Trump Wants to Kick Transgender Soldiers out of Military, Without Evidence of Real Harm

Thirteen months ago, President Barack Obama ended the United States military’s ban on openly transgender service members.

Since Barack Obama did it, Donald Trump feels compelled to undo it:

As usual, a Trump Tweet outburst makes instant headlines but not clear policy. Did the Commander in Chief just announce a purge of thousands of active-duty and reserve soldiers? Are we reimplementing Don’t Ask Don’t Tell for the T portion of the LGBT community, to whom he promised to be a better friend than Hillary Clinton?

Trump blurbs that transgender people burden the military with “tremendous medical costs.” But a 2016 RAND study found no such “tremendous” costs from letting transgender patriots serve their country:

Using private health insurance claims data to estimate the cost of extending gender transition–related health care coverage to transgender personnel indicated that active-component health care costs would increase by between $2.4 million and $8.4 million annually, representing a 0.04- to 0.13-percent increase in active-component health care expenditures [Agens Gereben Schaefer et al., “Assessing the Implications of Allowing Transgender Personnel to Serve Openly,” RAND Corporation, 2016].

For comparison, we learned last week that the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will cost us $27.5 billion more than we thought last year. The three F-35 models will cost $94.6 million to $122.8 million apiece. That’s tremendous.

Trump also blurbs that transgender soldiers cause “disruption“. The Rand study analyzed the transgender-service policies of Australia, Canada, Israel, and the United Kingdom—four of eighteen countries that allow openly transgender soldiers to serve—and found “In no case was there any evidence of an effect on the operational effectiveness, operational readiness, or cohesion of the force.”

Once again, Trump is making claims that are patently false to justify a policy reversal whose only real motivation appears to be his insatiable vindictiveness toward his predecessor.


105 Responses to Trump Wants to Kick Transgender Soldiers out of Military, Without Evidence of Real Harm

  1. Just more evidence that the “right” elected a buffoon….

  2. By kicking out the gays, old guys feel safe now that the closet is back in vogue. Bonus points, if you are talking about bathrooms only, then you are not talking about the bloat in the military that you note about cost overruns with graft and corruption.

    Next up will be the Catholics, Mormons, Seventh Days and of course the Jews will no longer be allowed to get shot in the Crusade. Blacks, Latino’s and of course, Indians move aside, this is a whites only thingy…until the shooting starts. Squirrel

  3. Ruh oh, a Seal from the unit that took down Osama has something to say to trump, will the bs artist meet this Seal face to face? Not likely. No one else to pick on so he has to go after something other than Russia. http://www.businessinsider.com/kristin-beck-trump-transgender-ban-2017-7

  4. Jeff Barth

    If anyone is willing to put their life on the line to defend our nation we should let them.

  5. distract critical thinkers from health care typhoon pounding the shore in congress

  6. mike from iowa

    If they are willing to put their life on the line they need a big thank you and well wishes. They don’t need made up drama from phony kristians. They need someone to figure out why 20 a day kill themselves. They don’t need a dumb son of a bitch commander in chief denigrating them and their service.

  7. Is trump one of “those” that checks out the size of what’s pissing in the adjacent urinal ??
    If a “guy” goes into a stall who cares. Guess it’s a republican thing, eh??

  8. mike from iowa

    Rumour has it the ban is unconstitutional because it is based on animus of Drumpf. Drumpfy will get his widdle fingers slapped by the courts again. Permanently, this time, I hope.

  9. mike from iowa

    http://fortune.com/2017/07/26/transgender-people-military-numbers/?xid=gn_editorspicks&google_editors_picks=true

    21% of all transgendered Americans have served their country. And Drumpf is likely lying about the costs involved.

    Seriously, the whole deal has to do with funding for Hatrian’s Wall. Wingnuts want money for trans surgeries removed from the budget or there won’t be a budget including wall money.

  10. Greg "Comrade" Deplorable

    So liberals are for taking guns away from the mentally ill, but want the mentally ill in our armed forces carrying guns.

    Go figure.

  11. John Sweet

    If this policy would have come into effect during the Vietnam era I know hundreds of thousands of infantrymen in Vietnam that would have come out as trans to get the hell out of there. BTW where was Trump at that time?

    This guy is a total loser. When are the Republicans going to do something about it? I am speaking to Thune, Rounds and NOem.

  12. Pleased to see so much support for our transgender members of the military! Was expecting at least one or two comments denigrating them. But then, a couple of the usual nay sayers haven’t weighed in, yet!

  13. “Pleased to see so much support for our transgender members of the military!”?

    Do any of you realize the suicide rate for male transgendered is 46%? Do you realize for women it is 42%? That is almost HALF! Almost half of those that consider themselves transgendered are trying to kill themselves. Supporting people as transgender as opposed to supporting mental health care for transgendered is like putting a gun in the hands of those who wish to kill themselves. It’s as if you all want them to die. The military already faces suicide rates far above our regular civilians and you wish to add this 42 to 46% burden on them? This is not “tolerance” this is pure evil on your part. Read the scientific studies on suicides of transgendered: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

  14. Porter Lansing

    OLd SarG … Psychologists say when people speak anonymously about others committing suicide it’s a subconscious signal they’re contemplating it for themselves. Why don’t you give us your name and we can get you some help, buddy?

  15. “Pooper” if you would read the study instead of focusing on me you would learn something.

  16. So transgenderism is a mental illness that heightens the risk that an individual will misuse a firearm? Hmmm, Greg, how did the RAND study miss all those instances of armed killing sprees by any of the thousands of transgender soldiers in the U.S. military? Where are the transgender mass shooters in the general public?

  17. Since military service apparently increases the risk of suicide, we should not place that burden on anyone. Disband the military.

  18. The military tests new recruits for mental fitness, right? They can tell if a recruit can shoot straight and follow orders, right? There are many conditions like gender dysphoria that, while unusual, are not pathological. Why make transgenderism a disqualifying condition if it doesn’t stop soldiers from doing their job?

    Erectile dysfunction is a nonpathologial condition. According to a 2015 Military Times report, the Pentagon spent $84 million on Viagra and other erectile dysfunction drugs. Do we need to kick guys who can’t get it up out of the service?

  19. mike from iowa

    Gee, I wpnder what might cause someone (anyone) to commit suicide when minor stuff like this happens- (from Sarg’s study)

    Respondents who experienced rejection by family and
    friends, discrimination, victimization, or violence had
    elevated prevalence of suicide attempts, such as those
    who experienced the following:

    Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57%

    Discrimination, victimization, or violence at school,
    at work, and when accessing health care

    Harassed or bullied at school (any level): 50-54%

    Experienced discrimination or harassment at
    work: 50-59%

    Doctor or health care provider refused to treat
    them: 60%

    Suffered physical or sexual violence:

    At work: 64-65%

    At school (any level): 63-78%

    Discrimination, victimization, or violence by law
    enforcement

    Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement
    officers: 57-61%

    Suffered physical or sexual violence: By law
    enforcement officers: 60-70

    Experienced homelessness: 69%

    This is just part of their environment.

  20. mike from iowa

    Maybe we better disband law enforcement.

  21. When Trump gets us into war in the Middle East and the Korean Peninsula, the Army won’t turn away anyone who can carry a rifle.

  22. happy camper

    To be a bit more specific, that study is not suicide rate, but attempted suicide rate, and it is lower, at 37% for those who are employed, which from the other link might be one reason why transgender seek out the military in higher numbers because of fewer opportunities elsewhere. If they keep it to themselves it’s 33% if they are very open it’s 50%. The actual rate is less apparent 7 to10 percent. Trump is doing this to save his agenda and build the wall Jon’s link said.

    That said, even with the Rand study which is just one study, doesn’t the high rate give you pause? How could there not be related problems? It flies in the face of logic. Their strong statement just doesn’t seem believable.

  23. mike from iowa

    During VietNam haydays the military was taking poor southern blacks and whites with lower IQS to keep the cannon fodder going.

    Nowadays those with lower IQs appear to be Drumpf’s kids.

    NBC sez 61 % of military suicide attempts occur within the first 2 months of enlistments. http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/military-suicides-most-attempts-come-soldiers-ever-see-combat-n580276

  24. Greg "Comrade" Deplorable

    I think its a smart decision, most transsexuals are not stable people and the medical procedures they are enduring only amplify it.

    You think you’ve seen PMS? You haven’t seen squat until you’ve witnessed a middle aged man pumped full of female hormones trying to undue what was genetically coded at conception.

    Or take a female trying to be a male. Have you ever met a bodybuilder on the juice? A guy with serious ‘roid rage symptoms? Yea. Multiply that by 2 and then you might be close.

  25. happy camper

    The thing is, I don’t know how many of you know what it’s like to be in the military. I remember one guy who looked like Michael Jackson, kind of effeminate. He was harassed to abandon. Young men are animals. Throw them all together they are animals not a bunch of high-minded liberals in a college class, and I’m thinking of a few others that were just not up to the physical and emotional standard, and the punishment they got from other trainees was intense. It broke them, so Old Sarg is not entirely wrong to be thinking about how this impacts them. Yes, things could be different from my experience 30 years ago, but military service is not a regular job mixed with gym class. You can’t look at one study and be so sure you know what’s what just cause it fits what you want to think and how you want to look at the world.

  26. Again, Greg, why did the RAND study find no evidence of such disqualifying instability among transgender soldiers in the U.S. or foreign militaries? Why have we not heard news stories about berserker transgender soldiers fragging their sergeants and shooting up their bases?

  27. “just one study” is still a heck of a study when it’s comprehensive and unrefuted by subsequent evidence.

  28. So by Hap’s logic, instead of seeking to rectify young men’s animalistic, immoral behavior, we should just deny innocent citizens of the opportunity to do moral, patriotic, and necessary things. Kind of like saying, “Women will be sexually harassed in the workplace, so we’d better make women stay home.”

  29. happy camper

    No, if one of those links is correct, transgender go into the military to reinforce their idea of gender, not inclusively, and because they don’t have as many opportunities. You’re trying to make a patriotic argument when it’s more complicated.

    You think you know everything when you have very limited experience in many matters cause you read and make holier than thou arguments. Don’t mean you’re right just cause you’re way up on that horse lookin down like many of the other commenters, and condemn others that may know more than you without any further consideration.

  30. happy camper

    Cory, you’re not logical enough. You don’t doubt your own ideas sufficiently. Your IQ works against you cause you can fool yourself, and others are happy to reinforce cause they want to see it the same way reality be damned. No bubbles that’s what being an atheist should be (grounded in reality), a willingness to look at how things really are without spin, without a need for it to sound positive, or worse advance a political agenda. Since you’ve started getting so political, you’ve changed.

  31. With Deplorables comment, it makes me wonder when he/she had their change operation as he/she seems to be fully knowledgeable of the consequences…if we are to believe he/she. I guess now is just another reason he/she chooses not to serve. Damn, so close and yet so far.

  32. Daniel Buresh

    Cory, I don’t think we should allow bigots to comment unless they are willing to sign their name. They need to be held accountable for their comments.

  33. mike from iowa

    HC, Deplorable, et al are just overanalyzing this as they usually do.

    Our US armed forces should be happy as hell to get any recruits-knowing their lives will be wasted to satisfy some rwnj fauxknee kristian’s ego and to show how tough he is. It is the wingnut draft dodgers that are the surest bet to start wars for nothing and this includes dumbass dubya who only pretended to serve his time in the Texass air guard.

  34. What a bunch of hate-filled phony patriots. These arguments about the cost of medical care, disruptions, and the risk of harassment are laughable to any person who thinks rationally about issues and attempts to respond appropriately.

    If medical care, such as reassignment surgeries, is such an insurmountable obstacle, deal with that issue directly by reigning in those costs through reducing administrative expense and bureaucratic baloney. If any people are being victimized by their colleagues in the military, deal with the perpetrators harshly rather than blaming the victims. To suggest that the only reasonable solution to these problems is to ban an entire demographic from honorably serving their country is a symptom of decayed morals and a lack of critical thinking. Or just stupidity and misplaced frustration. Or all of those.

    From my very cursory research, it seems like a lot fewer people are signing up to serve than before – probably due to many factors including other job opportunities, lack of faith in the government, and lack of support for being the world police that our country feels like it needs to be. Maybe if somebody is willing to fly across the globe and fight for this country, even if I don’t agree with why we are fighting, we should let that person go. I know I’m not going.

    “But what about their genitals!?” say a bunch of middle-age, overweight, over-paid, under-worked idiots. “Don’t these trans people care what I think about their genitals!?”

    I was born in the U.S.A. and I love so many things about it, but it is getting harder and harder to stand up for when crap like this is the focus of our government and military. Too bad Trump is a sociopath and so many of his followers are non-thinking ass-kissers. We had made so much progress since I was a kid, and now it feels like it is all crumbling at our feet.

  35. mike from iowa

    Also beginning Oct. 1, the Military Health System will begin providing transgender troops “all medically-necessary care” related to gender transition, Carter said. A military doctor will determine what medically-necessary care is needed for such individuals on a case-by-case basis. That care could include gender reassignment surgery or hormone therapy, a senior defense official said. It will not include any cosmetic surgery, added the official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the policy publicly.

    The costs to the military associated with allowing open transgender service will be relatively low, the defense official said. The military was only likely to incur about $4 million to $14 million per year in additional medical costs to provide the medically-necessary transition care.

    Treatment for an individual transgender servicemember, the official added, would cost about $40,000 to $50,000 in that person’s lifetime. Much less than the $100,000 or more the Defense Department would spend on their training through their service time.

    “The cost of forcing someone out of service and losing the benefits of hundreds of thousands of dollars of training we’ve provided them for this much smaller amount

  36. mike from iowa

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/27/politics/trump-military-transgender-ban-joint-chiefs/index.html

    Uh, someone forgot to tell the JCS about the transgender ban.

  37. Roger Cornelius

    Suicides can happen to all races, sex, social classes, etc.
    In recent years suicides are happening at alarming rates on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and not one was reported as having a thing to do with gender or transgender.
    Are we to ban transgender recruits from the military because it might make them suicidal?
    A soldiers value should be based entirely on his/her job performance and not on some boogey man.
    The claim that transgender reassignment surgery costs the military too much money is stupid. The recently passed $1.8 Trillion budget is so full of pork and waste it should be a call of outrage by republicans and Democrats.
    As an example back 2015 the DoD was spending millions of tax payer money to the NFL for recruitment advertising, saluting our troops and game day fly-overs?
    If the military can afford to spend on all their luxury spending, they can afford to make a soldier battle ready.
    Truth to tell, the only people that know the facts about transgender people are those going through it. Read all the studies you want, they don’t mean a thing to the transgender person .

  38. Apparently for Trump, transgenderism is just a pre-existing condition for which he wants to deny veterans coverage and deny patriots the opportunity to serve their country.

    But until Trump denounces spending $84 million a year on Viagra etc. for the military, I don’t want to hear anything about $8 million a year for transgender treatments being a “tremendous” financial burden.

    RAND didn’t find any evidence that an increased tendency toward suicide among transgender soldiers poses a risk to military readiness. Heck, every soldier in the Imperial Japanese army was prepared to kill himself, and they put up a heck of a fight in the Pacific.

  39. mike from iowa

    Japanese thought failure was a shame they couldn’t live with.

    Shame is a condition most wingnuts can’t abide having.

  40. Ah, I see the nay sayers clamored aboard while I was busy! Pathetic that so many people always have to find someone to hate and demean! Almost every demographic group in this country, women, Native Americans, Irish, Catholics, Chinese, Latinos, Blacks, disabled, mentally or physically or LGBQT, has been despised and discriminated against by mostly old rich white protestant males who just want to maintain the status quo that gives them all the power and control over everyone else! This is just one more example!

    Fear of change that makes everyone equal under the law is why there’s so much rejection of anyone that’s different from the dominate group! As soon as society accepts one group, more or less, the vitriol is redirected at another vulnerable group! So hoping our human race eventually gets past harming others to somehow benefit only the dominate group! Before the entire race and/or planet are destroyed!

  41. Hold your horses, says the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who apparently agrees that Twitter is no way to set policy for the greatest fighting machine in the world:

    …“There will be no modifications to the current policy until the President’s direction has been received by the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary has issued implementation guidance.”

    “In the meantime, we will continue to treat all of our personnel with respect. As importantly, given the current fight and the challenges we face, we will all remain focused on accomplishing our assigned missions” [Marine General Joe Dunford, quoted in Bryan Bender and Jacqueline Klimas, “Joint Chiefs: ‘No Modifications’ to Transgender Policy from Trump Tweet,” Politico, 2017.07.27].

    I wonder if General Dunford was among the generals Trump consulted before hitting Twitter yesterday.

  42. The Endocrine Society~ “Among military veterans identifying as transgender, 90 percent have at least one mental health diagnosis, such as posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) or depression, and nearly 50 percent had a hospitalization after a suicide attempt or suicidal thoughts. These study findings, from a single veterans’ hospital, will be presented Friday at The Endocrine Society’s 98th annual meeting in Boston.” https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160401130628.htm

  43. Another article claims that suicide is more common for veterans that have suffered before enlistment. Duh. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140809141438.htm

    So then, it looks to me like this is going to a place that is really stating that PTSD and everything that it includes, was actually something that happened before military duty. Hmmm, looks like they are gonna start to deny that when you saw all the blood, guts and gore, it was really not as bad as the trauma you received in the third grade when the teacher caught you playing with yourself and told your mom.

  44. Common Sense Approach:
    The most helpful therapies for gender dysphoria is focus not on achieving the impossible—changing bodies to conform to thoughts and feelings—but on helping people accept and even embrace the truth about their bodies and reality.”~ Dr. Ryan T. Anderson, When Harry Became Sally: Responding to the Transgender Moment

  45. Good catch Porter, Oldsarg does his usual kabuki dance with the facts. Soon he will drag out Pat Robertson as a reliable scientific source.

  46. I just remembered how Mooch ties into my younger days. One of my favorite recordings was Firesign Theater’s “I think we are all bozo’s on this bus” Damned if that is still not accurate on cult republicans and their dear leader. What a busload of bozo’s with Barney trump as the driver. gwhahaha what a goof.

  47. Not only is he a clown; he’s a cowardly clown. At least Bush, the lesser, showed up for a military dental appointment.

  48. NEWS ON THE TRANSGENDER MILITARY EXPLAINED:

    “Transgender wants to enlist. You cannot JOIN in the military if you have any medical conditions that require constant treatment or excessive accommodation. That’s why people with asthma, diabetes, permanent STD’s/STI’s (like HIV), people with cancer or a recurring history of cancer and individuals with physical disabilities can’t serve (except in very rare cases where a specific waiver is granted). Transgender individuals require hormone replacement therapy, they require psychiatric care during the transition, and if they elect to get surgery it can take 2-4 years for them to recover to the point of being eligible to deploy. On top of that, after the surgery, they are at a higher risk of infection for the rest of their life, which complicates any attempt at sending them to the field to train where hygiene isn’t always able to be pristinely maintained or overseas. An overseas deployment also puts the individual at risk because they may not have steady access to their hormone replacement drugs, which leads to withdrawal and hormone imbalances as well as health problems. So, just like diabetics and cancer patients and individuals with physical or mental disabilities, it just isn’t feasible to accommodate these people so that they can serve.”

  49. Porter Lansing

    This OldSarge/Stace Nelson character isn’t smart enough to know what he’s doing but here it is, in a nutshell …
    -One of the most fundamental rules of human psychology: The best way to strengthen a group identity is to threaten it. And one of the most effective ways to do that is to identify an “outgroup” — some other group of people who you can claim are a threat to the safety or values of the majority.
    -If you are a politician, that points to an effective strategy for maintaining public support. First, strengthen your base’s sense of group identity by whipping up a sense of threat from some outgroup — preferably one without much political power. Then convince your base that only you will do what it takes to protect against the danger, subtly or not-so-subtly painting your political opponents as part of the threat. Then sit back, relax and watch your approval ratings climb at the expense of a vulnerable group.
    -Mr. Trump’s ban on transgender members of the armed forces has all the hallmarks of the same strategy. He has identified an outgroup — in this case, transgender people. Transgender service members, the president implied, are a threat to traditional values, the military and national security, but he is here to protect America from that threat. Other Republican politicians have followed that same strategy with legislation targeting transgender people, like the “bathroom ban” in North Carolina. ~ Max Fisher and Amanda Taub

  50. Transvestite: A guy who likes to eat, drink and be Mary.

  51. Sometimes a transvestite is a guy/gal? who likes to eat, drink and serve their country like in most other civilized country’s.

  52. Wow, OldSarg, now just being a jerk for the sake of jerkiness?

    Again, the RAND study found no sign that the argument OldSarg and Trump make to treat transgenderism as a pre-existing condition disqualifying one from military service produces any of the negative effects on military performance that the Trumpists allege.

    Plus, as noted above, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff sees no reason to implement the executive tweet. It’s not about military readiness; it’s about using the military as a political pawn in red-state politics, to encourage guys like OldSarg to come to the polls and vote as if our elections are about sticking it to fags and froot loops (to use the crude language running through their heads) rather than working together democratically to elect skilled leaders to govern intelligently and craft effective policy.

  53. mike from iowa

    Transgender hormonal therapy is/was another service provided by non-judgmental Planned Parenthood.

  54. Miranda Gohn

    OldSarg as someone who was lucky to serve with great people in the 147 Field Artillery SDARNG which when I was in was rated #1 in the nation in what they did including against regular Army units and 49th Armored Division part of the TXARNG the largest Armored Division in the free world during the Cold War with then M60 tanks while Regular Army had the new M1 Abrams. Where are you getting all this info from?

    Much of what you are stating is baloney and some of this is sourced from a wing of the Catholic Church which is biased and plain wrong. Even the Diocese of Sioux Falls is using a blog as a source to try to understand and it was obvious just how much they know very little about it. I am Catholic too. It all depends on the Priest and Diocese on where they stand since it varies.

  55. Miranda Gohn

    Trump’s tweet is just another distraction from the Russia, ethics and other investigations and lawsuits plus what he and his elected enablers including South Dakota’s congressional delegation are attempting to do in Congress right now. We the taxpayers and everyday Americans are being taken for a ride with regulations being dismantled that are there to protect us that took decades to put in place, Healthcare legislation and many other things that are going on they would rather the American public not know about. Corporate and Oligarchy shills that will pander to the religious culture warriors instead of actually serving the interests of just everyday struggling constituents. Expect Trump to ramp up the Culture Wars with more Alt Facts and lies to try to throw the American public off. We cannot normalize this crap! It is so irresponsible and undignified for the offices they hold.

  56. North Korea just shot off a couple more rockets to get the range. Yep, South Dakota is now in range for the bad hair cut dude. Denver and Chicago are as well so we have that going for us, which is a good thing. Unless the guy wants to target Polo because of a bad shirt he once had Dennis Rodman purchase for him, we should be okay. Now, do we really want to start kicking soldiers out of our military, now? For those who are worried about a draft, you should be. Remember, the only time they institute the draft is when there are no more fighters that sign up for the task. Time to hug that transgender trooper, welcome them into the service and hope like hell trump does not kick them or anyone else out.

  57. Transgendered on hormone drugs cannot deploy and the unit with the Transgendered assigned cannot backfill the empty position. So, a unit goes in “one short” and who’s son or daughter will miss the cover, not see the IED, not spot the shooter, not carry the load? Your jobs are “games”. Your jobs you can quit. Your jobs you can let a sub cover your class, run the register, make the fires. You get to go home to your family. Tell you neighbor who has a member serving this Nation you think its more important that someone who is suicidal and doesn’t agree with what is sticking out of their pants that you think that is more important to support transgendered than seeing their child come home. You can cry, whine and spout all the crap you want but you do not serve today. Regardless of what you “think” this isn’t a club. It’s nasty and hard. You couldn’t do it. Most of you couldn’t go an hour sitting with battle rattle on much less walk 100 yards. You don’t understand and refuse to do enough reading to where you do understand. You haven’t even a clue to where a soldier in an M-1, Bradley or MRAP takes a crap! All hat no cows.

  58. Porter Lansing

    OldSarge/Nelson … You used to say the same things about gays in the military. And about women in the military. And you always felt superior to blacks, Latinos and Asians in the military, didn’t you? You see, it’s not about the minorities … it’s something deep down in your psyche. That’s where the hate comes from. It’s some baggage from something your Father said to you, isn’t it? Did he say, “You’re worthless?” and now you need to find someone to hate and show yourself you’re better than those inferior people who don’t belong in USA’s fighting force? Haters follow a pattern, buddy and you’re smack dab in the middle of deviant behavior syndrome. Take it easy with the suicide talk. Things will get better.

  59. mike from iowa

    http://www.rawstory.com/2017/07/conservative-wsj-editorial-board-slams-trumps-transgender-military-tweet-in-blistering-op-ed/

    Tell you neighbor who has a member serving this Nation you think its more important that someone who is suicidal and doesn’t agree with what is sticking out of their pants that you think that is more important to support transgendered than seeing their child come home.

    OldSarg has jumped the shark. Citizens of this nation who have kin serving are undoubtedly a lot more worried about the insane asshat in the WH getting us into another needless war because of his temper tantrums.

    If you ever served, you took an oath to defend the constitution and the rights of every AMERICAN citizen, whether you personally approve of them or not. You seem to have forgotten some stuff along the way to Hatersville.

  60. Miranda Gohn

    OldSarge

    Come on! I am a no bull type of person. This is not a feel sorry for them so we give them a slot kind of thingy. If they cannot do the job in the military and meet the standards they have no business being there. They put the mission and everyone else at risk right? We watch each other’s back and sure as heck do not want to be the weak link.

    They can carry extra hormones with them and if they run out they will survive and not go nuts! They know the risks, are adults and know what they are doing is greater than them alone. If the conditions are one big stink hole you know what? You do with what you have and drive on! It is what they signed up for and know the deal.

    When I was in Reagan was President for most of it and it was a time of mostly peace.

  61. Miranda Gohn

    OldSarge,

    Regarding suicide. The military can exceed in opportunities that the civilian world cannot offer in terms of career opportunities. More than likely you will have highly motivated and professional troopers that are appreciative of the opportunity not offered in the civilian world due to rampant discrimination.

    The suicide rates come primarily from a loss of losing an entire support system and the social stigma from social conservative beating the drums of a phantom menace only perpetuate the problems. They get kicked out of their places of worship which is a source of spiritual strength, lose families and friends and are at high risk of being unemployed and severely underemployed. We can talk about people who do not work, scam the system but you know what really is the kicker? Those who are goal oriented, strong work ethic, high character. faith in God never waivered, will show up to work ready to work not being stoned, drunk, late and not need babysitting but still struggle finding employment. btw! Some of these are combat vets. You know what a tunnel rat is from Vietnam? I had a great conversation with one who was transgendered years ago. Talk about one scary job!

  62. You all talk crap but have no background in this matter. You sit in your ivory towers looking at those of us who serve as the “little people” who are not enlightened as you think you are. You’re a joke, scabs on this country. You are leeches that suck the life of freedom from the nation that gives you the right to spout your unbiased trivial dung. “Oh, being in the serve is easy! Three squares and off to play war!” Face it fools; you do not know of which you speak!

    Portly, MiniMic and Moronda “Waa, Waa, he is teasing us! Make him STOP Cory!!”

  63. Miranda Gohn

    OldSarge,

    Cory knows there are many things we and a few commenters and I disagree on. We are not talking about participation awards here serving in the military. Let’s talk about a few things ok? I am not calling you names nor disrespecting you. I appreciate your service and who knows we may have served together. We may not be that far apart on a few things.

    First of all I am transgendered. Grew up in a family where serving in the military and community was a tradition and my uncle who volunteered for two tours in Vietnam is a hero of mine. A number of relatives of mine served in the military or are still in.

    I wrestled in from Junior high thru high school and the kid I had to wrestle off for varsity whom I graduated with later became an Army Ranger. Wrestling is one of the hardest sports to train and compete in and I ran cross country prior to the season starting. I was never any good at it being distracted with other things than learning the moves but it sure came in handy when I fought a bully. Best shape in my life!

    Took a semester off from Northern and went to basic training at Ft. Leonard Wood, MO in the winter in which I was the only one to not wear thermal underwear being from South Dakota out in the field. Coming from South Dakota and sub zero temps it was like our March. I was the 2nd fastest runner after a guy who ran Cross Country for the U of Wisconsin/ Madison. I could not catch him. The drill Instructors assigned me as a coach for struggling new recruits.

    AIT in Fort Lee, VA where I Quartermasted. Squad leader and did not only pass the PT test but maxed it which they told me I qualified for Airborne School. I really wanted to go to Airborne School for a personal goal but I was in a guard unit and doubt they would need that type of training for either of the units I was in. Ranger School would be cool but I thought I’d be nuts to go for that. Not only physically but mentally demanding and doubt I could do it at the time even if I went full time Army.

    During my time I was encouraged to go full time, Told by NCO’s I’d make a great NCO and encouraged by officers to go thru Officer Candidate School. I went in on my own time to fix the books and get our paperwork in line because I cared and wanted to make sure our unit passed inspections. I approached it as I was a professional Soldier and carried myself that way doing whatever I could to help out and they all did the same for me. It was a great experience! 20 years is nothing to make a career out of it and had things been different I probably would of gone full-time Army.

    We can talk about increasing the standards since I found them to be not that hard and they are evidently weaker than what they were during Vietnam and were even loosened from when I went in January 1985 two years out of HS. Personally I feel more kids need to join the service these days. Many lack the work ethic, structure and discipline.

    I am not in Liberal lala land and never have been nor some bubble ivory tower.

    So do you want to have a real discussion or just bait? Your not hurting my feelings.

  64. Miranda Gohn

    OldSarge,

    Please know I am not minimizing your experience especially if you were deployed and did a tour in a combat zone whether it be Balkens, Iraq or Afghanistan. There was a lot of crap that went on over there that has affected a number of our service people mentally and physically. My Uncle who served in Vietnam is like an older brother to me and I remember when he left and when he came back along with a number of vets and how the war affected them. Our family used to sit around the kitchen table and listen and record cassette tapes to mail back and forth from Vietnam. Seeing the impact of War from Vietnam really affected me going forward.

    My service was easy being in peacetime compared to those who sacrificed for the rest of us when they were full-time, activated or deployed. There is a chance I’d be dealing with other issues now had I re-enlisted and went to the first Gulf War or the other wars and theaters. I am very appreciative of your service.

  65. Porter Lansing

    Thought you said you were in the Air Force?
    “You haven’t even a clue to where a soldier in an M-1, Bradley or MRAP takes a crap!”
    You’d best get your story straight and come back later, as whomever you’re pretending to be on that day.

  66. Darin Larson

    OldSarge, You do a great Colonel Jessup imitation from the film, A Few Good Men. Unfortunately, you are as outdated, bigoted and confused about duty and honor toward your fellow human beings as Colonel Jessup:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopNAI8Pefg

    Time is passing you by and unfortunately, you, like Colonel Jessup, can’t handle the truth.

  67. You still don’t know. You don’t know the simplest thing about Soldiers, Marines, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard or girl scouts but you all profess to be experts on “social rights, money, politics, military and life on general. You will never change and never have. From the beginning you have refused to listen to anyone other than yourselves. Projects and welfare programs that keep the poor poor, the black man and native Americans enslaved in socially designed prisons, burning books, social engineering, LBQT rights, killing babies, socialism is good, russians are bad, it was just 33K emails and a server, open borders, there is no God, safe spaces, Fast&Furious was low level employees, the IRS was doing it’s job and muslims the religion of peace. You are all so wise yet you don’t even know how a soldier poops. . . Such experts, such Kondensending Knowledgeable Know-it-alls. You will never change. You are stupid and will lose. Look at how you are treated: When you speak to others about your views people turn and they walk away wondering what in the F is wrong with that fool and your response? Oh, he’s a racist, confused, a bigot, doesn’t have a clue. But, alas, in this case I don’t turn and walk away. I am calling you out because if you can’t answer the most simple question then you need to STFU: Where the heck do you think a soldiers goes potty?

  68. Porter Lansing

    Soldiers relieve themselves in a latrine unless you’re around. Then they go in your helmet. That’s why you’re a s***head. LOL

  69. mike from iowa

    OLdSarg can quote wingnut talking points verbatim. He has plenty of practice.

    Go live your life in fear from Hatersville, fella. Yer neighbor may be gay and is maybe planning to grope you when you aren’t looking. OMG, the humanity.

  70. Porter Lansing

    Right, Mike. This guy doesn’t pass the smell test. He said he was in the Air Force but wants us to believe he’s been in battle in full battle rattle. What battle has the Air Force been in, on the ground? He’s got an unnatural attraction with how soldiers poop. That’s just creepy. From his posting schedule I’d say he’s some farmer from the center of the state with delusions of military service who, if he was ever in the military, was just a desk jockey in the far east. He deserves to be totally disregarded and highly ignored. Or, he’s Greg Deplorable on meth. The comments and word choices are similar. One of the two.
    Have a good weekend, my friend. :0) He’ll post again around 9:45 am.

  71. That’s right Portly. Portly doesn’t like anyone confronting his bull so you should help him figure out how to not see my meany words. They are hurtful.

    Mikey, I don’t “hate”.

    “Latrine”? how freaking old are you?!!!

  72. Porter Lansing

    You’re not mean. You’re just phony. I’ll send you home crying again today like I’ve done every time you’ve come up against a real liberal like me. You’ve never been in combat. You’ve never been in the military and you’ve never quite gotten over what your Dad did to you. You have sexual identity issues, you’re anal retentive and you’re not sure if you want to see another day. How’s that for a synopsis, l’il fella? Keep posting here, though. It makes Cory money and it makes us laugh.

  73. OldSarg, I assume the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has no background in these matters, either. You’re having a lot of fun shouting your distaste, but you aren’t listening to the experts above you in the chain of military command (I use the term “experts” deliberately to embrace the generals and admirals and ignore draft-dodging Trump.) Are General Dunford, Vice Admiral Burke, and retired Admiral Kirby all ignoring your science and putting America’s military readiness at risk?

  74. Miranda Gohn

    OldSarge,

    What branch or branches of the military did you serve in and when? Where were you deployed and when?

    What was your MOS?

  75. mike from iowa

    Sarg-you do a pretty good impression of a hater for someone who claims he doesn’t hate.

  76. Cory, you would be correct. They have no more background or education on the rates of suicides, mental issues, drug dependency or social anxiety for transgendered than you or I. The generals see the same studies you or I. The stupidity of it all is you should realize that simply because someone is in a specific position of authority does not mean they are especially enlightened. . .

  77. What a load of excrement there OldSarg. It must have taken you 30 years to get that 3rd stripe with your mentality. Here is how it works, generals are educated before they take their commission as lieutenants, or in the medical field, higher ranks like Captains or maybe even a Major. So what that means is that they have lived in the civilian world and then they start their military world. While in that military world, they continue being educated on quite a variety of subjects that include human behavior as they are dealing with their fellow soldiers, both superior as well as subordinates and the allied officer corp. In short, you are full of yourself thinking you are the same as them or as worldly as they are. You are just a three stripper, a buck sergeant that got that promotion for longevity, as you note, not for your mentality.

  78. Oh, thanks Jerry! Gee, glad you’re such an expert on the education of generals.

    I had dinner Thursday night with an Army Brigadier General. He had a bachelors degree in criminal justice. Now Dunford is a different breed altogether. He has a Masters in government. That does make him an expert on metal illness. . .

  79. Miranda Gohn

    OlSarge,

    I address the statements you make and you do not respond but instead ask another or go to another myth put out there by culture warrior extremists. If you were actually in the military and served abroad I appreciate and value your service. My own military experience as posted above later by Cory gave me even more appreciation for those who serve. Otherwise you have no credibility at all in regards to anything you say in regards to those who are Transgendered and their service to the military, don’t know what you are talking about and just repeat falsehoods. If you were sincere you would make more of an attempt to have an honest discussion but you have not demonstrated that.

    Otherwise enjoy your weekend! The weather is great!

  80. You are welcome. He may have had a masters degree in just about anything, but if you ask him, he will also tell you that he had classes in human behavior as well. I cannot imagine a lawyer that does not know how to question someone in depositions and interrogatories without the firsthand knowledge of body language etc. or human behavior. You also have to know human behavior in order to understand how to lead. These generals are combat veterans so they know how to deal with an assortment of cadre that they must instill confidence in. Maybe if you would work on that you may be able to get your rocker instead of being off yours.

  81. BTW, again here is how much money the Department of Defense shells out for the performance of the fellas to remain at attention in the ranks. http://www.militarytimes.com/pay-benefits/military-benefits/health-care/2015/02/13/dod-spends-84m-a-year-on-viagra-similar-meds/

  82. Ah, I’m getting it. When it comes to military policy, I should ignore the generals… or at least any generals who disagree with OldSarg’s prejudices, because surely those disagreeing generals have some fatal flaw on their résumés.

    The nihilist relativism is getting deep here. At not one point has anyone refuted the RAND findings, that transgender soldiers do not erode military readiness and do not impose unbearable financial costs on the military health care system.

  83. That RAND study likely dooms any effort by Trump to kick current transgender soldiers out of the military:

    Before adopting its new policy in 2016, the military subjected the issue to exhaustive review, conferring with medical experts, examining all available data, and studying the experiences of other countries. Based on that extensive investigation, the Department of Defense concluded that permitting transgender soldiers to serve would not be disruptive or costly and would enhance military readiness.

    In light of those conclusions, a sudden reversal of policy based on the President’s tweets would likely elicit careful judicial review. Unlike a policy based on the considered judgment of military officials, such a policy would likely be viewed as reflecting an improper political purpose or animosity toward a disfavored group [Shannon Minter, “Trump’s Tweets on Trans Soldiers Won’t Hold up in Court,” CNN, 2017.07.27].

    You can crack all the anti-trans jokes and recite all the prejudices you want, OldSarg, but when we get down to attacks on the brass, you’ll need to disprove the RAND study, the military’s own detailed analysis and conclusions about the impact of transgender soldiers on military readiness. You haven’t done that yet. No one has, here or elsewhere.

  84. Porter Lansing

    As stated, a wall-to-wall ban on transgender Americans in the armed forces could only be understood as rooted in what constitutional doctrine calls animus: that is, the bare dislike of a group of people. And as the Supreme Court has held in cases going back at least to the 1970s, animus is never a constitutionally valid reason for government action. Probably the most powerful indicator that a complete ban on transgender personnel would be rooted in animus comes from the policy’s enormous breadth.
    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/26/why-trumps-ban-on-transgender-servicepeople-is-flatly-unconstitutional-215423

  85. mike from iowa

    When the latest WHO synopsis of mental disorders gets updated in 2018, transgenderism,or whatever it is now called, will no longer be classified as a mental disorder.

    Then you poor saps will harken back to the past when stuff you disagree with fit more comfortably in your compartmentalized heads. Curse you science. You make life so difficult for bullies and haters.

  86. mike from iowa

    The stupidity of it all is you should realize that simply because someone is in a specific position of authority does not mean they are especially enlightened.

    Good description of Drumpf and every other wingnutpotus in my lifetime.
    Dems, on the other hand, were highly educated and had plenty of experiences across a broad range of the US population.

    Wingnuts were virtually isolated in pockets of pastey white hides.

  87. You are right Mike! On one hand you all worship at the alter of generals and say all kinds of crap about any conservative. You all scream about an illegal being killed by a cop and then support the killing of innocent babies. You swear Trump and the Russians are in bed together and then turn you back to Obama spying on the American people. You can get free healthcare at any hospital but insist on having other people pay for your health insurance.

    It is absolutely incredible, almost to a person you all meet the definition of schizophrenic. Out of touch with reality, disorganized speech and abnormal behavior.

  88. Porter Lansing

    Only a disgraced, dishonored General would even sit at a table with this raving lunatic.

  89. mike from iowa

    Sarg, you sound delusional. Maybe you need some mental help. Free medical care? Where? Worship at the altar of generals? I wouldn’t trust a single one with any relatives of mine.

    My healthcare is Medicare. I paid into Medicare every day of my working life. I pay Medicare premiums every time I get a SS check, No one pays for my healthcare except me, bud. What Medicare doesn’t cover comes out of my pocket by the month-for years on end if need be,

    Kissing the gropenfurher’s ass is not normal behavior.

    There is no comparing the taking of an innocent human life by a police officer and the legal, constitutional right of a female, any female to terminate a pregnancy she does not have to defend her decisions to white, nosy salacious right wing busybodies. Her body/her decision

    Out of touch with reality? Taking healthcare away from millions of people and giving those billions to the wealthiest people in the world is normal?

    Denying legal American citizens their right to vote is normal?

    Denying hourly workers a living wage is normal?.

    Thinking our present potus colluded with a foreign power to get elected is normal?

    Having a potus that lies to all Americans about every subject, every day is normal?

    It is patently obvious which party is out of touch with reality, Sarg.

  90. Roger Cornelius

    It is likely that transgenderism has existed in the military long before anybody made an issue of it or cared.
    I do wonder why OldSarg has such an obsession with transgenderism to the point that he is so emotional about it.
    Why does he commit so much time on a subject he knows nothing about and that makes him so angry?
    With each of his comments he sounds more and more like his hero Trump.

  91. Porter Lansing

    Good one, Roger. He’s a fraud and is exhibiting symptoms of stimulant intoxication. LOL 😂

  92. Roger, here the reason for my fixation: Suicides. Military suicide rates are already 30/100,000 while in the civilian populous it is 14/100,000. That is terrible on its own. Suicides tear units apart. Everyone questions what they could have done, what they missed, why the person did it. I had a troop, fast burner, married father of a little girl walk into New Underwood lake up to his neck and blow his brains out. His name was Scott. Friendly, outgoing. The only thing I could figure that was wrong was he was having a hard time in Trig and then I offered to have my wife help him (math teacher). He just did it. My own brother killed himself. He had three boys. The funeral was filled to capacity. he sent me a text right before he did it. It said “I hope I said enough prayers to get to heaven. Tell mom I’m sorry.” I’m the old guy around here now and I look into these young people’s eyes and see their pain when a buddy kills themselves. I don’t like the look of pain. Just me. It’s a weakness. Transgender suicide rates are 4,600/100,000. Did you read that?! 46% They need mental help more than a uniform and their families don’t need the pain. Maybe we should just call it “compassion for our fellow man”.

  93. Porter Lansing

    Sorry … That’s the suicide ATTEMPT rate. Usually as young teens, spurned and discarded by ignorant bigots. Most go on to live long lives once accepted as functional adults.
    You need to brush up on research skills.

  94. If you are so set on mental help, why don’t you have a little sit down chat with the general and ask him to tell Rounds that we need more funding for the VA in all regards but especially with mental health. Seriously, we do not need the slight of hand crap he is trying to pull by saying that they are going to send a couple of billion into the system all the while pulling it from another part of the VA system. I am talking about new money, not reapportioned money.

    Something else as well, medical marijuana is a proven help for ptsd soldiers. As the general is in the same office as Rounds sometimes is, he can simply put a little memo on this desk to have the balls to support that.

    Sorry about your brother, where did he serve? Are you saying that your brother had gender issues or that he was closeted? If that is the case, I think then we understand.

  95. Jerry, the VA doesn’t fix suicides for active troops. The VA sees veterans. That means they have already left the service. The only medical served the VA provides for active duty members is a 30 day lock up for alcohol and drug use prior to being booted out. I’m specifically talking about the Hot Springs VA. We don’t use the Ft Meade VA for that. They don’t have a secure facility to keep people locked up in.

    My brother Andy was stationed in Europe, Turkey and Texas. He was a good guy. I miss him.

  96. Porter Lansing

    Have y’all noticed how every day this character tries to slide a misleading and misdirecting piece of information by us? Troy does it. Happy Camper does it. Nelson does it. Powers does it. All the SoDak national elected politicians do it. After so many times it’s hard to call them just mistakes anymore. It’s like we’re being lied to.

  97. Then the general could relay all of this onto current higher ups about the need for complete and absolute privacy like the HIPPA provides civilians when service members return home. Service members and significant others, should receive longer leave times to meet with behavior management professionals. This will help identify potential issues for the soldier and their families. This should also be in place for the officer corp as well, make it mandatory.

    Trade some of those faulty crappy F35’s in for something that will actually do some good for our military members, all of them. What a complete pos http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-f-35-14-trillion-dollar-national-disaster-19985

  98. Jerry, I understand your train of thought but you can’t have that level of privacy or mental care when the unit is trusting their lives on you being ready at all times. I do appreciate your concern but it honestly isn’t just a job. At the levels we are manned we can’t afford to lose the ones we have. It takes years to train our soldiers to the level needed to be successful on the battle field today. That training is wasted on those that cannot mentally maintain and when we lose that one the rest are in more danger. I understand that in the outside world you can shut down, reschedule or even cancel but we cannot. Our Nation depends on us and we are committed to being ready. Prost!

  99. Porter Lansing

    So are you still in? Was the story you told about traveling the world in a civilian occupation a story, too?
    As an aside … I hope if someday I tell a tragic story about a family member, my honesty, integrity and the story itself won’t be suspect.

  100. I’ve bee in, out and back in and out. I still work for “the man”.

  101. As far as active duty, here you go, https://www.nami.org/Find-Support/Veterans-and-Active-Duty thanks to the serviceman’s best friend ever, Obama. Both active and veteran owe this man a great deal of gratitude when they graduate schools that were put into place under Obama’s guidance and with much hindrance from the cult.

  102. bearcreekbat

    Old Sarg, please re-read the posts from Miranda Gohn and then respond to Miranda’s question and comments. So far, many of your posts have been childish name-calling and attacking other posters. Miranda treated you with respect, described military experiences and complemented you on yours, yet you have not responded.

    What’s up with you anyway? You say that you are upset by suicides (by the way, your math is off – your figures yield 4.6 %, not 46 %), yet you argue that a specific group of humans should be marginalized even further, without explaining how increased marginalization is going to reduce suicides among these decent people.

    Answer Miranda Gohn.