Dang it! I thought we were rid of Bob Ellis. But he reëmerges on Gordon Howie’s blog with a fit of Christian Tourette’s Syndrome, shouting “Jesus!” for no particular reason.
Ellis repeats the tired old “America is a Christian nation!” line, with the usual quotes from early Americans (Rush, Washington, Webster, but never Paine) and documents (Mayflower Compact, New England Primer, but never the Treaty of Tripoli), as if it somehow comforts passionate followers of Christ to be told that America is just for them. Yet Ellis extends this exclusivist pap to the untestable, unprovable, and thus practically useless historical claim that “Without the Bible and our Christian heritage, THERE NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN A UNITED STATES.”
Ellis’s outburst consists solely of asserting the existence of Christianity in America during and after the Revolution. Many things existed on the English-occupied portion of this continent in the late 18th century: Christianity, Indians, pillories, privy pits, slavery and indentured servitude. The existence of those historical phenomena does not prove in the slightest the necessity of those phenomena for the creation of the United States of America. Since many of America’s Founders held slaves, shall we conclude that all modern Americans must hold slaves to preserve the American dream? Since most Founding Fathers tinkled outdoors, shall we deem flush toilets a democratic blasphemy?
Consider muskets. Our guns certainly helped us kick the Redcoats off the continent. But suppose the Chinese had kept gunpowder to themselves for a few more centuries. Would the American Revolution never have happened, or would the colonists and the crown have fought over taxes and representation anyway, but with knives and arrows? History runs once, so we can’t hit Rewind and find out. The question, thus, cannot answer any modern practical question of statecraft.
Consider that Georgia was founded as a debtors’ colony, James Oglethorpe’s noble attempt to provide a humane alternative to cruel English debtors’ prisons. Yet Georgia’s founding as a debtors’ refuge does not mean Georgia would have failed as a colony if it had been settled in some other fashion. Nor does Georgia’s history dictate that contemporary Georgia must forbid rich people from settling in Atlanta or to favor poor immigrants.
The fact that a thing was does not and cannot logically establish that a thing had to be, should have been or should continue to be.
As a representative of the 95 million Americans who don’t share Bob’s general faith, I contend that our Founding Fathers created a governing framework that is bigger and stronger than any one of all of its Founders’ personal biographies or beliefs. One can understand history without reënacting it. Just as a successful entrepreneur who’s never bounced a check can settle in Georgia, atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans (they’re nuts, but I won’t kick ’em out), and folks who’ve never read the Bible can still protect and participate in the American dream.
We all understand American history. We understand that lots of colonist went to church and that the Christian worldview influenced America’s first leaders and continues to influence our culture today. But none of that history proves that Christianity was essential to the Revolution (hey, the Redcoats were Christian, too!), the Constitution, or the continued preservation and promotion of the American ideals of pluralism and democracy. America is for everybody, not just the particular flavor of Christians that Bob Ellis wishes could hold a monopoly on power, forever and ever, amen.
America would not only exist, I believe we would be much better off.
Weird how rare it is to see an atheist in the news committing some terrible crime, huh?
It’s almost as if we can’t trust the thought processes or the actions of grown men and women who believe in ghosts and devils and talking snakes.
As a teacher of American Literature, I spent the early part of the course dealing with literary forms involved in the formation of the country, including the historical documents that were absorbed into its governing structure. The imaginative works did not come until the age of Romanticism.
Folks who insist upon the Christian foundation are unaware of the severe questioning over the treatment of the Indians and the massacres of them by Christians, of the escape of young puritans to the freeing atmosphere of the wilderness and plantations such as Merrymount, and the massive escapes from indenture, which were a partial reason for the importation of African slaves. Nor are they aware of how much America borrowed from the indigenous nations in forming the structures and ruling principles of America. Why do they think that Jefferson was constantly examining and questioning Christianity or that the influential founders were theists? It is not a matter of being Christian, but a matter of being educated in the history of the role it played.
post hoc ergo proptor hoc
Mr. Ryan, I echo your thoughts this afternoon.
Has there ever been a free country established by an Atheist?
Mr. OldSarg, the number of free countries established probably makes this comparison moot. There are simply not enough cases to determine a relationship between weak-minded Christians and countries founded.
Thomas Paine, however, did not believe in God. And I think Adams and Jefferson refused to acknowledge any such virgin births or other nutty ideas. I’m just sayin…
Literature, Latin, and American Indian influences in our founding documents—I appreciate my smart commenters.
OldSarg, has there ever been an oppressive regime founded by a Christian? Has there ever been a mass murder committed by a Christian? And do you have any response to Dr. Newquist’s statement that Christianity was not as central (never mind essential) to the founding of the United States as Bob Ellis asserts?
52 days without funding for children’s health. Pray for that Ellis. Pray that your crooked brethren have the decency to protect children..oops..forgot..you are the party of pedophiles now. I can see that in the statements coming out defending your latest apostle Saint Roy Moore.
The founding fathers had seen the problems caused by having “state religion”. Note that this is in article VI of the Constitution and in the South Dakota Constitution as well.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
There is no requirement to place a hand on the Bible or add “So help me God” to the oath or affirmation.
Well said, W R.
And then there is that inconvenient Letter to the Touro Synagogue by President George Washington, 1790 . . . “To Bigotry, No Sanction . . . to Persecution, No Assistance”.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_to_Touro_Synagogue
http://www.tourosynagogue.org/history-learning/gw-letter
May Mr. Ellis and his ilk live in England where they have a state church.
Well, yeah, in part I can agree with Ellis. A lot of what drove people to America and then away from any place in the US where religion was established was getting the hell away from the Bible. People pretty much said, “Don’t shove your Bible down my throat. I’ll figure it out myself.”
People didn’t care to listen to a bunch of old men interpreting morality for them or telling them what to believe or how to act, any more than they wanted a King or the Parliament to rule over them without any say so. Both religious and governmental tyranny were resisted. The Pilgrim colonies fell apart. So much for religion being necessary for the USA.
While most Americans may have had some religious faith, it wasn’t the sort that was gonna sit in a pew and be told something they didn’t believe. Most people in colonial America rarely set foot in a church, and they got the hell out of any Dodge that tried to make them.
By the way, the Pilgrims hated Christmas. To honor our Pilgrim founding let’s eschew “Merry Christimas.”
I, for one, think Mr. Howie would have made a great Pilgrim, going around shoving bibles down people’s throats. He even looks like a Pilgrim. Did they have Christmas back then in 1492?
Grudzie- I know you are from South Dakota so I’ll make an allowance or two. Plymouth Rock has less to do with 1492 than with chickens of the same name.
Columbus was not a Pilgrim and he did not make a pilgrimage to Columbus, Ohio or anywhere else.
I appreciate the history, Mr. mike. Please make allowances for my disturbed and aged mind, along with a certain confusion when it comes to the overgodders amongst us here, who live in South Dakota. We are slowly weeding them out, as we would have weeded out Mr. Columbus as well.
The Pilgrims started the “War on Christmas”?! Wow! I’d love to see what they think of our turkey masquerade and shopping sprees in their “honor”.
Thanksgiving is actually a pretty good example of how an institution or tradition can be bigger than the Christian sentiments of its originators. Sure, Pilgrims were all into Jesus. Sure, President Lincoln couched his 1863 holiday declaration in Christian terms. But that doesn’t mean secularists like me, along with Muslims, Buddhists, and other Americans can’t take the day off work (just as they do in Canada for a variety of historical reasons), spend time with family, and enjoy the fruits of liberty and prosperity. No specific religion is essential to such healthy moral practice.
I’m a member of United Church of Christ. We were the Congregational Church and we were the church of the pilgrims. We teach that Thanksgiving is secular and we invented the darn thing!! Don’t co-op a day of universal fellowship for your biased practices. It stinks up the dinner.
Not all Pilgrims were good and decent people. Molly Ivins/Lou Dubose recall- Next up, an ad for Pilgrim’s Pride, the chicken company of Lonnie “Bo” Pilgrim of East Texas. Some of you may remember Lonnie-Bo from the famous time, pre-Bush, when he strolled onto the floor of the Texas Senate and started handing out $10,000 checks to senators in the midst of a hearing on workers comp law.
Not all Pilgrims were good people.
Not all Democrats were good people, either. *Not your cue, Stace!! Remember when we were racist? Before we kicked out the Republicans? The church of the pilgrims was the first mainstream church in South Dakota to allow gay and lesbian marriages. And, the Democratic Party was the political party that leveled the playing field by legalizing it.
Things change … and it’s a hard thing for the SoDak majority to swallow. Wash it down with gravy. It’s better that way. LOL
John 2017-11-21 at 20:03: the Church of England remains the country’s official church (Anglican) in which the Monarch serves as Governor General. But times have changed and the country now recognizes and embraces all religions. And those who are non believers. The current mayor of London – Sadiq Khan – is Muslim. My paternal English ancestors were Baptists and were considered nonconformists and many restrictions were placed on them. But that didn’t stop them from owning land, their home and a textile mill. By 1850, most of my ancestors left England for America where they were free to practice their religion without restrictions.
I visited their former home in late June this year. And visited the Baptist church which my fourth great grandfather helped build in 1802. It was a great experience for me. I visited Westminster Abbey and St. Paul’s Cathedral and no one asked what religion I practice. I’m Lutheran but I was welcomed to attend the daily Eucharist at the Abbey and participated in communion. I can only imagine that my ancestors would be delighted at how much England has changed.
Shortly before Ted Bundy was finally put to sleep, he joined the Democratic party. He was a lifelong wingnut with a passion for kidnapping and killing young women. He was active in young wingnuts.
I would hope so, Rich. We can delight in change toward more inclusiveness. Here in the US, we can guarantee that change won’t lead to renewed religious oppression by strictly observing the First Amendment and forbidding the establishment of any official church.