A jury in Arizona has stopped Donald Trump’s persecution of Christian values at the U.S.-Mexico border:
When Scott Daniel Warren was arrested last year after allegedly providing food, water, beds and clean clothes to undocumented immigrants near Arizona’s Sonoran Desert, the question was whether he had broken the law or upheld it.
…Arrested by Border Patrol agents in January 2018 at a property offering aid for immigrants in Ajo, Ariz., he was accused of helping border-crossers evade authorities, which is prohibited under federal law.
The activist faced up to 20 years in prison on charges of harboring and conspiring to transport undocumented immigrants.
…Deciding who Warren is and what he did proved a task too tortuous for jurors, who said on Tuesday they remained deadlocked in their deliberations and could not reach a unanimous verdict [Isaac Stanley-Becker, “An Activist Faced 20 Years in Prison for Helping Migrants. But Jurors Wouldn’t Convict Him,” Washington Post, 2019.06.12].
Scott Warren is relieved that the jury chose humanitarianism over the inhumanity of the Trump Administration:
In the time since I was arrested in January 2018, no fewer than 88 bodies were recovered from the Arizona desert. The government’s plan in the midst of this humanitarian crisis? Policies to target undocumented people, refugees, and their families. Prosecutions to criminalize humanitarian aid, kindness, and solidarity. And now, the revelation that they will build an enormous and expensive wall across a vast stretch of southwestern Arizona’s unbroken Sonoran Desert.
Today it remains as necessary as ever for local residents and humanitarian aid volunteers to stand in solidarity with migrants and refugees. And we must also stand for our families, friends, and neighbors—and the very land itself—most threatened by the militarization of our borderland communities.
I’ve received enormous support from family, friends, and community. Thank you and I love you all so very, very much. If you can, get some rest and take some time for yourself! But the other men arrested with me that day, Jose Sacaria-Goday and Kristian Perez-Villanueva, have not received the attention and outpouring of support that I have. I do not know how they are doing now, but I do hope they are safe [Scott Warren, statement, 2019.06.11].
Let America Be America Again: let Americans of good conscience show compassion and aid to people in need.
“In the time since I was arrested in January 2018, no fewer than 88 bodies were recovered from the Arizona desert.”
This action will result in thousands more. Stay home, Central and South America. Your home countries need you fighting for humanity there!
Trump takes hostages as a matter of business planning. He is a “businessman”. Freeloading con-man/boy. IMPEACH THE MTHRFKER.
Robocallers have taken all our telephones hostage. Freeloaders as a part of their business plan. And we pay the bills for their advertising.
Thousands of robo-emails render my mail service inreliable. I pay to allow these freeloaders to jam my inbox.
Snail mail, crucial for essential communication, is jammed up by freeloader advertising. We sibsidize this once reliable massive system that used our roads, fossil fuels, favors veterans, and we pay the freight.
Smells like socialism for freeloader
Capitalism is built on freeloaders. Regulate communication and return it to the purpose we pay for as an essential utility. I dont needed unsolicited communication, and before 7am!
RFTD (c) “rant for the day”
I respect the opinions of people who are working to change our immigration laws, but I believe making it easier for illegal aliens to flout the laws we have in place today will ultimately lead to a net loss of human life and liberty and isn’t inherently compassionate or Christian.
Helping suffering people seeking asylum in USA is inherently compassionate and Christian.
The inability to reach a verdict is great step for all people of good will and decency, in addition to being very Jesusy.
That keeping people from dying is regarded as a political and criminal act reflects the reality of the GOP and the gross distortion of Christianity by the religious wrong.
Drumpf knows this for a fact: Immigrants cutting through Mexico trying to reach America are not bound to seek asylum in Mexico as it has never been declared a safe haven for refugees. Mexico cannot protect her own citizens let alone others.
The US, under Drumpf, is flouting US and international laws by denying asylum seekers entry into America. Then Drumpf and his goons lie about these people getting more benefits than US citizens when they get here, when in fact most don’t get access to certain benefits until they have been here five years.
And no, George Soros is not paying these people to come here.
Kurt, if I meet a thirsty person, am I obliged to ask to see that person’s papers before offering that person a drink of water?
This. This. This is exactly how a church should respond to sexual abuse. (Looking directly at you,RCC, but others too.)
Kurt, I can find no reference to whether or not the person helped is illegal, criminal or anything else. And please remember, applying for refugee status is not a criminal act. Ever.
‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’
“The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
“Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
“Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:32-46)
I believe you, Eve, have settled it. Thank you.
Of course not, but if a man who hasn’t eaten for two weeks bursts out of a bank with a bag of cash, am I obliged by Christ’s teachings to offer him a ride to a restaurant?
Eve Fisher writes:
The Washington Post refers to the people helped as “undocumented immigrants,” which seems to be the political left’s preferred euphemism for illegal aliens.
I believe one can apply for refugee status at legal ports of entry, and I believe Daniel Warren was accused of helping illegal aliens avoid ports of entry.
“Kurt Evans” tells big fat fibs about his concerns for his fellow Christians. Those folks are not “illegal” They’re your God’s children. They worship Jesus Christ, just like you do, only they’re Catholic and brownies. What was God thinking, right “Kurt Evans”?
“jerry” writes to me:
Some of them probably are.
Roman Catholics don’t worship Christ just like I do. Allegiance to the pope is a potential political problem, but skin color in itself isn’t.
You don’t have to be a Christian or even a follower of any particular religion to know what the difference between right and wrong.
This country has far too many laws that are morally wrong or corrupt and most immigration laws are among them.
Not being particularly religious I do share Eve’s comment as it does lean to the common decency that all men and women should have toward their fellow man.
Roger Cornelius writes:
Then let’s work to change the law, but in the meantime let’s stop baiting people to die in the desert.
Jihad “Kurt Evans” How do you worship Jesus? You make a mockery out of the whole failed concept of religion. Skin color is your problem “Kurt Evans” just like the rest of you fakers. When you come to the realization that all men and women are created equal in the eyes of your religion, then we can make progress. In the meantime, you’re just ISIS with a crew cut.
Meanwhile “Kurt Evans” and those he actually follows, are doing pretty danged good. What would the baby Jesus say about wealth and why people die in the desert? https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/06/14/eye-popping-analysis-shows-top-1-gained-21-trillion-wealth-1989-while-bottom-half
“stop baiting people to die in the desert”, just what does that mean? Kurt’s explanation should be rich.
Oh great. 🙄 Now we’re going to get endless long, longer and very long comments, quotes, dodges, and so on, all ending up far, far out in the weeds, from Ad Nauseum. Ugh.
I know, Debbo, we will most likely find more UFO’s out there in the desert.
“jerry” writes to me:
Yes, the Founding Fathers’ solemn declaration that we’re all created equal and endowed with rights by our Creator is rooted in the Bible.
Probably nothing. Babies don’t talk.
Roger Cornelius writes:
Stop saying and doing things that entice vulnerable people to risk their lives attempting dangerous illegal border-crossings.
No one is baiting people, they are seeking asylum, which is legal process granted to all migrants.
Roger Cornelius writes:
Jerry is right – “Those folks are not “illegal.” Labeling people “illegal” has only two reasonable explanations: (1) the name is designed and used to denigrate,dehumanize and/or inflict pain on people; or (2) the name is mindlessly repeated with no thought about whether it harms others.
It cannot be justified by asserting that it is used to identify people accused or convicted of breaking the law since virtually every single one of us has violated the law at one time or another. Indeed, I watched the SD governor debates and recall that neither Kurt nor anyone else ever once referred to Noem as an “illegal” anything despite her public record of multiple convictions for violating laws.
The simple fact is that no immigrant nor asylum seeker is any more “illegal” than any other person in the USA, regardless when, where or how they cross the border.
One more point – anyone who actually thinks about it would never assert that people in the US should
Water and food are not an enticement to cross the border. Rather, the enticement is the belief that the USA provides freedom, safety and economic opportunity for people. The idea that anyone should stop making the USA a place of freedom, safety and economic opportunity to discourage immigration is at odds with the Country’s culture. And I recall no such biblical command.
Kurt wrote “Eve Fisher writes: Kurt, I can find no reference to whether or not the person helped is illegal, criminal or anything else. The Washington Post refers to the people helped as “undocumented immigrants,” which seems to be the political left’s preferred euphemism for illegal aliens.”
I was speaking of what Jesus said in Matthew 25: Jesus made no distinction as to who we should feed/water/house/clothe/visit, etc. based on legality, criminality or anything else.
Regarding the whole thing about ports of entry, I quote:
First from https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/asylum-united-states
“Asylum seekers who arrive at a U.S. port of entry or enter the United States without inspection generally must apply through the defensive asylum process. Both processes require the asylum seeker to be physically present in the United States.”
And from the U.S. Code: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158
“Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section…”
In other words, this whole thing about people can’t come into the United States except at ports of entry, etc., to apply for asylum is NOT what the law actually says. Granted, the ultra-right-wing are trying to say that’s the law, but it’s not what the U.S. Code says.
On bank robbers and rides to the restaurant:
The analogy to robbery is flawed. Entering the United States without documents is a victimless crime. No one loses anything from the act of a person stepping across the border from Mexico to the U.S.
My question remains and is reinforced by the flawed analogy to robbers: if I meet any person in the desert, am I obliged to not only ask that person’s immigration status but also investigate whether that person has committed any crime? And if my inquiry gives me reasonable suspicion (and remember, we’re not even talking due process here with presumption of innocence overcome by a judicial determination of guilt) that the person in need has somehow transgressed, am I not only absolved of any Samaritan imperative but criminally liable if I act on my Samaritan imperative nonetheless?
Jesus gave comfort to a thief on the cross. Can Christians not do the same to migrants in the desert?
As for bank robbers – if Kurt found one lying bleeding on the ground after being shot trying to escape would it be appropriate to call an ambulance or take other measures to save his life, or do Kurt’s Christian ethics suggest instead that “he stand there laughing while [the robber] curled up and died?”
Indeed, wouldn’t Kurt’s theory suggest that providing life saving medical care would only encourage him to attempt more bank robberies?
Good framing of the question, BCB. When Christianity directs adherents to care for others, how many “ifs” and exceptions does it place on that direction?
That’s the really hard thing about Christ and “Christ”ianity. Jesus demonstrated by his words and actions that there are no limits. It simply does not matter what the individual is doing, what they look like, where they’re from, what their skin color is, IQ, politics, income, motivation, age, ability….. nothing.
Us humans are born with a desire to categorize, separate, name, place varying values and so forth. We protect our group to protect ourselves and our progeny.
Jesus would have none of that. Period.
All Christians are called by Jesus to emulate him to the best of their abilities, regardless of denomination, including “traditional bible Christians,” or anything else anyone chooses to call themselves.
What Wilted Weenie chooses to do for political expediency is simply that, and Christianity cannot be twisted to support his and the GOP’s actions.
I haven’t used the word illegal as a label or a name. I’ve used it as an adjective to describe people who aren’t legal residents.
I don’t know whether Kristi Noem ever drove on public highways without a valid license, but if she did, she was presumably an illegal driver.
Eve Fisher writes:
I didn’t say it was, but if they were really planning to apply for asylum, why would they avoid legal ports of entry and risk their lives attempting dangerous illegal border crossings?
“happy camper” comments (possibly under the wrong post):
We have multiple bad policies.
Cory had asked:
It’s a question, not an analogy.
Would you say all trespassing is victimless? Would you say anyone loses anything when a person steps from the sidewalk into your driveway, or from your driveway into your garage, or from your garage into your house?
Your question remains answered. Mine remains unanswered.
“Kurt Evans” writes more gibberish in defense of his racism and hate for Catholics. “Kurt Evans” lives up to his moniker “ISIS with a crew cut” by slamming the acquittal of what most would call, a Christian approach to the care of immigrants.
Evans has once again been backed into the corner by Cory’s and Bear’s intellect. Turn around Kurt and face the wall.
There are a few things DFP has in abundance. One is a beautiful platform to speak your mind. Another is total doofuses who think they’re literally the smartest person on the planet. Combine the two and you get some pretty pitiful action by totally un-self-aware folks trying as hard as they can to tell the world that they’re brilliant.
Just to clarify, when referring to another person as an “illegal” it matters nor whether the term is used as a noun or adjective, the result is the same – intentional dehumanization of that person. Use it if you hate or just don’t care about other people, but distinguishing it as an “adjective” rather than a noun doesn’t make its use any less hateful or harmful.
And as best I can tell using the term “illegal” as an adjective to describe a person is an incorrect of the term, as the adjective “illegal” describes actions rather than nouns.
Apparently, the hateful term “illegal immigrant” was coined by Nazi’s to describe Jewish people attempting to escape Nazi holocaust. Hollocaust survivor and Nobel peace prize winner Elie Wiesel succinctly explained:
As for Kristi Noem, see:
bcb…eyes only…. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/thomas-opinion-precedent-supreme-court-overturn-more
There be danger in the air tonight. I believe he was only waiting for a clear right wing majority before attempting this.
I haven’t found any place in the Gospels where Jesus used the word “illegal”, or something similar in regard to any person. Of course, Ad Nauseam is the expert here, as his definitive statements make clear.
I’m wondering how you’d say you know my intentions.
Adjectives modify nouns and pronouns, and the adjective illegal means not authorized by law. In this context an illegal alien is someone who isn’t a citizen of the United States and isn’t authorized by law to live here.
Was it normal for holocaust-era Nazis to coin English phrases?
I’m not sure what your point is. If she wasn’t carrying a valid driver’s license, she was an illegal driver.
Mr. Evans, indeed you are often saner than most. I enjoy your post with multiple quotings and debatings and such as you win every point there. grudznick has ruled. Mr. Evans wins.
“Kurt Evans”, wrong again. There is no such thing as an “illegal driver”. They only exist in the mind of the crew cut ISIS man. Here is what happens if you do not have a valid driver’s license or if you do not have any drivers license.
“Possible vehicle impoundment. Summary Offense: $200 fine; license suspension increased by 1 year if originally suspended, 2 years if it was originally revoked. First Offense – Misdemeanor: Imprisonment for no more than 30 days; $250-$500 fine; license suspension increased by 3 months.May 31, 2019”
Oh no. Ad Nauseam is going to drown this topic in endless, fruitless comments too. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
Why, Ms. Geelsdottir, I’m flattered that despite your frequent squeaks that you do not read what grudznick blogs, you still do. It’s OK. We all knew.
I suppose many on the political left might insist that such drivers should be referred to as “undocumented motorists” and that Christ’s real followers should be helping them avoid law enforcement and providing them with snacks and beverages for the road.
While Kurt’s intentions may be hidden in the unknowable recesses of his mind, one can make an educated guess about his intentions by considering the language he uses.
On the effects, wisdom and accuracy of using adjectives or nouns to declare human beings “illegal,” consider who makes the more compelling argument, Kurt Evens or Elie Wiesel? You be the judge.
Personally I will admit some bias – I admit to a bias against dehumanizing or harming other people and from all I have read and understand, calling people “illegal aliens” or “illegal immigrants” results in dehumanization and inflicts unnecessary harm. But even if I am wrong, principles analogous to Pacal’s wager suggest that if my priority is not to speak in a manner that dehumanizes or harms others I have little or nothing to lose by omiting this particular terminology from my discourse, and everything to gain.
In ways that don’t violate the law, yes. One of the two men who were crucified at the same time as Christ insisted that Christ should save him from the legal consequences of his actions. The other willingly submitted himself to the legal consequences of his actions. The first man was in the wrong, and the second man was in the right.
The Bible indicates that God the Father would have put tens of thousands of angels at Christ’s disposal if Christ had asked for them, but even as He offered spiritual forgiveness and verbal comfort to the second man, Christ didn’t help him avoid the legal consequences of his actions, much less violate the law Himself.
As far as I know, there’s no law against calling an ambulance or taking other measures to save the bank robber’s life in that situation, so it would presumably be appropriate. My Christian ethics definitely don’t suggest I should stand there laughing.
It would apparently suggest that to you.
I’m not sure. Would you say the answer is zero?
Deb Geelsdottir writes:
That’s absurd, Deb, and as usual, I’m wondering how you claim to know.
I’m not a racist, and you could probably count the Catholics I hate on your fingers.
Porter Lansing writes:
This is one of the rare occasions when Porter and I agree.
“kurt Evans” writes even more gibberish. The flagrant hate you have for the Catholic immigrants in our concentration camps shows that very well. You’re in good stead with the rest of the racists though “Kurt Evans”, you should feel proud of yourself.
Ad Nauseam, tell us how many people Jesus rejected based on inherent qualities or categories.
Btw, you stretch the criminals on the crosses out of all recognizable proportions. That’s pseudonymous John’s creative addition to the story. The other 3 Gospel writers don’t add it. Did you get that from your “Traditional Bible Christian” friends? Imagination is a wonderful thing.
Jesus broke laws regularly. He was not concerned with the legality of his actions. Chiefly he broke religious laws, which were a part of the civil framework.
Kurt Evans is not only an obsessive/compulsive parser of that which offends his worldview, he is plain nuts.
What I am trying to say is; There is no possible way one can paint as a villain one who puts jugs of water in the desert.
The new American concentration camps are much the same as the old American concentration camps going back to Fort Sill and the Apache and then further to the stealing of the lands of the Cherokee and their forced march to oblivion. https://encyclopedia.densho.org/Sites_of_incarceration/#Department_of_Justice_Internment_Camp
We Americans held over 120,000 Japanese Americans because they were Japanese Americans. These folks only wanted to work and raise families to provide for themselves and for their country, America.
In Spanish, the only word for North America, Central America and South America is America. That word is used to describe us all. Of course, then it is broken down by region, but the main word for all three is simply America. Makes sense as we are all Americans. Let’s start treating each other that way and make sensible immigration laws that do not put people in concentration camps.
My good friend Bob, with whom I have breakfasted with to near puke status many a time, does not really get Mr. Evans like I do. Mr. Evans has often spouted a wiser line than Bob, although Bob does sport a far better hat on most occasions and is perhaps a better story teller before lunch. The odd part is that Mr. Evans and Bob are of the same Libertarian membership, while that party would not let grudznick in last year.
On top of being a coward, the thing which styles itself “grudznick” is an outright liar. I have never shared a meal with anything as despicable. And it should be obvious that the Libertarian Party admits anyone with $5, no matter how despicable they are.
grudznick has oft bought breakfasts which cost far more than $5 for many a Libertarian. They are, in general, pretty swell fellows when they are not all jacked up and toking the demon weed. Or toting it around in their trunk to sell to school children.
CIRD, you have my sympathy. He is the only “person” I am aware of who lies as much as Wilted Weenie. Both are pathetic old men.
Deb Geelsdottir writes to me:
The account of the second criminal’s eleventh-hour conversion was recorded in Luke’s Gospel, not John’s. It seems like you can’t say one thing about Christianity that’s historically accurate, Deb, no matter how relatively trivial.
Nope. You’re wrong Ad Nauseum.
The central point, as CIRD said, is that Jesus would have never seen a thirsty, suffering person and refused to help them. Derived directly from that is the secondary point that anyone declining to assist such people may do so for personal, political or other reasons, perhaps even religious reasons. But “Christ”ianity does not sanction such callous cruelty.
“Certain Inflatable Recreational Devices” writes:
This diagnosis has been brought to you by Robert J. Newland, a 70-year-old man whose online pseudonym alludes to a blow-up sex doll.
I’m a small-L libertarian currently registered with no party affiliation.
Deb Geelsdottir writes:
Jesus didn’t speak English, but the New Testament uses an adjective approximately equivalent to the word lawless to describe people who lack legal authorization for their actions.
I don’t have an exact number, but for example, John reports that Jesus rejected some Pharisees whom He categorized as children of their father the devil.
The Apostle John didn’t write his Gospel under a pseudonym.
Can you cite a few examples?
That’s absurd, Deb, and as usual, I’m wondering how you claim to know.
As I’ve already indicated in a previous comment, one of the two thirsty, suffering men who were crucified at the same time as Jesus insisted that Jesus should save him from the legal consequences of his actions, and Jesus refused to help him.
Christianity doesn’t equate legal consequences with callous cruelty.
We’ve been all through this ad nauseum, Ad Nauseam. My qualifications are way above your pay grade, that’s how I know this.
Many of your conclusions are wrong, as you’ve been told many times by many of us, with supporting evidence. You choose to ignore what doesn’t suit you and use your tangential, argumentative, repetitious, errant responses to feel self righteous.
You’re one of the best proof texters I’ve known. Proof texting is a perfectly pathetic way to misuse the bible. You adamantly refuse any and every opportunity to learn and grow. You totally resent my ordination and refuse to use my clerical title because in your tiny world your god doesn’t call women to ministry.
Maybe it’s just your self-righteous arrogance that prevents you from directly addressing and learning from BCB’s wise and thoughtful comments.
As I’ve said before, declare total victory for yourself because I’m done. I’ll no longer beat myself against the brick wall you’ve erected around your brain. You’ve lost.
That’s all right Debbo, I’ll give it one more try:
Kurt, Jesus was convicted of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin and treason by the Romans.
As far as criminal behavior: Jesus destroyed a whole heard of swine that did not belong to him (Mark 5:1-20) which was one of the reasons why the people of Gerasenes wanted him to get out of there. There’s also the little matter of a fig tree that was certainly NOT growing wild, which he destroyed. (Matthew 11:12-25) BTW, immediately after cursing the fig tree, and before the disciples saw it dead, he went into the Temple yard and started whipping people out, destroying their private property, and generally having a fit. Even today, if someone came into, say, a bank or a church with a whip and started driving people out of it, pouring out the money gathered up and overturning the altar or the tellers’ desks – they’d be arrested at the very least.
He and his disciples also broke the Sabbath laws with such regularity that it’s amazing that the Pharisees and Sadducees hadn’t already killed him – and they did try. Remember when his home town tried to throw him off the cliff? He ate with sinners, picked crops to eat from other peoples’ fields, healed a number of people – in church, gasp! – on the Sabbath, and told people straight out that the Sabbath laws were inhumane and they didn’t have to follow them – Matthew 12:1-21; Mark 2:23-28 (and that’s just for starters). He was constantly investigated by the Pharisees for this – and breaking the Sabbath was, under Jewish law, a capital offense.
He also hung out with criminals – prostitutes, tax collectors (back then they were not “nice” men), thieves, etc. (Matthew 11:19)
He broke a lot of laws. You may try to argue that these were all religious laws, and thus not legally binding, but in Jesus’ day, religious laws WERE legally binding, with the result that after they tried to stone him, Jesus was arrested, tried, beaten, and then passed on to Rome – not because the Sanhedrin couldn’t kill him, they could have stoned him – but because they wanted him crucified publicly as an example to anyone else who might want to follow his ways.
Very informative post Eve – thanks! It undermines any implication that Debbo’s posting was in any way inaccurate or “absurd.”
Yes, but you can’t rightfully accuse me of “intentional dehumanization” based on an educated guess. Would you say I’m intentionally dehumanizing Governor Noem?
The quote attributed to Wiesel at your link just claims over and over that illegal aliens aren’t illegal while wording that claim in several different ways. It doesn’t even make any supporting argument.
Blaise Pascal made valuable contributions to mathematics and theology, but “Pascal’s wager” has never impressed me as one of them. It seems to me that there’s much to lose by blurring the distinction between those who’ve dedicated years of their lives to becoming legally naturalized immigrants and illegal aliens who just sneaked in.
“jerry” writes to me:
Much of Hispanic Catholicism has been syncretized with warmed-over polytheism and ancestor worship, and many of those Catholics would make the typical American Catholic look like Martin Luther by comparison. My desire to control immigration and keep the melting pot working is mainly rooted in a desire to preserve the best aspects of our culture, not in hatred.
Deb Geelsdottir had written:
You incorrectly spliced together two complete sentences using only a comma there, Deb.
Christ Himself routinely cited proof texts from the Bible.
I’m uncomfortable addressing you by any clerical title because your bizarre claims about the history of Christianity lead me to wonder whether you were abusing psychotropic drugs during seminary.
“bearcreekbat” writes of Eve Fisher’s comment:
What I said was absurd is Deb’s claim that Christ wasn’t concerned with the legality of His actions.
“Kurt Evans” finally comes around with this. “Jesus didn’t speak English” Exactly, Jesus spoke Spanish, that is why there are a whole bunch of fellows called Jesus to this day. What a Jesus told me was that immigrants should be treated a helluva lot better than we treat them in our concentration camps, that’s what Jesus said.
No wonder “Kurt Evans” supports the border racist types, they do the same kinds of grifting his beloved DiSanto does. Witn these bozo heads, it’s all about the money and how much they can fleece.
“Authorities in Oklahoma have charged border vigilante Jim Benvie with fraud after The Daily Beast reported he was suspected of running a child-cancer charity scam there.” https://www.thedailybeast.com/united-constitutional-patriots-jim-benvie-charged-with-fraud-for-allegedly-pocketing-cash-for-kid-with-cancer
Once someone becomes aware that unnecessary labels (or adjectives) they use to describe other people are perceived as dehumanizing or hurtful, but still insists on continuing to use that unnecessary language, then I believe I can “rightfully accuse” that person of intentionally dehumanizing those folks.
And the idea that using unnecessary terms to dehumanize and hurt others somehow is a compliment to, or benefit to, other people lucky enough to be considered legally naturalized immigrants does not seem complimentary at all. Indeed, it seems doubtful that most naturalized immigrants would find joy or satisfaction in their lives by using names and adjectives to dehumanize and harm people not so fortunate; especially the 300 little kids that we recently learned are being held in unsanitary and unsafe detention conditions.
I can’t see how you would be comfortable calling those kids or any other human being an “illegal” anything, but if that squirts your pickle, so be it.
Before this thread, I have never heard you refer to Noem as an “illegal” anything. I suspect you already believe that your use of that term regarding Noem in this discussion will not have the effect of dehumanizing a group of decent people or Noem herself, in contrast with the hateful language dehumanizing people for seeking freedom, safety and economic opportunity by committing a non-violent misdemeanor or administrative transgression that harms neither person nor property of another person.
A 20 year old female, a toddler and two infants were found dead near McAllen, Texas.
Hey Kurt, are they “illegally” dead?
Mr. “jerry”, grudznick does appreciate your interactions with Mr. “Evans” and is weighing your considerable, although mercifully shorter, rebuttals.
Okay, I wasn’t going to comment here again, but this is just too funny!
Ad Nauseam said, “I’m uncomfortable addressing you by any clerical title because your bizarre claims…”
This from a guy who thinks Genesis is a science book and the Earth is only 6000 years old! That’s just too good to pass up. Ad Nauseam, I just want to say thank you. I am greatly relieved that you find my knowledge of modern theological studies and understandings “bizarre.”
Deb Geelsdottir had written to me:
Christ Himself publicly recognized the Hebrew Bible as true, and so do traditional Bible Protestants. I don’t think Genesis is a science book, but the real scientific evidence fully aligns with its teachings.
Learn more here:
Quack quack from the quack “kurt evans”
Kurt, CIRD is an acronym for your hero, Al Novstup’s inflatable bouncy house.
$775.00 per day taxpayers pay for each in the American concentration camps. No wonder “kurt Evans” is all in on the taxpayer scam.
“WASHINGTON — The cost of holding migrant children who have been separated from their parents in newly created “tent cities” is $775 per person per night, according to an official at the Department of Health and Human Services — far higher than the cost of keeping children with their parents in detention centers or holding them in more permanent buildings.” https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/trump-admin-s-tent-cities-cost-more-keeping-migrant-kids-n884871
Billions in the pockets of the friends of trump. Have we had enough yet?
I read that it would be cheaper to keep them in one of Wilted Weenie’s hotels. Jerry, you know that’s Plan B for the trump Family Crime Syndicate.
Robert Mueller will testify on July 27, 2019, in open questioning. Should be a hoot. Now if we can get Pelosi to plan on a July 28th announcement for an impeachment inquiry, that would be a hooted hoot. The whole gang needs to be removed before we are more Russia than what used to be Russia.
What I wouldn’t give to hear trump talk to the guy who attacked us in 2016, Putin, the war speak he is giving Iran. Tough talk from a fat man on a small country. Putin would just laugh and show him the pee pee tapes. Yikes!!
Is there anyway that Trump’s White House can prevent Mueller from testifying?
Roger, Not that I can see. Mueller retired and is no longer a government employee. He is a civilian like the rest of us. Now, Mike and John and Butina’s guy pal, Dusty are gonna have to answer to us South Dakotan’s on what they have read in the Mueller report that Mueller will be talking about. Should be interesting. Tick toc until July 27th.
Roger, the date is Wednesday, July 17th, 2019. Sorry about that. So Speaker Pelosi should have the impeachment inquiry up and ready to go on Thursday, July 18th, 2019.
Deb Geelsdottir had written:
I’d asked Deb:
Deb had replied:
Eve Fisher writes:
He was falsely convicted of breaking laws He hadn’t broken.
The passage you cite doesn’t say Jesus destroyed the herd.
The event you describe is recorded in the eleventh chapter of Mark’s Gospel, not Matthew’s, and Mark doesn’t say whether the tree was growing wild.
The passage you attempt to cite indicates that Christ was enforcing religious laws, not breaking them, and it doesn’t say whether He whipped anyone or destroyed anyone’s property.
How many times would you say Christ and His disciples broke the Sabbath laws?
No, but I remember reading Luke’s account of the event in the fourth chapter of his Gospel.
There was no church before Christ rose from the dead.
Christ told people straight out that “it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:12).
I may try to argue that Christ didn’t break a lot of laws, religious or otherwise.
You nailed it Eve, but Ad Nauseam will never admit it. Never.
Debbo, why do you even bother with Ad Nauseam garbage, you are far better then that.
Mr. “Evans”, I find your ad nauseam reiterations of conversations very entertaining. grudznick approves. You may continue.
Mr. C. doesn’t come to Dakota Free Press seeking entertainment, he comes here for good and healthy debates and discussions, not for biblical one upsmenship.
Yeah, you’re right Roger. It really bothers me when someone distorts biblical teaching out of all recognizable shape and turns it I to something ugly. I’ll try to let more of it pass.
Thanks Debbo, we have lost sight of the intent of this thread and that is the abandonment of people on the border.
Today we saw a horrible picture of a father and his toddler daughter laying face down in the Rio Grande River after drowning in an attempt to seek asylum.
There are far too many similar stories of immigrants dying at the border looking for a better life.
Trump Camps are holding thousands of children in concentration camps where sickness and filth prevail.
How can Christians not help these people?
Can you even call yourself a Christian if you don’t lend aid?
Roger, the problem is that “kurt evans” and his irk, are not Christians, hell, they ain’t even human. (jerry 11:46)
You’ve incorrectly spliced together two complete sentences using only a comma.
“Can you even call yourself a Christian if you don’t lend aid?”
I don’t see how Roger. It was so heartening in the Democratic debate tonight to hear and see politicians being really passionate about the need to get those children out of the trump/GOP concentration camps and care for the families.
It seemed to me the consensus among the debaters was to follow international law for asylum seekers, reinstate the DREAM Act, provide a route to citizenship and create some type of Marshall Plan for our southern neighbors so the people are able to live safely and humanely in their own countries.
I can support that because it’s humane, sticks to USA values and is an economic winner.
(I hope we get a post tomorrow about tonight’s debate.)
In last night’s debates Julian Castro made it a point to argue for the repeal of 8 U.S.C. section 1325,
which makes it a misdemeanor to cross the border at an unauthorized location, a law that was reportedly adopted at the urging of avowed ‘White supremacist’ Sen. Coleman Blease in 1929.
The Trump administration and people like Kurt Evans rely upon section 1325 to justify seperating children from family members, punishing religious folks for providing food, water or help to immigrants in danger of harm, and/or using the “illegal” label (or “adjective” if that makes one feel better about the harm this inflicts on people) to dehumanize immigrant men, women and children. Several other Democratic candidates reportedly support repeal of section 1325, including Warren, Booker and Ryan. O’Rourke, however, opposes repeal while Klobachar and De Blasio say the haven’t taken a position one way or the other on repeal. Meanwhile the self described “stable genius” Trump tweeted that consideration of repeal is “boring.”
I note that repeal would not mean open borders because current civil immigration laws can be used to legally detain and remove unqualified individuals from the US. Real would eliminate, however, the only legal justification for abusing and even torturing children, prosecuting people for providing Christian or non-Christian humanitarian aid to people in need, and/or using “illegal” as a term to dehumanize people.
For me, opposing repeal is a deal breaker.
Thanks for that clarification BCB. I noted that brought out one of the more contentious moments. (And O’Rourke was totally underwhelming.)
I didn’t really understand why my Senator Amy Klobuchar was undecided. I’d like to hear more from her about what she’s thinking. She’s a former prosecutor and so is Senator Kamala Harris so it will be interesting to see what she has to say about it. I hope the moderators will ask about it tonight too.
Trump tweeted that repeal of 1325 was “boring”. Bette Midler tweeted, “As if we aren’t aware that’s how Trump feels about anything he can’t eat or f**k.” Bette is a Queen of the Resistance.
“mike from iowa” writes:
Of course not, but if they were in the United States without legal authorization, they were illegal before they died.
I agree Porter. The Divine Miss M has been one of my favorites since she and Barry Manilow were entertaining in the New York bathhouses in the late sixties.
Good question Mike. Those nasty “illegal” people! If they would just be rich white men everything would be so much better.
Like it or not, Kurt, them there illegals are allowed entry into America to seek asylum. They are under no obligation to enter at a usual port of entry. The illegal stuff is being done by this government and agents at the border are unhappy having to treat fellow humans inhumanely.
On a sad side note, to US service members have committed suicide near the border.
“Two” Mike? Or they have suicided there “too”, as in also?
Yep, international law that the US has signed onto mandates specific, humane treatment for refugees and asylum seekers. The Wilted Weenie Weenie deministration is breaking that law. There is no Christian justification for doing so. “Traditional bible” sham not withstanding.
Shhhhh! …. Tad Hominem’s listening.
Sorry, Debbo. I meant 2 for now.
“Certain Inflatable Recreational Devices” had written:
“Certain Inflatable Recreational Devices” replies:
What’s your next claim, Bob? That you chose your pseudonym to honor Novstrup? That you chose it to honor me?
I don’t know Senator Novstrup, and I know relatively little about him.
I don’t know Senator DiSanto, and I know relatively little about her.
“mike from iowa” writes:
To be clear, I do “like it” that aliens are allowed to enter the United States to seek asylum, and the aliens who do so aren’t “illegals,” but if they were really planning to apply for asylum, why would they avoid legal ports of entry and risk their lives attempting dangerous illegal border crossings?
It really isn’t a much of a mystery “why would [aslym seekers] avoid legal ports of entry and risk their lives attempting dangerous illegal border crossings?” NPR reports that:
I know, I know, . . . I mispelled a word – “asylum.” Anyway, here is more from NBC:
It’s not all that complicated to understand the motivations to cross at undesignated locations given the current Trump imposed attempts to delay and restrict crossing at designated ports of entry.
. . . .
Well researched, Bear. After today’s exposure of the racist and violent border guard Facebook page “I’m 10-15” (10-15 is code for Alien in Custody) there’s little doubt making these poor migrant’s lives miserable is all in a days work and entertainment for Trump’s Goons posing as CPB agents!
No problem Porter. I am constantly surprised at the professed ignorance that is relied upon to appease the guilt of doing and saying things that hurt and dehumanize others, especially by those who actually know, or should know, better. Anyway, it seems better to put it out there for all to see and perhaps, just perhaps, some minds might just pop open when it comes to understanding and having empathy for people crossing our border to seek safety, freedom and economic survival.
Hypothetically, what if you become aware that your accusation is perceived as dehumanizing or hurtful?
You’re completely misrepresenting my position, and you seem to be doing so intentionally. I don’t advocate using terms to dehumanize and hurt others, and as I’ve already indicated above, I believe it is necessary to maintain the distinction between those who’ve dedicated years of their lives to becoming legally naturalized immigrants and illegal aliens who just sneaked in.
Kurt, your hypothetical really doesn’t make sense. But if you think I am dehumanizing or hurting you by objecting to your use of “illegal” to describe people, then feel free to accuse me of demonizing or hurting you.
As for your second statement, if you truely “don’t advocate using terms to dehumanize and hurt others,” but “believe it is necessary to maintain the distinction between those who’ve dedicated years of their lives to becoming legally naturalized immigrants and [people] who just sneaked in,” then why not refer to the latter as “people,” or “immigrants,” or “migrants?” What is the point or advantage in labeling them “illegal” anything if not to dehumanize them or hurt them as a group?
And if you want to be more descriptive, why not use more honest descriptions such as calling them “people who have been denied access to the U.S. at a border crossing under the Trump Administration’s border policies,” or “people so deperately seeking safety, freedom and economic survival that they will cross the U.S. border at undesignated locations if blocked from crossing at designated locations?”
As for me “misrepresenting your position,” you are wrong. I wrote what I understood your comment to mean, which would be my position. If you want to contend my position is wrong, you can always state that your words meant something different than I understood (which is a practice you seem quite comfortable with).
These immigrants are allowed to enter this country and seek asylum. They are not obligated to enter where you think they should (because it is much easier to round them up and deny them their opportunity to ask for asylum).
At what point did they become illegal? And who gets to decide their status?