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Hawks Recognizes Student Debt Hurts Jobs and Growth; GOP Offers Drunk Uncle Distraction

Here’s how the 2016 U.S. House campaign will go. Democratic candidate and State Representative Paula Hawks will make an intelligent observation. The GOP spin blog will then miss the point and play word games to come up with excuses to insult Hawks

Consider Rep. Hawks’s perfectly valid explanation of the hurdle to economic success posed by high student debt:

She says people who graduate with associate’s degrees and bachelor’s degrees shoulder too much debt to find meaningful careers, start businesses or even move out of their parents’ homes.

Hawks says the education debt discussion affects even people who aren’t making student loan payments. She says having graduates encumbered with significant debt hurts South Dakota’s economy.

“Those kids who are choosing not to go to college because they can’t handle the debt or because they can’t secure the loans are stymied in their approach to economic development for themselves, and that slows down the process of economic development for everybody,” Hawks says. “And those kids who are finishing college and are saddled with that debt are not contributing to economic growth in South Dakota, because they can’t buy houses, they can’t buy cars, they can’t pursue their dreams and their ideals and what they hoped for having gone through college and being promised a great job with a great pay” [Kealey Bultena, “Hawks to Introduce Resolution on College Debt,” SDPB Radio, 2015.12.07].

Debt keeps some kids out of college or sandbags some who do go, putting a drag on their personal prosperity and the community’s economic growth. If we could help more students attend college and graduate with less debt, they’d be able to invest more of their adult income in houses, cars, and nest eggs for kids and retirement. Hawks is literally right on the money.

Unable to admit that a Democrat would be correct about anything, GOP spin blogger Pat Powers decides to twist the final participial phrase of Hawks’s overall statement into a Drunk Uncle impersonation:

Drunk Uncle 20151107 NBCWho promised anyone “great jobs?” I mean, seriously?  I had previously known of no one at SDSU when I attended who walked into my classroom and said “Here’s a great job for you, and here’s a great job for you, and so on.”   Clearly, I should have gone to Paula’s classes, because hers came with the magic job fairy who skipped over the political science department [Pat Powers, “Paula Hawks’ Theory of Economics. Why Did Her Classes Get the Magic Job Fairy, and Mine Didn’t?Dakota War College, 2015.12.15].

Powers then throws up [pause… chuckle…] a Bureau of Labor Statistics chart that backs up what pretty much every parent and guidance counselor says to kids about the promise of higher education: go to college, and you’ll have a better chance of getting a job and making more money. That’s the subpoint to the main point Hawks is making: we hold out the promise of more economic opportunity as a reason to go to college. More employers are demanding that applicants present college degrees even for jobs like secretary that didn’t require degrees a generation ago. A college degree is perhaps less of a promise and more of a prerequisite, but whichever p you pick, Paula puts the point perfectly: we can’t sell kids on college with all of these expectations and then throttle their aspirations with debt.

Pat might have picked a better fight by noting that South Dakota already offers students one way to avoid crushing debt: go to a public university instead of a private school. I can’t say that average student debt of over $26,000 is anything to crow about, but the Board of Regents figures show its better than what graduates from Augustana and USF face. Maybe the state should encourage more state enrollment and less student debt by limited the Opportunity Scholarships to public university students.

Whatever university students choose, most pursue higher education at the prompting of a promise, implicit or explicit, that such study will pay off in the future. Student debt crimps that payoff. Hawks is right to tackle student debt.


  1. Don Coyote 2015-12-16 10:52

    Hawks doesn’t explain how the education costs that the students won’t be paying will be paid for. An educated guess is that substantial tab will be picked up by the taxpayer. But in typical “Broken Window” fallacious reasoning, although the students will have more money from less debt for their contribution to economic growth in SD from their purchases of all those houses, cars, dreams, etc, there will be less money for the average taxpayer to spend on their houses, cars, dreams etc due to the increased taxes imposed to pay for the students “free” education.

  2. Bill Dithmer 2015-12-16 10:59

    PP is absolutely right about this.

    The Blindman

  3. Lynn 2015-12-16 11:36

    I agree that Pat Powers is correct on this. There are a number of options to help defray an education for prospective students whether it be college or a tech school. The military is just one option. Nothing is “free” and having that cost of an education will help provide more incentive for those kids to be more serious about their investment into an education and not squander it.

    I can just see some kids going to “free” college for years just partying or taking classes as a hobby with no intention of ever graduating. Otherwise without a cost to them directly it can lose value.

    Kristi Noem will most likely win again in 2016.

  4. bearcreekbat 2015-12-16 11:38

    Don’s argument overlooks the fact that we already enjoy more than enough tax revenues to cover free tuition.

    Free public college tuition would cost $62.6 billion dollars. Meanwhile, Bloomberg reports that adding 100 new bombers to our military will cost $81 billion. What is more important, educating our population or building 100 new bombers. It’s a matter of priorities – we have already paid in the taxes, now we need to decide the best bang for our bucks – kids or killing.

  5. Daniel Buresh 2015-12-16 11:43

    Half the kids in college on grants and subsidized money shouldn’t even be there. There should be a penalty for those who use public funds but never graduate. I’d bet it would apply to a 1/3 of my freshmen class. We have more than enough to send the right kids to college and not everyone should be there. We need to move those people towards trades before they waste 2 years figuring out they shouldn’t be in college. Plus, the fact tuition is based on availability of federal funds only means costs will just continue to rise. There is so much waste in post-secondary education it’s disgraceful.

  6. mike from iowa 2015-12-16 11:44

    Maybe it is the same magic formula that allows wingnuts to cut tax revenues and make debt and deficits magically go away.

    Great jobs,as defined by wingnuts for wingnuts- $174,000 plus benefits for less than two days per week of showing up at the workplace. No education needed.

    For everyone else-less than minimum wage and no benefits is sufficient to keep the koch bros billions growing.

  7. El Rayo X 2015-12-16 11:48

    The list price of a 2016 Ford F-150 is around $26,615. The purchase of the Number 1 selling vehicle in America will give you crushing debt.

  8. Lynn 2015-12-16 11:56


    Good points! Some of those kids go to college because they feel pressured into going and either it’s not the time in their lives with not knowing career wise what they would really like to do, burned out from high school, not mature enough or maybe college is not the right path for them. Other kids go to college purely for social reasons and not educational and a few to find a spouse.

    College is too expensive to be “free”.

  9. mike from iowa 2015-12-16 12:09

    Some of those kids go to schools are funny colors and feel pressured to be there because they aren’t white and smart enough.

  10. jerry 2015-12-16 12:20

    Maybe we should just go to the priests like we did in 1515 for the education. That way just a few could be educated and the rest would be able to toil in the fields picking cotton or picking fly poop out of pepper. The land would be owned by the wealthy, check, got that taken care of already. The people would then flip houses until the bottom falls out of the market and we could all live happily ever after, because we would not know any better.

    These failed students that are being spoken of, who knows what their situations are or were. A lot of the reasons for dropping out is the huge cost of rent and food that must be paid to even consider going to school out of the town you live in. Transportation costs again shred the budget. Getting a part time job could mean that you do not have time to do your studying and you thereby fail. By getting a student loan, you now are on the gift that keeps on giving to the investor class. The education by Wall Street insures that you are always in perpetual debt from the signing of the paper until you finally just die.

    If you think education is expensive, see how much ignorance has cost. I stole that line, more or less.

  11. Troy 2015-12-16 12:28


    Of all the things Hawks has or might say in this campaign, this is may end up be the one you should have just let disappear without bringing attention to it.

  12. Porter Lansing 2015-12-16 12:35

    Bitter, bitter and more bitter. The Democratic Party embraces students and wants to do everything we can to help them lower the crushing debt from higher education … because it’s good for the state and it’s the right thing to do. Hear, hear Ms. Hawks. If you weren’t being on point the “bitter side” wouldn’t say a thing.

  13. jerry 2015-12-16 12:40

    Whenever you hear Troy bitching and moaning about something said on this blog, you know it hits home. There is absolutely no reason why our people should not be educated to the extent of their abilities. This dude here dropped out of college after two years, what a flippin failure.

  14. moses 2015-12-16 12:40

    Porter words again can’t describe a great spokesman you are.I will chip in a hundred bucks if you run against the man who cant miss taking a photo op for the senate.

  15. Lynn 2015-12-16 12:51

    I have a younger relatives who spent a year or two in college one being a very expensive private University and were not quite sure what they wanted to do plus with debt increasing. One went into the Marines and another into the Air Force. It was the best thing they did and now they are focused on what career path they desire, know what is at stake with getting good grades and getting the knowledge to get that good job and are much more mature and responsible.

    The military can be a great option for many that are looking for structure and other opportunities to grow as a person.

  16. bearcreekbat 2015-12-16 12:54

    Perhaps it is understandable why conservatives oppose using public resources to give our young people a college education, and resort to vilifying and negatively stereotyping our young people.

    Here is one point of view:

    The author concludes:

    “It is beyond refute that if the citizens of this country were informed and educated, Republicans would be hard-pressed to get elected as dog-catchers, much less legislators. The assault on public education goes beyond Republican-controlled states as evidenced by congressional Republicans regularly cutting education funding. They, Republicans, know that if the public were educated, they could not demean science as the work of the devil, or claim contraception is abortion, or push the Christian bible as true science. There is a reason so many morons in the conservative movement are certain that god created America, wrote the Constitution, established America’s borders, and installed Christianity as the state religion, and it is simply due to their inability to pick up a history book or the founding document to check Republican claims for veracity.

    Americans are not unintelligent, but a fair proportion of them are dirt stupid; it is the only reason a Republican ever gets elected. What Republicans are doing in the states to education is to maintain an ignorant, superstitious, and uninformed voting bloc as well as prepare the next generation to regularly vote against their own best interests. . . . .”

  17. Steve Hickey 2015-12-16 12:59

    My distain for banks and the FED only grows. A bank can get digital money from the Fed for under a percent and then turn around and lend it to young people for five percent.

    The whole system is whacked. Incredible campuses, six-digit administrative salaries and well-funded sport programs. Yet profs aren’t making much money. I gave my supervisors here gift cards for Christmas because these folks don’t even get a book allowance. My daughter jokes her tuition goes to elaborate landscaping. We need a reset which will be painful.

    The American taxpayer owes the Federal Reserve nothing. It’s a few banking families and is in no way federal. Congress needs to take back the authority to issue our currency. Giving away free college does nothing to fix the fundamental problems. Feels good to talk about it though. The SD legislature will roll their eyes at a resolution like this one.

  18. Troy 2015-12-16 13:04


    If you think I’m clever enough to engage in some type of dissembling or reverse psychology, I’ll take it as a compliment. As a citizen, I’m like a football fan. During the week, I’m hoping to see a competitive game but on game day, I want my team to blow their opponent out. Right now I put the over/under for Hawks electoral support at 30% and this approach inclines me to take the under.

  19. Rorschach 2015-12-16 13:22

    If that’s the odds you’re giving I’ll take the over Troy.

    Your boy John Ellis Bush Bush had the weakest closing argument I’ve ever heard from a presidential candidate last night. The way he hesitated and stammered over why he should be elected was a tell. He doesn’t believe. Not in himself. Not in his campaign. Not that he can win. He just wants to be done and go home.

  20. larry kurtz 2015-12-16 13:36

    “The U.S. war in Iraq has cost $1.7 trillion with an additional $490 billion in benefits owed to war veterans, expenses that could grow to more than $6 trillion over the next four decades counting interest:” Reuters

  21. Rorschach 2015-12-16 13:41

    You could buy a lot of doooobies for that much money, right larry?

  22. Richard Schriever 2015-12-16 13:43

    Don’t pull that trigger so quick re: the private schools Cory. My alma mater – Augie – provides an average of $20,400 in annual non-loan financial aid to its students. 100% of its student body receives some form of need-based, merit-based, or talent-based aid. The difference between full cost of attendance (room, board, tuition) and average non-loan aid is just less to $17,000/year. Many students (like me) do not purchase room and board from the school. Augie is one of the top 20 private schools in the US in re: to non-loan financial aid. Just sayin’ – fact check before stereotyping.

  23. larry kurtz 2015-12-16 13:43

    Mail the bill for student debt to Halliburton.

  24. BIll DIthmer 2015-12-16 13:46

    Here’s an idea, lets do away with both legacies, and affirmative action. If a student passes an interence exam, then depending on their score help them out.

    The Blindman

  25. Porter Lansing 2015-12-16 13:51

    What a compliment, Moses. Are you of the Moses family I knew as a kid?
    -Great post, BCB.
    Our Democratic Party is the party of the positive. The Republic Party is the party of the negative. Education is positive. Keeping young SoDak people “half-educated haybillies” is negative.
    PS … if young Mr. Powers had been pulled aside and counseled that a PoliSci degree held without a likeable personality would lead to bitterness; he may have owned his own welding shop by now.

  26. Richard Schriever 2015-12-16 13:53

    Rorshach – yep, Jebbie is just itching to get his hands on the left-overs of the $100MM in his “campaign” fund. How much did Wild Bill have left in his again – at the end?? Who got that? Not the donors. Just another financial scam.

  27. Rorschach 2015-12-16 14:04

    Yes, Richard. South Dakota law allows candidates and elected officials to pocket whatever is left in their campaign account. Call it “deferred bribery.” Janklow had about $900,000 if I recall. That went into his pocket, though he did have to give the IRS its cut. I don’t believe federal candidates can pocket the money though. I’m surprised that South Dakota still allows “deferred bribery.” There oughta be a law.

  28. larry kurtz 2015-12-16 14:09

    Hawks had better make some kind of noise in Pierre during the session or her candidacy will look a lot like Kurt Evans’ political career.

  29. Roger Elgersma 2015-12-16 14:14

    We would do the next generation more good by paying off the federal debt than by paying for their college. Then they could pay their college loans with money that would otherwise go to taxes to pay interest on the federal debt. We would also have taught them by example that it is worthwhile to pay off debts and reduce the bills their grandparents have been piling on them ever since the stupidity of Reaganomics that thought we could get out of our messes by dumping debt on the grandkids.
    I really do like Sanders except for his free college idea.

  30. Les 2015-12-16 14:44

    If Paula is going to do more than burn oxygen on this election she better call in the pros. Winning elections takes more than winning at the Free Press.

  31. larry kurtz 2015-12-16 16:36


  32. Richard Schriever 2015-12-16 16:50

    Roger – here’s what you “conservatives” just don’t ever seem to be able to understand about “the debt”. Most of it isn’t owed to some “mysterious foreigner. Heck – most of it isn’t owed to anyone at all – it’s just a bunch of INTERDEPARTMENTAL loans (between two different agencies of the Federal Government), I.E., it is MOSTLY the government owing the government. In addition, most of the rest of it is owed to regular old Joe on the street bond holders. What you are proposing in “paying off the debt” won’t do a damned thing to stimulate the economy. NOTHING.

  33. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-16 17:03

    Don Coyote, even though you’re still full of crap, you’re at least full of more substantive crap than Powers, who doesn’t even get to the policy point. You’re still reducing a specific policy issue to your tired conservative abstractions, but I’ll bite.

    The Bastiatian effects Don C dreams up are bogus. In the short term, a progressive tax system can redistribute wealth from well-established high-income folks better able to absorb the tax costs of subsidizing college with less impact on their well-being and GDP-stoking consumption. Following Hawks’s explanation, those young college-goers then get through college with less debt and get to stoking the GDP with their own increased earning power and consumption sooner.

    Think of it as real trickle-down fiscal policy, Don C, where instead of transferring wealth up the ladder and hoping magic makes it trickle back down, we do the trickling ourselves to benefit those in need directly.

  34. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-16 17:11

    Thinking about bearcreekbat’s excellent response about available revenue and priorities plus the anti-youth sentiment expressed by Lynn and Daniel (darned lazy college kids!) gets me wondering which would bother Eisenhower more: handing more cash to the military-industrial complex or redistributing it to the slacker-beer complex?

  35. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-16 17:17

    Troy, it seems that Team Hawks and I are willing to take the same chance.

    Roger E, Steve, you didn’t read the entire statement. Hawks did say “…free college…” but there was an important word attached to -free. From the same interview quoted above:

    Debt-free college does not mean a free pass for everybody. It does not mean that everybody goes to college for free. What it means is that we make it more accessible for everybody, regardless of where they come from or who they are. We give them an opportunity [Hawks, in Bultena, 2015.12.07].

    A number of you trying to slag Hawks are arguing against an idea that she explicitly said she is not talking about. Read first, then argue, please.

  36. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-16 17:22

    Daniel, I will agree (and I think I’ve agreed with you before on this point) that university is not for everyone. But check out the penultimate link in my post: if more employers are requiring applicants to present college degrees just to get an interview for jobs like secretary, how can we shut the university door on all those workers who need that permission slip to qualify for a growing number of jobs? We can sit back and say X% of students aren’t university material, but if employers don’t play along and stop inflating job reqs, we box even more young people out of economic opportunity.

  37. Lynn 2015-12-16 17:23


    Your sidekick injected “Cannabis!” into this thread. Where does it fit into the “free college” pie in the sky pitch?

  38. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-16 17:25

    Mike, good Frontline article about for-profit schools! Part of protecting students from debt and cutting costs for taxpayers is limiting student loans to non-profit schools.

  39. Lynn 2015-12-16 17:29

    I’d have to agree with an earlier comment and maybe the market will make a correction on this but with increasing tuition we have funding for all these new Stadiums, luxury suites, and all these costly amenities at universities and colleges. Perhaps some colleges will market themselves as to not playing that game and will be no nonsense just keep a focus on academics, excellent faculty which are compensated well, basic and frugal facilities like many colleges used to have and if there is a sports team it is NCAA Div 3 or NAIA and there to add to the experience and no scholarships for athletics.

  40. larry kurtz 2015-12-16 17:34

    Rohr injected it. i choose a pipa.

  41. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-16 17:38

    Richard, with no disrespect to the quality of your private education, I’m not stereotyping. Click the link on my statement about public versus private: students at our private campuses graduate with 41% more debt than Regental campus grads.

    By the way, I don’t think Hawks’s children are college age yet, but the Noem family, with two federally-supported incomes, have sent two daughters to USF

  42. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-16 17:49

    Lynn, the schools will tell you all that money for stadiums and sports expansion comes from alumni and private donors, not from the students. They’ll tell you all the attention and money sports builds spills over into support for other programs that keep costs down for students. Even Presentation College here in Aberdeen is buying into this thinking, with the convent dwarfed by a big inflatable winter dome for sheltered sports practices for all the imported athletes. Why people can’t just support education straight up without getting football and basketball games to watch eludes me.

    But yes, if we can find a way to get all those private donors to stop building stadiums and transfer all that mad money to academic programs and tuition breaks, I’m all for it.

    Meanwhile, our current Congresswoman spends a lot of time watching sports. Maybe we should help her along to her next career in sportscasting.

  43. Les 2015-12-16 18:15

    Obviously, Hawks has already lost this election.

    If she truly believes in her education plank and carries it for her campaign hi point, it should have been worked into a consensus at least amongst her own party members before the campaign began.

    For a victory, Paula needs 15-20% of those out of party votes being taken to the woodshed here.

    You need a new team, Paula.

  44. larry kurtz 2015-12-16 18:31

    Amen, Les.

  45. Lynn 2015-12-16 18:44

    Who is running for Paula Hawks legislative seat? She could just drop from the US House race and just run for re-election for her legislative seat.

  46. jerry 2015-12-16 19:11

    Cory posted this clarification on how many do not understand basic English. For them, the written word is to painful to read so they make crap up. Here is what she said ”

    “Debt-free college does not mean a free pass for everybody. It does not mean that everybody goes to college for free. What it means is that we make it more accessible for everybody, regardless of where they come from or who they are. We give them an opportunity [Hawks, in Bultena, 2015.12.07].

    I will not argue about if she needs a new team or not, but I will say that Paula Hawks has said nothing that I do not feel about our people’s education. I am pretty sure the rest of you feel the same way if your would bother to read what she actually said. What in this statement is so unnerving to the naysayers? Is it just because she is a Democrat that actually makes a very intelligent statement or is it because of something else? Maybe the broken heart of not seeing Joe Lowe in her spot…

  47. larry kurtz 2015-12-16 19:14

    Lynn seems to have answers for the South Dakota electorate but don’t expect to see that hat in the ring any time soon.

  48. larry kurtz 2015-12-16 19:20

    The good news? Noem is vulnerable.

  49. larry kurtz 2015-12-16 19:26

    If Hawks is serious we will hear it or we won’t.

  50. Lynn 2015-12-16 19:28

    Hear what? Radio?

  51. grudznick 2015-12-16 19:42

    Ms. Noem may be a vulnerable young woman, but not for Ms. Hawks.

  52. Porter Lansing 2015-12-16 20:14

    What are you selling, Les? And, who are you selling it for? I know a pitch when it goes by.

  53. Roger Elgersma 2015-12-16 22:08

    Richard, I am not a conservative. On a couple of issues I am. You are delusional if you think that there is no debt to anyone but our selves you have forgotten what we owe China. But what we owe ourselves is significant since if we do not pay back Social Security then there will come a day when we do not get Social Security checks. That is not just a paper shuffle.
    Cory, I do believe that those who are very smart and not rich should get much more help in college. But not free.

  54. jerry 2015-12-16 23:09

    Hawks shows leadership with her statement that is not even bold, but it is truthful.

    When politicians and especially democrats finally show recognition of what the meltdown has done to our people, it is refreshing. Now what will be truly mind blowing is when Hillary Clinton finally has a come to Jesus moment and declares that eliminating Glass-Steagall was a huge mistake her husband put us through.

  55. Rorschach 2015-12-16 23:32

    Paula Hawks knows what she’s talking about. She went to college and graduated – with debt – and took a job as a teacher. Then while working she went back to school part time and earned a masters degree.

    Her opponent?

    Kristi Noem went to college for a couple of years. Partied. Picked up traffic tickets then skipped court forcing the sheriff to round her up on warrants. Dropped out when the million dollar inheritance came through. After getting elected to congress was handed a degree without having to work for it.

    Yeah, one of these candidates knows a little something about trying to pay off student loans and start a family on low wages. The other one doesn’t know anything about it and doesn’t care.

  56. Les 2015-12-16 23:40

    That wasn’t just limp dick’s signature on the repeal. It was possibly the largest assembly of liars and thieves who put that legislation together compromising both parties and of course the large banks.

    Gramm from Tx and then names like Summers, Greenspan, Rubin with banks merging before the repeal knowing they had a two year window loophole while this bought and paid for legislation worked its way through the system.

    Names like Brooksley Born head of the cftc who was witch hunted over her effort to derail the the imminent destruction of our financial system. Byron Dorgan who pounded his fist almost hollering how bad this legislation was and the affects it would have. Names seldom acknowledged for their honest efforts.

    Similarly all the guilty parties walk the streets without acknowledgement, free men and women who may have destroyed a generation if we are lucky the loss could be so small.

    Hawks needs to get in it to win it and all this junk ain’t init. Boomers vote to, Jer.

  57. leslie 2015-12-16 23:55

    brooksley is great, dorgan is a pro w/ bad hair! i don’t read the hill for the non-news u posted les (though ms. noem seems to be using her dau to get some after-congress action going that won’t require much more leadership than this job, but i do feel the same as your 2d to last sent.

  58. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-17 08:37

    Les, you say Hawks will lose Dem votes because of disagreement on student debt relief. But you can’t view that policy position’s impact in a vacuum or one blog comment section. View it in the context of the full choice voters have. We have not established what percentage of the Democratic base would oppose a plan to lower student debt and make college more affordable. More importantly, we have not established what percentage of that percentage would view this issue as a dealbreaker and choose to re-elect Kristi Noem.

  59. Troy 2015-12-17 09:52

    I was vocally against Gramm-Leach when it was being considered and have advocated its repeal for at least 15 years. However, the assertion it is somehow a Republican bill is totally false.

    The final bill passed the Senate and House receiving a majority of Senate Democrats and Senate Republicans and passed the House with a majority of House Democrats and House Republicans and was signed into law by Bill Clinton.

    Repeal is also opposed by a majority of members of both parties in both houses and President Obama. While there is significant different reasons for repeal opposition on both sides of the aisle, as an opponent of Gramm-Leach and supporter for Glass-Steagal, I recognize the short-term consequences of repeal is very real and requires a thoughtful approach to unwind the consequences of Gramm-Leach without pushing us into a recession/financial meltdown.

    My guess to prudently unwind Gramm-Leach would take at least five years and maybe ten years. Sometimes when government makes a change in law, they create a monster it is hard to kill and takes diligence politicians (of both parties) don’t want to tackle. In addition to the diligence and the long-term gradual implementation of reform, Liberals oppose repeal because they won’t accept any adjustments to Dodd-Frank (which was designed for a post-Gramm-Leach world) and conservatives oppose repeal because it will dry up financing for small business from community banks without Dodd-Frank reform. So, we are at a stalemate.

  60. jerry 2015-12-17 10:11

    Troy, this pos could be revoked and put into place in one session without any disruption at all in any sector except American taxpayers. When this pos is undone, taxpayers will be able to look at our long term bond structure with much more confidence and so will the rest of the world. Gramm-Leach-Biley was the reason for the financial meltdown because it replaced Glass-Steagall and it will be the reason for the next meltdown that will come more sooner than later.

    Democrats went along with their president and voted for this pos. There was one notable exception and that was Senator Byron Dorgan of North Dakota. You have to admire North Dakota as being the only state in this union that did not suffer banking meltdowns as they have State banks that are still doing business, for the most part, like they did before and after the Great Depression.

  61. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 10:14

    @TroyJones…You have little to no validity asserting that liberals don’t want to repeal glibba because we don’t want any adjustments to Dodd-Frank. Capital requirements for big insurance companies have already been eased and more adjustments are coming.
    -A market system in which government regulates the economy is best. Government must protect citizens from the greed of big business. Unlike the greedy and selfish private sector, the government is motivated by public interest. Government regulation in all areas of the economy is needed to level the playing field.

  62. Richard Schriever 2015-12-17 10:43

    Roger – China holds 8% of US debt. Japan actually holds about the same as China. Meanwhile 44% is owed internally – to other governmental agencies. Individual US citizens + “funds” hold approx. 23%. THE SS “problem” is actually very simple to solve – remove the contribution cap – solved for eternity.

  63. Troy 2015-12-17 10:47


    If you think we could do this with a simple bill and it have no short-term consequences in the financial markets from top to bottom affecting access to capital for home loans, car loans, small employers big employers as well as pension funds/retirement plans, you are naive. People on both sides of the aisle (member of Congress and think tanks) who are serious about repeal know it has to be gradual and comprehensive to avoid serious short-term consequences. Gramm-Leach created a monster that can’t be killed easily.

    Porter, yes there are liberals (and conservatives) who are on record for repeal but too often their specific proposals are too simplistic to ever pass. Further, a return to a pre-Gramm-Leach world isn’t a world without regulation. But, it is one which has significantly different regulation than that designed for a post-Gramm-leach world. Further, the assertion opposition (or reluctance to adopt the simplistic proposals) is about greed distracts from a solution.

    By the way, easing capital requirements (for diversified Gramm-Leach advantaged financial institutions) is actually an accommodation to the post-Gramm-Leach world and compensate with the onerous, counter-productive aspects of Dodd-Frank. Why do you think Home Federal just merged with Great Western? At its core, they couldn’t operate under the constraints of Dodd-Frank.

    With a return to separation of various financial products (which is the fundamental principle of Glass-Steagal), we will be able to have capital requirements appropriate for each segment of the financial industry (many of which need to be increased). Instead, we have an aggregated capital requirements which actually add risk to the entire system AND have the effect of enhancing the competitive advantage of the money center banks to the detriment of community banks.

  64. larry kurtz 2015-12-17 10:53

    $6 trillion for at least one Republican war and troy has delusions about why America is broke(n).

  65. Richard Schriever 2015-12-17 10:53

    BTW Roger – China isn’t exactly flush with capital itself. They have approx. $5T in debt of their own. Who do you suppose holds those bonds???

  66. Bill Fleming 2015-12-17 10:54

    Troy’s a good teacher on this topic.

  67. Les 2015-12-17 11:15

    How long will it take to unwind our negative interest scenario and get back to realistic numbers, Troy? Also how long will it take to unwind the derivatives held by the five or so largest US banks? That in itself deals with trillions that could melt with any small catastrophe. Think Greece.

    This was all allowed by the repeal, not?

  68. Les 2015-12-17 11:43

    I say Hawks will lose from the 15-20% pubs and indies she needs if the Dems cannot provide a united well thought out campaign plank and strategy, Cory.

    Attack Noem if you wish but broad brush GOP attacks drive potential voters away.

    You need every one of those outside votes and the negativity here isn’t in it to win it.

  69. Troy 2015-12-17 11:48


    Your first question gets to the heart with regard to how Gramm-Leach/Dodd-Frank create to many incentives (many unintended) that aggregate capital in commercial banks vs. investment/merchant banks. Commercial banks have too much capital yet are restricted in how they can deploy that capital dampening rates and poorly allocating capital.

    Your second question gets to the heart in why you can’t just pass Glass-Steagal without other changes in regulation (mostly at Dodd-Frank) because it will stimulate capital deficiency/risk and failure metrics at big banks.

    You Greece reference is appropriate with regard to the unintended interlocking of the financial markets because of Gramm-Leach and Dodd-Frank.

  70. jerry 2015-12-17 11:49

    Troy, From December 1941 to September 1945, we defeated two adversaries on either side of us in less than 5 years. You cannot be serious if you think that with Gramm-Leach to be repealed and Glass-Steagall reinstated will take a decade, then you clearly are in the dark of what our capabilities are. I would guarantee that your retirement would not be harmed and instead would be stable like it was before 1999. Home loans, car loans, business loans all could be done exactly like they were done from 1933 to 1999 by lending institutions and not by derivatives through hedge funds.
    What you are saying I think is that the banking hedge fund lobbyists have taken over our political system to the point that we are all now working for them. I am fine with the debt incurred by a legitimate loan but am not comfortable as a citizen to loans that are cut and diced into so many parts that it is unclear who the owner of the loan actually is. What we saw in 2008 is how Gramm-Leach does not work and what we see in Dodd-Frank is just a band aid that will not fully take care of the tsunami of destruction this next failure will bring.

    So where does the student debt come into all of this? By setting our sights on the repair of the financial system that clearly does not work and utilizing the the things that would work. In particular would be the education system from the bottom up. Pay educators the professional pay we should be demanding from them. The educators can then assess the students they are teaching into the fields that they are more likely to follow as there future jobs. When the students take there SAT’s, as an example, those grades should be used to determine the extent of taxpayer involvement for at least the first two years of higher learning. If the student progresses then they should be reevaluated for further funding. If the student wants to strike out on there own, then they could fund their education on there own through whatever means available. Where would the money come from? By the replacement of the failures and reinstating Glass-Steagall.

  71. Troy 2015-12-17 11:55

    P.S. With regard to your second question, to expect big banks to retrench to a Glass-Steagal world with a stroke of the pen is the heart of why their will be financial consequences that are unpalatible. It has to be implemented gradually which allows an orderly break-up/liquidation of assets. Think about drowning a local home market with 100 homes vs. them coming on the market gradually.

    One more thing: You asked a time question. I don’t know how long it will take but a lot of smart people think unwinding the “monster” might take up to ten years. Just as predictions of things happening quickly are usually wrong and it takes more time, I think the actual results will be shorter. But in both cases, prudence is to hope for the best and plan for the worst. We can’t do this imprudently. We do this imprudently and the impact on the poor will be devastating.

  72. Les 2015-12-17 12:07

    In regard to quickly blowing up interest rates, remember our national debt and the cost to the taxpayer on just quarter points. Yes I do believe we could initiate world war 4 and release all debt and try and retake all property.

  73. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-17 12:11

    Les, how do I take the hit for negativity? I point out the good idea Hawks is talking about. I debunk the gratuitous negativity the GOP throws by not listening to what Hawks actually said. Hawks invites people to talk about how to make college more affordable. Lots of those middle-road voters are laboring under the problem she’s talking about, and they’d like to hear a solution. If Hawks advances a solution and Noem doesn’t, Hawks takes more middle-road votes by leading this conversation than she loses.

  74. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 12:15

    @Troy … In order.
    1. You admit you were wrong and I called you on it.
    2. A return to Glass-Steagal would be a world with “much needed” regulation. Your industry, when unregulated, drove USA economy into the ditch and only a thinking and informed President Obama could pull it out…and he did.
    3. My assertion that Republicans are greedy unless liberals “ride herd” on them with non-onerous regulations IS the solution. The only distractions on this thread are your long-winded and diversionary attempts to misdirect this point. Your side is selfish, greedy and can’t be trusted again with an unregulated marketplace.

  75. Troy 2015-12-17 12:40


    1) I was referencing the liberals who oppose a return to a pre-Gramm Leach world. Not all liberals.
    2) I support returning to a pre-Gramm-Leach world. I just acknowledge it is more complex than just railing against Gramm-Leach. Further, a majority of Democrats in both the House and Senate supported Gramm-Leach. Finally, it wasn’t just a lack of regulation that caused the financial meltdown but bad regulation. Gramm-Leach replaced a division of financial products with a myriad of regulation which concentrated financial assets and accommodated unwise inter-locking of interests.
    3) I acknowledge your belief you are of superior intelligence and motives than everyone who disagrees with you. If I am too long-winded and complex for you, I acknowledge that too.

  76. Bill Fleming 2015-12-17 12:50

    Porter, what’s the best way to do the Christmas turkey? Spatchcock and brine, or deep fat fried? Stuffing in, or out of bird? Does free range really make a dif? (I’ll trust your answers on these. Economics, not so much. That’s what we have Troy for. ;-)

    p.s. Every goose I’ve ever tried to cook has been a dismal failure. I’ve given up on it.

  77. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 12:51

    Your commentary seems a bit misdirecting and your involvement in the EB-5 issue seems suspicious. How much of Joop Bollen’s and/or SDRC’s money are you holding for investment or is currently being invested?

  78. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 12:56

    Mr. Fleming,
    My chef mentor had a saying, “Don’t f**K with Christmas or Thanksgiving. Your guests have expectations and don’t want to experience you showing off.” Put the bird in an oven bag and cook it until the little thingy pops up. Like a pheasant a turkey isn’t high on the culinary scale for flavor or tenderness. Brine if you want at equal parts salt and sugar boiled in a few gallons of water. Cover the turkey in a big vessel with ice and pour the boiling mixture over it. Brine at least 24 hours, refrigerated.
    Macerate a goose for 24 hours in Italian dressing. Wipe dry and roast. Tame are better than wild.

  79. Bill Fleming 2015-12-17 12:58

    Outstanding Porter. Thank you, sir!

  80. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 13:00

    PS … It’s only stuffing if it’s stuffed. lol I stuff as much as will fit and make a bunch of dressing in a crock pot. It’s one of the only tools that doesn’t get used much on holidays.

  81. Bill Fleming 2015-12-17 13:31

    We got in deep doodoo this Thanksgiving for stuffing the bird. The gluten-free-ers weren’t buying it that they could just eat the parts that didn’t touch the stuffing. I didn’t believe them until I looked it up and found out they were right. Looks like no more bread stuffing at our house. Just dressing. Crock pot sounds like a good way to go. Thanks again Master Porter.

  82. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 14:33

    You’re welcome, Mr. Fleming. I don’t cook for strangers much anymore since I retired and answering questions is fun. I’ve just finished a three year course in food photography so I can include photos in my next culinary crime novel. “The Dakota Farmboy Cookbook” ©2006 has a hundred of my recipes and many are for wild game. It’s a bit technical and almost totally out of print but if you know what a spatchcock is you must enjoy cooking. Merry Christmas to you and the family and friends. :)

  83. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 14:34

    PS … I studied business at Vermillion before I got drafted so I do have enough knowledge to know a Troy Jones snowjob when it blows by. lol

  84. Bill Fleming 2015-12-17 15:12

    Would love to read your new book, Porter, and will do my best to find your old one.

    Merry Christmas to you and yours as well.

    p.s. I’ve had a lot of discussions with Troy on various subjects and we take turns “schooling each other” on various matters. (And yes, neither of us are above running a smokescreen from time to time, just for the political hell of it.)

    That said, in my experience, he’s usually right as rain on matters financial, most likely because it’s his profession, he has a real passion for it, and a fiduciary obligation to his clients to know his stuff down cold. It would be bad for his brand to be wrong about that stuff, just as it would for mine to give bad advice about typography.

    I’ve found that nothing steels one’s resolve to learn one’s craft like the opportunity to profit combined with the possibility of professional derision an disgrace.

    Long and short of it is that I have always found his explanations of high finance to be accurate and useful regardless of his politics, and his analysis of political polls astute to the degree that I refuse to wager with him anymore, having been bested more times than I care to admit and/or can afford. ;-)

  85. Bill Fleming 2015-12-17 15:28

    p.p.s found your cookbook on Amazon, Porter. Like new, $26+. You’re right, not many left. Mine’s on the way. Looks fun.

  86. Les 2015-12-17 15:51

    It isn’t about your presentation, Cory, but maybe it is.

    Possibly you can lead in a way that puts the attack on the candidates and not so much on the party. That is if you want those 15-20% votes you need out of party to win any election.

    On average most any major party candidate will pull without much effort over 30%, outside of a fractured primary with multiple candidates. Get your party out to vote and forget about the other 49%. Go get a solid 15-20 points and you’re in it to win it.

  87. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-17 15:51

    And bingo! Once again, Dakota Free Press promotes economic development (for Porter) and good eating (for Bill F.).

    I see no reason to suspect Troy of involvement in the EB-5 scandal. I’ve seen no sign of him nor his firm in any of the documents I’ve read on the case. Like Bill, I respect Troy’s knowledge of the financial world and appreciate his willingness to occasionally share that knowledge with us despite the hard scrutiny and occasional insult to which we subject him here. That’s why I give liberty to this discussion of financial regulation under a post about Hawks and college debt (and Jerry! brilliant effort at bringing the discussion full circle back to the topic!).

    Say, did I miss the part where Troy explained how Hawks loses any votes by invoking the problem of student debt and inviting folks to discuss a solution?

  88. caheidelberger Post author | 2015-12-17 15:59

    Paula Hawks will work on that, Les. If I can help her, I will. And I’m telling her here that student debt is a good issue to talk about, one that transcends party lines and speaks to people’s pocketbooks, experience, and love of their kids.

  89. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 16:04

    I’m not accusing Mr. Jones of any crime. It’s not a counsellors business where money comes from and Mr. Bollen’s not been charged with a crime. Many forget the EB-5 scandal is ethics based not criminal based as the professor at Northern said. I know Jones can’t reveal info about his clients. But, somebody knows where the missing millions went and why one blogger needed to wipe his servers over and over.

  90. Bill Fleming 2015-12-17 16:35

    A while back Troy wrote to me privately (…yes Porter, Troy and I know each other and sometimes talk behind the scenes about stuff. Long story, but we go way back and were political adversaries long before we ever met one another personally) :

    TJ: “I’ve never had a direct, indirect or any other business or personal interest or activity associated with SDRC, Bollen, or any entity they have invested in. Further, 100% of my comments has been my assessment of publicly available information and have never had a conversation with anyone that would give me information or perspective from an insider. Neither have I defended any nefarious acts or people who committed anything nefarious or think such people shouldn’t be held accountable.”

    I believe him 100%. You should too, Porter. If Troy knew anything or was connected in any way, he wouldn’t ever say anything. Period. That’s how it goes with the pros.

  91. mike from iowa 2015-12-17 16:46

    Porter-for your next culinary crime novel,I hope it involves plenty of turkey-two legged humans as well as birds and I hope the bad guys choke on it. (Not because your cooking is bad)

  92. mike from iowa 2015-12-17 16:47

    Spike-where you at,fella? Got something from a friend from Alaska for you to look at in case you haven’t seen this.

  93. leslie 2015-12-17 17:09

    jeez, flemming…the pros are daugaard and rounds and their minions, and troy apologizes for the pros all day long, as a republican, doesn’t he? who did he vote for, weiland, wismer and jackley?

    forgive my popping off

  94. Bill Fleming 2015-12-17 17:20

    leslie, pretty sure Troy didn’t vote for my buddy Rick Weiland or for Wismer either. I’m not saying he isn’t Republican or a political animal, I’m just saying I believe him when he says he doesn’t have any involvement with SDRC or any of the deals they worked on.

  95. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 17:33

    When did he say that? Jones is continually trying to spin the “free market w/out regulation myth” in the face of the economic meltdown it created and Pres. Obama cured. If no one with education in the subject calls him down, someone might believe it. And when has he called for Gramm-Leach to be repealed? It would have a minimal effect if done immediately (not giving banks another ten years of plunder) and the risk of another bubble would be gone also. Jones opinion needs to be filtered through his business which is taking from the poor and selling to the rich through the Koch Bros. funded legislation favored by Noem, Rounds and Thune.

  96. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 17:35

    @Mike … You can’t spin a tale without a few juicy antagonists. Anyone on this blog fit that description?

  97. Bill Fleming 2015-12-17 17:40

    I’m done talking about Troy on this thread. Cory’s already overindulged me.

    Thanks Cory. Later, Porter. Thanks again for the cooking tips.

    p.s. As far as Gramm-Leach goes, Porter, it looks to me like you and Jones are making almost exactly the same argument. See how much I know about it? ;-)

  98. Porter Lansing 2015-12-17 19:02

    Yeah, I see. :)

  99. Spike 2015-12-18 09:25

    Mike from Iowa,

    Sorry Mike, but I gotta say, there are some wonderful wonderful activities going on on the black hills right now that have pre-empted my commenting. .. high school basketball with a 30 second clock is too much fun people. Maybe Cory can run a post with a time clock! Getting some of these people with achy bones running up n down the court would be healthy for us all…. wouldn’t Porter driving the baseline with Troy waiting to take him out be worth the price of admission? While Kurtz sandbags out on the 3 point line in his retro Chuck Taylor’s looking good for the tv cameras.

    Oh….EB-5 has set that clock off on here before as has Mud central.
    I take it back some people on here can run pretty good…now sharing the ball. That’s another story….

    There is so much more that just basketball in Rapid City right now..all kinds of wonderful conferences, booths, contests and shows. To be gladly and openly shared with our non native neighbors. Please stop by.

    On point with college debt. The tribal colleges are meeting here also, I believe there are 36 across the country. .making one of the greatest positive impacts there is. But Daugaard wouldn’t help them.

    There is a booth sponsored by the American Indian College Fund, which resides in Denver a fantastic organization that provides scholarships to native students across the country. Their President and CEO is Cheryl Crazy Bull, a Rosebud tribal member. She is a talented and special person, a joy to hear talk and a real advocate for education. Also listened to Lionel Bordeaux, president of Sinte Gleska University on Rosebud, a good man, father of Shawn Bordeaux, stare legislatior from Mission. Native people struggle with college tuition like everyone else.

    I’m with Cory, I believe this problem crosses party lines onto the kitchen table of everyone in South Dakota. It’s a real issue not just a political platform. I did not see “free” in Corys article either..but wow some of our friends sure did. Ms. Hawks is a bright friendly person who could find the right points and challenge Noem IF the party”leaders” knew what the heck they were doing.

    In case some of you don’t know..Custer high school is a great part of the LNI tradition. They come and join us. Now THATS reconciliation.

    Peace to all

  100. mike from iowa 2015-12-18 09:59

    My apologies,Spike. I forgot about all the happenings going on in Rapid City and you don’t need to apologize for being busy. Hope you had a good time. My friend from Alaska sent me this-

    You may have seen it already. My friend is an Alaska Native,quite active in Native rights and the Democrat party. She was born on one of them islands with them big freakin’ bears that eat people like me.

  101. mike from iowa 2015-12-18 10:07

    Troy-G-L-B was passed in a majority wingnut controlled house and senate and signed by a sitting potus under threat of impeachment who was surely trying to appease his haters.

    Porter-how does one get a goose to do the Macarena?

  102. jerry 2015-12-18 10:08

    Spike, good to hear that you are enjoying the games. Here is something to read that is on your point to all potential students.
    The owners of the place do not want educated success stories from the poor and especially, for folks of color. They want places that will educate the elite (we know who they are) and to hell with the rest. What Hawks has said is basic progressive speak that should transcend both parties as it relates to parents and the possibilities for their children. The last thing the owners want to do is to help fund competition against their own. One day we are going to come to the realization that in order to un-stack the deck, we better hang in there together to make sure of our own destiny for our students. That day will come when barnacles like NOem are scraped from the hull to be replaced with smother sailing on the wings of Hawks.

  103. mike from iowa 2015-12-18 10:10

    Phil Gramm was a Democrat congressweasel until 1982 when he jumped ship to the dark side and was elected as a wingnut congressweasel for one term and then as a wingnutweasel senator.

  104. Porter Lansing 2015-12-18 11:05

    Good one, Spike. *Let’s Support the American Indian College Fund this Christmas
    @MFI … tequila helps get ‘er dancin’
    Excellent, Jerry … I like that. “owner’s of the place” You have a knack for getting to the essence. Conservative white people in SoDak view minority relations as a sport or contest. There’s not enough equality for all and if the NDN’s get some that’s less the white’s get? Really? The conservative lack of self-esteem is kinda’ pathetic, really. – perfect, Jerry ✯✯✯✯✯

  105. Troy 2015-12-18 12:28

    8 US Senators who opposed GLB: Boxer (D-CA), Bryan (D-NV), Dorgan (D-ND), Feingold (D-WI), Harkin (D-IA), Mikulski (D-MD), Wellstone (D-MN), & Shelby (R-AL).

    38 Senate Democrats supported GLB, including Johnson and Daschle.

    52 Senate Republicans supported GLB.

    Blaming solely the Republicans for this fiasco is patently false. This was a joint disaster.

  106. Spike 2015-12-18 12:33

    Thanks Mike, Mr. Trudell was an amazing person.

    I actually worked in Alaska and had some great experiences. Bears do not hesitate to eat people if circumstances present themselves. I met a native that hunted polar bears. I will never forget what he told me….”it’s easy to hunt polar bears…they hunt you.”

    Jerry, I second Porters motion on you getting the door prize “owners of the place” ..geez. Harsh reality. Taze me 28 times bro. It’s my fault.

    Lynn comments about some young people wasting time in college definitely is one sided… but she confuses me.. Al Franken backer to SD GOP backer?

    Maybe some of those dropping out were not given an adequate education in high school to transition to college. Dorms are a wierd place for many also. N I know some guys that try college n would rather work n earn money than hand it to a college that sometimes moves too slow for them. I call them “hard working SD boys” I never judge college drop outs…too many go back later with more focus and maturity and succeed.
    Western Area Vo Tech answers many needs for training and education. Our technical schools rock out. The graduates from there are great South Dakotans. The PowerLinemen working this last week in dangerous conditions to make us safe and comfortable are great examples. Running a snowplow isn’t for the weak either. We all know many others.

  107. jerry 2015-12-18 13:35

    Troy, Shelby (banker-AL) controls the banking committee these days and he is gonna sit on his fat arse and watch Dodd-Frank die on the vine to be just another toothless tough sounding name. I wonder why you forgot to mention that little detail on what would be added to the existing law to prevent another meltdown.

    Hawks is correct on her assessment and it is driving you to distraction. You and your party are wrong on this as this is as populist as it can be. The more voters that would actually read her statement, the more they would see she is on base with this and NOem is in right field kicking dandelions.

  108. Troy 2015-12-18 14:14


    First, Regarding Shelby, I guess we are better off having a chairman who voted against Gramm-Leach than having one who supported it.

    Second, to prevent a meltdown, I want to return to a pre-Gramm-Leach financial regulatory environment, which also had proper home loan regulations. Nothing more. Nothing else. I am still having a hard time why people are disagreeing with me here except because I am a Republican.

  109. Porter Lansing 2015-12-18 14:31

    I’m disagreeing with your assertion that if Hillary immediately removes Gramm-Leach there will be a meltdown. The only ones affected will be the big banks and investment houses and their wealthy clients. Allowing another ten years of the uber-rich to stand on the necks of the middle class is your goal and that’s quite disagreeable to the majority of voters.
    Yes, you are a Republican and your goal is to help the wealthy at the expense of the average voter…and that alone is cause for disagreement.

  110. mike from iowa 2015-12-18 14:56

    Shelby was a Dem until 1994 and sold out to wingnuts.

  111. Troy 2015-12-18 23:51


    Besides the classic ad hominem logic fallacy of your response, it is nonsense.

    If my motive was as you falsely assert, why would I even advocate going back to Glass-Steagal, why would I defend Glass-Steagal virtually every time I have a chance to do so, and why was I against its repeal?

    Since you studied business in college making you an expert in finance, did you also take a psychology class so you can answer that question?

  112. Curt 2015-12-18 23:56

    What’s the topic here? /cp

  113. Porter Lansing 2015-12-19 02:04

    Mr. Jones:
    To taste the entire ocean requires but a tiny sip. Your goal is to make money for those that already have a lot. My goal is to stop you from doing it by taking money from the poor who have so little.

Comments are closed.