, can be a powerful force for good.
That’s why I disagree with your article. We seem to want at least some of the same things, I just disagree with what path you seem to think gets us there.
Roger Cornelius
2017-12-02 13:09
From Cory’s DFP thread Former Legislator, Lobbyist Says Sexual Misconduct Common in Legislature, Ryan said the following:
“I have never been victimized in the way we are talking here, so I can’t imagine how difficult it is to come forward, but I don’t think the difficulty in doing so is reason to not encourage it”. 2017-10-20 at 8:50.
And from this thread Ryan stated at 17:44, “And for what it’s worth (nothing) I’ve been a victim of physical assault at least 6 times, 3 of which were sexual assaults under today’s definition, perpetuated by both men and women, and I would never consider myself a spokesman for anybody else”.
Of the 6 physical assaults 3 of which were sexual assaults, were any of these assaults, that did or didn’t happen, reported to the police or other authorities?
Ryan
2017-12-02 13:30
I stand by both comments. The instances discussed in that post were different than what I’ve experienced, and I didn’t want to project my feelings from my experiences onto people with different experiences. I don’t asdume all victims are alike, like some others might. Most or all people have probably been assaulted in one way or another, but I’m not defined by people who have done things to violate my rights or autonomy, and neither are my opinions on how to eradicate assault from our lives. My experiences were all long ago, the most recent on thanksgiving of 2008. Although oversimplified, they include: being offered $200 for homosexual sex by a total stranger in a bar, being hit in the face by a female with absolutely no reason or provocation, two separate “chump shots” by drunk men at bars, one female attempting to force herself on me after I refused her advances because she was married, one teacher throwing me against a wall and holding my face against the concrete gym wall while yelling at me for talking back, and there are others but my history isn’t the point of my disagreement with this article. The points of disagreement are spelled out at length above. It’s not about me, as I’ve said.
Ryan
2017-12-02 14:04
Of the things that did indeed happen, by the way, police were called by people other than myself on 2 occurrences, one lead to an arrest. I defended myself against one of the bar assaults and held that fella accountable myself. I felt no desire or need to report the females because I considered neither at the time to be an assault, I just thought they were dumb bi****s. I said these things were assault under today’s definition, not that I felt victimized.
Debbo
2017-12-02 14:04
Thanks for your comment Ryan. I think you’re reading a lot into my editorial that isn’t there. No where did I say “all men are bad” or “all women are good” or any of the other “all or nothing” kinds of statements you’ve apparently read into it.
I also have not said that women are suddenly going to sit back and do nothing. We will continue to live our lives as we always have, endeavoring to remain safe from predators and keep others safe.
But Ryan, all this is nibbling around the edges. The fact remains that males are by far the top predators among humans. The percentages are overwhelming. I know a number of wonderful men who find this very troubling and really dislike having to share their gender with those predatory types and have some of that stain on themselves. But that’s factual. That’s what we have to deal with.
Why shouldn’t other males, non-predatory males, be leading the effort to fix this problem within their gender? Why isn’t it their problem to address?
Ryan
2017-12-02 14:18
You’re just asking the same question again, Deb, and my answer hasn’t changed. People who don’t assault other people or condone assaulting other people should all do everything within their power to help the cause. The gender of a good person should not be a factor in his or her obligation to society.
Roger Cornelius
2017-12-02 14:28
Okay, I’m going to do something I hate, parse words.
Is there a difference between being a victim and being victimized. If you are a victim of sexual assault, doesn’t that make you a victim and weren’t you indeed victimized?
In the comments above you have claimed to be both a victim and victimized and than claim that you were neither, depending, of course, on your circumstances.
By virtue of the fact you have claimed to be assaulted and sexually assaulted, you have in part made this about you.
I find that your claims to be inconsistent and questionable.
Debbo
2017-12-02 14:37
Yes, of course I’m asking the same question. That’s the point of my piece.
From the beginning of human time women have been trying to fix the problem. We obviously cannot. So you and other males need to step up and solve Your Problem. It is Your Problem. Your gender are the actors.
I used to coach basketball, softball and track. If my my basketball team was playing poor defense, it was not the responsibility of the other team to weaken their offense. My team needed to make the change ourselves by practicing, learning, pressuring one another to step up, etc.
That is a metaphor, not intended to say that women and males are separate teams, but to show that you -males- are not doing enough to solve a problem beyond the other “team’s” means to address.
Ryan
2017-12-02 14:46
I don’t care if you believe me or not. You pick words apart to challenge me but in the previous article a woman was talking about workplace sexual harassment that she was obviously bothered by. I have never experienced that, so I said so. Does your believing my experiences affect the objective truth to my arguments?
Later, a comment was made that all victims of assault are spokespersons for it. I only brought up my experiences, all if which I mentioned are 100% true, in response to that, to say I wasn’t a spokesperson for anybody just because I had been assaulted. Yes there is a difference between being assaulted and feelinhg victimized. Everyone handles things differently so I may take an assault very different personally than a woman or another man, but it doesn’t change the definition of assault that I was referring to.
I voiced my thoughts on this issue in detail and repeatedly before ever discussing myself, and only did so to respond to a specific comment.
Debbo
2017-12-02 14:51
Hey Roger. 😊 I don’t think you were asking me, but here is my take anyway, just because I like to talk to you:
“Victim, victimized” are essentially the same. People who’ve worked with folks who’ve been assaulted in various ways seem to be fairly consistent in saying the goal is to move on to “survivorship.” That’s the condition of having mostly recovered to a normal life, decent sleep, work, relationships, etc.
Sexual assault is usually more traumatic than physical assault because it’s internal and involves a higher level of nudity and vulnerability than being punched, kicked and/or hit.
Roger Cornelius
2017-12-02 14:52
I didn’t say anything about “feeling victimized”, I said victimized.
Ryan
2017-12-02 14:59
OK Roger, pretend that means something and that you added anything at all to this conversation.
mike from iowa
2017-12-02 15:03
Where is bcb and Cory. I’d like this to be a family type reunion with Debbo as the special guest.
I haven’t felt the need to defend a lady that does not need me to defend her. She can eloquently defend herself based on her life experiences and chosen professions. Her only fault is she has thrown away any chance of absolution because she and I correspond and little godalmighties frown on me from afar.
Roger Cornelius
2017-12-02 15:17
Hi Deb, please feel free to comment on any post I put up, and the feeling is mutual, I enjoy talking to you to.
Words have meaning and can complicate a situation that doesn’t need to be complicated.
I have lived my life believing that less is more and it isn’t just constrained just to words, but to everyday life.
I accept the premise that far too many women are sexually assaulted and that as a man there is something I can do about it. The first thing is to treat women with respect and believing them when they say they were assaulted, and in doing so you learn to keep your hands and lewd comments to yourself. That is the contribution I make to the sexual assault epidemic.
There is probably more I can do and trust that you and other women can guide me in that effort.
Admittedly, I don’t know that I have contributed anything to this conversation since I was not elected a “spokesperson” and don’t profess to be a specialist in women’s sexual trauma.
Ryan
2017-12-02 16:16
Deb, you’re assigning teams based on genitals. I’m suggesting good people versus bad people. If that’s your stance, consider me happy to disagree.
grudznick
2017-12-02 16:57
Mr. Ryan, I believe that Ms. Geelsdottire subscribes to a belief that all people with the hangy downey parts are evil. Evil, like Satan, and they cannot help themselves.
Debbo
2017-12-02 21:13
Gentlemen, Grudz and Ryan, I believe you both missed this sentence of my comment, “That is a metaphor, not intended to say that women and males are separate teams.”
Debbo
2017-12-02 21:28
Roger, you asked about what you, as a male, can do. One of the things I’d urge any male to do is get out of the male bubble.
As the dominant humans, the world has been shaped to your pleasure. That extends from such mundane things as the number of toilets available for women v. males in a public venue or the temperature in a suite of offices, to the critical ratio of women to males that create, enforce or judge public policy. Given that, it is not surprising that males tend to think their world view and experiences are universal. They are not.
Go to a public space, one with the greatest diversity possible. Sit or stand quietly and watch women, girls and People of Color. Look hard for differences in how they move, sit, converse, stand, facial expressions, etc.
Read nonfiction by women and POC about their lives and Believe Them. Watch movies like “Iron Jawed Angels” and others about the lives of women and POC.
Males, immerse yourself in a culture other than your own. Believe what you see, those experiences are valid. Remember that no 2 POC or women have identical experiences so if you find disagreement, neither is invalidated; both are true. No particular culture is perfectly monolithic.
Debbo
2017-12-02 21:33
Males, how can you change your culture? I remember Wilt Chamberlain being hailed and applauded publicly because he claimed to have over 1000 different sexual partners. How do you change that to a stigma of shame?
Then there is the 13 yo boy who was seduced by his female teacher. It’s a criminal sexual act, so how do you support the boy and silence the adult males who are applauding him?
How do you change those harmful aspects of your culture?
Ryan
2017-12-03 08:50
Metaphor or not, nearly everything Deb has said appears to encourage sexism and objectification of people. Just because she’s a woman doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call out sexism when we see it. Double standards promote division in the populace, which is not what we need. I understand I lost the popularity contest on this thread, but I’m one of those nutcases who will support equality regardless of whether or not it’s popular.
mike from iowa
2017-12-03 10:34
So, Ryan, what yer saying about equality is more women should assault men until a balance is reached? Is that what you’re implying?
Just because no one agrees with you doesn’t make you a victim. This isn’t a popularity contest, which may be a big part of your problem.
Remember the old saying about digging and when to stop?
mike from iowa
2017-12-03 10:39
Debbo, you unexagerate the “Stilt’s” sexual prowess by around 20,000 women.
Compare that to NBA legend Wilt Chamberlain, who claimed to have slept with over 20,000 women, even though he only lived to be 63. That would mean Chamberlain had sex with 425 different women a year
When did he find time to play basket ball?
mike from iowa
2017-12-03 10:41
And to think Grudz claimed to be yer friend.
grudznick
2017-12-03 12:03
Mike, this isn’t Iowa. In South Dakota we can politely disagree with people and still be their friends.
mike from iowa
2017-12-03 13:29
Not even a nice try, Grudz. You didn’t politely disagree, you had someone hold Debbo while you stuck a hunnert knives in her back. You even forgot to say, excuse me. Polite you ain’t.
grudznick
2017-12-03 13:54
I, sir, have hangy-down bits so am viewed as evil, like Satan, by Ms. Geelsdottir. And I am eviler than some, but I can still be polite to the young ladies. Because I live in South Dakota.
mike from iowa
2017-12-03 17:20
McCTurtle has hangy down bits called jowls or turkey wattles or something, too. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Women were treated as chattel for centuries and only in the past 6 or 7 decades have they started getting equality with white men. That means women have centuries of catching up from abuses of dominant men and societies that permitted such abuses.
You could cut all women some slack. Be a man. Kick wingnuts out of government and give women of America and the world a feeling that gents are on their side.
Debbo
2017-12-03 20:38
“I, sir, have hangy-down bits so am viewed as evil, like Satan, by Ms. Geelsdottir.”
That’s your conclusion, not mine Grudz. But it is one of the oldest tropes used to dismiss women’s comments regarding equality, “She’s just a man-hater!”
How about addressing the issues I’ve raised?
grudznick
2017-12-03 20:48
As you know, Ms. Geelsdottir, I am pro-woman. And it is OK for you to hate on me and other men at times, because I know deep down you do not.
Debbo
2017-12-03 20:51
Ryan, if you are such an adamant supporter of equality, why not help women attain that? Instead you seem to be focused on making claims against me personally, at the cost of addressing the issue here.
For me, this is not a Deb v. Ryan issue or even a women v. males issue. There is an enormous problem and males are the overwhelming majority of perpetrators.
Women have created domestic violence shelters, lobbied legislative bodies, educated law enforcement, etc. We’ve been told that we are the problem- our clothing, expression, dress, diet, compliance, lack of compliance, career, hair style, tone of voice, silence, ad nauseam. Issues such as domestic violence, rape, assault, sexual harassment and others have been labeled “women’s issues” by the male dominated legislative bodies, and shunted to one side.
Given all that, it just seems silly to think that the problem is not males, and theirs* to solve.
*(Women will always be involved because it’s our bodies and souls being attacked.)
(I deeply appreciate Deb’s masterful and persistent modeling of ideal public discourse. She resists distraction, hair-splitting, and personal attacks and doggedly focuses on the main issues of public concern. She speaks with sincerity and genuine care for all involved.)
Ryan
2017-12-04 12:54
I made no claims against you personally, Deb. I responded specifically and respectfully to the comments you made. I said nothing about you as a person. You are attempting to hold all men accountable for the bad acts of some men and I am simply not buying it.
As for equality, I absolutely, 100% support equality. I believe I am the only person on this comment thread suggesting everyone should treat all human beings the same. You say that what you are asking for is equality, but it isn’t. I also absolutely, 100% support the reduction and elimination of violent crimes of all types, including sexual assaults. However, as I mentioned at length in my comments above, I believe my approach is more practical than yours and more likely to achieve that goal.
You ask, if I support equality, why not help women attain it? I think I do. I treat men and women no differently, except my wife and my child who both have me wrapped around their fingers. At work, at the grocery store, with friends, with family, and anywhere else I happen to interact with humans, I treat them all the same unless there is a legitimate reason not to (gender, race, disability, etc., are not legitimate reasons, FYI). I think there are a lot of people like me. People who actually do what is within their power. People who don’t own time machines so aren’t able to stand up for the rights of somebody’s ancestors fifty generations ago. People who don’t need to be accused of violent crimes and misogyny that occurred 20,000 years ago, or 2,000 years ago, or 2 years ago, by somebody else. However, if, rather than treating people equally and with respect regardless of gender, you meant why don’t I commit my life to the cause of women’s rights, it’s because I believe in and support many things that aren’t my life’s calling. I would also love to see poverty eliminated. I would like to see race relations improve. I would like to see people everywhere reach the level of education that they want to. I would like to see the presence of religion in our daily lives reduced. I would like to help humanity explore and settle planets and solar systems outside of our own. I want to write the great American novel. I want to be great at my profession. I have many goals and many interests, but not enough time, energy, or ability for all of them.
It appears to be your opinion that all men owe a debt to all women. It is my opinion that such an opinion of entitlement is one reason otherwise “good” men don’t participate as actively as you would like them to in this cause. Tell somebody over and over that they are to blame for something they didn’t do, and then ask them to stand beside you, or to stand up for you, and I’m guessing you won’t get the response you feel like you deserve.
Debbo
2017-12-04 14:49
Cory, thank you for your kind observations.
Ryan, try this. Read what you’ve written in your last comment and then reread mine to see if you can find where I’ve said the things you claim.
It looks to me like you have specific preconceived notions that you just can’t let go of and, perhaps subconsciously, read into everything I write.
I’m guessing the subject of white male privilege is also difficult for you. Or am I wrong about that? The particular thing I notice in each of your comments is simmering resentment. It’s getting in the way of your attempts at discourse.
Ryan
2017-12-04 15:50
“So you and other males need to step up and solve Your Problem. It is Your Problem. Your gender are the actors.”
“It’s a problem which belongs to American males as the aggressors and as the privileged group.”
“The whole of these teaching opportunities is something men need to work out.”
“Males, it’s your issue, your problem.”
“From the beginning of human time women have been trying to fix the problem. We obviously cannot. So you and other males need to step up and solve Your Problem.”
“…share their gender with those predatory types and have some of that stain on themselves.”
“…to show that you -males- are not doing enough to solve a problem…”
Those are some of the things you said that I was responding to.
“Remember that no 2 POC or women have identical experiences so if you find disagreement, neither is invalidated; both are true. No particular culture is perfectly monolithic”
However, you had just said immediately before that “As the dominant humans, the world has been shaped to your pleasure.” about males.
You also said these following things which I was responding to (sometimes in metaphors, which are perfectly fine for illustration, no?):
“Because white males have the greatest privilege in America, they have the greatest power.”
“American men need to…”
“Men need to…”
“Men need to…”
“Men need to…”
“…males promote that as the singular, highly flawed image of masculinity…”
“Males, it’s your issue, your problem.”
But, really, the best couple of lines are these:
“Remember that no 2 POC or women have identical experiences so if you find disagreement, neither is invalidated; both are true. No particular culture is perfectly monolithic”
However, you had just said immediately before that:
“As the dominant humans, the world has been shaped to your pleasure.” about males.
How wonderful it must be for these females and ethnic minorities to get to have their own, unique experiences and individuality. I wouldn’t know what that’s like, since I am just a white man, the same as every white man. Our experiences are all the same, right? We are all born rich and powerful and the world bends to our whims, right?
When you say, “…the subject of white male privilege is also difficult for you,” do you mean that being born a white male obligates me to do something that a person of a different gender or race is obligated to do? If that’s what you mean, then yes, I have a problem with that.
You correctly identified the simmering resentment in my comments. Too bad you didn’t also notice the numerous contradictions in your positions that I questioned.
mike from iowa
2017-12-04 16:23
Temper, temper, Ryan. Go kick a female puppy of color and relax. Assert yer dominance because you be a mighty white male with power over all or something.
Ryan
2017-12-04 16:27
Careful mike from iowa, if you are a white male, my simmering resentment is really your problem to fix.
Ryan, tell us what specific action Deb has asked you (and me!) to undertake that you find too burdensome, morally offensive, or otherwise unreasonable to do.
Roger Cornelius
2017-12-04 17:15
Ryan,
Throughout this thread and related thread on the subject sexual assault on women you have written about equality.
Can you tell us exactly how equality is a component of sexual assaults and how it would reduce these assaults.
Ryan
2017-12-04 18:01
In response to Cory and Roger both –
My comments have not been about me saying I’m unwilling to be a good person or to call out bad people or defend innocent people from bad people. I agree I should do all of those things.
Every one of my comments has been about equality in suggesting everyone should be doing all of those things, and that a person’s gender does not obligate them to do or not do anything different from a person of a different gender.
grudznick
2017-12-04 18:23
Any more than a person who lives in Rapid City has the responsibility to do something about the mean things other people in Rapid City do. Or people who are fat have a responsibility to deal with or change the behaviors of other people who are fat. I think I understand you, Mr. Ryan, and I am on the board with your feelings in this matter.
Nobody is saying it is ok to harass women. It is bad. It is very, very bad. But fat people and people in Rapid City and people with brown eyes all have responsibilities to deal with it and not dump it on a collective scape goat.
Ryan
2017-12-04 18:24
mike from Iowa –
I walked right into that one. Well played.
Debbo
2017-12-04 20:33
I’ll try to be more specific Ryan. Here are a couple examples where you go off the rails:
“People who don’t own time machines so aren’t able to stand up for the rights of somebody’s ancestors fifty generations ago. People who don’t need to be accused of violent crimes and misogyny that occurred 20,000 years ago, or 2,000 years ago, or 2 years ago, by somebody else. However, if, rather than treating people equally and with respect regardless of gender, you meant why don’t I commit my life to the cause of women’s rights, it’s because I believe in and support many things that aren’t my life’s calling.”
Of course I have not said anything like that.
And this:
“Tell somebody over and over that they are to blame for something they didn’t do.”
I have not “blamed” you. I have repeatedly referred to the power you have in American culture that women and POC do not. I have stated that this American culture is a white male dominant culture. That’s not news. You didn’t create it and you don’t have to be actively promoting it to benefit from it.
Regardless of whether or not you asked for it, you do have greater power due to your gender and skin color. So does every other white American male. With greater power comes greater responsibility. What I have been asking repeatedly, in a variety of ways, is that you use a greater portion of that power to bring about a less sexually aggressive, less white male dominant, more egalitarian American culture.
Ryan, it seems to me one of your biggest disagreements is with the fact of white male privilege. Am I correct in that?
Debbo
2017-12-04 20:37
Grudz, whether I like it or not, and I do not, you have more power and influence than I do because you’re a white male. With that comes greater responsibility.
grudznick
2017-12-04 21:37
Ms. Geelsdottir, if you believe I’m a white male and that places me on a shelf above you seems more like a self esteem issue that you could address through other means like counseling or feminist group chants, however I will agree with you that with greater responsibility comes more power and influence, and I shall attempt to wield my responsibilities in a manner that makes my granddaughter proud, and her children of either sex, or gender of any degree, proud as well.
Grudz, Deb is not making a statement that you are “on a shelf above her.” Far from it. She is simply stating that we men have a unique responsibility to check the harms taking place against women. Her commentary deserves better than your word games.
Ryan, you’re still dodging. What grievance do you have with being told to exercise our sex-based power and privilege to stop sexual harassment?
I understand that the goal is to eliminate sex-based power and privilege and achieve equality. But we don’t have that equality right now. Continually trying to put men and women on the same footing in addressing a social ill perpetrated uniquely by men ignores reality.
Ryan
2017-12-05 09:14
I think your quote “…a social ill perpetrated uniquely by men ignores reality.” ignores reality. Yes, the perpetrators of a majority of sexual assaults are males, I agree with that, but it is not unique to men. I have no grievance with the general idea that all people should be good people and help fix this issue. My sole grievance is with the issue that males being the majority of perpetrators obligates other males to take a greater stand, to do more, to speak up louder, to risk their own livelihoods, to an extent beyond the obligation put on an innocent party who happens to be a female.
Deb asked if I have a disagreement with white male privilege, and I honestly don’t know how to answer it because I don’t know what that means. Now, I’m not stupid, I can guess what Deb thinks it means, but I don’t know what it means in real life. I get that if you look at the history of America, most of the people who have been “in charge,” whether politically or otherwise, have been white men. I don’t think that translates to the effect on the individual, subjective life of the average white male today that some non-white, non-males seem to think. If a white male pretends he knows what it’s like to be a woman, or somebody of a different race (a People of Color, as Deb likes to absurdly-capitalize), he would be called out for being an ignorant sexist or an ignorant racist. If a woman or a Person of Color (it feels condescending like this, I better quit the sarcasm) has an opinion about what it means to be a white male, I think that person is equally ignorant. The things that make us unique, and human, and different from each other are our morals, our thoughts, and our actions – not our skin color or our gender. From what I understand through this post and the comments, Deb has done great things to help people who have been through a lot of rough stuff, and it wouldn’t surprise me if it that experience has effected her view on millions of white men, even though she has as little knowledge of their lives and they do of hers.
I mentioned this above – I don’t believe that the average joe schmoe who works at the gas station and pays rent for his crappy little apartment and lives his regular old life day in and day out has some special unique power that stems from the color of his skin and his XY chromosomes. Most of us – regardless of gender and race – are not at all influential on others; we are the average, run of the mill rats in this big silly race. Crooked politicians and scumbag perverts and other predators don’t care about some loser white guy any more or less than they care about any other person who isn’t doing something for them.
Short and sweet: People should be judged based on their actions, not their race, gender, or any other immutable characteristic. That’s called . . . discrimination.
Jenny
2017-12-05 09:33
Ryan, I understand what you’re saying. A friend of mine has always said ‘all that really matter is who your daddy was’. It’s really all about money in this country is what he was saying and of course there’s some truth to that. It’s not all about the color of your skin, but also the power that you have if you come from a family of money.
So liberals like to say ‘white male’ privilege which always ticks the pubs off but there is some truth to that, if you dig deep, and there’s really a lot of truth to it if you have come from a family that rules the town you live in.
Let me put it this way – would you, if you could, change places and be a black man in the US? Would I change places if I could and be a black woman? I honestly would say I wouldn’t want to change places and be black. I would not want to be a black woman for many reasons – discrimination and economic disadvantage being amongst the top reasons.
Debbo
2017-12-05 16:45
“Short and sweet: People should be judged based on their actions, not their race, gender, or any other immutable characteristic. That’s called . . . discrimination.” Ryan
Exactly right. However, it’s not the case. I urge you to do some research on white male privilege in the USA. I applaud your idealism Ryan, because I’m something of an idealist myself, but it must be leavened with reality and achieved via hard work.
Debbo
2017-12-06 17:01
I ran across this wonderful article on FB from Fatherly.com. It’s about how to raise a boy who respects and likes women. I think his plans are really very effective. You can find it here:
That took guts, Debbo. I am proud of you and what you have done for yerself.
Ms Deb’s attention to details is remarkable, both in her artistry and her written work. Takes guts of a remarkable kind.
I have missed my old friend, Ms Geelsdottir, and always enjoyed typing her name. I, too, would like to say she has guts, both because she does and also because I’d like to have a third blogging in a row with the word guts in it.
I miss Deb a lot on here and wish she would come back. We need her more than ever. Please come back Deb!
As always, her message is written beautifully.
Another unofficial spokesperson for women everywhere, commissioned by the unofficial spokesperson for men everywhere. You folks keep forgetting to call my wife and me when these votes are taken.
Doesn’t the definition of “feminist” suggest that the person supports equality? I guess some people are more equal than others. If I hadn’t already spent so much time standing up for actual equality in my comments on the last post on this same topic, I would put my own thoughts in writing here. However, this time I’ll leave it to a total stranger:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/30/opinions/women-complicit-harassment-lauer-roxanne-jones-opinion/index.html
Welcome back Deb! I hope you stick around and share more of your knowledge and insights.
Ryan, let me be the first to suggest you don’t know scat about Deb or her background.
I absolutely know nothing about Deb or her background other than what is posted here. I am responding to the preface for the article and the content of the article only.
It is refreshing having Deb posting here again and we should welcome her back with open arms.
I wasn’t aware that Deb or anybody else posting here has to be an official “spokesperson” to express their opinions.
As always, Deb has the courage to make her experience speak for itself.
In multiple threads posted her regarding the sexual assault of women the two words I haven’t seen are respect and integrity.
We shouldn’t have to parse every word to know the difference between right and wrong.
Welcome back, Deb, and I look forward to hearing more from you.
Somebody expressing his or her opinions is great – civil discourse is what separates us from the animals. Somebody who expresses what he or she suggests is the opinions of a whole population of people is considered, by definition, a spokesperson.
Deb being a woman doesn’t mean she knows what all women have done, are doing, or should do. And she obviously doesn’t know what it’s like to be a man any more than I know what it’s like to be a 1979 Pontiac Firebird.
This message would have been more powerful and persuasive if it wasn’t so obviously riddled with secret motive. I think articles like these are actually more likely to drive good men away from actively participating in this “cause” because the call to action is, on it’s face, an attack on those good men. Call me crazy, but that’s not the way I would approach an issue if my goal was universal appeal.
To be clear, I re-read Deb’s opinion again.
Ryan claims to have commented on the content of her presentation, but I haven’t seen those comments. Instead he is attacking Deb as being a “spokesperson” with “secret motives”. There isn’t a woman on this planet that can speak to every woman’s opinion on sexual assault, Deb is no exception and she knows it.
Deb’s comments are based on her vast experience in working with women and minority groups as well as her ministry.
Aside from Deb’s previous postings on DFP, I know her and consider her a friend and respect her integrity and her word.
The next time Cory names a “spokesperson” he should contact all of us so we can cast our vote.
If only Drumpf can save America from Obama’s reign of terror, then Deb G can surely speak for all women. But, Deb does not speak for all women. As Roger poignantly states, Deb has ample experience through helping others in social work and her ministry. Deb also has her own life experiences to draw upon.
People and comments like Ryan’s are part and parcel of what drove Deb away in the first place. Deb is a pretty darn good artist and special human being. Shame, Ryan.
I said nothing to attack Deb. I admitted I know nothing about her. Never heard her name. She is likely all of the things you people are saying – a great artist, full of integrity, highly experienced helping people. I have no idea and never said one thing about her as a person. This blog and it’s comments are full of people who disagree with each other on any number of topics, some respectfully and others not so much. I was in no way disrespectful so everyone defending Deb as a person and attempting to make me feel shameful about disagreeing with her are missing the point. Especially the ones who call people names on here all the time, shamelessly. If I’m not welcome posting here, Cory has the power to remove me and my opinions at his whim.
Aside from your comments about Deb not being an official “spokesperson” on women’s sexual assault, Ryan, what precisely do you disagree with in Deb’s opinions?
Other than disagreeing with the one person speaking for everyone, like you said, I disagree in general with the entire premise of the article that men have to try harder than women to solve this problem. Call me a radical feminist, but I want equality!
Specifically, I disagree with the following comments:
“I don’t think we can do much more.”
“Women are doing all they can”
“Who receives the lion’s share of the credit for the home, for decisions made, for any number of all the small things that, put together, make a family’s life?”
“The whole of these teaching opportunities is something men need to work out.”
“…males promote that as the singular, highly flawed image of masculinity…”
“Males, what do think of when you hear, “Be a man . . . “? I think of something that shows power over, dominance, suppression of emotion. Perhaps I am in a minority, but I don’t think so.”
“…your problem.”
Every woman who has ever been sexually assaulted is a spokesperson on that subject. Men, being bigger and stronger and more testosterone fueled need to try harder to control their urges as they have the power(physically and job wise)over virtually every female on the planet.
Wingnuts in general need to lighten up on trying to control every aspect of a woman’s life, especially as it pertains to motherhood and pregnancy.
I don’t see anyone on here, including Cory trying to get you banned or even suggesting you stop voicing your opinions.
“People and comments like Ryan’s are part and parcel of what drove Deb away in the first place…Shame, Ryan” is what I was responding to.
And no, again, I don’t think men who are good to people owe society more because their bones and muscles are bigger.
And for what it’s worth (nothing) I’ve been a victim of physical assault at least 6 times, 3 of which were sexual assaults under today’s definition, perpetrated by both men and women, and I would never consider myself a spokesman for anybody else.
Hi folks. It’s great to hear from you and talk to you again. You are a great bunch and SDFP is a first rate blog. Thanks for publishing my piece Cory. I appreciate it.
Ryan, my understanding is that you disagree that male aggression is a problem for males to solve. That’s interesting. Why should someone else solve it for males?
I’d love to see males be the first to step up to the mark when another perpetrator is outed.
For instance, here in Minnesota we’ve had 2 legislators resign as of 1/1/2018 for sexual harassment, 1 Democrat and 1 Republican. The Republican, Tony Cornish, has been in the lege for a long time. The GOP leadership has been warning young women, pages, interns, etc., to stay away from him. That means that the current GOP leader, Kurt Daudt, and his predecessor, Kurt Zellers, knew about Cornish, but did nothing. They allowed him prey on those women for years! Why aren’t any of the good guys calling for Daudt’s and Zeller’s heads? Where were those “good guys” when Cornish was terrorizing young women?
Women knew and reported him to the leadership, Daudt and Zellers. Or to the media, who wouldn’t go to press with “unsubstantiated rumors.” But consider this: About 5 years ago the GOP speaker in the MN House was a married woman. (I cannot think of her name now.) She got caught in a car in some type of sexual act with a man not her husband. It was in the papers and she got booted from her position and forced to resign by her party.
(These types of things happen ALL the time.)
Women are not in a position to fix this for males. We can’t. We don’t have the power. You males can.
Well, this won’t be short. Sorry in advance.
First, I want to be clear that I don’t believe male aggression in itself is a problem that needs to be fixed by anybody. Aggression, by both males and females, is a biological process and is responsible for a lot of good things like the drive to succeed, competitiveness, and protective instincts. Without aggression, I don’t think our species would have made it out of the caves. Aggression and assault are not the same things.
With that clarified, I absolutely believe that sexual assault is a big problem with harmful consequences and needs to be eliminated immediately. The reasoning behind my disagreement is that I really do want this to stop and I am practical in what I think will actually reduce the number of assaults. I have an aversion generally to feel-goodery in a conversation about solving a real problem. So, with the goal of reducing, then eliminating, sexual assaults, not merely banning the idea of maleness in what I think is an overly-sensitive 2017 America, here is why I disagree with sexual assault being a problem for men specifically to fix:
First, average good-hearted men, at least a hundred million of them in this country, are a lot less powerful and influential than so many women and social justice men pretend we are. Articles like yours lump us in with horrible criminals over which we have no control or level of persuasion. The dirtbag type of guy who asks girls lewd questions in bars and drives home drunk putting everyone at risk is not the kind of guy who is talked into or out of anything by his morally conscious, non-dirtbag male “peers.” Average good men don’t and can’t control dirtbags with our average goodness any more than women. Guys that would risk prison to get sexual gratification aren’t guys who can be reasoned with by bloggers and accountants and bus drivers.
Second, I believe there are many women who have been through terrible things and came out the other side determined to make life better for others and prevent future assaults. However, the tone of your article suggests that all women are vigilant servants of this cause while average good men are sitting around watching assaults occur every day and doing nothing. I think neither is correct. There are many women who have never done a darn thing to help this issue just like there are plenty of unhelpful good men. But all good men do support eliminating these crimes already. Despite there still being progress to be made on social and informal aspects of gender equality, under the law men and women are equal. Men vote for women and women’s causes. Women are more free and equal in this country now than ever before and it’s because good, smart, moral people of both genders stood together to end the culture of discrimination fostered not by men generally, but by bad men with power specifically. So there are women and men who have fought hard for equality, and there are women and men who have done nothing. I believe asking only men to step it up is missing an important opportunity to say to women that if they don’t speak up or take action when something happens, it may frankly be impossible to help them. Then the perpetrator is unchecked and is free to carry on victmizing others. I understand that coming forward is a very difficult thing to do for many women and for many reasons, but that makes it no less important. Again, I’m a fan of practical action over feel-good talk because it creates results rather than soothing feelings. If the goal is only to make a victim feel better, fine, we can focus on that. However, as I said, the goal should be to actually reduce and then eliminate sexual assaults, and that will never be possible until every single assault is known by somebody who can help. That requires either the victim take action personally and stand up to the assailant, or to report it if that is not possible for any reason. This is asking a lot from victims, I’m keenly aware of that, but it is absolutely necessary to achieve our shared goal. Although I admit it is very different, asking average good men to stand up to their boss, or any other person who has some power over them, in order to protect a stranger who happens to be a woman, is not a consequence-free request. Men are being asked to risk their careers, reputations, financial security, and more as if we face no repercussions for calling out bad behavior. Anybody standing up to a dirtbag with power is risking something, and it’s hard for me to understand why it’s ok to ask anybody to risk something to protect a stranger that the stranger isn’t willing to risk for themselves. I think all people who know of sexual assaults or other violent crimes should speak up, act out, or both. All people. All people. All people. Equally. We are all in this together.
That leads me to my final point. I think articles like this dig the line between men and women deeper. It oozes with an attitude of men versus women. That doesn’t help. If I was putting a message out to the public in order to solve a problem, I would ask for unity in purpose, unity in action. I would ask all people who support the cause to shout at the top of our lungs what we think is right. I would encourage every able body and mind to stand together to fight for each other and for our self. I would never ever tell half of my supporters that we have done all we can so we need the other half to finish the battle for us. I would direct my words, my energy, my action, and my aggression at the criminals, the dirtbags, the predators. Aggression, after all, can be a powerful force for good.
That’s why I disagree with your article. We seem to want at least some of the same things, I just disagree with what path you seem to think gets us there.
From Cory’s DFP thread Former Legislator, Lobbyist Says Sexual Misconduct Common in Legislature, Ryan said the following:
“I have never been victimized in the way we are talking here, so I can’t imagine how difficult it is to come forward, but I don’t think the difficulty in doing so is reason to not encourage it”. 2017-10-20 at 8:50.
And from this thread Ryan stated at 17:44, “And for what it’s worth (nothing) I’ve been a victim of physical assault at least 6 times, 3 of which were sexual assaults under today’s definition, perpetuated by both men and women, and I would never consider myself a spokesman for anybody else”.
Of the 6 physical assaults 3 of which were sexual assaults, were any of these assaults, that did or didn’t happen, reported to the police or other authorities?
I stand by both comments. The instances discussed in that post were different than what I’ve experienced, and I didn’t want to project my feelings from my experiences onto people with different experiences. I don’t asdume all victims are alike, like some others might. Most or all people have probably been assaulted in one way or another, but I’m not defined by people who have done things to violate my rights or autonomy, and neither are my opinions on how to eradicate assault from our lives. My experiences were all long ago, the most recent on thanksgiving of 2008. Although oversimplified, they include: being offered $200 for homosexual sex by a total stranger in a bar, being hit in the face by a female with absolutely no reason or provocation, two separate “chump shots” by drunk men at bars, one female attempting to force herself on me after I refused her advances because she was married, one teacher throwing me against a wall and holding my face against the concrete gym wall while yelling at me for talking back, and there are others but my history isn’t the point of my disagreement with this article. The points of disagreement are spelled out at length above. It’s not about me, as I’ve said.
Of the things that did indeed happen, by the way, police were called by people other than myself on 2 occurrences, one lead to an arrest. I defended myself against one of the bar assaults and held that fella accountable myself. I felt no desire or need to report the females because I considered neither at the time to be an assault, I just thought they were dumb bi****s. I said these things were assault under today’s definition, not that I felt victimized.
Thanks for your comment Ryan. I think you’re reading a lot into my editorial that isn’t there. No where did I say “all men are bad” or “all women are good” or any of the other “all or nothing” kinds of statements you’ve apparently read into it.
I also have not said that women are suddenly going to sit back and do nothing. We will continue to live our lives as we always have, endeavoring to remain safe from predators and keep others safe.
But Ryan, all this is nibbling around the edges. The fact remains that males are by far the top predators among humans. The percentages are overwhelming. I know a number of wonderful men who find this very troubling and really dislike having to share their gender with those predatory types and have some of that stain on themselves. But that’s factual. That’s what we have to deal with.
Why shouldn’t other males, non-predatory males, be leading the effort to fix this problem within their gender? Why isn’t it their problem to address?
You’re just asking the same question again, Deb, and my answer hasn’t changed. People who don’t assault other people or condone assaulting other people should all do everything within their power to help the cause. The gender of a good person should not be a factor in his or her obligation to society.
Okay, I’m going to do something I hate, parse words.
Is there a difference between being a victim and being victimized. If you are a victim of sexual assault, doesn’t that make you a victim and weren’t you indeed victimized?
In the comments above you have claimed to be both a victim and victimized and than claim that you were neither, depending, of course, on your circumstances.
By virtue of the fact you have claimed to be assaulted and sexually assaulted, you have in part made this about you.
I find that your claims to be inconsistent and questionable.
Yes, of course I’m asking the same question. That’s the point of my piece.
From the beginning of human time women have been trying to fix the problem. We obviously cannot. So you and other males need to step up and solve Your Problem. It is Your Problem. Your gender are the actors.
I used to coach basketball, softball and track. If my my basketball team was playing poor defense, it was not the responsibility of the other team to weaken their offense. My team needed to make the change ourselves by practicing, learning, pressuring one another to step up, etc.
That is a metaphor, not intended to say that women and males are separate teams, but to show that you -males- are not doing enough to solve a problem beyond the other “team’s” means to address.
I don’t care if you believe me or not. You pick words apart to challenge me but in the previous article a woman was talking about workplace sexual harassment that she was obviously bothered by. I have never experienced that, so I said so. Does your believing my experiences affect the objective truth to my arguments?
Later, a comment was made that all victims of assault are spokespersons for it. I only brought up my experiences, all if which I mentioned are 100% true, in response to that, to say I wasn’t a spokesperson for anybody just because I had been assaulted. Yes there is a difference between being assaulted and feelinhg victimized. Everyone handles things differently so I may take an assault very different personally than a woman or another man, but it doesn’t change the definition of assault that I was referring to.
I voiced my thoughts on this issue in detail and repeatedly before ever discussing myself, and only did so to respond to a specific comment.
Hey Roger. 😊 I don’t think you were asking me, but here is my take anyway, just because I like to talk to you:
“Victim, victimized” are essentially the same. People who’ve worked with folks who’ve been assaulted in various ways seem to be fairly consistent in saying the goal is to move on to “survivorship.” That’s the condition of having mostly recovered to a normal life, decent sleep, work, relationships, etc.
Sexual assault is usually more traumatic than physical assault because it’s internal and involves a higher level of nudity and vulnerability than being punched, kicked and/or hit.
I didn’t say anything about “feeling victimized”, I said victimized.
OK Roger, pretend that means something and that you added anything at all to this conversation.
Where is bcb and Cory. I’d like this to be a family type reunion with Debbo as the special guest.
I haven’t felt the need to defend a lady that does not need me to defend her. She can eloquently defend herself based on her life experiences and chosen professions. Her only fault is she has thrown away any chance of absolution because she and I correspond and little godalmighties frown on me from afar.
Hi Deb, please feel free to comment on any post I put up, and the feeling is mutual, I enjoy talking to you to.
Words have meaning and can complicate a situation that doesn’t need to be complicated.
I have lived my life believing that less is more and it isn’t just constrained just to words, but to everyday life.
I accept the premise that far too many women are sexually assaulted and that as a man there is something I can do about it. The first thing is to treat women with respect and believing them when they say they were assaulted, and in doing so you learn to keep your hands and lewd comments to yourself. That is the contribution I make to the sexual assault epidemic.
There is probably more I can do and trust that you and other women can guide me in that effort.
Admittedly, I don’t know that I have contributed anything to this conversation since I was not elected a “spokesperson” and don’t profess to be a specialist in women’s sexual trauma.
Deb, you’re assigning teams based on genitals. I’m suggesting good people versus bad people. If that’s your stance, consider me happy to disagree.
Mr. Ryan, I believe that Ms. Geelsdottire subscribes to a belief that all people with the hangy downey parts are evil. Evil, like Satan, and they cannot help themselves.
Gentlemen, Grudz and Ryan, I believe you both missed this sentence of my comment, “That is a metaphor, not intended to say that women and males are separate teams.”
Roger, you asked about what you, as a male, can do. One of the things I’d urge any male to do is get out of the male bubble.
As the dominant humans, the world has been shaped to your pleasure. That extends from such mundane things as the number of toilets available for women v. males in a public venue or the temperature in a suite of offices, to the critical ratio of women to males that create, enforce or judge public policy. Given that, it is not surprising that males tend to think their world view and experiences are universal. They are not.
Go to a public space, one with the greatest diversity possible. Sit or stand quietly and watch women, girls and People of Color. Look hard for differences in how they move, sit, converse, stand, facial expressions, etc.
Read nonfiction by women and POC about their lives and Believe Them. Watch movies like “Iron Jawed Angels” and others about the lives of women and POC.
Males, immerse yourself in a culture other than your own. Believe what you see, those experiences are valid. Remember that no 2 POC or women have identical experiences so if you find disagreement, neither is invalidated; both are true. No particular culture is perfectly monolithic.
Males, how can you change your culture? I remember Wilt Chamberlain being hailed and applauded publicly because he claimed to have over 1000 different sexual partners. How do you change that to a stigma of shame?
Then there is the 13 yo boy who was seduced by his female teacher. It’s a criminal sexual act, so how do you support the boy and silence the adult males who are applauding him?
How do you change those harmful aspects of your culture?
Metaphor or not, nearly everything Deb has said appears to encourage sexism and objectification of people. Just because she’s a woman doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call out sexism when we see it. Double standards promote division in the populace, which is not what we need. I understand I lost the popularity contest on this thread, but I’m one of those nutcases who will support equality regardless of whether or not it’s popular.
So, Ryan, what yer saying about equality is more women should assault men until a balance is reached? Is that what you’re implying?
Just because no one agrees with you doesn’t make you a victim. This isn’t a popularity contest, which may be a big part of your problem.
Remember the old saying about digging and when to stop?
Debbo, you unexagerate the “Stilt’s” sexual prowess by around 20,000 women.
Compare that to NBA legend Wilt Chamberlain, who claimed to have slept with over 20,000 women, even though he only lived to be 63. That would mean Chamberlain had sex with 425 different women a year
When did he find time to play basket ball?
And to think Grudz claimed to be yer friend.
Mike, this isn’t Iowa. In South Dakota we can politely disagree with people and still be their friends.
Not even a nice try, Grudz. You didn’t politely disagree, you had someone hold Debbo while you stuck a hunnert knives in her back. You even forgot to say, excuse me. Polite you ain’t.
I, sir, have hangy-down bits so am viewed as evil, like Satan, by Ms. Geelsdottir. And I am eviler than some, but I can still be polite to the young ladies. Because I live in South Dakota.
McCTurtle has hangy down bits called jowls or turkey wattles or something, too. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
Women were treated as chattel for centuries and only in the past 6 or 7 decades have they started getting equality with white men. That means women have centuries of catching up from abuses of dominant men and societies that permitted such abuses.
You could cut all women some slack. Be a man. Kick wingnuts out of government and give women of America and the world a feeling that gents are on their side.
“I, sir, have hangy-down bits so am viewed as evil, like Satan, by Ms. Geelsdottir.”
That’s your conclusion, not mine Grudz. But it is one of the oldest tropes used to dismiss women’s comments regarding equality, “She’s just a man-hater!”
How about addressing the issues I’ve raised?
As you know, Ms. Geelsdottir, I am pro-woman. And it is OK for you to hate on me and other men at times, because I know deep down you do not.
Ryan, if you are such an adamant supporter of equality, why not help women attain that? Instead you seem to be focused on making claims against me personally, at the cost of addressing the issue here.
For me, this is not a Deb v. Ryan issue or even a women v. males issue. There is an enormous problem and males are the overwhelming majority of perpetrators.
Women have created domestic violence shelters, lobbied legislative bodies, educated law enforcement, etc. We’ve been told that we are the problem- our clothing, expression, dress, diet, compliance, lack of compliance, career, hair style, tone of voice, silence, ad nauseam. Issues such as domestic violence, rape, assault, sexual harassment and others have been labeled “women’s issues” by the male dominated legislative bodies, and shunted to one side.
Given all that, it just seems silly to think that the problem is not males, and theirs* to solve.
*(Women will always be involved because it’s our bodies and souls being attacked.)
(I deeply appreciate Deb’s masterful and persistent modeling of ideal public discourse. She resists distraction, hair-splitting, and personal attacks and doggedly focuses on the main issues of public concern. She speaks with sincerity and genuine care for all involved.)
I made no claims against you personally, Deb. I responded specifically and respectfully to the comments you made. I said nothing about you as a person. You are attempting to hold all men accountable for the bad acts of some men and I am simply not buying it.
As for equality, I absolutely, 100% support equality. I believe I am the only person on this comment thread suggesting everyone should treat all human beings the same. You say that what you are asking for is equality, but it isn’t. I also absolutely, 100% support the reduction and elimination of violent crimes of all types, including sexual assaults. However, as I mentioned at length in my comments above, I believe my approach is more practical than yours and more likely to achieve that goal.
You ask, if I support equality, why not help women attain it? I think I do. I treat men and women no differently, except my wife and my child who both have me wrapped around their fingers. At work, at the grocery store, with friends, with family, and anywhere else I happen to interact with humans, I treat them all the same unless there is a legitimate reason not to (gender, race, disability, etc., are not legitimate reasons, FYI). I think there are a lot of people like me. People who actually do what is within their power. People who don’t own time machines so aren’t able to stand up for the rights of somebody’s ancestors fifty generations ago. People who don’t need to be accused of violent crimes and misogyny that occurred 20,000 years ago, or 2,000 years ago, or 2 years ago, by somebody else. However, if, rather than treating people equally and with respect regardless of gender, you meant why don’t I commit my life to the cause of women’s rights, it’s because I believe in and support many things that aren’t my life’s calling. I would also love to see poverty eliminated. I would like to see race relations improve. I would like to see people everywhere reach the level of education that they want to. I would like to see the presence of religion in our daily lives reduced. I would like to help humanity explore and settle planets and solar systems outside of our own. I want to write the great American novel. I want to be great at my profession. I have many goals and many interests, but not enough time, energy, or ability for all of them.
It appears to be your opinion that all men owe a debt to all women. It is my opinion that such an opinion of entitlement is one reason otherwise “good” men don’t participate as actively as you would like them to in this cause. Tell somebody over and over that they are to blame for something they didn’t do, and then ask them to stand beside you, or to stand up for you, and I’m guessing you won’t get the response you feel like you deserve.
Cory, thank you for your kind observations.
Ryan, try this. Read what you’ve written in your last comment and then reread mine to see if you can find where I’ve said the things you claim.
It looks to me like you have specific preconceived notions that you just can’t let go of and, perhaps subconsciously, read into everything I write.
I’m guessing the subject of white male privilege is also difficult for you. Or am I wrong about that? The particular thing I notice in each of your comments is simmering resentment. It’s getting in the way of your attempts at discourse.
“So you and other males need to step up and solve Your Problem. It is Your Problem. Your gender are the actors.”
“It’s a problem which belongs to American males as the aggressors and as the privileged group.”
“The whole of these teaching opportunities is something men need to work out.”
“Males, it’s your issue, your problem.”
“From the beginning of human time women have been trying to fix the problem. We obviously cannot. So you and other males need to step up and solve Your Problem.”
“…share their gender with those predatory types and have some of that stain on themselves.”
“…to show that you -males- are not doing enough to solve a problem…”
Those are some of the things you said that I was responding to.
“Remember that no 2 POC or women have identical experiences so if you find disagreement, neither is invalidated; both are true. No particular culture is perfectly monolithic”
However, you had just said immediately before that “As the dominant humans, the world has been shaped to your pleasure.” about males.
You also said these following things which I was responding to (sometimes in metaphors, which are perfectly fine for illustration, no?):
“Because white males have the greatest privilege in America, they have the greatest power.”
“American men need to…”
“Men need to…”
“Men need to…”
“Men need to…”
“…males promote that as the singular, highly flawed image of masculinity…”
“Males, it’s your issue, your problem.”
But, really, the best couple of lines are these:
“Remember that no 2 POC or women have identical experiences so if you find disagreement, neither is invalidated; both are true. No particular culture is perfectly monolithic”
However, you had just said immediately before that:
“As the dominant humans, the world has been shaped to your pleasure.” about males.
How wonderful it must be for these females and ethnic minorities to get to have their own, unique experiences and individuality. I wouldn’t know what that’s like, since I am just a white man, the same as every white man. Our experiences are all the same, right? We are all born rich and powerful and the world bends to our whims, right?
When you say, “…the subject of white male privilege is also difficult for you,” do you mean that being born a white male obligates me to do something that a person of a different gender or race is obligated to do? If that’s what you mean, then yes, I have a problem with that.
You correctly identified the simmering resentment in my comments. Too bad you didn’t also notice the numerous contradictions in your positions that I questioned.
Temper, temper, Ryan. Go kick a female puppy of color and relax. Assert yer dominance because you be a mighty white male with power over all or something.
Careful mike from iowa, if you are a white male, my simmering resentment is really your problem to fix.
Be glad to.
Ryan, tell us what specific action Deb has asked you (and me!) to undertake that you find too burdensome, morally offensive, or otherwise unreasonable to do.
Ryan,
Throughout this thread and related thread on the subject sexual assault on women you have written about equality.
Can you tell us exactly how equality is a component of sexual assaults and how it would reduce these assaults.
In response to Cory and Roger both –
My comments have not been about me saying I’m unwilling to be a good person or to call out bad people or defend innocent people from bad people. I agree I should do all of those things.
Every one of my comments has been about equality in suggesting everyone should be doing all of those things, and that a person’s gender does not obligate them to do or not do anything different from a person of a different gender.
Any more than a person who lives in Rapid City has the responsibility to do something about the mean things other people in Rapid City do. Or people who are fat have a responsibility to deal with or change the behaviors of other people who are fat. I think I understand you, Mr. Ryan, and I am on the board with your feelings in this matter.
Nobody is saying it is ok to harass women. It is bad. It is very, very bad. But fat people and people in Rapid City and people with brown eyes all have responsibilities to deal with it and not dump it on a collective scape goat.
mike from Iowa –
I walked right into that one. Well played.
I’ll try to be more specific Ryan. Here are a couple examples where you go off the rails:
“People who don’t own time machines so aren’t able to stand up for the rights of somebody’s ancestors fifty generations ago. People who don’t need to be accused of violent crimes and misogyny that occurred 20,000 years ago, or 2,000 years ago, or 2 years ago, by somebody else. However, if, rather than treating people equally and with respect regardless of gender, you meant why don’t I commit my life to the cause of women’s rights, it’s because I believe in and support many things that aren’t my life’s calling.”
Of course I have not said anything like that.
And this:
“Tell somebody over and over that they are to blame for something they didn’t do.”
I have not “blamed” you. I have repeatedly referred to the power you have in American culture that women and POC do not. I have stated that this American culture is a white male dominant culture. That’s not news. You didn’t create it and you don’t have to be actively promoting it to benefit from it.
Regardless of whether or not you asked for it, you do have greater power due to your gender and skin color. So does every other white American male. With greater power comes greater responsibility. What I have been asking repeatedly, in a variety of ways, is that you use a greater portion of that power to bring about a less sexually aggressive, less white male dominant, more egalitarian American culture.
Ryan, it seems to me one of your biggest disagreements is with the fact of white male privilege. Am I correct in that?
Grudz, whether I like it or not, and I do not, you have more power and influence than I do because you’re a white male. With that comes greater responsibility.
Ms. Geelsdottir, if you believe I’m a white male and that places me on a shelf above you seems more like a self esteem issue that you could address through other means like counseling or feminist group chants, however I will agree with you that with greater responsibility comes more power and influence, and I shall attempt to wield my responsibilities in a manner that makes my granddaughter proud, and her children of either sex, or gender of any degree, proud as well.
Grudz, Deb is not making a statement that you are “on a shelf above her.” Far from it. She is simply stating that we men have a unique responsibility to check the harms taking place against women. Her commentary deserves better than your word games.
Ryan, you’re still dodging. What grievance do you have with being told to exercise our sex-based power and privilege to stop sexual harassment?
I understand that the goal is to eliminate sex-based power and privilege and achieve equality. But we don’t have that equality right now. Continually trying to put men and women on the same footing in addressing a social ill perpetrated uniquely by men ignores reality.
I think your quote “…a social ill perpetrated uniquely by men ignores reality.” ignores reality. Yes, the perpetrators of a majority of sexual assaults are males, I agree with that, but it is not unique to men. I have no grievance with the general idea that all people should be good people and help fix this issue. My sole grievance is with the issue that males being the majority of perpetrators obligates other males to take a greater stand, to do more, to speak up louder, to risk their own livelihoods, to an extent beyond the obligation put on an innocent party who happens to be a female.
Deb asked if I have a disagreement with white male privilege, and I honestly don’t know how to answer it because I don’t know what that means. Now, I’m not stupid, I can guess what Deb thinks it means, but I don’t know what it means in real life. I get that if you look at the history of America, most of the people who have been “in charge,” whether politically or otherwise, have been white men. I don’t think that translates to the effect on the individual, subjective life of the average white male today that some non-white, non-males seem to think. If a white male pretends he knows what it’s like to be a woman, or somebody of a different race (a People of Color, as Deb likes to absurdly-capitalize), he would be called out for being an ignorant sexist or an ignorant racist. If a woman or a Person of Color (it feels condescending like this, I better quit the sarcasm) has an opinion about what it means to be a white male, I think that person is equally ignorant. The things that make us unique, and human, and different from each other are our morals, our thoughts, and our actions – not our skin color or our gender. From what I understand through this post and the comments, Deb has done great things to help people who have been through a lot of rough stuff, and it wouldn’t surprise me if it that experience has effected her view on millions of white men, even though she has as little knowledge of their lives and they do of hers.
I mentioned this above – I don’t believe that the average joe schmoe who works at the gas station and pays rent for his crappy little apartment and lives his regular old life day in and day out has some special unique power that stems from the color of his skin and his XY chromosomes. Most of us – regardless of gender and race – are not at all influential on others; we are the average, run of the mill rats in this big silly race. Crooked politicians and scumbag perverts and other predators don’t care about some loser white guy any more or less than they care about any other person who isn’t doing something for them.
Short and sweet: People should be judged based on their actions, not their race, gender, or any other immutable characteristic. That’s called . . . discrimination.
Ryan, I understand what you’re saying. A friend of mine has always said ‘all that really matter is who your daddy was’. It’s really all about money in this country is what he was saying and of course there’s some truth to that. It’s not all about the color of your skin, but also the power that you have if you come from a family of money.
So liberals like to say ‘white male’ privilege which always ticks the pubs off but there is some truth to that, if you dig deep, and there’s really a lot of truth to it if you have come from a family that rules the town you live in.
Let me put it this way – would you, if you could, change places and be a black man in the US? Would I change places if I could and be a black woman? I honestly would say I wouldn’t want to change places and be black. I would not want to be a black woman for many reasons – discrimination and economic disadvantage being amongst the top reasons.
“Short and sweet: People should be judged based on their actions, not their race, gender, or any other immutable characteristic. That’s called . . . discrimination.” Ryan
Exactly right. However, it’s not the case. I urge you to do some research on white male privilege in the USA. I applaud your idealism Ryan, because I’m something of an idealist myself, but it must be leavened with reality and achieved via hard work.
I ran across this wonderful article on FB from Fatherly.com. It’s about how to raise a boy who respects and likes women. I think his plans are really very effective. You can find it here:
https://goo.gl/LY5uWW