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Regulate the Militia, as the Founders Intended

Dave Baumeister, DFP columnist
Dave Baumeister, DFP columnist

a guest column by Dave Baumeister

Yep, I am a true-blue South Dakotan, and I like my guns. You know why? 1.) I am a true-blue South Dakotan, and 2.) I grew up on western movies and television shows in the 1950s and 60s. Granted, I also got a good dose of WWII fare, where we saw Telly Savalas or the Rat Patrol ripping apart Nazis with machine guns, but hey, they were Nazis, so that was OK.

Yes, I learned a lot from watching those shows. I learned that guns were things to respect, and that some people used them to hurt others.

I also learned that it was not only legal but prudent to pass laws that outlawed the carrying of guns in the business district of town, such as in Dodge City, Kansas, and Tombstone, Arizona. Ordinances like that became obsolete, not because the Supreme Court ruled them so, but because people stopped going around heeled.

I must have also learned that I liked learning about the past, because today, I am a social studies teacher. And that being the case, I thought I would talk social studies with my readers.

In the past, there were two schools of thought about people appointed to the Supreme Court: those who believe the Constitutions should be taken on face value and have nothing else read into it (usually Republicans), and those who view the Constitution as a living, breathing document (usually Democrats).

One president who was a strict interpretation guy became history’s biggest advocate for the “living, breathing” position: Thomas Jefferson.

Although the Democrats tend to claim Jefferson, he was actually a Democratic-Republican. That party, formed by Jefferson and James Madison (the guy who wrote the Constitution), believed in states’ rights and a strict interpretation of the Constitution.

But because the Constitution didn’t say anything about adding new land to the United States, Jefferson was originally against doing so. Boy, did that change in a hurry when he got the chance to buy the Louisiana Territory. All of the sudden the Constitution had to become flexible with the times.

Early on, the Constitution had to be adaptable. If not, why include an article that allowed for the amendment process? That alone says, “we realize this will need to be changed.”

However, somewhere along the line, as issues became more divisive, people started using the Constitution and Supreme Court for political purposes, which is where we are right now with the Second Amendment. The wording is very simple: A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

What is a militia? It is a civilian fighting force, like the National Guard or the Minutemen of Revolutionary fame. States had to have their own militias for protection. The Encyclopedia Britannica defines militia as a “military organization of citizens with limited military training, which is available for emergency service, usually for local defense.”

To make a point to what the Constitution was referring to when the Bill of Rights was drafted, let’s look at Article 13 of the Virginia Declaration of Rights adopted a month before the Declaration of Independence.

That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power.

Sound familiar? It does lend a little more context the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. And by the way, both Jefferson and Madison, being from Virginia, would have been aware of it.

So, anyone who says the Constitution protects the right to carry any weapon anywhere one wants, is way off the mark. Even if someone debates the meaning of “militia,” it is really hard to legitimately argue that the “well-regulated” part does not give the government the ability to regulate weapons and the people who carry them.

The slick NRA lawyers who argue this most likely focus on the “shall not be abridged” phrasing, but as long as people who are part of a military organization of citizens with limited military training…” are allowed to keep weapons of some kind, the Second Amendment is being respected.

Do you know why we have a right to bear arms? As with most of the original amendments in the Bill of Rights, they addressed faults of the British. They used to confiscate people’s weapons to better control a population on the verge of revolt.

But that was also at a time that the weapons the military had were about the same as any other weapons people might own. Let’s face it, today’s military will always have better weapons than the general public; they don’t need to confiscate anything to be better armed.

Now, while I am a South Dakotan who likes his guns, I also know that I don’t need or want an AR-15 with a 30-round clip to hit what I am shooting at. The only purpose of something like that is to kill a lot of people quickly.

Like Paladin and Lucas McCain, I know a gun should only be in hunting food or to protect oneself or others.

Beyond that, weapons need to be “well-regulated.”

203 Comments

  1. John Dale 2019-08-16

    How about regulating social engineering? With an increasingly intelligent population, the hustles don’t work anymore and drive the intelligent to insanity.

    My suggested type of approach that at least makes an attempt to get at the root cause will yield more flower. Otherwise, those – for instance – oppressed by silly little hustles will find bigger and better ways to kill than a silly little A-R with a silly, quaint little 30 round mag.

    Gun control is a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist (guns are not sentient and cannot pull their own triggers).

  2. Senator Stace Nelson (R-Fulton) 2019-08-16

    🙄 Not being one to hold back the electoral success of the South Dakota Democrats’ efforts in reinterpreting and subverting the 2nd Amendment, and their obsessive efforts to infringe on South Dakotans Constitutional Rights.. I feel I must point out the obvious oversight in your musings.. It literally does NOT matter to South Dakotans’ rights what you think Virginia’s Constitution portends to the tortured attempts to disassemble South Dakotans Constitutional Rights..

    South Dakotans’ Constitutional Bill of Rights state explicitly, that here in God’s country, their rights to be armed is CLEAR:

    Article VI § 24. Right to bear arms. The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be denied.

    https://sdlegislature.gov/Statutes/Constitution/DisplayStatute.aspx?Type=Statute&Statute=0N-6-24

    But, “Democrats aren’t coming for your guns.” Except your major candidates are advocating mandatory gun confiscation.

    Let the rabid personal attacks ensue.. 😉

  3. mike from iowa 2019-08-16

    The only constitutional rights being infringed upon in Northern Mississippi is by Nelson and wingnuts denying women of all status their right to control their reproductive lives. The rest is bulloney.

  4. John Dale 2019-08-16

    Senator Stace Nelson – well said. You’d have my vote here in Lawrence County .. although, I do find some discomfort in the willingness to allow people to have guns, but deny them Hemp, on which The US Constitution is written!

    I’d like to legalize Cannabis and get the government out of the industry. It’s been incorrectly demonized by Harry J. Anslinger to garner a budget in the wake of de-prohibition of alcohol. Please take a closer survey of the context around Cannabis prohobition starting with our website: https://PlainsTribune.com/cc4l

    The Cannabis being sold on the black market is laden with really bad things. Language warning in this Joe Rogan interview with ex CIA agent, listen for a minute or so to get to the Cannabis information (John Norris):
    https://youtu.be/nhBePYuPZ9E?t=2637

    Sincerely,

    John Dale
    Cannabis Consumers for Liberty
    Spearfish, SD 57783

  5. Porter Lansing 2019-08-16

    Groups like the NRA and gun-huggers like Stace Nelson have never been weaker. Now’s the time to move. The American militia is seriously under regulated, nearly overtaken by white supremacists, and moving towards inappropriate unbalance.

  6. John Dale 2019-08-16

    Porter Lansing – Molon labe.

    “Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.” ― Sun Tzu

  7. Porter Lansing 2019-08-16

    You needn’t quote Sun Tzu to me, Dale. I’ve read and remembered more of him than you have.

  8. John Dale 2019-08-16

    “I’ve read and remembered more of him than you have” — yet another unquantified statement.

  9. Porter Lansing 2019-08-16

    My education is superior to your’s, Mr. Dale because I study out of curiosity and you study out of fear. I learn to help people while you learn to selfishly help yourself. I’m searching for a cure while you’re searching for protection.

  10. John Dale 2019-08-16

    Porter Lansing – “I study out of curiosity and you study out of fear”

    The truth is that guns don’t kill people. Gun control is a solution looking for a problem since guns don’t think and they don’t pull their own triggers.

  11. Debbo 2019-08-16

    I fully support red flag laws so that dangerous people cannot own guns.

    In addition, no citizen needs a gun that shoots more than about half a dozen rounds and definitely not automatically.

    Lastly, guns should be designed so they are difficult to modify to automatic fire status.

    Individuals and businesses that manufacture and distribute kits to convert guns to automatic ought to be punished as criminals.

    Now we can all continue with our hunting and other outdoor sports and activities without impediments while being safer wherever we go.

  12. bearcreekbat 2019-08-16

    John Dale, if “guns don’t kill” why do we take them away from felons, mentally ill folks with homicidal and suicidal tendencies, people who engage in domestic violence, and other dangerous folks? Or perhaps you do not support these policies based on your belief that “guns don’t kill?”

  13. John Dale 2019-08-16

    bearcreekbat – hammers and knives kill more than assault rifles each year. What is the root cause of the mental illness?

    The Ohio shooter was on Xanax (the coroner confirmed from blood draw).

    Xanax was further down the chain of causality than the gun. Get rid of the Xanax or the perceived need for the Xanax, get rid of the violence issue.

    The problem with the psychological litmus test is the potential for abuse. There is 100% chance it will be abused, and a false positive in the public sector is a cardinal sin.

  14. John Dale 2019-08-16

    Debbo – my position is that it is a fallacy of reasoning to think that the absence of 30 round mags will make it safer. In fact, while not solving the problem, gun control creates an unintended externality .. it opens the door for government tyranny.

    Gun control actually makes us all less safe.

    Anyone denying that governments get tyrannical as a natural end-state should refer to history books.

  15. bearcreekbat 2019-08-16

    John Dale, “hammers and knives kill more than assault rifles each year” – exactly! If guns and asswault rifles don’t kill why do we prevent felons, mentally ill folks with homicidal and suicidal tendencies, people who engage in domestic violence, and other dangerous folks from owning guns and assault rifles but freely permit them to own “hammers and knives?”

    Or as I asked before, since you are certain that “guns don’t kill” do you support allowing felons, mentally ill folks with homicidal and suicidal tendencies, people who engage in domestic violence, and other dangerous folks to freely acquire and own guns and assault rifles?

    Your earlier response seems unclear and a bit evasive, although it sounds like you support allowing the mentally ill to acquire and possess guns and assault rifles? If so, since “guns don’t kill” and “hammers and knives kill more than assault rifles” are you suggesting you support the right of mentally ill folks with homicidal and suicidal tendencies to acquire and possess “assault rifles,” but not “hammers and knives?”

  16. Porter Lansing 2019-08-16

    John Dale. You’ve been to Gitmo. What weapon you own or could own will protect you from the governmental tyranny of an A-10 Thunderbolt II Warthog coming down on your house like a lightning bolt?

  17. bearcreekbat 2019-08-16

    John Dale, your comment to Debbo that “governments get tyrannical as a natural end-state” in the context of questioning gun regulation implies that you would plan on murdering any government official or employee if you felt that official or employee was engaging in what you concluded was tyranny – is this a correct understanding of your planned use for your guns – to murder people that you consider to be following tyrannical orders?

  18. John Dale 2019-08-16

    bearcreekbat – my argument is that it would be absurd to outlaw hammers and knives because that, too, would not address the root cause of deadly intentional violence.

    My argument was also that it is truly impossible to diagnose mental illness with complete certainty, and that giving government the power to qualify someone as “insane” to take their firearms when no crime has been committed will result in false positives and (more) abuse of the system and violence against people who would help limit the tyrannical powers of government using firearms (if necessary).

  19. mike from iowa 2019-08-16

    Except your major candidates are advocating mandatory gun confiscation.

    Nelson, in the history of these divided states, thanks to white racists like Drumpf and Steve King, how many major candidates have managed to confiscate a single gun from any person in America?
    They simply do not have the power to do so on their own and it isn’t likely Russia/NRA/wingnuts would go along with this.

  20. John Dale 2019-08-16

    bearcreekbat – “you would plan on murdering any government official or employee if you felt that official or employee was engaging in what you concluded was tyranny”

    Every part about this statement is true save that I would be the judge of when it is time to be offensive against a tyrannical government.

    I would follow the lead of the founders, who exhibited utmost patience and used violence as a last resort at first in self defense, then offensively once (if memory serves) the Continental Congress ratified the appropriate measures.

    Great question.

  21. John Dale 2019-08-16

    mike from iowa – “This has got to hurt”

    We do not govern by poll outcomes.

  22. o 2019-08-16

    The current interpretation of the Second Amendment is a perversion. The need for a well-regulated militia predates the US’ ability to create and arm a standing army. It was the only practical way for this nation to defend itself. By the Civil War, the US government could and did arm its army; at that point the Second Amendment became obsolete — in fact, I would argue the ability of the racist, secessionist, traitors of the South to engage in armed conflict with the Government of the United States was made possible by the Second Amendment. Further expansion (to near absolute dogma) is nothing more than political contrivance.

    Even using John’s boogieman of a “traitorous government” that requires citizens to rise up against, there is no, NO possible path to victory given the full force and might to the US government’s armed forces in an armed conflict. An armed overthrow of the US government (even a tyrannical version of it) is an amosexual fantasy.

    No John, we do not govern by poll outcomes, that would be democracy. You seem far more approving of governing by bank account.

  23. o 2019-08-16

    John, are you saying that more than 11,000 people were killed with knives and hammers?

    FBI data shows that about 11,000 people were killed using guns in 2016, the majority of whom – over 7,100 people – were killed using handguns.

  24. bearcreekbat 2019-08-16

    John Dale, thanks for your relatively straightforward answer to my question about murdering government officials and employees with your guns. Based on that answer I assume you supported the shooting of Gabby Giffords and Steve Scalise since the shooters apparently believed Giffords and Scalise were engaging in tyrannical conduct and felt helpless to stop them through non-violent means, hence necessitating the attempted murders in what they concluded was “self defense” against the adoption or continuation of the objected to government policies.

    Meanwhile, you continue to dodge my first question:

    Since you are certain “guns don’t kill,” do you support allowing felons, mentally ill folks with homicidal and suicidal tendencies, people who engage in domestic violence, and other dangerous folks to freely acquire and own guns and assault rifles?

    I can understand if you don’t want to answer it. But changing my premises about the people involved by suggesting difficult diagnostic abilities is simply non-responsive.

    And one more question – if “guns don’t kill” people, what good are your guns going to be when you attempt to murder government officials and employees carrying out policies you deem tyrannical?

  25. mike from iowa 2019-08-16

    Drumpf unfailingly refers to faulty polls to prove he is right on major issues. He loves Rasmussen, which leans his way.

    He then declares polls against him as fake news and dismisses them out of hand.

  26. Owen 2019-08-16

    What’s sad Stace is the right’s love of guns. The right, including yourself, put your right to own a military style weapon over someone’s right to live. You prove that by not even supporting Red Flag laws, which aren’t the answer but they are a start.
    Nobody is trying to take away your hunting rifles, shotguns or handguns that, I guess, make you feel like a man.
    How many more people have to die before you change your mind? Maybe there is no number.
    The only bright side is that tghe majority of Americans want some kind of serious gun control.

  27. Debbo 2019-08-16

    From National Memo, no paywall:

    A poll released Wednesday by The Economist/YouGov found massive support in America for a number of provisions to keep people safe from gun violence.

    78 percent support enhanced background checks, including for gun show purchases;

    59 percent of those asked said they support a ban on semi-automatic weapons;

    65 percent support a ban on high-capacity gun magazines;

    73 percent support a five-day waiting period on handgun purchases;

    66 percent support requiring gun owners to register their weapons;

    52 percent support a limit on the number of handguns a person can own;

    55 percent back requiring a police permit before buying a gun; and

    51 percent support allowing the Centers for Disease Control to do research on gun violence.

    Democrats have backed nearly all of the issues that received such strong support. The NRA and their allies within the Republican Party have consistently blockaded the issues, despite sustained public support.
    http://bit.ly/2KWTxDI

    __________________________________________

    The nuttier types who watched “Red Dawn” too many times and lusted after Patrick Swayze see themselves as saviors of the past fighting against the evil US government in the Rocky Mountains. They’ll preserve a pasty white nation so it can swirl down the regressive drain more gently. Hence the fitting moniker, Ammosexuals.

  28. John Dale 2019-08-16

    Debbo – Manufactured public support for a solution with no actual problem. One possible scenario: the gun grabbing is a false flag .. SSRI’s are being pumped into cutouts, who are being activated, who will stop being activated when patriots are deactivated through gun control measures.

    Global interests would love to see the resulting civil war.

    It represents an opportune moment of weakness.

    For those coming for the guns, I feel very sorry. Those most serious about the continuity of the republic will not want our guard down long, the reaction will be swift, and the outcome will be bad wither way.

    It is very important to disarm this cultural bomb now through cultural and political judo.

    Keep believing there will be substantive gun control .. if that is what preoccupies you enough to lose control of Google so that we might once again restore constitutional ideals.

    Make sense?

    Your polls are accurate. Your polls are accurate. Your polls are accurate.

    :)

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-idUSKBN1322J1

  29. Debbo 2019-08-16

    JD never met a conspiracy theory he didn’t like. Creative. You should try writing screenplays. Action movies are popular.

  30. Debbo 2019-08-16

    Keep trying J. You seem to enjoy bizarre theories and highly questionable sources. However, you’ll have to go there without me.

  31. Richard J Colbert 2019-08-17

    Lets forget about controlling guns. Why not use the same tactic the members of MADD took. They didn’t go after the automobile….they went after the drivers of those vehicles when they showed up drunk. . . However, there is no need for big pickups and big vans. Those gas hogs create CO2. . . oh foolish me, the environmentalist are going after those weapons of mass destruction. . . In any event, I have never seen a parked car intentionally kill anyone. . . it takes a driver. . . and I have never seen a person murdered by a gun. . . it takes a killer!
    Richard J Colbert
    South Dakotan by choice.

  32. Cory Allen Heidelberger Post author | 2019-08-17

    Richard, explain to me what the MADD strategy translated to gun users looks like. Isn’t Moms Demand Action going that route, and aren’t they facing the same Second-Amendment absolutism that the rest of us face when we try to propose policies to reduce gun violence?

  33. Gail Johnson 2019-08-17

    Senator Nelson, Why does any citizen need an AR-15? These are military weapons. If someone wants to experience them, make them available for rent/storage and use at a gun range. The Brady Bill was, while in effect, effective and no one eligible to own a gun had theirs confiscated. That fear is unfounded.

    Why not, minimally, support background checks on all gun sales?

    The state legislators’ change in conceal carry laws opens South Dakotans to further risk of gun violence. This is not the wild west and this law was reckless.

  34. John Dale 2019-08-17

    mike from iowa – not sure how credible is “rawstory”, but I didn’t find the video at that link. Do you have a direct link to the video?

    The Ohio shooter was a Satan worshipping goon in a band called “menstrual munchies” who supported Elizabeth Warren. You can find this information from multiple credible sources online.

    Alex Jones claims to have evidence from Archive.org claiming that the El Paso shooter was not conservative, but Antifa, and that his social media was modified moments after the shooting.

  35. John Dale 2019-08-17

    Cory – we need to reduce violence .. period. Guns have nothing to do with that equation. Reducing alcohol consumption would reduce all kinds of violence, for instance.

  36. John Dale 2019-08-17

    Richard J Colbert – well said.

    Hitler took the guns. Mao took the guns. Castro took the guns. Stalin took the guns.

    Trying to take the guns from patriots will result in more violence, not less.

    That said, I have to admire your courage for pushing this agenda in South Dakota.

  37. Porter Lansing 2019-08-17

    Rarely does a day go by that John Dale doesn’t bring up anti-depressant medicine. Why? Must be a subject he’s involved with. Let’s see.
    ~ Mr. Dale … What does this mean? What are “cutouts”? Do you have first hand knowledge of the subject or is this just more heresay? [ SSRI’s are being pumped into cutouts, who are being activated ]

  38. John Dale 2019-08-17

    Debbo – it was a big story when Trump declassified a trove of JFK files. Do you recall that happening? It didn’t make much of the main stream mockingbird press since it was their people (CIA and its reverberative precursors) who likely offed JFK.

    The coroner’s report is legit. There was no magic bullet (Costner did a good job proving it in the Stone movie as well, but the coroner’s report is, well, the smoking gun).

    If you’re not looking for them, shadowy forces controlling our government will run hustle after hustle to push an agenda of greed, self satisfaction, and debauchery.

  39. John Dale 2019-08-17

    mike from iowa – President Trump is correct to criticize the media. DJT’s use of Twitter is masterful, transparent, and honest (we’ve never had that before as presidential communications were editorialized and selectively edited by the press-gestapo).

    President Trump is also right on the money regarding polls. He is wildly popular right now in our country (the most amazing land and culture on Earth, but not without its flaws, and we are fortunate to live here, which is why everybody seems to want to come here).

    My favorite poll .. like .. of all time:
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll-idUSKBN1322J1

  40. jerry 2019-08-17

    trump is a fascist that can only master that. His followers are cut from the same cloth, fascists all.

    Propaganda comes from the media called Fox news, the fascist network.

    “”A trove of Treasury Department emails released to the non-profit organization Democracy Forward and provided exclusively to The Hollywood Reporter this week paint a picture of a close, friendly bond between the Trump administration agency and two news organizations, Fox News Channel and Fox Business Network.
    “The 270 pages of email correspondence were obtained as part of a Freedom of Information Act request and detail conversations that took place in 2017 and 2018.”

    Regulate the guns like you regulate the vehicles while taxing them to cover expenses for the carnage they both do.

  41. John Dale 2019-08-17

    bearcreekbat – “Gabby Giffords” – this was tragic. As near as I can remember, there was no declaration by Congress or presidential order under Martial Law rousing patriots in the home land to attack her. The guy was hoped up on SSRI’s and meth on Marana, AZ. Individuals, in my opinion, should not be the judge of when and where to exact anti-state violence. If it gets to that point, we’re screwed anyway and maybe it is better to head for the hills. If, for instance, The SD Legislature passed legislation stating that D.C. was corrupt and overrun, then activated our militia (National Guard), declared them as a state-controlled (only) entity, and rallied with other states to March on Washington, I would gladly be a keyboard cowboy controlling South Dakota manufactured drones to take-out traitors (I’m getting too old to march).

    I really enjoy firearms .. like darts and baseball (both of which could be deadly .. remember Randy Johnson’s 90mph pitch that killed that dove .. WOW!). I would use them all for self defense if required.

    I know some here would try to claim that I am crazy out of convenience to win an argument, but this kind of rhetoric is dangerous if it gains adoption. Indiscriminately declaring someone unsuitable to handle firearms is .. well .. crazy. Here is why ..

    In the event that the state declared me unfit it would be untrue. When the state tried to come and forcefully take my firearms, I would consider myself to be under direct and present threat of tyranny, since likely the officers doing that duty would be armed and willing to kill me to take my rights to own firearms defensively. This is why red flag can never pass. While I might lay down my arms and look for a state level declaration to fight back (live to fight another day), many will just start shooting and I personally would not fault them. Officers should not carry out unconstitutional orders. Many will die needlessly if our government tries to take the guns.

    “mentally ill folks with homicidal and suicidal tendencies, people who engage in domestic violence, and other dangerous folks to freely acquire and own guns and assault rifles” — since it is impossible to determine the status of suitability objectively, I’m willing to allow felons to have weapons (guns, knives, their fists, martial arts training, automobiles, and access to over-the-counter chemicals at the grocery store). Instead of banning all of these inanimate things, I would choose instead to focus on the over-perscription of a class of psychoactive drugs called Selective Serotonin Uptake Inhibitors (SSRI). Also, consider that Cannabis users are often times felons who would not hurt a fly.

    I would also focus on greed disease and consider something like an income cap that would help ensure that resources are not gobbled up by someone who is addicted to money. I would also consider addiction therapy for people who pursue money as an end (there is a dopamine feedback response when receiving income, maybe more powerful than cocaine, heroine, and meth).

    Guns are not a root cause of violence, so I would choose to focus in other areas like greed and pharma. In the event that China succeeded in taking over our government, I would advocate hanging officials that helped turn it over to them, and if there was a declaration of qualified individuals (even if we formed, say, a new type of Continental Congress with a critical mass of patriots), I advocate using firearms and other means to protect one’s home, property, family, and continuity of the republic offensively.

    Because guns DO NOT kill people. Red Flag laws (and other really terrible policies) kill people.

  42. John Dale 2019-08-17

    o – in the FBI data, are you ruling-out suicides?

  43. John Dale 2019-08-17

    o – “NO possible path to victory”

    As I recall from reading about it, the cards were stacked against the founders, too, until they updated their fighting methods.

    “we do not govern by poll outcomes, that would be democracy” — this is a mildly democratic process, but it strains credulity to call polling democracy. In a true democracy, only citizens get exactly one vote, which would require a national ID.

    mike from iowa – “Russia/NRA/wingnuts” – this is such a goofy representation; completely off the tracks. Thank you for the belly laugh, Comrade.

  44. John Dale 2019-08-17

    jerry – “trump is a fascist that can only master that. His followers are cut from the same cloth, fascists all.”

    Please tell me you realize that Hitler also advocated gun confiscation, and that Totalitarians take the means of self defense, disarm populations, then exact controls on the production and distribution of everything (knowledge, toilette paper, housing, clothing, transportation, food).

    “Fascist” – take it from a qualified moral philosopher: I don’t think that means what you think it means.

  45. John Dale 2019-08-17

    jerry, o, mike from iowa, Debbo – remember that scene from Austin Powers where he stays up all night realizing how much he’s missed?

    A lot has happened in the last 14 years .. it’s like you missed all of it.

    https://youtu.be/PgFDo6G-EO8

  46. Porter Lansing 2019-08-17

    Dale. Red flag laws are in effect in eight states. Connecticut, Indiana, California, Washington, Oregon, Colorado, Nevada and Hawaii. Five of these have legal recreational marijuana, which shows that cooler heads make better decisions about guns. As I’ve noted, should you come here you’ll be flagged and rightly so.
    You don’t need a gun. A gun will only opportunize your ability to harm yourself. Society decides what’s best for our group.

  47. Porter Lansing 2019-08-17

    Manson kept coming in for fake interviews every few years. As did Leslie Van Houten and Susan Atkins and Lynette Fromme.
    Manson would wear a beard, a handkerchief on his head, sunglasses, rings and jewelry.
    All of which is not allowed for level 1 prisoners.
    They are also not allowed interviews.
    He never wears prison clothes.
    Truth is he never spent a day in jail!
    Tex Watson fathered 4 kids. The official story says that it was the result of conjugal visits. Level 1 prisoners are not allowed conjugal visits.
    Manson supposedly got married while incarcerated in a maximum security prison. That is also against California Penitentiary regulations!
    The LA Times published his marriage certificate which stated as his place of residence – Santa Barbara, California!
    Ripley’s Believe It or Not

  48. John Dale 2019-08-17

    Porter Lansing – “should you come here you’ll be flagged and rightly so”

    You have perfectly illustrated the problem, that gun restrictions are not meant for the few, but the many.

    I freely and openly travel with firearms to any state that reciprocates with SD. I have many times and I will in the future without any fear of retribution from the state.

    You should join the NRA if you haven’t already. It’s your American right.

    BTW, every year the Sturgis Motorcycle rally has several fatalities on the highway. Not from guns. Highways are a threat to our safety, and I think we shoud (ab)use the powers of the state to ban them.

    The neo-left’s confidence game has some inertia, but the pendulum is swinging back forcefully.

  49. Porter Lansing 2019-08-17

    I know Mr. Dale knows this. The DEA places operatives in rural states posing as petition gatherers for marijuana legalization in order to get a read on the situation, exert a leading force, and compile lists of users who sign the petitions.
    Is it happening in rural South Dakota? Is the DEA in Garden City, CO? Greely? Of course, they are.

  50. o 2019-08-17

    John Dale: “Hitler took the guns. Mao took the guns. Castro took the guns. Stalin took the guns.”

    Why did you leave Howard off your “took the guns” list?

  51. Porter Lansing 2019-08-17

    Colorado doesn’t have to take guns from those who’ve been red flagged. With proper psychology, they’ve all voluntarily handed them over. It’s a carrot on a stick approach. If you want them back, you’ll agree that you don’t need them for a while.
    ~ It’s a given. Any person like Stace Nelson and John Dale who are absolutely adamant that they “need” their guns, not just “want” their guns, possibly shouldn’t have their guns. That absolute “need” is a “red flag” that the brain is a bit twisted away from normalcy.

  52. bearcreekbat 2019-08-17

    John Dale, your response about permtting “mentally ill folks with homicidal and suicidal tendencies, people who engage in domestic violence, and other dangerous folks to freely acquire and own guns and assault rifles” did what I asked you not to do. You evaded the question by assuming away my premise – that there are in fact “mentally ill folks with homicidal and suicidal tendencies, people who engage in domestic violence, and other dangerous folks to freely acquire and own guns and assault rifles.”

    Either you don’t believe such people exist or your doubts about our society being able to discern who qualifies as one of those people make you believe there should be no restrictions to the free access to guns. My suspicion is that if you accepted the fact that people with such disabilities existed you would, like any rational person, seek to deny them access to guns because you know that guns kill and they could most easily use these killing tools to commit suicide or homicide.

    On your willingness to kill government employees and agents, I apologize for misreading your earlier answer. I thought you declared you would be the judge of who to kill and when to kill them. I see that I was mistaken and that you would not make any such independent judgment, but instead would only follow the orders of some other leaders, giving the example of ther State of SD legislature. This seems to explain why you question the shooting of Gifford, subject to a problem described below.

    Thus, if you were told to kill federal employees and officials by some agreeable government group (e.g. the SD State legislature) only then you would kill these people.

    In any event, your response leads to the problem of deciding which government to follow – the SD legislature or the people elected to lead the country by the voters of the United States of America. This seems an even greater dilemma since you, as an “individual,” “should not be the judge of when and where to exact anti-state violence.” Stating that you would follow the orders of the SD legislature leaves open the question of who would you rely upon to tell you should follow the orders of the State to kill federal officials or employees or whether to defend those folks against being killed by the State? If you make that decision on your own wouldn’t you then become “the judge of when and where to exact anti-state violence,” a situation that you deny to be appropriate?

  53. bearcreekbat 2019-08-17

    I have attended the Sturgis motorcycle rally for 43 years in a row and perhaps a few years sporadically before that. During that time I do not recall seeing a single biker “open carry” a semi-autiomatic rifle such as an AR-15 or AK 47, pistol, other style rifle, or other firearm. That is not to say that this has not occurred, but I haven’t seen it.

    Instead, the only evidence I recall about carrying guns was based on several shootings involving motorcycle clubs, such as the Hell’s Angels, Sons of Silence, Banditos, Iron Pigs, etc. Apparently some club members had concealed pistols and used them to shoot at members of different clubs. For example, some incidents occurred in a crowded bar at Gunner’s Lounge.

    https://www.apnews.com/eee7db79d730d6b0be51456bcbefe09f

    https://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/law-officer-shot-hells-angels-member-in-sturgis-police-say/article_23f959b7-86ef-56b2-88cc-f3a8ceadc9cc.html

    Another incident took place at Legion Lake in Custer State Park.

    https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/columnists/stu-whitney/2016/08/03/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-south-dakota-arrests-violence-biker-gangs-stu-whitney/88045324/

    I know of no circumstances where an alleged good guy with a gun used it to protect anyone (although this too could have happened).

    On a happier note I saw several vendors of Trump articles at the rally this year but saw no one wearing any Trump hat nor any other Trump paraphernalia except one teen girl wearing a Trump tee shirt. It appears that bikers might not be as big of Trump fans as some have asserted.

  54. John Dale 2019-08-17

    Porter Lansing – “The DEA places operatives in rural states posing as petition gatherers”

    Not exactly .. they just send a letter to FaceBook.

    If you had any specific credible intelligence about operatives on the ground here, you wouldn’t be posting this on a message board. I see most of what you post as delusional if not impractical fantasy. You implicate me as a danger, but I see this as projection. I’m suppose you’ve turned-in your guns until you have a better understanding of the context of their use.

    “The Facebook data privacy scandal centers around the collection of personally identifiable information of “up to 87 million people” by the political consulting and strategic communication firm Cambridge Analytica. That company—and others—were able to gain access to personal data of Facebook users due to the confluence of a variety of factors, broadly including inadequate safeguards against companies engaging in data harvesting, little to no oversight of developers by Facebook, developer abuse of the Facebook API, and users agreeing to overly broad terms and conditions.”

    https://www.techrepublic.com/article/facebook-data-privacy-scandal-a-cheat-sheet/

  55. John Dale 2019-08-17

    John – that is a fantastic decision. Then, you can teach and demonstrate gun safety, and put some distance between your children and the dense wireless systems being installed in public schools.

    Taking responsibility for the rearing of your children is the most rewarding thing you can do. When I was a hospice volunteer, I spent some time with elderly in the last stages of life. One of the most common regrets was not spending more time with their families (that, and working away from home too much, which is part and parcel).

    Here is some more information:
    https://doe.sd.gov/oatq/homeschooling.aspx

  56. Porter Lansing 2019-08-17

    #backstroker …

  57. John Dale 2019-08-17

    bearcreekbat – “did what I asked you not to do”

    While it’s a great tactic to win the argument, putting constraints on the answers of others, you have to admit, is not a fair tactic.

    I have a scenario for you. Brace yourself – in Philosophy we use extreme examples to illustrate a point. A rogue agent of the local police gets high on meth. After hours, she decides she wants to take a romp with you, breaks down your front door, draws her weapon, and says she’s going to kill you and do nasty things with your corpse. She shoots a member of your family and kills them in front of you. You have your pistol already drawn and aimed at her as she’s raising her barrel. Do you pull the trigger? If not, is this because she is a “government official”?

    My “willingness to kill a government official” has some well documented constraints that are well within reason, healthy psychology, and most important, the law.

    In short, I would shoot an agent of the government if he or she deserved killing and I had the authority of a credible government agency. You have misrepresented my position and assigned a label that could create a false positive situation and waste law enforcement’s time. This creates some legal exposure for you should some agency actually try to prosecute based on your inaccurate representation of my position.

    In the example I provided/contrived earlier, a rogue third party nation would have infiltrated our government and compromised elements of our government. I have never stated that I would offensively, unilaterally pursue and kill federal officials that I disagree with, yet you keep making that claim on my behalf. Stop it.

    Remember, it was neoliberal operatives who shot up a conservative practice baseball game. It was also a crazed neoliberal who tackled Rand Paul from behind and nearly killed him. I see what you’re doing as projection of an anti-gun fantasy wherein guns can no longer obviate the rampant tyrannical law-fare in which the neo-libertal establishment has become so competent.

    Deciding when to take action is difficult unless my life or the lives of my family are in direct and present danger, in which case SD law says I can empty my magazine into someone who is trying to kill us. How many non-suicide shooting deaths do we have here in SD? Is it lower or higher per-capita than around the nation?

    Why?

    Because, behind every blade of grass ..

  58. John Dale 2019-08-17

    In the midst of this fantastic discussion, I would like to thank Senator Stace Nelson for his stunning and distinguished service.

    For the folks on this forum, if you haven’t already, I recommend you read his bio and quit “shooting” your mouths off. da da, CHING!

    Senator Nelson, I hope you’ll take some time to review my website: https://PlainsTribune.com/cc4l

    I’ll make an effort to sign-up and speak at up-coming legislative sessions on the topic.

    We can either create a free and fair market for Cannabis, or we can facilitate and enable a group of crazed neo-liberals with a state-sponsored monopoly.

    Sincerely,

    John Dale
    CC4L
    Spearfish, SD 57783

  59. John Dale 2019-08-17

    hey everybody – I was inspired by some of Porter Lansing’s *ahem* amazing comments this morning .. I did an Internet radio broadcast at the site. https://PlainsTribune.com

  60. jerry 2019-08-17

    I know what fascist means and what you are just like you know. Grab that flag and hug it like chubby does while you look in the mirror and you will see fascist written all over your mug.

  61. John Dale 2019-08-17

    jerry – are you sure you know what it means?

    “In reality, the Nazis did take existing gun control laws and make them more draconian in order to target their political adversaries.
    Hitler disarmed his domestic enemies before launching a genocide against them via the Nazi Weapons Law of November 11, 1938, which prohibited Jews from ‘acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons,’ and ordered them to turn in all guns and ammunition to local police. As historian William Sheridan Allen noted, the Nazis also began house to house gun confiscations targeting ‘subversives’ shortly after they came to power.”

    Sound familiar, Porter, jerry, Debbo, et al?

  62. bearcreekbat 2019-08-17

    John Dale, you are in the best position to state what you would do or not do. I don’t know you and make no claims whatsoever about what you might do or what you believe. Rather, my comments and questions are in direct response to your comments and questions to me. I am simply stating what I understand what your comments are saying that would do or what you believe, which seems appropriate for a blog discussion. I am fully capable of misunderstanding anyonbe on this blog and have been accused of doing so by other commenters from time to time, but I do try to call them as I see them. I appreciate your clarifications any time and encourage you to state any errors I have made in understanding your comments about your intentions and beliefs.

    For example, from your earlier comments and links I understood you to have applauded Alex Jones’ idea that guns aren’t protected by the 2nd Amendment for hunting, rather, they are protected so gun owners will be able to kill government officials who gun owners believe to be tyrannical. I read your comments as adopting that position and posed several questions in an effort to confirm or dispel this understanding, and if it was confirmed, I hoped to try to get you to reconsider that position by recognizing its lawlessness, harmfulness and arbitrariness.

    The example of the rogue agent you have given is outside the scope of any of my questions or comments. In all my examples and hypotheticals the U.S. government agent was following his or her legal duties to implement policies the gun owner decided were “tyrannical.” Your rogue agent, however, was carrying out no such lawful policies and would be considered no different than a non-government criminal actor.

    As for winning the argument with hypotheticals, I appreciate your apparent concession that you would ban gun acquistion or ownership from the hypothetical groups I described, despite your contention that “guns don’t kill.”

    My use of the label “murder” was intended to undermine the fact that the killing of the government agent was in no way “authorized by law.” I saw and heard nothing in your Alex Jones link that suggested the 2nd Amendment was adopted to enable people to kill representative employees and officials of a tyrannical government only “when authorized law.” If you limit your killing to situations only “when authorized by law,” then you could not kill any government employee or official carrying out the tyrannical law of your current government.

    Bottom line – on point 1 – “guns don’t kill” is an incorrect statement as they are indeed a tool that primary purpose and design is to kill. On point 2 – the 2nd Amendment was not adopted to enable anyone to kill contrary to law and Alex Jones’ contrary position is both inaccurate and dangerous.

    if I try to im plement tyranny.

  63. bearcreekbat 2019-08-17

    disregard the last “paragraph” with 6 words as a typo – thanks

  64. John Dale 2019-08-17

    This is a fascinating article from The Intercept.

    I believe The Intercept was founded by Glenn Greenwald, who met with Ed Snowden in China and authored the original disclosures about all the stuff was was just suppose to be “conspiracy theory”, but was actually real government sponsored intel domestic digital terrorism (my opinion).

    https://theintercept.com/2019/08/16/facebook-moderators-mental-health-accenture/

    This is tangentially related to gun control since FaceBook dispositions would be used to perform the “rapid due process” of red flag laws.

  65. John Dale 2019-08-17

    bearcreekbat – all of this is very difficult, and it’s tough to pre-program every situation in which force might be justified. That said, I feel like to conversations we have been having on Cory’s site have helped me clarify in my own mind and strengthen my views and address weaknesses. Thanks to everyone willing to share and express themselves. If nothing else, we share that common American value – that expression, dialogue, and debate are foundational to progress.

  66. jerry 2019-08-17

    Glenn Greenwald is not to be trusted and neither should the articles from the Intercept. Greenwald is also an associate of Assange, who is a traitor just like him.

  67. mike from iowa 2019-08-17

    DJT’s use of Twitter is masterful, transparent, and honest (we’ve never had that before as presidential communications were editorialized and selectively edited by the press-gestapo).

    Only took one sentence for this Drumpfista to lose any credibility he claims he had. Honexst is a word that will never be used to describe Drumpf or his blowhard followers who suck up to Alex Jones and right wing conspiracy theorists.

  68. mike from iowa 2019-08-17

    DJT’s use of Twitter is masterful, transparent, and honest (we’ve never had that before as presidential communications were editorialized and selectively edited by the press-gestapo).

    Only took one sentence for this Drumpfista to lose any credibility he claims he had. Honest is a word that will never be used to describe Drumpf or his blowhard followers who suck up to Alex Jones and right wing conspiracy theorists.

  69. jerry 2019-08-17

    Here is the trump fascism Dale supports “cheer me or don’t get paid”

    “The choice for thousands of union workers at Royal Dutch Shell’s petrochemical plant in Beaver County was clear Tuesday: Either stand in a giant hall waiting for President Donald Trump to speak or take the day off with no pay.” https://www.post-gazette.com/business/powersource/2019/08/16/Trump-speech-union-crowd-Shell-ethane-plant-natural-gas-beaver-county-pennsylvania-attendance-pay-overtime/stories/201908160113

  70. John Dale 2019-08-17

    jerry – “Glenn Greenwald is not to be trusted and neither should the articles from the Intercept. Greenwald is also an associate of Assange, who is a traitor just like him.”

    Gay bilingual animal rights activist and hard nosed journalist Glenn Greenwald is not to be trusted?

    Greenwald, like Snowden and Assange, should all be given a very fair assessment.

    The presence of intellectual honesty in debate is best demonstrated in whether arguments address “that” while rarely elucidating “how” or “why”.

    “That” Snowden and Assange are traitors, but never say “how” or “why”.

    Supposing that these two are traitors is a long row to hoe.

  71. Porter Lansing 2019-08-17

    Undercover DEA agents can’t shut up when outed. They run their yaps like a drunk in the back of a squad car, charged with DUI.

  72. John Dale 2019-08-17

    Porter Lansing – “Undercover DEA agents can’t shut up when outed” — listen to my show at https://PlainsTribune.com

    Install the Spearfish City Limits App.

    You sound like you have some experience having your cover blown.

    Personally, I’m with a hybrid paramilitary intelligence group with funding from the CIA, NSA, and Navy Seals. I have never been in any of these agencies formally, but that’s why we are such potent civil defense force – see, that’s my cover. We call ourselves .. The Brown Eyes. *queue flashy jazz improv music and interpretive dancers*

  73. Porter Lansing 2019-08-17

    Why would Mr. Dale think I was talking about him? Personalization is a tell of the guilty, though. Just sayin’ …

  74. John Dale 2019-08-17

    Porter Lansing – I think you sprung your trap too early. Did I say you were talking about me? If so, I mis-spoke.

    Honestly, are you smoking banana peels or something?

    Sincerely,

    Brown Eye Leader

  75. jerry 2019-08-17

    Personalization is a tell of fascism, along with narcissism and racism.

  76. John Dale 2019-08-17

    jerry – personalization of what? I was making fun of the fact that Porter Lansing came out of nowhere with his DEA nonsense. Now you two are saying that I personalized something? What did I personalize? When? Where?

    Let’s see if you can produce a response that isn’t gas-lighting, straw man, or ad hominem.

    Maybe it would help if Porter Lansing explained how his DEA comments fit into the flow of a gun control thread.

    You two and mike from iowa .. maybe the three of you are projecting? Are you all three 2nd year college students and fraternity brothers?

    Sincerely,

    BEL

  77. Debbo 2019-08-17

    So there’s still no necessity for military style weapons, magazines beyond 6 shells, or most of the other stuff that ammosexuals cling to so desperately. I think that care package that Mike from Iowa linked to as delivered to the SFPD ought to go to ammosexuals like dale and other fearful brethren and sistern.

  78. John Dale 2019-08-17

    Debbo – “no necessity for military style weapons”

    I feel the same away about marbles .. literal marbles, not the figurative ones you seem to have misplaced. ;)

    Ban the marbles! If there are enough of them on the floor, it’s utter chaos and devolution of society and balance on ones’ feet!

  79. jerry 2019-08-17

    Paranoia, another personalization of fascism, man, ya got it going for ya.

  80. Debbo 2019-08-17

    Equating military style weapons with marbles. Bizarre.

  81. Roger Cornelius 2019-08-17

    Pick up the damn marbles, problem solved.

  82. jerry 2019-08-17

    Hard for fascists to pick up their marbles when they are losing them.

  83. o 2019-08-18

    Allow me a thought experiment on the whole it is people who kill – not guns obfuscation. If the gunmen in Dayton and El Paso had not been armed with guns (by their defined Second Amendment right as John and Stace have made clear here), would the death toll have reached 10 (and 27 more injured) and 22 (and 24 additionally injured)? I know there have been knife attacks, and a full spate of “what about” other weapons in attacks, but focus on just these two recent (no longer even most recent) attacks: would those two men have been able to cause such death in the absence of being armed with guns?

  84. John Dale 2019-08-18

    jerry – one very simple way to lose credibility: equate people with fascism because they disagree with you, then advocating disarming them like Hitler did with the Jews. Bonus points – steal, repackage and use their zinger (losing marbles).

    Debbo – the argument by rhetoric: ban marbles and guns because they are both dangerous – BOTH ARE ABSURD AND DYSFUNCTIONAL!

    “no necessity for military style weapons” – there is less necessity for marbles.

  85. jerry 2019-08-18

    Dale, one simple way to lose credibility is to be a fascist. You win that every time. You prove it with your sources, post after post. Now, go and wrap yourself around the flag like chubby and humping it like an old dog.

  86. John Dale 2019-08-18

    jerry – a big difference between you and I is that I point out things you’re doing that are fascist. You simply call me a fascist. I’m not sure how to cure you of this affliction other than continue to make sure you have access to quality information.

    For instance, arguing against a piece of information because of the source is a VERY bad habit (I can’t stress this enough). Rachael Maddow might say, “the sky is blue”. If I don’t like Rachael Maddow because I am a flaming sociopath, I might say, “no it isn’t! It is mauve!”

    But I would be woefully wrong, as you are now, and you have to look no further than the FORM of your argumentation.

    For instance, “what is 1 plus times 9” is nonsensical and therefore does not really require a direct response except to ask for a reformation of the question (feel free to criticize my form of the form of the argument).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    And of course, maybe my favorite fallacy of reasoning is called Hitchens Razor – that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You, jerry, mike from iowa, and Porter Lansing do this incessantly. No matter how many times you get this wrong, you just keep going back to it like obstinate little children who didn’t get spanked when they were little.

    Go ahead. Get mad. But improve yourself. To increase your credibility, include evidence with your arguments and disregard the source, because the sky is blue whether Rachael Maddow or Alex Jones says so.

  87. jerry 2019-08-18

    At least now you agree with me on who and what you are, whew, it took long enough. Now go get to hugging and humping that flag like your boy chubby does.

  88. o 2019-08-18

    It was not marbles, but the US did ban lawn arts when it became clear they were a danger to public safety — and that was without a mass murder involving that product. Yes, people throw lawn darts, but they were deemed too dangerous because too many were not responsible at the level of danger lawn darts presented.

    I say guns are a threat to public safety too. I really do appreciate the Second Amendment, but I have stated above the historical significance of its context. I also acknowledge Staces on-point presentation of the SD position on gun ownership that DOES go beyond my militia/standing arm need for arms.

    John ignored my question above on why he did not include Howard (Australia) in his list of leaders who banned guns. My point is that Australia is much like the US in make up. When faced with a national tragedy of mass-killing, they as a nation (with government leadership) took a hard look at guns and did not deny the evidence that more gun density means more gun violence (not statistically denied in discussions on this blog previously). In response to that national tragedy they DRASTICALLY reduced their gun ownership and SAVED LIVES. The US has taken the opposite tack: after each mass-shooting tragedy, we politically freeze and say silly things like “the wake of tragedy is not the time to talk about the issue” and actually buy MORE guns.

    Debbo had great poll numbers on how the nation feels about guns. The level of death caused by guns is not worth their Second Amendment protections for me; I think that is true for the vast majority of Americans. For all the rhetoric, the expanded Second Amendment and the NRA have worked to protect guns and gun sales; it has become less-and-less about activities (sportsmen and hunters) or people. If it were about people, then the bodies going to the graves would have weight in this discussion; keeping it about hardware avoids the hard discussion of the cost in lives for the protection of that hardware.

  89. John Dale 2019-08-18

    o – caution, rhetoric.

    And since the heroic banning of lawn darts, not a single child has died tragically.

    When data suggests significant effect, like in the case of 5G, I’m all for it. However, the data on guns is not clear.

    So, are you for banning 5G?

    The data is NOT on your site, here folks.

    “For an example of homicide rates before and after a ban, take the case of the handgun ban in England and Wales in January 1997 (source here see Table 1.01 and the column marked “Offences currently recorded as homicide per million population,” UPDATED numbers available here). After the ban, clearly homicide rates bounce around over time, but there is only one year (2010) where the homicide rate is lower than it was in 1996. The immediate effect was about a 50 percent increase in homicide rates. Firearm homicide rate had almost doubled between 1996 and 2002 (see here p. 11). The homicide and firearm homicide rates only began falling when there was a large increase in the number of police officers during 2003 and 2004. Despite the huge increase in the number of police, the murder rate still remained slightly higher than the immediate pre-ban rate.”

    https://crimeresearch.org/2016/04/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/

  90. bearcreekbat 2019-08-18

    Media Bias Fact Check describes the source of JohnDale’s claims as follows:

    Overall, we rate the Crime Prevention Research Center Right Biased based on strongly advocating for guns and the conservative agenda. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting based on a few failed fact checks.

    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-prevention-research-center/

    The information John obtained from that site might be accurate, but given the reported propensities and bias of the site it would be foolish to uncritically accept any factual claims the site posts.

    And I note in response to an earlier concern of John Dale, I fully agree that considering whether a site has a reputation for truthfulness is not a basis to accept or reject that site’s arguments. Rather, it is a basis for accepting or rejecting that site’s factual claims behind whatever arguments the site makes. In this case, it appears that Crime Prevention Research Center is an unreliable source for factual information.

  91. o 2019-08-18

    John: “And since the heroic banning of lawn darts, not a single child has died tragically.”

    Perfection – the false standard of the loosing. I will not get drawn into a foolhardy discussion that if we cannot help everyone we should help noone. If anything, maybe the standard for public safety should run the opposite direction: if ANY gun deaths happen then we should eliminate all guns because guns must meet a 100% safety standard to be sold. Does your side comply to that level of perfection to move forward?

  92. mike from iowa 2019-08-18

    Just sumpin about a China loving, gun hugging, Alex Jones devotee and Drumpfinista believer that makes me leery of any sources he uses.

    When Chuck “the cluck” Grassley gets his dander up about the poor job Drumpf is doing with farmers and trade issues, then Drumpf is not the farmer’s saviour as someone who posts on DFP believes.

  93. Debbo 2019-08-18

    “A Fox News poll last week showed 88% of Democrats and 75% of Republicans backing red flag laws, and universal background checks received nearly 90% support from voters in both parties.”
    http://strib.mn/2MpcWA2. Strib paywall

  94. John Dale 2019-08-18

    Debbo – the state can try this, but it will be a waste of time. I can testify that the gun community is already several steps ahead of any legislation technologically and legally.

    Hint: Self defense is an idea. It’s not an object.

  95. John Dale 2019-08-18

    o – it is far from clear, actually, since gang violence and suicides are typically mixed-into the results. The contexts of gang violence and suicide are much different and should be handled differently than direct murder with guns by someone hopped-up on Coke and Xanax. The number of bar fights that end up in shootouts on the street is, shall we say, way down.

    China has a keen interest in making sure gun possession and use are way down.

  96. John Dale 2019-08-18

    o – “I will not get drawn into a foolhardy discussion that if we cannot help everyone we should help noone”

    This was not the argument. My point was that we should invest in something that will have a return on the investment like banning 5G, which will hurt children on a wide scale.

    Even from the very first industry funded study, Carlo – later demonized by big tech and publicly shamed – wireless has been shown to be a carcinogen and unsafe while no credible public safety studies have been completed.
    https://www.thenation.com/article/how-big-wireless-made-us-think-that-cell-phones-are-safe-a-special-investigation/

  97. jerry 2019-08-18

    5G is not a big deal any more than microwave towers or any of the rest of things that bombard us daily. 5G will make advancement more easily for the future. I’m liking it already. Or 4G or 3G or oh gee!!

  98. o 2019-08-18

    John, why would you parse out some of the categories of gun violence? You are just trying to minimize the damage done by guns. That guns magnify gang violence and suicide is NOT a reason the exclude guns from the discussion; those are MORE reasons to take a much harder look at gun ownership.

    If two things are bad, regulate/ban BOTH. This is not an either-or discussion. One has nothing to do with the other. Your whatabout-ism reasoning is rejected.

    You still ignore that your position is that your individual right (transferred over the nation) to own a gun our weights the destruction of public safety CAUSED by that individual right. Even the examples of public safety being “enhanced” because of gun ownership are narratives of a “good guy” with a gun stopping a “bad guy” with a gun. The gun still is the threat to the public safety.

  99. John Dale 2019-08-18

    o – “your individual right (transferred over the nation) to own a gun our weights the destruction of public safety CAUSED by that individual right. ”

    This assumes the premise. I’m disputing the premise.

    Furthermore, it is impossible to measure crime prevention because of guns, which is how they work. Although, in the graphs I sent, you could inductively conclude that the delta in murders before and after gun control is the quantity of prevention of the presence of guns.

    The presence of firearms on a well trained person is a deterrent. We carry them in hopes we’ll never have to use them, while practicing to use them is arguably more fun than fireworks on the 4th of July.

  100. John Dale 2019-08-18

    oh jerry – “5G is not a big deal any more than microwave towers or any of the rest of things that bombard us daily”

    You are either for public safety or you are not. I can tell you neither read the article I posted nor sought out any credible research of your own.

    In the article I link, it states that 67% if the non-industry funded studies about wireless conclude it’s carcinogenic.

    Cancer is up as much as 3000% in some areas, and you an others are worried about lawn darts?

  101. mike from iowa 2019-08-18

    iowa frosh Sinator, Ivanna Kuturnutzov, was getting booed at town hall by iowans wanting moar gun control.

    https://www.rawstory.com/2019/08/goper-joni-ernst-booed-and-peppered-with-questions-at-tense-iowa-town-hall-over-her-defense-of-guns/

    In a bit of news that makes iowans look like real humans, iowa State fair Pork Queen climbed into a sow birthing pen and pulled a large piglet out of a sow in distress. The young lady was wearing her gown and tiara and story went viral. This happened at the fair and the Miss in question has much experience pulling piglets.

  102. John Dale 2019-08-18

    o – ” why would you parse out some of the categories of gun violence”

    I also don’t count deaths caused by firearms from Arab Spring or our war in Afghanistan.

  103. John Dale 2019-08-18

    mike from iowa – “So much for the good guy with the gun theory”

    It’s not how many people the good guy with the gun has killed. It’s how many he has not had to kill because the threat of the gun obviates the violence.

    You never quit. I admire that. Now, if you would only never quit reading.

  104. mike from iowa 2019-08-18

    Once again the Drumpfista misses the point, probably on purpose. The so called good guy left his gun where children got a hold of it. He is not fit to have a weapon. Those first graders easily could have discharged his weapon and injured themselves or someone else. It is way past time you ammosexuals took responsibility for your irresponsibilities. And stop making excuses for yourselves.

  105. mike from iowa 2019-08-18

    As for the first graders, I can hear Drumpf complain how they took the gun to make Drumpf and the NRA look bad.

  106. mike from iowa 2019-08-18

    What does LED lighting have to do with irresponsible gun owners?

  107. John Dale 2019-08-18

    mike from iowa – “What does LED lighting have to do with irresponsible gun owners?”

    You only have so many hours in the day. Persecuting guns and taking them away has proven to get more people killed.

    A better use of your energy and time would be to start focusing your energy on something that actually causes more harm than it helps – LED lighting and 5G (wireless in general, actually).

  108. Debbo 2019-08-18

    From National Memo:

    House Republicans have been circulating a memo internally that instructs members of Congress to blame violence initiated by white supremacists, like the recent El Paso mass shooting, as something that is the fault of “the left,” according to The Tampa Bay Times.

    A spokesperson for Rep. Gus Bilirakis (R-FL) said the memo was “provided by the House Republican Conference,” is currently chaired by Rep. Liz Cheney (R-WY). Bilirakis included talking points from the memo in a newsletter he emailed to constituents last week.

    The memo provides Republican members a series of questions they are likely to face from constituents and gives them the language to respond.

    Instead of addressing guns and anti-immigrant/white supremacist sentiment, they blamed video games, mental health, “screens,” social media, and the lack of school prayer, among other excuses.

    The memo adds to the growing evidence that the Republican response to the shooting is disinformation and inaction, following the path that the NRA has demanded for years.

    http://bit.ly/2Mp04Kf

    In other words, the GOP is supposed to lie, totally make stuff up, blame others, create fake causes and let more people die.

    Let’s see, 5G, LED, mental health, psychiatric meds, etc. Yeah. Those fit the GOP memo’s directions. Make up total BS! Yeah. That’s the ticket! 😆😆😆

  109. John Dale 2019-08-18

    Debbo – this kind of tactic, if true, is an indication of tit for tat.

    What I mean is .. if the CIA/Deep State/China and others would create a conglomeration of factors resulting in mass shootings in order to scare the American public into giving up firearms, this constitutes an emergency.

    The Deep State and its allies, under this scenario, would continue to deny, defray, and distract away from the core operation as China and their communist adjuncts promise leadership positions in a “new post constitutional regime”.

    I admit this sounds like a Tom Clancy plot, but we know there is enough evidence to case doubt on the official stories of 9/11, Gulf of Tonken, Perl Harbor, Vegas, and other events.

    These shootings serve the interests of SOMEBODY, right?

    When I lay-out a scenario like this I always watch closely for the most ardent detractors. Whether they know it or not, they are your deep state.

    My prediction was that there would be no national gun control, that President Trump would telegraph some cheap talk to get out of the situation without civil war, and promulgate a strategy that respects his JBS history.

    I think we see that playing out now as some members of congress have tamped down the angst and are starting to sift through the true nature of this situation, that deep state actors, Mossad, black mailers, murderers, thugs extorters, and low-lifes will do anything to retain and increase power with no regard for common sense, logic, morality, or the rule of law.

    In short, the fight is on, the gloves are off, and the deep state and anyone on its payroll are getting a serious wake-up call.

    .. and I LOVE it.

  110. mike from iowa 2019-08-18

    More people are killed bvy guns every year than are saved by guns. Stick to the subject and quit deflecting. Never mind you can’t.

  111. John Dale 2019-08-18

    mike from iowa – I’m not seeing a lot of intellectual dishonesty in what you’re putting out.

    Not including suicides is common sense. If not a gun, they’d use some other means.

    You’re afraid that Mongo is going to ride into town, waiving his guns in the air, creating chaos for the town. This just doesn’t happen. So, what does happen?

    SSRI driven school/bar/mall shootings.

    Crimes of passion where sometimes a gun is used.

    Gang violence that would use some other means if not guns (why are gangs killing each other?)

    But I argue successfully, reduce the gun control laws and reduce the arm-chair psychology and SSRI prescriptions, and you’d have a much safer society.

    If you do not account suicides, hammers and knives kill more people than the weapons you want to ban.

    This is why gun control advocates are crazy – they ignore the data.

    Then, here comes Debbo on her white horse citing congressional surveys and secret memos when Hillary was a 90% shoe-in and Confucious Institutions have been demonstrated to subvert our university communities toward fascio-communism!

    Wake-up Austin Powers.

    Meanwhile, the neo-left has a delusion that they are storming the beaches of Normandy when they attack innocent demonstrators and children in Portland because of the drug-addiction-fueld neo-liberal delusion that they are fighting Nazis (a delusion that you are promulgating and sinking fast because of it).

    The good reasonable people of this country voted for President Trump because of the delusion that you are spreading because of some strange but effective mind control program similar to that used by Mao in China and Stalin in USSR.

    I’m trying to save you here, bud, but at some point your MO becomes a danger to the continuity of the republic, a circumstance that will resolve itself at some point. The disposition of this system nearly tipped and would have if not for the election of President Trump.

    The more you and others mischaracterize him as a Nazi, Racist, and so on, the more people who see through the delusion will move to support him as long as he fights the corrupted delusion.

    There will be no race war regardless of how hard you try to police speech and change the semantics of words to suit that outcome.

    It doesn’t matter what color you are if you hold American values. If you do not hold American values, move to Mexico, Canada, or Somalia .. and best of luck to you my friend.

  112. Roger Cornelius 2019-08-18

    Any American that tells another American or even suggests that they move to another city, state, or country has forfeited the argument.
    In spite of what others may believe we as Americans have different values.

  113. John Dale 2019-08-18

    Roger Bornelius – “suggests that they move to another city, state, or country has forfeited the argument”

    This is an arbitrary rule.

    If one doesn’t like America, one doesn’t actually have to stay here. That is a true statement not intended to be a rule or mandate.

    Furthermore, in a civil society, we do not tolerate incitement to violence meant to foment a race war.

    “Racist, nazi” – these are terms bandied about carelessly as a part of a neo-left agenda to foment a race war, further the objectives of Cloward-Piven, and create stress on our system to break it beyond repair to attempt to achieve an insane utopian fantasy.

    Resist the dark side.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloward–Piven_strategy

  114. grudznick 2019-08-18

    Agreed, Mr. C. That’s why I stay here, where I was born here in South Dakota, despite some rude out-of-state people who tell me to get off my own land.

    I think you encapsulated our common feelings well.

  115. jerry 2019-08-18

    The genie is out of the bottle and everyone who wants to be armed can be. Big deal, when the 2020 election happens and trump loses, we will see how that all plays out. Americans all will have to decide if they want to destroy themselves or if they want to have a country that will be in the midst of one helluva recession. It’s still the economy stupid and this one is tanking fast.

  116. John Dale 2019-08-18

    grudznick – ” I was born here in South Dakota”

    So, in your opinion, since you were born here you have more right and title to stay and be counted as citizen with a whole opinion (as opposed to someone with half an opinion/vote)?

    :D

  117. jerry 2019-08-18

    The money boys will not want to see a second Civil War and as always, money talks. We can rant and rave about it until the pigs fly, but what we know as the GOP, will not be around anymore. No, they won’t be coming to the Democratic Party, but they will still be conservative but will want to work with Democrats to solve the problems we are gonna face. We will long for the days of the crash of 2008 as this one will look at lot like the crash of 1929. Read some of that history your teacher told you about then look at the bond markets.

  118. Roger Cornelius 2019-08-18

    Thanks grudz’s, as you know I am of the Lakota tribe here in South Dakota and nobody will tell me or other Americans where they can live. Nobody has that right.
    This “arbitrary rule” nonsense is the utterance of our deranged president used against the 4 U.S. Congresswomen when he told them to go back where they came from.
    I don’t have to call anybody a racist or Nazi, they show their colors everyday.

  119. Roger Cornelius 2019-08-18

    John Pale,
    My name is Roger Cornelius not Roger Bornelius, I don’t know if you’re trying to be cute or what. If you can’t address me properly, don’t address me at all.

  120. grudznick 2019-08-18

    Mr. Dale, I stand with Mr. C as to where anybody’s thought to tell either of us where to live will get them. You should read more carefully what grudznick has written, and be more respectful of Mr. C, as he’s a pretty swell fellow.

  121. Porter Lansing 2019-08-18

    John Dale is a shallow thinker who clings to anyone who will accept him as a disciple. He lacks the vision to know why Trump won’t win again. Trump’s lost the one thing that put him over the top. Hillary Clinton as an opponent. It’s been proven that most voters who voted Trump weren’t actually voting for Trump. They were voting against Hillary Clinton. She’s gone as will be this newest one termer.

  122. grudznick 2019-08-18

    I’m glad you see that now, Mr. Lansing. Let us both hope Ms. Clinton doesn’t get into the races again to fill her bitter ego.

  123. jerry 2019-08-18

    Clinton beat the fascist by three million votes

  124. Roger Cornelius 2019-08-18

    Not to worry grudz, Hillary is not getting into the race, it is not even consideration.

    President Obama has joined the Biden team as a consultant.

  125. grudznick 2019-08-18

    I am glad to read that, Mr. C. She is to blame for Mr. Trump, which grudznick has asserted often before and now even Mr. Lansing, a fellow from Colorado no less, acknowledges. grudznick will sleep well tonight in conditioned air with a full belly and by the morning people will have mowed my lawn and straightened all around. This is not due to Mr. Trump, and it is despite Ms. Clinton, but it still happens.

  126. Roger Cornelius 2019-08-18

    grudz, I’m not certain what Hillary Clinton has to do with the title of Dave Baumeister’s article on the 2nd Amendment.

  127. Roger Cornelius 2019-08-18

    grudz, I’m not certain what Hillary Clinton has to do with Dave Baumeister article on the 2nd Amendment.

  128. Debbo 2019-08-18

    Damn! Jerry, I had forgotten just how hard core Carlos Santana was. I’m glad he survived. Santana was such an outstanding band.

  129. Debbo 2019-08-18

    This link, http://bit.ly/2MnScc5 , leads you to a blog post about the GOP’s plan to lie about the perpetrators of US terrorism, blame the Democrats and the Left, traditionally pacifists.

    In addition, be sure to note the graphic which points out that about 75% of the domestic terrorists are white scumacysts/Nazis/KKK/trumpelstilskins/GOP lovers. Note the other to groups that round out the total.

    So, to make the USA safer we need to round up the white terrorists, disarm them and perhaps attach GPS ankle bracelets that can only be removed by sawing off the leg. Makes more sense than anything “AJ”, Faux Noise or any other wingnut traitors blabber. At least it’s about the real culprit, not a pizza joint.

  130. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Porter Lansing – “He lacks the vision to know why Trump won’t win again”

    You and jerry are both on record now saying Trump will lose.

    That’s great.

    “Small minds discuss people. Average minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.”

    I appreciate the hours I’ve spend with mentors of all kinds; musicians, academics, billionaires, capitalists, beatniks, women, men, young old.

    There is so much to learn .. and teach.

  131. John Dale 2019-08-19

    grudznick – “pretty swell fellow”

    There are a lot of pretty swell fellows in Canada and Mexico and maybe even Somalia.

    My suggestion to anyone on the “trump and his followers are nazis and racists” train should consider moving there.

    I do not advocate deportation. This is just a friendly recommendation.

    If you hate America and its values, leave. I say this out of love.

  132. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Roger Cornelius – “If you can’t address me properly”

    That was a typo. If I was trying to be cute, I might have written “Roger Bornillius”

    da da, CHING.

    I’d like to see that same level of vitriol for the 3-4 folks who constantly level personal attacks against me. Otherwise, your outrage falls hollow.

  133. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Rober Cornelius – “nobody will tell me or other Americans where they can live”

    Nobody told you where you can live. Somebody might have made a suggestion.

    Now, if I might illustrate another point ..

    “I am American, and nobody will tell me that I can’t respect my constitution or be proud of my heritage or tell me where to live.”

    Fair statement?

    Being one particular race or gender or age does not give a person any more right and title to anything, does it?

    Actions speak louder than words. With respect to the Lakota, what have been my actions?

  134. jerry 2019-08-19

    Truthful observations of fascism Dale, not personal attacks, just the truth.

  135. John Dale 2019-08-19

    jerry – do you think Antifa’s opposition to allowing the conservative rally in Portland is anti-fascist?

    Do you think Google/FaceBook and others banning speech is fascist?

    Do you think the neo-left’s practice of doxing is fascist?

  136. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Debbo – “75% of the domestic terrorists are white, scumacysts/Nazis/KKK/trumpelstilskins/GOP lovers”

    Do you think Antifa is a terrorist group?

    You’ve criticized me for being afraid and wanting to protect myself. But, isn’t your constant droning about President Trump being KKK/Nazi/etc just that? Xenophobic?

    I see many claims leveled against Trump about being a racist, then I see a picture of Jesse Jackson giving him an award.

    I hear all the talk about him being KKK, yet it was Clinton who was mentored by the KKK’s own Robert Byrd.

    Are you really on the neo-lib train, or did you just wake-up one day and find your self hoodwinked into the party that FOUNDED the KKK?

    My opinion: the GOP and DNC have been taken over by the same deep state establishment. They have established lines of cash payments to entice party leaders to craft their respective platforms to divide us. They want chaos, the fog of conflict, and division so they can keep raping our treasury and compromising our leaders right under our noses!

  137. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Clinton gets a kiss:

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/clinton-byrd-photo-klan/

    Like you, I woke up one day to find that the deep state had used trauma based mind control on thousands of our citizens – a centuries old tactic – to overtake our republic. But we figured it out just in time.

    It’s time to unite behind the dark truth, reconcile, punish, and move forward.

  138. mike from iowa 2019-08-19

    My suggestion to anyone on the “trump and his followers are nazis and racists” train should consider moving there.

    and yer proof that Drumpf is not a racist/fascist, when there is empirical evidence to the contrary. is?

  139. mike from iowa 2019-08-19

    Let’s see your evidence a “deep state” exists.

  140. jerry 2019-08-19

    My good friend Roger is very perceptive. He has noted that you have only belittled his good name and not any of the others that know what you are. Roger, of course is a proud Lakota man, and you, of course, are a racist.

  141. jerry 2019-08-19

    Dale, “jerry – do you think Antifa’s opposition to allowing the conservative rally in Portland is anti-fascist?” Duh, of course I do. Damn you’re really on a dumb arse roll today. The proud boys are fascists that you can easily identify with as that is you.

  142. mike from iowa 2019-08-19

    Not seeing a lifetime achievement award bestowed on the pathological lying racist in the kremlin annex.

    Jesse Jackson once praised Drumpf for a lifetime of help on minorities, but I think Jackson was on glue at the time.

  143. John Dale 2019-08-19

    mike from iowa – “yer proof that Drumpf is not a racist/fascist”

    What about what I said is either racist or fascist?

    “prove that deep state exists” — The deep state is a generational evolution of COG: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_of_government

    jerry – “Roger, of course is a proud Lakota man, and you, of course, are a racist”

    if I withhold criticism of someone’s idea because they are Lakota, I WOULD be a racist. Making decisions based on someone’s genetic lineage is PURE RACISM. Jerry, because you give Roger more credibility because of his race YOU SIR ARE A RACIST.

    Why are the proud boys fascist? You just keep stating “that”, but never actually take the step of justifying your position. That’s why nobody should be duped into believing you’re credible.

    But you are correct about one thing – Antifa is fascist and terroristic. They are opposed to the ideology of the proud boys. So, how can something fascist that is the opposite of the proud boys ideologically also be fascist?

    Again, just trying to help you along here, bud. One of us is correct. One of us is not. One of us would modify his beliefs and opinions in the face of new evidence and/or analysis, and one of us would not. One of us is a racist, and one of us is not.

  144. John Dale 2019-08-19

    mike from iowa – “I think Jackson was on glue at the time.”

    Great job.

    At manufacturing evidence to support your position.

    The deep state and its cash flows are swirling down the toilette right now. I don’t want to watch it really, but it’s like a slow motion train wreck and I just .. can’t .. turn .. away.

    Here’s a neat link to a post I made on 7/23/2016 – this kind of thing gives a person credibility, ya know?

    https://plainstribune.com/trump

    For what it’s worth, I’m not making any 2020 predictions. The deep state might successfully Epstein Trump before then, in which case Pence would be President and would declare Marshal Law.

  145. John Dale 2019-08-19

    “how can something fascist that is the opposite of the proud boys ideologically also be fascist”

    Should read “how can something fascist that is the opposite of the proud boys ideologically be used to label the Proud Boys as fascist”?

    Also, isn’t the Proud Boys founder homosexual and also the founder of Vice?

    Alex Jones calls the promulgation of incorrect information about something the “Streisand Effect” .. meaning, it amplifies the truth.

  146. mike from iowa 2019-08-19

    If one doesn’t like America, one doesn’t actually have to stay here.

    If one doesn’t like America, he/she/it have the right to say that in lights. The constitution says so. Unfortunately, stoopid effing wingnuts can’t read or decipher the constitution. They depend on right wing nut jobs to give them their rights talking points.

    And not being forced out of your ancestral homes appears to have been a right given only to wealthy whites at the start.

  147. bearcreekbat 2019-08-19

    The odd claims of John Dale continue. Although what groups or individuals constitute fascists seems somewhat off topic, some clarification is in order. Before declaring any group to be fascist it might be helpful to understand what the term means. According to Merriam Webster fascism is defined as,

    a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

    I haven’t seen any evidence that people who call themselves “antifa” purport to:

    exalt nation and often race above the individual,

    Instead, this seems to be what white supremacists and nationalists do;

    [support] a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader,

    this also seems to be the viewpoint of those apologists and synchophants for Trump despite his constant lying and public moral corruption;

    [desire to use the government for] severe economic and social regimentation,

    tax cuts for the rich, cuts to food stamps and other needed programs for people without resources, exclusion of legal immigrants on the sole ground that they might ask for help, all fit more squarely within this part of the fascism definition than anything I have heard antifa advocate;

    [desire to use the government for] forcible suppression of opposition

    Trumpists encourage government officials to “lock her up” or “send them back,” yet I have heard no such calls by antifa.

    So to answer your question John Dale, white supremacists, nationalists, Trumpists, and his synchophants, and people with similar attitudes, all more accurately fit within the accepted definition of “fascism,” than antifas. In fact, antifas are just the opposite of fascists as they oppose virtually every characteristic that defines fascism. That is why they use the term antifa to mean anti-fascist.

  148. mike from iowa 2019-08-19

    Alex Jones also claimed SandyHook murders did not occur and the victims were crisis actors. John Dale has less than zero credibility.

  149. jerry 2019-08-19

    You made light of Roger’s name which is typical of all white man racism. Shame on you

  150. John Dale 2019-08-19

    mike from iowa – “Dale has less than zero credibility”

    You resort to the default argument against Alex Jones, which has already been addressed. He is still on the air. He had over 30 lawsuits filed against him, 20 have been either dismissed or settled out of court (does not reasonably imply guilt).

    Considering the body of Jones’ work from exposing the CFR to infiltrating Bohemian Grove and exposing the sickos, to calling the Gay Frog story (Atrazine), to being on the money about Epstein and Trump. This one’s for you, bud.

    For the record, here is the form of argumentation you’re using (slow claps):

    http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/your-argument-is-invalid-24.jpg

  151. Debbo 2019-08-19

    Mike, “less than zero” indeed. Those “sources” Dale uses are the same ones Liar-in-Chief and his favorite adviser, Stephen Goebbels Miller, espouse. Of course, Liar-in-Chief is a documented 5 figure liar, having well earned his moniker.

    I will say for Dale, he is a more polite liar than his heroes. He does drive comments on DFP, keeps Cory’s numbers up and helps us hone our arguments to keep them credible. Plus, we get to watch BCB slice and dice another wingnut.

    That’s entertainment!

  152. jerry 2019-08-19

    Dale is the small man version of chubby trump’s fascism. He sounds just like a little feller trying to be like his daddy.

  153. John Dale 2019-08-19

    The rhetoric here is thick. I’m on a foreign digital land at the moment, admittedly (I come from the land of reason). Debbo, mike from iowa, jerry, and others echo off one another the same tired rhetoric.

    Then comes bearcreekbat to save us, pasting a definition from Webster, then stating “that” we “Trumpists” (how is this not a shallow SLUR) fit the definition without any evidence.

    “See”, bearcreekbat says with confidence, “do you not SEE how I have PASTED the definition and made unsupported claims about how you EMBODY SAID DEFINITION!”

    Antifa just attacked a father and his daughter in Portland for supporting The President of The United States in principle.

    As Antifa roams the streets with weapons, they push and strike those with opposing viewpoints (See Ngo interview with Joe Rogan .. that’s right, Antifa, you’ve even lost Joe Rogan!).

    “forcible suppression of opposition” – from your definition, this is Antifa.

    Meanwhile, Antifa (and you, frankly) extol praise on anyone criticizing the “white male”, or someone expressing love of country (this is not fascist inherently).

    As such, Antifa is putting “race above the individual” (AND GENDER).

    “exclusion of legal immigrants” – really? LEGAL immigrants? Now, that’s just a flat-out LIE isn’t it.

    “lock her up” or “send them back,” – yes. Lock her up. We have seen the evidence. Thy are here ILLEGALLY, send them back (this include Omar, who married her brother and committed immigration FRAUD to get into the country).

    “white supremacists, nationalists, Trumpists, and his synchophants, and people with similar attitudes, all more accurately fit within the accepted definition of “fascism,”

    And yet, you provide NO examples or analysis to support your position. But, you did post a definition and point, so .. you have that going for you which is nice.

  154. John Dale 2019-08-19

    mike from iowa – “whites”

    Didn’t you just give your fingers extra callouses awhile back for using the term “colored folks”?

    If one is a slur, why not the other unless you’re giving favor based on race, the definition of RACISM!?

  155. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Debbo – “Stephen Goebbels Miller”

    How is this not a slur? Do you have some evidence that this very cerebral, thoughtful, tireless person embodies Goebbels?

    And, if I might borrow your team’s own form of rhetorical argumentation. Why do you HATE bald people?

  156. John Dale 2019-08-19

    jerry – you commit a dozen or so fallacies of reasoning every day in support of the party of the KKK, and to attack someone who is doing a good job under the circumstances. Shame on YOU my friend.

    You also try to curry favor with the Lakota by being unapologetically racist. Shame on YOU.

    The original issue with Roger’s name was a typo. However, when I noticed it was sensitive about it, I made a joke.

    When it comes to comedy, I am equal opportunity and do not consider race .. as it should be in a free constitutional republic.

    I’ll also refer you to my track record on Lakota issues .. I have taken action. Do you have the courage to get into that, or are you afraid the members of this echo chamber will have another reason to feel bad about being wrong about yet another important issue?

  157. John Dale 2019-08-19

    jerry – “small man version of chubby trump’s fascism”

    Why do you think that President Trump is a fascist, and that I would somehow think he is fatherly?

    Trump is just our President. I am a very independent thinker that requires evidence to believe something.

    So, I don’t follow your reasoning.

  158. Porter Lansing 2019-08-19

    Debbo, alexithymians love conspiracy theories because they “feel” good to these patients who can’t express feelings. If false conspiracy theories are being believed as true, it’s because they are doing some sort of neuroses mitigation for the people who believe them. These people have a desperate need to make sense of the senseless. Faced with uncertainty, their brains seek understanding. Conspiracy theories provide refuge in a complicated, confusing world. They’re a simplification device. Rather than struggle with the complexities of life, the simple mind simplifies. But, when your outlandish beliefs are wrapped up in your personal value system, they alter your insecure sense of self. That makes accepting that a conspiracy theory is bogus feel like admitting there is something inherently wrong with you (Which there most certainly is, with John Dale).

  159. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Porter Lansing – “alexithymians”

    Armchair Psychoanalysts (you might be a professional, but then again what professional would spout off in a public forum?) are anally retentive marginal sociopaths that create weaponized ad-hoc systems of psychobabble to support their political opinions and disparage those with which they disagree.

    “Porter” – When you make it personal, reverting to psychobabble, it’s probably because you can’t seem to eek out a victory on a fair field of ideas as your inflated sense of self importance undergoes a legitimate test.

    Hey, I’m good at this. :D

    Is BMS hiring?

  160. John Dale 2019-08-19

    PS – alexithymians?

    I thought I was an alexjoneseophylipino, or ammomilintarianosexual, or trumplicapotatoecasserole’ or something like that. What gives?

    The argument that President Trump supporters must be crazy because they support President Trump is .. INSANE.

  161. bearcreekbat 2019-08-19

    John Dale’s reaction to the reference to an objective definition of fascism underscores his apparent confusion by the gaslighters he apparently enjoys. Nevertheless, he deserves some response given his persistence in asserting his purely subjective argument. His comments are blocked off and my responses follow.

    Meanwhile, Antifa (and you, frankly) extol praise on anyone criticizing the “white male”, or someone expressing love of country (this is not fascist inherently).

    As such, Antifa is putting “race above the individual” (AND GENDER).

    I cannot tell where this assertion comes from. I don’t see where I praised or criticized anyone in my comment. Nor do I recall seeing, hearing or reading any actual or credible evidence or news reports about antifa putting either race or sex above the individual. This claim seems to be projection of the views of white supremacists and nationalists, who publicly and openly define themselves by asserting their particular race or nation is superior to all other races or nations.

    “exclusion of legal immigrants” – really? LEGAL immigrants? Now, that’s just a flat-out LIE isn’t it.

    No, not according to reports about recent Trump white house proposals to remove or deny green cards necessary for lawful immigration to anyone seeking public assistance. Perhaps Dale missed that story:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-administration-makes-legal-immigrants-who-draw-from-social-programs-ineligible-for-green-cards-11565618625

    “lock her up” or “send them back,” – yes. Lock her up. We have seen the evidence. Thy are here ILLEGALLY, send them back (this include Omar, who married her brother and committed immigration FRAUD to get into the country).

    If I recall correctly three of the the four congresswomen referred to with the send them back chant were born in the USA, while the claim Omar married her brother is reported to be an unproven claim by Snopes, a source Dale explicitly relies upon from time to time in his own comments.

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ilhan-omar-marry-brother/

    Likewise, to the best of my knowledge Omar has never been charged with any immigration violation, civil or criminal, let alone found guilty of such an offense, while Hillary Clinton likewise has never been charged with or convicted of any crime. Thus Dale’s claims that Omar is here “illegally” and that “we have seen the evidence” that supports locking up Hillary are simply fantasy claims well outside our current reality.

    This seems to be the primary factual disputes that dale raised about my comments. I am niot sure what other facts he disputes that in his view require additional “evidence.”

  162. Debbo 2019-08-19

    Dale wins the prize for the most self-incriminating statement, next to many of Rancid Racist’s gibberings, for his description of Stephen Goebbels Miller:

    “very cerebral, thoughtful, tireless person”

    Dale is screaming “I am a cruel racist too!” Thanks for clearing that up Dale.

    You’re a fan of probably the most hateful person in Rancid Racist’s deministration, and that’s saying a lot. That deministration is chiefly populated by white scumacysts and his most fervent supporters are often white scumacysts.

    Shame on all of them and shame on you.

  163. John Dale 2019-08-19

    bearcreekbat – not only to I understand the definition of Fascism, I studied the system of governance while obtaining a degree in Philosophy a national top 10 program.

    “White male neo-liberal” Unfortunately, Antifa doesn’t publish their member roles or file their taxes with the state, but I will testify that in watching live streams of antifa events, this sentiment is rampant – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfqAkUXKT5Y

    Furthermore:

    “the Associated Press noted the discrepancies in the claims of the Elmi who affirmed to Alpha News he was the man in the 2014 Instagram photos but didn’t know Omar.

    AP said there were “several coincidences that suggest the possibility of a connection between Omar and the man who claimed he doesn’t know her.””

    Omar’s husband claims he doesn’t know her?

    Seems like some investigation is needed. I’m sure Omar is being forthcoming in cooperating with investigators, right? Nope.

    “In October 2018, the Associated Press asked Omar for immigration records and birth certificates. She refused to provide the immigration records and claimed birth certificates were lost during the Somali civil war”

    “Lock her up” refers to Hillary Clinton, Mrs. “what difference does it make now”. People go to prison regularly for compromising national security, and her State department was complicit in covering-up Epstein’s pedo island connection.

    Great post. Finally, something cogent and stimulating. That said, Omar and Clinton are not in prison or even on trial. However, it doesn’t look good for either of them and much of the evidence is already public.

    Again, thanks for engaging more respectfully than calling me a trumplican or ammosexual (it’s true, it just isn’t arguing for anything which makes these designations annoying at best).

  164. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Debbo – Miller wanting to regulate our Southern border doesn’t make him hateful. What does?

    Hateful?

    Really?

    I have a great deal of respect for Miller. When he speaks, it makes a lot of sense.

    But again, why do you hate bald people (sorry, couldn’t resist pulling your side’s shenanigans again)?

  165. Porter Lansing 2019-08-19

    Mr. Dale. Most all of us are retired. Why does a 44 year old, like you, not have a job? I know you’re not doing freelance IT work, anymore. Are you being paid by DEA to pass that petition, which you never seem to be doing? Hmmmm?

  166. Roger Cornelius 2019-08-19

    Where do I go enroll in this deep state thing?

  167. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Roger Cornelius – “enrollment”

    Good one. :)

    Porter Lansing – I am working on a freelance IT project even as we speak. I’m monitoring a long-running Q/A test on a neat cloud integration I invented. Where do you get your information? I think the source is rotten.

    Regarding the DEA and the petition, your comments could only be classified as dumb-ass:

    https://youtu.be/KbOB652if84

  168. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Anyone interested in supporting full legalization of Cannabis (I know this is way off topic), please text REEFER to 605 309 7007

    My family and I wrote the initiative, and it would have saved the state $3,100,000 in prison and jail costs in 2018 if already enacted.

    Thank you,

    John

  169. mike from iowa 2019-08-19

    Dale is so full of it he makes a holiday stuffed turkey look barren. Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!

  170. Porter Lansing 2019-08-19

    It wasn’t a DEA comment. It was a question/accusation and your refusal to answer it is in actuality an answer.

  171. jerry 2019-08-19

    Dale was last in his class at John Witherspoon College. Go spoons

  172. John Dale 2019-08-19

    mike from iowa – I just got back from the store where I got a cranberry red bull. It reminded me of thanksgiving. What am I thankful for, you ask? My firearms, and I stand in hopes that St. Nick will bring me an assault rifle and three or four 30 round mags for Christmas, not that I desire to use them against people, but that I do not.

    “Paid by the DEA to pass that petition.” — yet another accusation with absolutely no proof. *facepalm*

    Speaking of the DEA, this is a fantastic book that has The Hells Angels seeing the DEA everywhere like a complete Schizophrenic:
    https://www.amazon.com/No-Angel-Harrowing-Undercover-Journey-ebook/dp/B001NLKTII/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=no+angel+jay+dobyns&qid=1566249004&s=gateway&sr=8-1

    Jay and I share the same alma mater, but we do not share the same employer. But what an amazing book!

  173. Debbo 2019-08-19

    Here’s more of what the racist, theocratic GOP is up to, this time in Washington state. Training children to be soldiers, like Boko Haram’s child soldiers in Africa.
    _____________________________________________

    A week before his re-election last year, state Rep. Matt Shea denied that a leaked manifesto he wrote was a road map for a holy war, one that would pit conservative Christian “patriots” against Muslim and Marxist “terrorists.”

    Rather, Shea insisted, the document titled “Biblical Basis for War” contained notes for a scholarly sermon on war in the Old Testament.

    But newly leaked emails, first reported by The Guardian on Wednesday, as well as a video on Shea’s public Facebook page, show the Spokane Valley Republican has had close ties with a group called Team Rugged that trained children, teens and men in their early 20s for religious combat.
    ________________________________

    So sad that the people of a portion of eastern Washington voted for him. 😥

  174. Debbo 2019-08-19

    Oops. Link for above. is.gd/4qU3pa

  175. John Dale 2019-08-19

    Debbo – I sincerely hope the practice of selective comments and out of context edits stops. At some point, journalists should go talk with him and ask him how he feels about the topic. Nobody is beyond reproach when it comes to having harbored a bad idea. The question is, in the presence of new information, did the individual change her mind?

    The economy of doxxing is harmful to our pursuit of good ideas in the longer term.

    That said, what is religious combat and why is it bad?

  176. John Dale 2019-08-19

    And the first Republican to surrender his seat in Congress is?

    Long Island Rep. Pete King

  177. Porter Lansing 2019-08-19

    “Paid by the DEA to pass that petition.” — yet another accusation with absolutely no proof. *facepalm*
    ~ Mr. Dale knows as well as I do that exposing a DEA agent is a federal crime. However, he also knows that it’s perfectly legal to ask if someone is working for the DEA or any governmental agency. Should the answer be no then any subsequent action by that agent against an accused lawbreaker will be thrown out of court. That’s why agents won’t answer the question, backstroke around the issue, and try to misdirect the conversation.

  178. John Dale 2019-08-19

    But the premise if your strategy earlier was to not ask me, then accuse me of personalizing the non-question! :D

    If you’re asking me now, the answer is no. I am not law enforcement of any kind. As was pointed out, I am an independent software architect (and political commentariat :)

    I also made that statement on Spearfish City Limits recently. Go to https://PlainsTribune.com

    Have a nice day,

    John

  179. Debbo 2019-08-19

    As I said before about Dale,

    🎶That’s entertainment! 🎶

  180. bearcreekbat 2019-08-19

    Porter, do you have any authority for the proposition that if an accused lawbreaker asks if someone is working for the DEA or any governmental agency and

    . . . the answer [is] no then any subsequent action by that agent against an accused lawbreaker will be thrown out of court?

    I believe that this is a common misconception but is an incorrect statement of the law in every U.S., State and local jurisdiction. It is settled law that police are permitted to lie to a suspect during an interrogation and whatever evidence is obtained may be admitted in court.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/1290529?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    I am aware of no case law that has thrown out an arrest or indictment because an undercover cop lied when asked if he was a cop, or lied during an investigation. Indeed, that is a frequent police tactic for undercover strings, whether drug busts or sex trafficing cases.

    In United States v. Russell, 411 U.S. 423 (1973), for example, the undercover lied about whether he was a cop and even supplied some of the ingrediants for an illegal manufacture of drugs. The SCOTUS ruled that this was not entrapment, rather, it was a legitimate law enforcement technique.

    . . . Joe Shapiro, an undercover agent for the Federal Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs, went to respondent’s home on Whidbey Island in the State of Washington, where he met with respondent and his two codefendants, John and Patrick Connolly. Shapiro’s assignment was to locate a laboratory where it was believed that methamphetamine was being manufactured illicitly. He told the respondent and the Connollys that he represented an organization in the Pacific Northwest that was interested in controlling the manufacture and distribution of methamphetamine. . . .

    . . .

    [Affirming the conviction, the SCOTUS explained in part:]

    . . . In order to obtain convictions for illegally manufacturing drugs, the gathering of evidence of past unlawful conduct frequently proves to be an all but impossible task. Thus, in drug-related offenses, law enforcement personnel have turned to one of the only practicable means of detection: the infiltration of drug rings and a limited participation in their unlawful present practices. Such infiltration is a recognized and permissible means of investigation; if that be so, then the supply of some item of value that the drug ring requires must, as a general rule, also be permissible. For an agent will not be taken into the confidence of the illegal entrepreneurs unless he has something of value to offer them. Law enforcement tactics such as this can hardly be said to violate “fundamental fairness” or “shocking to the universal sense of justice,” . . . .

    https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/411/423/#tab-opinion-1950253

    To the best of my knowledge these principles currently are applied to all criminal cases, so if a suspect asks whether someone is a cop during an investigation and the cop lies, the suspect is still out of luck and has not obtained a defense to criminal charges based on the cop’s lie.

  181. Porter Lansing 2019-08-19

    BCB … I knew that. But, many who are just working with the feds to get a reduced sentence or become a volunteer don’t. It’s a legitimate interrogation technique, depending on whom you’re trying to get a read on.

  182. mike from iowa 2019-08-19

    Shapiro’s assignment was to locate a laboratory where it was believed that methamphetamine was being manufactured illicitly.

    Seriously, you can manufacture meth licitly?

  183. John Dale 2019-08-19

    So, your claim is that I’m a DEA agent.

    My claim is that you’re very misinformed.

    But, if you go out and tell that lie enough, there are bound to be people who believe you in the shorter term.

    In the longer term, however, it will really erode your credibility.

    You obviously don’t have the connections to find-out for real.

    Seems to me that the DEA wouldn’t want to legalize, so they would be the ones most likely to spread that rumor.

    As it states on my website, the precursor to the DEA is responsible for the prohibition in the first place, since they needed the money. Alcohol was de-prohibited, and the feds were scrambling to save law enforcement jobs.

    I get into some of that detail here:
    https://PlainsTribune.com/cc4l

    The DEA thing is very strange.

    And I guess .. entertaining.

    Meanwhile, Debbo compares Miller to Goebbels.

    ““If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” — Joseph Goebbels

    I’ve heard that the neo-left is 100% corrupt and willing to do anything to preserve power .. I think this DEA line of inquiry proves it.

    That said, I appreciate and agree with the sentiment that agents can lie and it means nothing.

    Of course, anyone with more clout than a fart in a whirlwind would realize that I’m not a DEA agent. That is a lie, and insinuating it is Goebbels level propaganda.

    Any of you chicken sh*ts want to call into my radio program and discuss it?

  184. Porter Lansing 2019-08-19

    A lie, huh? We’ll see, young stranger. We’ll see …

  185. grudznick 2019-08-19

    Mr. Dale has a radio program? What channel is that on?

  186. John Dale 2019-08-20

    grudznick – “what channel is that on”

    Wow, whoever said this forum has very old people contributing wasn’t joking around.

    I’m on channel Spearfish City Limits of the station https://PlainsTribune.com world-wide on The Internet Radio Broadcast Tower.

    Porter Lansing – “We’ll see, young stranger.” If its any consolation, I’m 44 going on 90.

    “Sanity and happiness are an impossible combination.” — Mark Twain

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