It should be another exciting day at the state Water Management Board meeting today in Pierre. At 1 p.m., the board again takes up the application from the fundamentalist (read “polygamist”) Mormon “United Order of South Dakota” to draw more water for its secretive compound near Pringle. The WMB has been working on this application all year. They stalemated 3–3 on the water permit in July after Mormon camp leader Seth Jeffs dodged their questions about simple things like how many people live in the compound.
The Custer County Chronicle says the board should turn down the application, lest the state become complicit in polygamy and pedophilia. They also don’t trust these Mormons:
It’s characteristic of FLDS spokesmen to lie to us “infidels” who are non-FLDS members. They lied from the very beginning when their building permit application said they were going to construct a hunting lodge. We have never been able to establish direct contact with any of the group’s members, but do believe that they continue to lie about the number of school-age children in the compound. And, as far as we know, no birth or death certificates at the compound have been recorded in Custer County since the group arrived on the scene in 2005 [editorial, “Board Should Nix Second Water Permit,” Custer County Chronicle, 2015.10.08].
A lawyer for a neighboring landowner and opponent of the permit expressed a similar religiously based objection at the July hearing:
Michael Hickey, an attorney for nearby landowner Linda Van Dyke Kilcoin, who opposes the water application, said Jeffs is a felon and that granting the request wasn’t in the public interest. Jeffs pleaded guilty in 2006 to harboring Warren Jeffs as a fugitive.
“You’ve got a convicted felon over there who takes orders from the prophet, and if you think that if the prophet says something and tells you to do something different than South Dakota law, that he’s going to follow South Dakota law? He’s not,” Hickey said [James Nord, “South Dakota Tells Polygamists to Bring Details for Water,” AP, 2015.07.09].
Hmm… would folks citing that opposition to the Mormon compound be willing to apply the same suspicion to political candidates who tell us God has called them to run for office?
The state’s chief water engineer, Jeanne Goodman, is still recommending approval of a 20-year permit for the Pringle polygamist compound, on the condition that “Site visits by Department of Environment and Natural Resources staff will be permitted at any time to verify any of the permit qualifications.”
Today’s agenda packet includes more than forty letters of opposition, including one from South Dakota author and poet Linda Hasselstrom, who calls the fundamentalist Mormons rapists:
Providing a permit for even more water will encourage the FLDS to continue their practices of raping little girls under the guise of religious freedom. Please help stop their influence by not allowing them to expand further in our county [Linda Hasselstrom, e-mail to Water Management Board, 2015.09.20].
The Pringle Mormons’ lawyer will surely object to the Water Management Board’s consideration of allegations of prophet-ordered lies and rape in determining the merits of this water permit application. But the state water board should demand that the applicants provide full and accurate information about the Pringle compound’s population and projected water usage and accept the state’s condition that DENR staff be able to inspect the property and its water works for compliance.
In a county named for a war criminal religious freedom is for the other guy: right, Custer? Hypocrisy reigns supreme in southern Dakota.
God forbid they go into an opulent building somewhere and ritualize the eating of the body and the drinking of the blood of some imaginary Jewish guy while clergy diddle their kids then lie about it.
Pick a lane, Kurtz.
Groups who use religion to break the law should not be given aid by the State of South Dakota. Polygamy is not legal nor a protected rite by religious freedom. By granting this permit, the State is endorsing their illegal activity or at least, turning a blind eye to it. The Fundamentalist Mormons are child raping human traffickers and need to be stopped. I would love for the right wingers to say a permit denial would be a another salvo in the war on Christianity. Would the Water Management Board approve a water permit for a group of Rastafarians to grow marijuana in the Black Hills?
Bill, religiosity is the heroin of the feeble-minded sandwiched between two communion wafers and shot into the veins of lunatics.
I trust polygamists further with our water than the right to rape us, insitu miners from Asia.
Kurtz^ channeling his inner Mao. ;-)
whats the difference between them and all of the hutterite colonies? who is to say what goes on behind the goat pen door? personally i don’t trust any religious organization. If we are going to beat up on one we should beat up on all of them.
Exactly, Roger: and the Hutterites are among South Dakota’s biggest polluters.
It’s not the religion that’s the problem. As per Linda Hasselstrom, it’s the raping of children that’s the problem.
I think we are treading on very dangerous ground when we start linking people’s access to their government because of either “non-traditional” creeds or suspicion of criminal behavior.
Would you be of the same position if this was a compound of atheist hedonist polyamorous hippies who treated children as communal and not subject to their biological parents? Would not the mere mention of this lifestyle choice be condemned as discriminatory and or bigoted?
If there is evidence of crimes being committed, that is a law enforcement matter. We don’t deny people food stamps based on rumors of being a drug dealer, rapist, or thief. Cory’s very last sentence is the only questions and issues relevant to this request. Everything else is irrelevant to the request for a water usage increase permit.
For the record: I find the creed of this group and the rumors of what may occur inside the compound abhorrent. If there were a legal way under the Constitution and law to break up this compound, I am for it.
Aquifer sources are not considered high quality water for irrigation but fossil water from limestone contains the minerals that made us human. Note the huge number of Hutterite communities applying for permits awaiting approval at South Dakota’s Department of Ecocide and Natural Ruination to pump dwindling aquifers.
http://denr.sd.gov/des/wr/pubnotice.aspx
Recall that South Dakota earth hater legislator Betty Olson defended a Hutterite colony caught in a wetlands dispute with the US Fish & Wildlife Service. Story by John Hult in the Sioux Falls Argus Leader linked here:
http://www.argusleader.com/story/news/2014/07/05/sd-hutterite-colony-caught-wetlands-dispute/12240811/
For the record: I find the creed of Troy’s group and the rumors of what may occur inside the sacristy abhorrent.
Troy, I’m not sure about your comment, we are in dangerous ground if we don’t protect the rights of these people? Leave it to law enforcement? Cripes Warren Jeffs was a sicko that rampaged for years….because Law enforcement took so long. I don’t agree that it’s a technical and compliance issue only. We are only kidding ourselves if we accept that. I admire and agree with the people saying stop this bullshit.
I lived in utah….Mormon is like any other religious group, good people and bad. These one’s are bad. C’mon Troy. Is this the freedom we want to exalt in SD? Really? Non traditional creeds? Define that for me?
These are the issues that make me think. Do I support the polygamist? No, I think they are a terrible group of people, who having met members of their Arizona compound you have to wonder what is going on there.
However if they are willing to let it be inspected and build it to the right specs who am I to complain? They are actually filing a permit for it, not just building it, like a few people in South Dakota have been known to do.
I’m guessing Betty Olson and dittohead wingnuts would go clear out of their way to oppose Obama’s federal gubmint.
Spike,
What I’m saying is we are treading on dangerous ground if we link approval of permits to suspicions.
Is it the place of the city office that approves building permits to deny a permit to remodel a basement because of suspicions of illegal teen drinking or dope smoking will be done in the basement?
Should the county clerk deny a wedding license because they suspect the couple is motivated to avoid deportation of someone whose student visa might be expiring?
In the former example, the purview of the building permit office is to issue permits which will conform to city code and not enforce teen drinking or dope smoking laws. In the latter example, it is the county clerk’s purview to issue licensed to two people presenting themselves legally capable to be married and not enforce immigration law.
The purview of the water board is solely to consider water usage permits on the merits of the application according to the law and not enforce marriage or statutory rape law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_restraint
http://www.keloland.com/newsdetail.cfm/south-dakota-approves-polygamists-groups-water-request/?id=186126
I can agree with the abstract theory of its just a routine water permit and since I’m not the states attorney, sheriff, department of social services or whomever else is supposed to make sure children aren’t being abused, women being kidnapped or any of the other lovely things THIS SECT of Mormons have a history of practicing I will leave it alone. Appears to me the majority of the community concerns are irrelevant in this application process.
So Cory, are we ignoring the elephant in the room here? Or am I missing something? Isn’t polygamy illegal on its face?
Sounds like a waste of good water.
So is adultry unless you are both native on the Rez, BF. As well I wonder how many fornicators have been denied water permits?
Oh well, bring in Janet Reno and gas em. It worked before. Problem solved, no water permit.
Hmm, when is adultery illegal anywhere? Pull your head out man, you are suffocating.
Sin is an illusion but criminal activity is the bane of reproductive freedoms.
Pick a lane, Troy.
These people are married to a criminal enterprise regardless of their religious views affirming their behaviors just like Troy’s church is.
South Dakota’s legislature protects the sins of the past just like Troy’s church does.
How the hell do you compare possible child molestation/kidnapping with illegal drinking or a visa violation? I freaking don’t believe you actually said what you said,Troy.
Isn’t polygamy illegal? Perhaps if someone obtains two state issued marriage licenses, but probably not if it is merely religious coupling without state involvement. Indeed, if non-religious cohabitation with multiple people is not a crime, then the religious approval of the relationship by calling it “marriage” certainly shouldn’t make it a crime.
I too think this group’s beliefs are odd, but I agree with Troy that we cannot legitimately assume that all these people are raping children absent some evidence to the contrary. The Texas episode is somewhat informative.
Indeed, given the actions of Texas in taking custody of hundreds of children from the Texas YFZ compound, it would seem that there would have been literally hundreds of prosecutions for sexual offenses. Apparently Texas took over 400 children into custody for suspected child abuse or sexual abuse. After extensive searches, interrogations and investigations, Wikipedia reports that 12 men, not all apparently from the ranch, had been indicted on a variety of sex charges, including assault and bigamy.
These men should have been prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But to condemn everyone else who has been indoctrinated into the FDLS craziness seems an over-reach. If crimes are alleged, we should definitely investigate and hold the perps criminally responsible. But to persecute an entire group of hundreds or perhaps thousands of crazies by denying them a water well permit due to the bad behavior of 13 or so Texas or Utah criminals seems an over-reaction.
Mike,
I’m not equating them.
1) I was just trying to use examples to make the point we don’t want our city permit people denying building permits because of SUSPICION of illegal behavior, no matter how serious one thinks it is because then you get into where is the line and why should building permit people be drawing the line. Is it with child abuse but not spouse abuse? What about verbal abuse?
2) We don’t expect building permit people to enforce anything but building code law. We also don’t expect child protection services to enforce anything but child protection law. To do so and expect professional and proper enforcement of anything is unrealistic because each area is of specialized expertise.
http://www.childbrides.org/abuses_LVAE_tough_6_months_for_polygs.html
Defendants got 8 to 75 years in prison. Nice picture of Jeffs with his 12 year old bride.
Good discussion here. Seems to me BCB, Troy, and Cory have it framed about right, Les is still rooting for The Branch Davidians, and Larry’s wearing out his Bic trying to set his hair on fire. In other words, another classic DFP roundtable. Thanks all.
bcb-doesn’t seem like the county has much access to the place. Without access it would be hard to investigate squat and chances are the people inside won’t cooperate out of fear of their leader. Nuke ’em!
His Holiness has all but admitted sect-wide abuses so The City of Sioux Falls should cut off the water meter at Paul Swain’s house.
Fleming: shouldn’t you be over at Pat’s Place jousting with sock puppets?
mike, all it takes is an objectively reasonable allegation of illegal behavior to open the place up. But as best I can tell, the claims of criminal activity flow from the conviction of Jeffs and and the 12 other perps who have been charged. Without any additional claims of abuse, do we really want our officials to make decisions based upon speculative claims unsupported by either actual allegations or evidence?
This is Life with Lisa Ling on CNN did a one hour show on the FLDS group in Hildale, UT, Oct. 1, 2015. Some of the children of Warren Jeffs discussed being abused by Warren Jeffs, their father. Pringle is run by Jeffs who is in prison and his brother. Someone in SD should be paying attention to what is going on in Pringle. Are the children safe? There are so many questions and I doubt any outsider gets to enter that compound to get answers. http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/30/us/polygamist-flds-warren-jeffs-update/
Interestingly enough I’ve found being 86ed from a vomitorium like DWC ironically cleansing.
It’s been a while since I was involved in the water rights area, but, as I recall, there are technical questions regarding whether water was available, how much drawdown/interference, etc. Then theere is the question of public benefit or public interest. The technical issues are usually addressed by the DENR professionals after some study. You can attack the DENR’s assessment, but you have to have some pretty good evidence and a witness or two who are professionals in the field.
Then there is the question of public benefit/public interest. If I’m remembering this correctly, the DENR makes a cursory decision on the public benefit area, generally concluding that almost any use of water is a public benefit. So if there is a question about whether the use of the water is a public benefit, it is up to someone in the public to initiate a contested case hearing. Such a hearing would provide the opportunity for intervenors to provide witnesses on this question, even to depose leaders of the sect. It would be up to the Board of Water Management whether they want to allow this use of water.
Intriguing jerry, do tell why you feel so intuitively confident adultry has no legal consequences anywhere. Wasn’t our Pennington county states attorney taken to court over a similar claim? A North Dakota fella was taken to court by the sa I believe. In SD criminal conversation is a civil action.
Of curse I’m still rooting for the Davidians, BF. Just as I’ll defend the rights of anyone against the mob you run with. The elephant in the room is our rights you wish to give away.
Sent from my iPad
Sent from my iPad
Larry’s KELO link and the full AP story in the Rapid City Journal show that it comes down to questions of law. The Mormons refused to provide more information yesterday. Seth Jeffs refused to appear again. Their lawyer, Jeff Connelly, said the groups is not legally required to provide any more information than appears in their permit. Board member and lawyer Rodney Freeman said he was offended at the group’s refusal to provide more information but had to cede the legal point: apparently there is nothing in the permit process requiring that Jeffs provide an accurate headcount of the compound.
But now DENR should have permission to enter the compound any time to ensure that the conditions of the permit are being followed. That could be the wedge that allows the law onto the compound to look for signs of wrongdoing.
Yes, polygamy is illegal, as is forcing children into sexual relationships. The problem is finding prosecutable evidence. We cannot take mere religious information and secretive behavior as evidence of criminal activity. But we should watch these people like hawks.
State wingnuts could emulate their federal wingnut bros and say no state water goes to religious whackjobs,just like fed wingnuts say no taxpayer dollars can be used to pay for women to exercise their rights to choose abortion.
DENR will not act on a complaint unless a form is filled out and signed by the complainant and mailed in. 179 engineers on staff and no one will drive 50 miles to catch the purps in action. It was our state that handed off the power of our DENR to the Feds. We have no one in state government willing to get any of anything on their hands due to the corruption being everywhere.
Do not expect DENR to act on anyone one unless it would be me for opening my mouth.
$20 says the feds, DCI and nameless others are surveilling the goings-on at Seth’s house 24/7/365. Expect real news from there very soon.
If any law enforcement officers with a legitimate warrant are met at the gates by armed resistance,can we then nuke ’em?
Post an official at the gate and have him/her claim he/she smells marijuana and then that is probable cause for entering w/o getting a warrant and searching the place. The cops do this regularly with autos,especially minority vehicles and then they can fish all they want .
No nukes, mfi. But we can gas em. Worked at Waco.
Cory, I ran a search of the term “polygamy” on the LRC website and found no references in either the statutes or the constitution, hence you might be mistaken when you say: “Yes, polygamy is illegal,” at least here in good old SD.
Perhaps it is a distinction without a difference, but SD only prohibits “bigamy” rather than polygamy. And our marriage statutes are pretty clear on what constitutes a “marriage” beginning with obtaining a state sanctioned marriage license. We no longer permit or recognize so called “common law marriages” in SD.
If the FLDS folks in Pringle are obtaining multiple state approved marriage licenses prior to their unique religious vows, then perhaps they could be prosecuted for bigamy. But if they engage in multiple so-called “marriages” without obtaining licenses and without involving the state, then this type of polygamy is simply not against the law in SD.
And folks who marry in their peculiar church without obtaining a state issued license and without involving the state likewise do not have any of the marital rights of state sanctioned marriages, such as property rights upon divorce, spousal rights to inherit, etc, etc. Indeed, the lack of such rights was one of the key problems gay couples sought to resolve by seeking a state sanctioned right to marry. The term “polygamy” seems a hand me down from our country’s dark ages, when consenting adults were treated as criminals for engaging in various sexual activities outside of a state sanctioned marriage.
mike, while the smell of marijuana typically will permit an officer to search vehicle for marijuana without a warrant, there is a different rule for homes and surrounding land. Absent some sort of exigent circumstances, an officer would have to apply for a warrant to search someone’s home. That said, a judge would likely grant such a warrant request because the marijuana smell constitutes the requisite probable cause.
I dealt with DENR staff. Some very smart people totally hamstrung by political concerns. Scared for their jobs. What is wrong with the picture of DENR wanting to enter compound to inspect? Are they supposed to look around for abused children? WTF. What exactly are the permit qualifications that would require DENR to inspect?
USFS and US park service have given their rubber stamp also. To the United Order of South Dakota.
Freeman and Goodman say they can have the permit, have completed application process correctly and I guess their just innocent farmers trying to get by.
Larry, I thought the SD Republican party had a copyright already on the “United Order of South Dakota”
N Mike, from my understanding some of the water in the southern black hills will already make you “glow” lol
“2) We don’t expect building permit people to enforce anything but building code law. We also don’t expect child protection services to enforce anything but child protection law. To do so and expect professional and proper enforcement of anything is unrealistic because each area is of specialized expertise.”
That may be what we should expect, but building and zoning will do things like fabricate reasons for demolition if they think that will get rid of a drug problem or a recurring police problem. Doing this destroys all respect for the integrity of the building and zoning systems. We ran into this in Rapid City. Had to pay $150 to have a hearing. After the hearing a cop told us he was so happy to see responsible people had bought the house and described the problems police had there before.
bcb-I remember awhile back cops in California flying over residential areas with helicopters and infra-red sensing equipment looking for illegal mj growers. Nowadays,drones are equipped with sensitive cameras that can see what goes on in restricted spaces from quite aways up in the air. Getting a warrant probably wouldn’t be that hard. I’d still be worried about armed resistance from right wing groups that don’t trust the fed at all.
Les,I thought the feds showed much more restraint at Waco than at Ruby Ridge. Waco was a big mess. I don’t know if the gubmint has learned anything from it or not.
mike, check this out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyllo_v._United_States
Under this decision, the California cops may well have violated the 4th Amendment. There is an exception for items in plain view from either the air or public property, but since heat is not in plain view, cops need a warrant to search for it with infra-red sensing equipment.
As opposed to armed resistance from left wing groups MFI ?…… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_terrorism
“””Les,I thought the feds showed much more restraint at Waco””
You are either extremely uninformed or insane, mfi. They killed most of them at Waco. Women and children who had no say over their situation.
Les,i is neither. The fed allowed the nonsense to go on for 50 days,negotiating with the nutjobs inside.
Bret,I was talking about right wing groups in the US like the NRA,white separatists,militias,etc.
Interesting breakdown on the Scotus decision,bcb.
Keep digging, mfi.
Nothing left to dig for,Les. Koresh wanted to Jim Jones his flock become a martyr of sorts. Mission Accomplished.
I’m curious that there are no death or birth certificates being issued for people in this compound. I guess nobody dies there? Or no births? Ya right. I want to know what it takes for peace officers to ask those questions? Is it the law to report these? Does Custer county law go in there? Apparently someone is talking to forest service and park service and those two gave them a hug and said go get your water. Ick.
The local community wants these “leaders” held accountable to society and this water permit is not the way to do it.
Oh I forgot, their just farmers minding their own business.
hahaha-reminds me of kim davis; the last time a religious zealot was the elected public licensing/filing official (and her nepotistic deputy “bubba”) who “both went with their gut” issuing discriminating marriage licenses. now we want the state to discriminate by refusing to issue a license. the custer county chronicle and custer county commission faces big, modern day issues, what with discriminating against Indians last month, and this month against mormon cows-wait wasn’t harney the great avenger of the emaciated cow dying of thirst? Chairman Phil Lampert-buck up buddy!
http://southdakotaprogressive.blogspot.com/2016/02/flds-compound-in-pringle-could-be-raided.html