Earlier this month, I explained the World Professional Association for Transgender Health’s standards of care for transgender youth that render Rep. Fred Deutsch’s (R-4/Florence) proposed youth-sex-change-operation ban a practically useless exercise in Christian-fundagelical grandstanding.
Now WPATH weighs in with this formal statement on calls to ban evidence-based supportive health interventions for transgender youth. WPATH reiterates that experienced health care providers are best positioned to study each case and work with patients and their families to determine what interventions if any are appropriate. The statement refutes claims like the utter fabrication issued by one speaker at the Heritage Foundation/Family Policy Alliance summit Rep. Deutsch attended in October that “thousands” of people regret getting “caught up in this madness” of reassignment surgery (see 2:19:00 in the video). WPATH says responsible medical interventions reduce future regret, and more “regret” may be caused by the grief prejudiced Sharia freaks like Deutsch pile onto transgender neighbors:
Some critics have claimed high rates of regret regarding irreversible treatments or procedures such as reconstructive surgeries, implying that children are forced to undergo treatments they may regret. There are no studies to support these claims. However, recent studies show only a very small percentage of people who undergo gender transition as adults (when irreversible procedures may be administered) regret doing so: roughly 1-3%, which is a small number compared with rates of regret reported for much more common procedures. Most people who have regrets do so because of a lack of support or acceptance from their family, social groups, work, or other organizations. Conversely, the benefits that these medically necessary interventions have for the overwhelming majority of youth whose identities are incongruent with their sex assigned at birth are well-documented. Providers who collaboratively assess youths’ understanding of themselves, their gender identity, and their ability to make informed decisions regarding medical/surgical interventions (which are not offered prior to puberty, and never without the youth’s assent) play a very important role in minimizing future regret [WPATH, “Statement in Response to Calls for Banning Evidence-Based Supportive Health Interventions for Transgender and Gender-Diverse Youth,” 2019.11.22].
WPATH also reverses the charge made at the conference Rep. Deutsch attended (see 1:11:30, 1:12:20, 2:15:45, 2:17:30, 2:43:20) that even talking to kids about gender identity, not to mention performing supportive health interventions, is child abuse:
Some critics have called ‘gender care’ “child abuse”; providing care for a transgender child or adolescent is a serious undertaking which respects the best interests of each individual child. Withdrawing care for all transgender youth or adults or threatening to criminalize conscientious healthcare providers who work with transgender patients or clients using evidence-based care is a clear abuse of administrative and legislative power. Legislation that opposes needed treatment is of grave concern as it sustains harmful misconceptions about transgender youth and adults, as well as gender transition processes in general, and also devalues medical protocols, thus driving more people to seek services from providers who are willing to ignore the validated protocols that encourage responsible care [WPATH, 2019.11.22].
The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry agrees, stating earlier this month, “Blocking access to timely care has been shown to increase youths’ risk for suicidal ideation and other negative mental health outcomes.”
Expect these statements and others to be entered into the record by conscientious health care professionals trying to stop the harm Rep. Deutsch and other legislative abusers want to do to people who differ from them.
Newsweek just published this…..(actually five days ago)
https://www.newsweek.com/transgender-kids-living-identity-develop-cis-children-1471729
Trans children who live as the gender they identify with act and develop similarly to their cisgender counterparts, according to a new study.
https://www.vox.com/2019/11/22/20977721/south-carolina-trans-transgender-youth-gender-reassignment
South Carolina wants to ban lifesaving medical treatments for trans kids
It’s part of a bigger push around the country.
A growing trend.
Cory,
Aside from the excellent writing and thoughtful commentary, I think the tag of “child abuse” on this post is spot on. Cheers!
FeelingBlue … My research uncovered that Fred Deutsch suffered abuse as a child and (as is normal, without psychological therapy) adults with this malady almost always try to pass it on to other people’s kids. Sick individuals thrive behind South Dakota’s “White Curtain”.
Seems that most republican policy desires are focused between the navel and the knees.
Deutsch is the worst.
Is the SDGOP composed exclusively of frustrated doctor-wannabes obsessed with sex?
This kind of legislation attempting to control the lives of children, trans people and women does illustrate that there is no dog whistle the GOP won’t blow in pursuit of power and wealth. The resultant suffering is apparently merely collateral damage and irrelevant to them.
I really detest this cruel stuff they do.
First off we don’t know what’s in their heart on this issue. You’re seeing it as their ignorant, ruthless attempt to withhold treatment, but just take a step back. I’ve kept reading on this subject which has reinforced my initial, skeptical reactions. The problem is there are actually very few studies done but it’s become an accepted treatment, now given very quickly, after one or two therapeutic sessions some people report they are given the label and the drugs. Both have long term consequences. In most cases I agree this is sanctioned child abuse because cited studies show young kids who “want” to be the other sex grow out of it. This is different from those who absolutely insist they are the other sex. Maybe there is a different physiology, but they’re just charging forth recklessly without knowing. And let’s be clear “born this way” is an untrue statement, for trans and it’s also completely unproven with gay people. I attended a seminar given by Simon LeVay when he completed his work on the hypothalamus the audience was mostly excited because of the political implications but my ex was gay, and his two brothers. Each were sexually abused as children by their older brother. What are the odds 3 of 4 boys would be born gay. No, it was the abuse. This is simply all much more complex than we know. In my reading some have likened Transgender, not the cases Deb has mentioned of ambiguous genitalia, to Body Integrity Identify Disorder. In this disorder people feel a normal, functioning body part should not be on their body. They feel this so strongly they seek out unscrupulous surgeons to remove a hand, arm, leg, etc. If they can’t find a surgeon they damage their own body part so badly that it must be amputated. I think this condition is most apt to the Transgender diagnosis, cause I’ll repeat, there’s nothing wrong with this kids. It’s a social disease. Their dis-ease comes from perception, how they are perceived, so to encourage this wave of Transgender treatment is child abusive. In fact it’s madness. The society is the one who is sick and needs to become tolerant and nonjudgemental of childhood differences. Would any of you condone “treating” someone with BIID and agree to cut off their leg? I hope not. The same applies to Transgender. So while I don’t know what’s in their heart, I don’t support widespread Transgender treatment. Read about it. Caution has been thrown in the wind your support of this treatment is ill-advised, or perhaps simply more motivated as a way to attack the right. In either case the kids are the ones who are suffering but you’re no knight in shining armor on their behalf. You’re just part of the problem. Just as ignorant in my view with motives that should be questioned.
https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/biid
Hap, let’s not let both-sidesism distract us from the salient fact: WPATH and health care professionals have the best interest of children as its focus. They have professional standards of care and real medical research, not our suppositions, suspicions, casual Googlings, and occasional attendance at radical ideological conferences to guide their actions. They are far better equipped to evaluate these matters than part-time legislators making blanket laws.
I’m not advocating any particular treatment; I’m advocating that parents and health care professionals—real doctors—discuss and decide what treatment if any to pursue, not quack back-crackers and other big-government yahoos with Sharia-for-Jesus ships on their shoulders.
Except that’s not the case Cory. There are many stories written by those who later desist and they say it was WAY TOO EASY to begin transition. It used to take years now places will even do the surgery quite quickly if you can pay out of pocket, and to say we must believe the professionals is poppycock. They’re not doing much research it’s become so politized people are afraid to even express caution or be called a bigot so the politics is forcing treatment. You have to wear your skeptical hat, and no way do you give yourself or your children over to the prevailing thoughts of “health care professionals” which change on a whim. So while I agree part-time legislators dictating standards of care is a scary thought so is cutting off a penis, or quickly telling everyone your child Jane is now John, giving them drugs, etc. Many years ago I took all the higher up psych classes in preparation to apply to a master’s program. Things happen, later I became very good friends with a surgeon. A Urologist. He insisted most psychologists and psychiatrists are the nuttiest people on earth my professors certainly were and I explained the electroshock treatments that pretty much destroyed my mother, so no, you put that skeptical hat back on (or is it just politics for you). I think that is the case much of the time these kids are being used as pawns. My gay friends are also skeptical privately but today you have to keep your mouth shut or they pounce on you.
And also Cory, when you read more, you find a lot of Transgenders are working in therapeutic capacities, in the university systems, and they are advocating for this treatment. That’s a sick person with an obvious huge bias, but interestingly, they want it to remain an illness, because as long as it is categorized that way insurance will cover it. The emperor ain’t wearin no clothes baby!!!
Cory one more thing I was just thinking about. You write very authoritatively and want and almost insist other people believe what you say. And, you’re an atheist. I’ve decided that’s not possible. That’s just dogma, and you show us how you use your own dogma, and then reference other authority figures to tell us we must think this way. No. Just more dogma woof woof woof. Back to agnostic. As others say that’s really the only reasonable position cause you never express any doubt. Not good. By the way, if you have Netflix Doubt is a good movie. Off to go make America great!!!
From a rational evidentiary perspective in evaluating professionals, people who arbitrarily make or repeat statements like “most psychologists and psychiatrists are the nuttiest people on earth” quickly undermine their general credibility.
Unless there’s some truth to it BCB I know how stupid I sound. I was repeating what my doctor friend had to say about it, but as much as I loved my classes and fellow students, when I looked around I realized there were a lot of troubled souls that went into psychology and much of what he had to say was true. I was thinking and wondering today why is it that so many people embrace absolutes, and looking back when Cory challenged the agnostics to get off the fence and stand for something (my language), I realize now it is a very logical position to stand for doubt. Doubt in the right dosage. We can’t prove the Big G doesn’t exist. We can be highly skeptical but we can’t be 100%. It seems to me Cory (and my recent embrace of the concept) show a willingness to be absolute about things we can’t be absolute which puts into question everything else that person purports to know. Even in literature our teachers regularly talked about the dangers of dogma. Seems to me this is something we should be willing to explore. Probably it comes from insecurity. Why can’t you live with a little bit of doubt? Or a whole lot of doubt since most things remain unknown. Wouldn’t that be healthy? Same goes for the religious and their attraction to it. We should beware of people who can’t stand doubt. Good movie too.
OK. So if you’ll permit me a story BCB. In high school our science teacher was telling a story. Many years earlier he asked the class how should a person go about putting their car in the garage when they know it will fit but they are scared because it seems daunting. One of the kids from south the tracks raised his hand and said: Just look at the left side and your side mirror, if that clears then you know the car will enter. Then the class burst with laughter at the “stupid” kid at the bottom of the barrel even though his advice was sound. So much of this prevailing thought which is entirely stupid comes from people at the top of a hierarchy who actually might not know nothing. But they have letters behind their name, or they’re rich, or whatever.
Two things:
1. “And let’s be clear ‘born this way’ is an untrue statement, for trans and it’s also completely unproven with gay people.”
Not so for LBG. Check the research.
2. HC, thanks for being so clear about the fact that you have lots of issues around this topic. You’ve mentioned your mother several times, your college class experiences, your judgement of your classmates, your conversations with your friends, conversations with an M.D., etc.
We’ve all got our biases, just like you do. That’s why there is a need to rely on scientifically conducted studies, rather than personal experience and anecdotal stories. HC, you’re not credible on this topic, but I’ll continue to read and consider your comments as coming from your perspective. They have value seen in that light.
I know the research Deb and you’re wrong. There’s no current way of biologically proving trans or gay are born. Simon LeVay’s research showed a correlation without causation. There is no gay gene. I’ve mentioned my mother’s experience only twice now out of relevancy, my class experience for the first time, as well as my Urologist friend’s skepticism about psychology. This is just your way to dimish what I say, but go right ahead apparently it’s what you need to do. However we can agree on the need for more reliable scientific studies in addition to our own anecdotal experiences. After extensive reading there is not enough evidence to back your positions. You’re not credible. I believe your heart is in the right place, but after the penis is gone, the penis is gone. The regrets are real.
Ms. Geelsdottir is probably one of the best experts in this area in the midwestern blogging area. I listen to her on this topic.
happy camper, ALL of us who are apt to comment on this subject have done a whole lot of reading and have continued our research and our learning on the issue. In addition, some of us have had real, life to life, face to face experiences with real people.
You’re welcome to your opinion HC, and your opinion has value. I have no hard feelings toward you on this.
The kid who knew how to put the car in the garage safely was probably someone who had actually done it more than once.
And when you’re telling Deb that she’s wrong, you are being an absolutist about things that you claim no one can be absolute.
And also when you say “born this way is an untrue statement” and “there is no gay gene” is absolutism. Because we don’t know if what you believe is true or not. I’m not saying there is or isn’t, just that we don’t know. Believe it or not there are LOTS of things that we don’t know for certain.
There is a significant difference between “absolutism” and evaluation of available credible evidence in coming to a factual conclusion on an issue. As best I can tell, Cory generally seems to follow the latter path, not the former.
And Robin appears to be correct that we do not yet have conclusive research results that would support the assertions that people are “born this way is an untrue statement” and “there is no gay gene.” As she points out these are absolutist assertions and they appear contrary to published information about research in the field.
For example, a 2017 Reuters Science News report indicates that transgender research continues and describes research results that are inconsistent with such negative absolute claims, even if not yet conclusive on the biological causation inquiry.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lgbt-biology/born-this-way-researchers-explore-the-science-of-gender-identity-idUSKBN1AJ0F0
Robin is correctly pointing out my error. I watched a good long interview with three professionals who pointed out there has been research on transgender twins which showed NO correlation. These three are also very distressed because they feel huge pressure on the medical community to embrace and “treat” anyone who comes into their office by self-diagnosis. As he says, in what other circumstance can anyone, especially a child, say I’m the other gender and demand a treatment. They repeat what I’ve read elsewhere, the follow-up research is very spotty with no long-term studies of sufficient quality to show this is successful treatment, and there’s not sufficient evidence to be treating all these kids in mass numbers never seen before. They differ very much from Deb’s position that kids know what they are at a young age (again not the small sliver this treatment may be appropriate). When 80 to 90 percent of young kids (not later adults more like to persist) grow out of their dysphoria, then the affirmation we talked about earlier is also inappropriate. I thought that meant “you’re just fine the way you are” not we’ll start calling you a different name and encourage you to dress differently. These three work in the field and see how well-meaning therapists and educators are either so laissez-faire or now actually encouraging early transition, scaring parents they’ll be suicidal without the treatment they’re almost being pushed into it. They feel it’s gone way, way beyond what can be justified not to mention all the medical risks starting with puberty blockers (inappropriate to call totally reversible). I’ll put the link below. You won’t like that it comes from The Heritage Foundation, but as she says it’s not at all political to them and if you listen you realize they are just very caring and concerned health care professionals. All three MDs one is a psychiatrist. Also, there’s a site started by therapists with similar concerns who gave a good interview (second link) their blog is private. The public isn’t hearing this side because of the politics of the issue. They call it trans orthodoxy. If you read that interview it seems very reasoned not coming from an extremist in any way. A dangerous trend has been embraced. My opinion.
Over one hour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOniPhuyXeY
https://4thwavenow.com/2016/04/05/do-no-harm-an-interview-with-the-founder-of-youth-trans-critical-professionals/
It’s long been observed that gay men have a mean streak towards lesbians that isn’t reciprocated. Many call it misplaced “self-loathing”. Gay men are now appearing less and less likely to stand up and speak out on behalf of the transgender community as that community finds itself dodging everything from military bans, word bans and over 100 pieces of anti-trans legislation proposed to alienate them from greater society.
https://medium.com/@Phaylen/why-are-more-gay-men-turning-on-transgender-people-14612aa2d831
I recommend Chapelle’s special, “STICKS and STONES”. The car bit is highly controversial but points out the statement I made about gay men’s mean streak towards other “alphabet people”, as he labels them.
https://www.thewrap.com/lgbtq-comedians-respond-to-dave-chappelles-sticks-and-stones/amp/
Oh goodness Porter if that is a poke at me lesbians are my best friends I’ve long joked I’m a lesbian trapped in a gay man’s body saying that cause I’m so fond of them. They were my childhood heroes too the ones I saw were so self-assured working for the cause. But, if you care about children, like I assume you and others here do, as Robin said continued learning and openmindedness is a requirement. I hope you and others will watch the three physicians in the first link who address each transgender fallacy one by one. I sense no politics or religion in what they say they’re focused on the science and say it simply isn’t there just ideology and the risks are not being explained. That’s caring about the children and putting them first. That’s the only thing that should matter. Their long term success and happiness.
You can turn any comment into being about yourself, should you choose. However, it’s about a large group of latents in SD including grudznick and Fred Deutsch who’ve made attacking trans people of any age their “self loathing” surface mission.
Being curious about happy’s you tube link, I discovered a couple interesting details that might be of interest in evaluating the credibility of the arguments presented in the link. First, I want to acknowledge that that medical professionals can and often do have differing opinions about the nature of many issues, including the biological causes, if any, of LBGTQ people. Hence it may be overly optomistic to claim any particular facts about the LGBTQ community are conclusive based upon finding a supporting professional opinion or two, rather than considering a concensus among professionals in general.
In addition, the fact that the link is presented by the Heritage Foundation may be a red flag to some, but by itself is clearly not sufficient to discredit anything in the link without considering the information in the link and the background of the presenters.
Here, the professional “leading the discussion” is Dr. Ryan Anderson, who has a long list of credits. Media matters, however, reports that
https://www.mediamatters.org/legacy/meet-ryan-anderson-anti-lgbt-scholar-peddling-junk-science-national-media
The psychiatrist on the panel is Dr. Allan Josephson. USA’s Courier Journal reports:
https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2019/03/29/anti-lgbt-comments-university-of-louisville-professor-sues-over-demotion/3300002002/
Given this information, it seems reasonable to approach statements and assertions by either of these professionals with some caution.
Checking out bias of sources is relatively easy to do and should warning signs appear, the prudent course would be to not use them as sources.
drumpf has screwed the pooch with alternative facts and blatant outright lies. It has spread across wingnuts like wildfire. But being wrong is still wrong, regardless if you think it is fale noize.
But this is a problem. Whenever there is information that challenges our biases we look for a way to dismiss it. BCB is being prudent, but this prudence should be extended in all directions by the way, it’s so bad in days gone by I always tried to only use a source this audience would embrace (like Huffpost). However on this polarized issue, which should not be polarized only scientific, these folks are making the point it’s difficult to even discuss alternative ideas, therapies, or treatments because they will be professionally ostracized or fired. I’m not saying that’s what here but he explained back in 2017 the power of trans activism. That’s why the other therapeutic blog is operating behind a closed door. There are almost no open minds which was why I told my own story of dating a guy (for a year), he and his three brothers all became gay after being molested by their oldest brother. This oldest brother also molested their sister throughout high school. He was also raped when he was 7 by older boys. I know this is an ugly story, but three brothers, and I’m calling the oldest straight because he went on to marry and have kids my boyfriend did not think he had further relations with males. It’s statisitically beyond the stratosphere that 3 of 4 boys were born gay. I’m also not saying some kids aren’t born gay, but I remember the politics well from when I was more active myself. Everyone was thrilled with LeVay’s research cause it was a weapon against the far right and needed to be absolute which is how it was presented. We were able to say see, his research shows a different size hypothalamus in gay men the same size as women, and it was effective, but it’s also not the full story. That’s why if the doc in the video was right, that trans kids with an identical twin do not correlate trans, that at least in those cases, they are not born trans. But activists don’t like muddy water, but we have to accept muddy water cause this is about their health and welfare. That’s all that matters.
And transgender women are still being murdered on the streets of big cities for no reason other than who they are. This must stop. What is required for this to stop is education to STOP THE HATE. Thank you for your research, bcb.
That’s the monstrous thing. People can have whatever issues they want about transgenderism, be creeped out, upset, angry. But KILL them? For what?! Existing?! The people who do that need to be locked up for a long long time. 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
The lack of tolerance is completely unacceptable and the violence abhorrent. A sick society, but the physician fired was due to his appearance in that video. He did not say anything without compassion. The first guy BCB mentioned (with an agenda) only did introductions and was not part of the panel it’s not a reason to throw out what the other professionals had to say. His firing is only further concern that no questioning is tolerated. Reading more I am more distressed by the lack of follow up. In the U.K. a psychotherapist wanted to study the level of regret after a physician began expressing concern by the increased rate of reversal surgery. Ultimately his university would not allow him to do the work although he was himself very supportive of transgender rights and had helped hundreds transition. There are way too many questions without answers. Why have so many girls on the autism spectrum wanted to transition? Those numbers have exploded. Is the 80% number correct that young kids will simply outgrow their dysphoria? They say treatment started at an early age sends them down a path that’s hard to reverse. I find myself supporting cautious legislation because the limited studies are all over the place and there is palpable fear of exploring anything that is counter to the trans narrative. My sister emailed me earlier to tell me about one of her best friends kids who has transitioned and remains so unhappy. As a girl she would twist and mangle her breasts but she’s no happier now. In many cases I’m not convinced we are helping these kids or much worse. If it’s such a positive outcome why wouldn’t studies be encouraged? Obviously they should be a mandatory requirement regardless. I will probably tell Deutsch this gay is full of concerns and unanswered questions. I don’t know his motives, but they may actually be on a wiser path of caution. I don’t know what’s in his heart but I am in no way convinced we are doing right by these kids. It looks reckless and in many cases harmful. Very harmful. Do not harm. Below is the link from the UK.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4979498/James-Caspian-attacked-transgender-children-comments.html
I’m sorry, I forgot to include this quote from the article:
‘It wasn’t so much that there seemed to be increasing numbers of younger people, particularly females, transitioning, but that there were so many of them who seemed to be later reversing the transition.
‘Some of those young women were saying they felt they’d made a mistake, but had been influenced by a kind of social movement ramped up by the internet.
‘When I talked to colleagues about what I was finding, one said: ‘I didn’t think we were supposed to talk about that.’
Discussion is being suppressed by a small, but vocal, minority in the LGBT community who seem to have an agenda to push the boundaries of trans rights whatever the cost. It is why this research was important.
‘I think we’ve arrived at a point as a society where people are afraid to say what they think, and that’s not a good thing in my field.’
happy, are you aware of any other laws that categorically prohibit other types of surgery or medical treatment on children?
I am unaware of such laws. Even existing law that empowers state intervention to protect or preserve the life of a child, such as in cases where there are religious objections to medically necessary blood transfusions, seem to be limited to case by case situations based on findings about individual medical needs rather than a “one-size-fits all” political judgment. Legislation targeting only trans groups tends to stink of irrational religious or social prejudice and an intent to legalize governmental discrimination.
And does the reference to “an agenda to push the boundaries of trans rights” mean seeking rights beyond or different than the rights of cisgender indivduals? Again, I am unaware of such a movement and objections to equal trans rights raise prejudice and discrimination issues.
It just seems more appropriate to leave medical decisions to individual circumstances and trust courts to follow existing child protection laws and intervene when determined to be necessary to prevent harmful medical decisions if and when the appropriateness of any medical procedure becomes an issue in an individual case.
Instead of discriminatory laws, perhaps public funding for educational programs for parents and medical professionals addressing the benefits versus dangers of trans medical treatment might be a more appropriate legislative objective.
What I would have been inclined to say BCB, last night, is it is ok for the law to step in if medicine is not taking the proper precautions. I do think treatment has been greatly affected by trans activism which obvioulsy has a bias, BUT, on the Heritage Foundation video the first MD is part of The American College of Pediatricians which is a nut case group. And Hruz (the second) I found elsewhere saying something like transgender could be resolved if they embraced the image of god. Ugh. He’s the one who specifically reiterated it was all about the science. What’s so sad at least some of their data appears accurate I googled specifics, like transgenders with an identical twin, only 1/3 of the twins are also transgender. That’s meaningful, shows they are not all born that way, but it pretty much throws out their entire presentation because they are activists and not objective (though the same applies to trans activism). The data presented from each side is so polar opposite that at this moment I’m left mainly with great ambivalence. As well as anger toward those turkeys, myself for falling it, but the same towards the medical community which still, consistently from what I’ve read, does not do enough research and follow up studies. I’m left thinking I have much more to learn on the topic before drawing any conclusion, and even those conclusions should be regularly reevaluated.