Post-Orlando Observations on Religious Hate, Gun Love, and the Police State

Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick’s unfortunate Sunday morning tweet about reaping what one sows right after the Orlando shooting shows the danger of pre-scheduling social media posts. The anti-gay comments made after the killings by Seddique Mateen, father of Orlando mass murderer Omar Mateen, show the poison of fundamentalist religious “thinking”:

“I am deeply saddened and announce this to the people of America,” said Seddique Mateen in his Facebook video, noting his son carried out the attack during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

Seddique Mateen, speaking in Dari, concluded the video by expressing disbelief that his son took it upon himself to seek retribution against the gay community.

“God himself will punish those involved in homosexuality,” he said. “This, is not for the servants” of God [Tim Craig, Max Bearak and Lee Powell, “Shooter’s Father Says He’s Saddened by Massacre, Calls Gunman ‘A Good Son’,” Washington Post, 2016.06.13].

Seddique Mateen insists his son’s murderous actions were selfish, self-aggrandizing rage not related to religion, but parents who peddle the belief that certain fellow human beings deserve God’s punishment, especially as an immediate and ill-thought response to an undisputable crime against humanity should not be surprised if their children and others fail to grasp the theological complexities of who is permitted to dish out divine punishment. Maybe we fallible humans just can’t sustain a complicated religion; maybe we should ignore any religion that spends more time on any message other than, “Love everyone, kill no one.”

Donald Trump says President Barack Obama should resign for not saying three words: “Radical Islamic Terrorism.” Should Donald Trump resign for not saying three words: “National Rifle Association”?

Mateen demonstrated again just how potent the mix of ISIS and National Rifle Association ideology is. America is the perfect setting for “lone wolf” ISIS followers because they have access to the weapons they need to do their worst. Despite having been investigated twice in recent years by the F.B.I. for possible ties to terrorism, Mateen was able walk into a Florida gun dealership recently, and acquire a “long gun” and a pistol. This, by any reasonable standard, is madness.

The AR-15 assault rifle used by Mateen was also the weapon used by the San Bernardino shooters. The former N.R.A. president, David Keene, once described the weapons as the “gun liberals love to hate.” It is in fact the rifle that illustrates why lax American gun laws make American lives cheap. The laws are an aberration [Roger Cohen, “Orlando and Trump’s America,” New York Times, 2016.06.13].

Senator Bernie Sanders reacted to the Orlando massacre by reiterating on Meet the Press yesterday that “we should not be selling automatic weapons which are designed to kill people. We have got to do everything that we can on top of that to make sure that guns do not fall into the hands of people who should not have them, criminals, people who are mentally ill.” Hillary Clinton says possible restrictions on assault weapons need to be part of the debate, but she and Trump both want more surveillance of Americans. One nut kills 49 people, and cutting off the terrorists’ weapons supply can’t get bipartisan traction, but less Fourth Amendment and more police state can. The terrorists win again.


181 Responses to Post-Orlando Observations on Religious Hate, Gun Love, and the Police State

  1. Bob Newland

    Religion poisons everything, including my affection for fine firearms.

  2. The problem here is not guns, the problem here is an extremely intolerant group who believes that things like being gay should be punishable by death. The problem here is radical Islam. 9/11 had amny more casualties, many times more in fact, remind me again how many guns were used in that attack? What is the common denominator in most all of the terrorist attacks taking place around the world? If guns are not used there are other ways, nail bombs seem to be one method that has shown itself from time to time for example. We need to face the fact that we are at war and we need to start acting like it. This war is not one that can be won by our military alone, people need to also start defending themselves. On another note I’m sure glad those cops had the armored vehicle they used to save some of those people who were stuck inside that building with that radical Islomic terrorist. Guess the cops having such equipment has its place.

  3. I wanted to add that my heart goes out to the innocent victims and their families… I can not even begin to imagine the horror of what they went through in that night club.

  4. happy camper

    We will find out what combination of Islam, mental instability, upbringing, easy access to weapons (etc) played in this. I preach waiting for all the facts to come in though ISIS sympathizers and the ISIS media are congratulating his actions, he expressed loyalty to them, and his father has praised the Taliban. A friend of his from high school is a drag queen and said he was not homophobic when he was younger and was friendly to gays, but later his ex-wife said he was abusive and beat her, his ex co-workers said he hated other races, women, and religion was his hot button. The fundamental letter for letter reading of Islam is not peace regardless if the vast majority of Muslims ignore those tenets. ISIS is following the fundamentals. This PC garbage is putting us at risk. If not directly in this case Islamic Radicalism is a real danger to our way of life. We have a modern culture we should be more proud of having accomplished and work to protect it. Too many Americans are eager to criticize every aspect of this country while forgetting how good we have it here and pretending these backwards cultures are just as good when they are misogynist, superstitious, don’t respect civil rights etc….

  5. mike from iowa

    Nate K-where were all the “good guys” with guns in Orlando? You know the ones-the ones the NRA swears will defend innocent human lives from crazed killers.

    Obama has been busy (and successful) taking out radical Islamic leaders overseas while wingnuts, bought and paid for by the NRA, block any meaningful gun restrictions in America.

    It is fecking pathetic to hear former dumbassador John Bolton, a member of the administration that couldn’t decipher threats to hijack planes and fly them into skyscrapers in America, complain that Obie’s guys can’t follow leads to terrorists in country.

  6. Mike, good guys with guns are not allowed in places like that night club… Imagine that, another killing in a “gun free zone”.

  7. mike from iowa

    ps Drumpf#$k claims HRC is the most anti-gun,anti 2nd amendment candidate ever.

    NRA claims Obama is going to take away your guns, how is it humanly possible that HRC could do worse? NRA and Drumpf#$k are bald faced liars. Period. End of story.

  8. Are you denying that HRC is the most anti-2nd candidate? HRC herself doesn’t seem to mind wearing that title.

  9. mike from iowa

    Nate K- you are telling me a good guy with a gun outside wouldn’t have rushed in there to protect innocent human lives-rules be damned?

  10. And to imply that HRC is not a lier…. lol lol lol that’s funny.

  11. mike from iowa

    There was an armed cop inside according to reports. Was he constrained in its use because the law says no guns inside?

  12. Mike, the police didn’t even “rush in there” for hours. An effective good guy with a gun (even a paid undercover armed security guard) would have had to be IN the buidling to be effective. Once the building is under attack the tactical advantage is lost for anyone on the outside.

  13. Mike, where did you see that report? I have seen no such report. I had heard that there may have been an armed cop OUTSIDE but I have heard nothing about inside. I could be wrong, but have not seen it.

  14. mike from iowa

    Police said an officer working at the nightclub responded as shots rang out, and engaged Mateen in a gun battle. Mateen went deeper into the club, where more shots were fired.

    This item was in the earliest reports broadcast yesterday, not in the later ones.

  15. The reports I saw (in my interpetation, again I could be wrong, details seem to be fuzzy) indicated that the officer was engaged outside of the club, prior to any shootings inside. Likely taken completely off guard as the first target (making an assumption with lack of real detail, again). Problem with any uniformed guard or officer is that they are a target to anyone wishing to do harm, they will be the first ones removed to make way for terror. Having someone inside the club, paid guard or a non-drinking patron, plain clothes, and blending in would IMO be more successful.

  16. mike from iowa

    I am also saying HRC is on record as saying we have to respect the 2nd Amendment. She has also said assault weapons need to be banned. Doesn’t make her radical at all,imho.

  17. mike from iowa

    Problem with any uniformed guard or officer is that they are a target to anyone wishing to do harm, they will be the first ones removed to make way for terror.

    Precisely what occurred at a shipyard shooting last year. At least two armed guards were removed before ex-employee started the fun killing. Guns are not necessarily the answer even with fully trained officials.

  18. Exactly why conceal carry has an advantage over open carry… If you don’t know who is carrying you have no idea who you need to take out before going on a deadly rampage.

  19. mike from iowa

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Orlando_nightclub_shooting

    Wiki claims original uniformed cop/security officer was later joined by two more uniformed officers as Mateen went deeper into the club.

  20. Hmmm…. outlaw guns, or outlaw religions that are incompatible with democratic pluralism?

    Nate, why not open carry so everyone knows not to try any funny business?

  21. Or keep guns to defend yourself against religious radicals… That’s what I’ll do. I think I already answered why not open carry, makes you a target IMO.

  22. Interesting, never thought to look at Wikipedia already for more details… According to that it does look like the uniformed officer engaged him outside of the club, and that him and the two others attempted to take on the situation from the outside going in. I don’t think there was any armed security inside of the club which is where they would have likely been the most effective.

  23. mike from iowa

    NY Times says armed,off duty cop working security for the club was posted at the front entrance. How does an openly armed thug get by cop to gain entrance?

  24. mike from iowa

    If you don’t know who is carrying you have no idea who you need to take out before going on a deadly rampage.

    Cuts both ways,don’t it? Guards can’t tell if approaching individual was armed if arm was concealed.

  25. mike from iowa

    Mateen was on watch list and was still able to buy weapons because- winguts blocked bills to stop known terrorists from employing their 2nd Amendment rights to buy all kinds of guns.

  26. Steve Sibson

    “Hmmm…. outlaw guns, or outlaw religions that are incompatible with democratic pluralism?”

    Democratic pluralism and the so-called equality movement is why we have Islamic fascists shooting up our country. And the man in the White House wants to use the actions of these Islamic fascists to ban guns.

    Propagandist use fear in order to control how the masses think. In this case, it is being used to make you guys not think.

    The Director of the FBI admitted they could not have done anything different. So that means the government cannot protect us. So the only choice is for us to protect ourselves. And you wing nuts want to take our guns away.

  27. Bob Newland

    We have religious nuts (redundant characterization) killing folks because religion is nuts.

  28. “Cuts both ways,don’t it? Guards can’t tell if approaching individual was armed if arm was concealed.”

    Are you assuming that a criminal is going to follow the laws again? A criminal is going to conceal when it is in his benefit whether it is allowed or not. The ones that are NOT allowed to conceal are those who follow the rules, flawed as they may be.

  29. mike from iowa

    A guard at a military installation will be in uniform,armed or not. Makes it pretty obvious to any crook. Having these guards conceaL carry won’t make them any less a target and not any safer if they were openly armed.

    Why do you gun crazies back allowing terrorists to buy guns openly in America? Why do you feel the need to have assault weapons?

  30. mike from iowa

    Director of the FBI is a bonafide wingnut. Director of the FBI has a plethora of wingnuts in congress demanding to slash the bureaus budget – just like with embassy security. FBI is being held hostage- just like the IRS because wingnuts have imagined both bureaus committing terrorist acts on wingnut donors, which is another blatant lie told bt wingnuts.

  31. mike from iowa

    Are you assuming that a criminal is going to follow the laws again?

    This criminal followed the laws in obtaining weapons he should never had been allowed to have-if not for dumbass wingnut Pols and the terrorist NRA.

  32. mike from iowa

    Bob N is 100% correct about religion and nuts.

  33. Terrorists that have been proven to be such are not allowed to openly buy weapons… If you are convicted of demestic violance you are not allowed to openly purchase a weapon. What the government can not do is just willy nilly put people on a list without due process and take away their rights. Stop trying to make it sound like any jackass can go buy a gun.

    What is an assult weapon exactly? You do realize that most people can not purchase or own fully automatic weapons right? Semi-Automatic rifles are A) Fun to shoot for sport and B) handy if the need ever comes to defend property against whoever it may need defence from, the government included. I’m not a prepper or anything, I don’t even own a AR style Rifle at the moment, but I do respect the reason for the 2nd amendment which is to allow the people the ability to stand up against their governement if the need arises among other reasons like defending themselves against other groups that may want to do them harm (i.e. ISIS)

    A military installation has an ability to respond to an external attack unlike a night club, although I think their abilities have been slashed too… The idea that solders on base are not allowed to be armed is also a negative, this has been proven by the multiple deaths caused by a rouge person who should have been taken as the many people who have had the training to take them out were killed.

    Don’t like guns, don’t get one… Don’t want one person to represent all Muslims, fair enough, don’t judge all gun owners by the action of one POS.

  34. mike from iowa

    One mass murdering spree after another because the NRA propagandists says your government is taking away your guns. Each of these MM was committed by separate killers,not just one.

    The Soopreme Court-as it stands- will uphold the 9th Circuit’s claim that there is no right to concealed carry in the constitution. OMFG! What will you law abiding gun owners do? Kill the justices? That would make you criminals and rightly so.

    Anybody on the government’s terrorist watch list can buy guns in the US of A. Wingnuts and the NRA see to that. In March, the U.S. Government Accountability Office published an analysis of FBI data showing that from February 2004 through December 2014, 2,043 out of 2,233 weapons applications by people on the terrorist watch list were allowed to proceed. Nearly all applications were for firearms. Three were for explosives, all of which were approved.(from politifact)

  35. Steve Sibson

    “Why do you gun crazies back allowing terrorists to buy guns openly in America? Why do you feel the need to have assault weapons?”

    We need AR-15s because bad people have them whether they are legal or not. Instead of banning guns, perhaps we should ban terrorists. IF they were not here, then they could not buy guns. But we can’t do that without violated the wing nuts democratic plurality.

    And did the Boston bombers need guns to implement their mass carnage? Did the mass murderers on 911 use guns?

  36. Roger Cornelius

    Why do these idiot wingnuts continually complain that President Obama wants to take away ammosexual toys?
    The president has been in office nearly eight years and has made no effort to collect anybody’s guns. If in the mind of idiots the president intends to take away guns he better get busy, he has only a few months to accomplish such a feat.
    Since Sandy Hook, there have been nearly 1,000 group or mass shootings, of that number, only two or three have been Muslims.
    The one thing that we don’t hear about when these shootings happen is that they are committed by men, men of different religions, men of different color, but by men. Why do men feel empowered to kill innocent people?
    mike from iowa asks the question and never gets an answer, why are illegal immigrants able to feed the gun trade by being allowed to purchase assault weapons or any weapons, for that matter?

  37. Mike, you missted the part about DUE PROCESS… There is no due process to be on the watch list, that is why rights can not be taken. You do not have to be convicted or proven to be involved in anything to end up on that list.

  38. Roger, you won’t find me defending illegals getting anything in this country. If they are in fact able to buy weapons here you are absolutely correct that should stop now. They should also be cut off from any other benefits and immediately deported. Illegals are breaking the law by being here, they can go home.

    Obama would do much more if he could, the next president will have more ability to do so due to supreme court nominations. We have good reason to fear Hillary.

  39. mike from iowa

    Sibby-Mateen is a born and bred AMERICAN. He belongs here every bit as much as you do.

    People on the terrorist watch list are either known terrorists or suspected terrorists. They ARE NOT allowed on planes. Why can they have guns?

  40. Roger Cornelius

    Nate K.
    I’m guessing that somewhere in your family background you had white illegal immigrants or did they go back where they came from?

    President Obama has never ever taken the position of taking away anybody’s guns and is an advocate of the 2nd Amendment as he said many time, wingnuts just don’t want to hear it.

    And now you are attempting to make people fear Hillary only because of what you perceive are her beliefs. She too is a 2nd Amendment advocate, she has not and will not take try to take away ammosexual toys.
    Illegal immigrants, religious fanatics, rednecks or others that commit mass killings often don’t need a reason. It is simply man’s inhumanity to man. Why do we as human beings make it so easy for them to commit such acts?

  41. mike from iowa

    241 unarmed Marines were killed in Beirut by a car bomb in the early 80s. Who disarmed them-Ronnie Raygun.

    How did we respond? Raygun pulled everyone out of Beirut and sent them home.

  42. I’m listening to NPR, to stories of LGBT activists saying their Pride Week events, like the Pride event in Sioux Falls this Saturday, are now all the more important, as a declaration that they will not be silenced or shamed even by this most brutal violence. We can’t ban homosexuality. We can’t exterminate homosexuals. Even if some Americans think homosexuality is a sin, we have to live with homosexuals.

    We can’t ban Islam. We can’t exterminate Muslims. Even if we think Islam is wrong (and, nodding to Happy Camper, I cast a suspicious eye at Muslim “theology” and outright object to Islam’s treatment of homosexuals, women, and us infidels), we have to live with Muslims.

    We have to learn that we cannot deny our neighbors of their life, liberty, and property based on our personal worldviews. Homosexuals can love each other as much as they want, as long as they don’t force me to marry a man or otherwise intrude on my equal freedom to love. Muslims can kneel to Allah all they want, as long as they don’t intrude on my equal freedom to pray or not to pray. We all need to allow each other equal participation in the social contract.

    Easy access to firearms with big clips and fast triggers isn’t helping us enjoy the social contract.

  43. Steve Sibson

    “The president has been in office nearly eight years and has made no effort to collect anybody’s guns. ”

    Lie. He uses his bully pulpit whenever he has his chance. And his fellow Islamic fascist have just gave him more ammo.

  44. Steve Sibson

    “Homosexuals can love each other as much as they want, as long as they don’t force me to marry a man or otherwise intrude on my equal freedom to love. Muslims can kneel to Allah all they want, as long as they don’t intrude on my equal freedom to pray or not to pray.”

    Cory has not learned that Muslims intrude on “life”, and in this case, homosexuals. The equality movement is based on pure propaganda. Gay “pride” is a promotion of supremacy, not inclusion nor diversity. They believe they are a separate “community”. I here that over and over again coming out of Orlando and the Sioux Falls so-called equality “community”. They say “equality”, but they don’t mean that. They believe they are special. Even at the Tony awards I hear the inclusive and diversity propaganda that is claimed to be “Hamilton” and is the lesson we learned from Orlando. The exact opposite is true. We are depraved and proud, not a voice for inclusion and equality.

  45. Eve Fisher

    This is the most disgusting chain of comments that I have ever read on this blog. Mr. Sibson we already know – from years of posts – that you hate homosexuals, liberals, and anyone who disagrees with you to the point that we can all be killed and you will praise God for it. Please. Go home and read Matthew 5-7, especially “judge not lest ye be judged”.

  46. mike from iowa

    How many guns has Obama’s bully pulpit managed to take from citizens in the last eight years, Sibby?

    You know where you are going for lying, don’t you?

    http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-laws-obama-has-signed-2012-12

  47. Steve Sibson

    Eve, sorry you decided to make false allegations. Those would fall into the category of hate. And taking scripture out of context goes beyond that.

    Now does anybody else want to deal with the issue of equality when pride is celebrated and the supremacists create their own “community”. Second point, how can the gay community continue to argue equality when it means they have to coexist with Islam. Third point, will banning guns prevent Islam from blowing up gay bars? Fourth point, why didn’t the Obama administration do something about the shooter before he went into the gay bar in Orlando besides giving him special gun licenses? Is the president looking for events to create fear and cause people to not think correctly and force the banning of guns? Or is the administration simply inept.

  48. Steve Sibson

    “How many guns has Obama’s bully pulpit managed to take from citizens in the last eight years, Sibby?”

    Zero, because he hasn’t allowed enough tragic events to happen so that the American people will go along with his gun banning agenda. And time is running short, because his second term is about over. ISIS warned us 3 days before the shooting that they were going to attack Florida. Would what the media calls the biggest terrorist attack since 911 tip the scales in the gun banners favor. This web site is certainly on board with that same propaganda. Would 50 dead gays be a small price to pay for the gun banners to get what they want?

  49. Roger Cornelius

    If anybody is inept it is you, Sibson.

    You continually demonstrate for us just how un-Christian you truly are, there probably aren’t enough prayers for you.

    You a lying depraved POS

  50. The dude was gonna target Disney World in Florida. He and his bride took a look see there. There are plenty of soft targets, Sturgis bike rally anyone?, so don’t get all anti-gay on this, they clearly do not give a crap who they shoot. As long as congress gives them the guns, look out, it is gonna be more of the same.

  51. mike from iowa

    “The president has been in office nearly eight years and has made no effort to collect anybody’s guns. ”

    Lie.

    Well Drumpf#$k Jr. you just contradicted your own lie with another lie. How Drumpf#$k like.

  52. Robin Friday

    I hold no warm fuzzies for ANY religion. But this was not Islamic terrorism. It was a homophobic hate crime perpetrated and carried out by a lone wolf terrorist who never should have been sold a military rifle.

  53. happy camper

    Let’s clarify there are 49 dead gays and one dead bastard. We used to have to go to gay bars to feel free and be around other gays just for some level of acceptance. When you can’t be part of the bigger community you form your own. Times have changed and we really are everywhere. If this does get down to radical Islam being the major motivating factor, that may be the problem that 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims do not become a part of the rest of society (or so I’ve read that’s how it is in Europe). Much more should come out about him and his family although we didn’t seem to learn anything particularly enlightening about the guy from SanBernadino, other than his wife being an influence.

  54. The problem is the NRA and the military industrial complex that feeds the vast amounts of money and favors they stick into the pockets of both Democrats and Republicans. How can the NRA and the military industrial complex even hint that there is a terrorist issue right here on our shores without having to admit that the trillions we spend on hardware will not protect us one bit. Think of it this way, France had a couple of hundred killed by terrorists. Norway had the same. In the United States, we only hit the news cycle when we set a record amount of kills by terrorists. In the meantime, our tax dollars continue to go to a bloated defense department that could not protect a porta potty. That would be the same defense department that continues to allow the incredible amount of AR-15’s on our streets.

  55. Robin Friday

    Mark Follman in Mother Jones:

    It may not be clear for days yet how many rounds were fired inside the Pulse nightclub in Orlando; investigators there face a daunting crime scene to process. But the ghastly body count already tells us more than we need to know. As one veteran ATF special agent described it to me after the Sandy Hook massacre in 2012, the weaponry taken up by most of America’s mass shooters—in many cases easily purchased by them in stores—is well-suited for their purpose: “It turns a killer into a killing machine.”

  56. Steve Sibson

    “you just contradicted your own lie with another lie”

    I don’t know how you can say Obama has made no effort to ban guns. He has been very consistent in saying that is what needs to be done, and so has Hillary. An AR-15 is a gun, and both Hi8llary and Obama want to ban them. That is not a lie, I just saw it on the news.

  57. Unfortunately, I suspect that some parts of America will become like Marseille, France, where openly homosexual men have been stoned, attacked, and even show up dead if they happen to wander into the wrong Muslim-majority neighborhood. That may well be American’s future looking at possible immigration projections and birthrate data. Will homosexuals and Muslims learn to live together? Probably not. The rate of homosexuality, whatever it is, will always remain static; meanwhile, the Muslim vote and extent of political influence will grow. It will be interesting to watch this dynamic play out over the coming years. Will the Left sellout a key constituency for another for a more-promising one with growth potential?

  58. Mr. Sibson, you are mistaken. An AR-15 is military hardware, it is not a gun. This is field tested military hardware that has no more of a place in the civilized world than a Hellfire Missile. Guns are not to be banned, military ordinance needs to be taken from the streets. There are some hunters that should be allowed to own and use this type of weaponry. The hunters that go after the wild boars in the south for one as well as the coyote hunters that rid us of those predators that harm the ranching industry. Ordinary people like the most of us, have no business owning this kind of military hardware on its own without consideration of the drum magazines, 30 round clips and targeting sights. How many of these AR-15’s do you own?

  59. Gays are not the problem Spencer, guns and the availability of them are. This guy was targeting Disney World, last I checked Mickey and Minnie were in some kind of relationship as heterosexual’s, but there is the consideration of Goofy as a threesome. This guy wanted to kill people, he could give a damn if they were gay, straight or even what color they were. He was an ISIS killer with a killing machine that congress folk like John Thune, Mike Rounds and Ms. NOem support with all their might. Face it, the Republican congress could do something about terrorists getting guns, but they support ISIS. I wonder how they get paid?

  60. HRC/Trump support police state. Bernie does not!

  61. happy camper

    Some of these semi-automatics are easily made in to full automatics. Thankfully this guy did not get the full military armored suit he wanted to buy. Why would civilians need that? Should it be legal to buy? He could have gone to Disney World or a public place and hardly been stopped.

  62. mike from iowa

    I don’t know how you can say Obama has made no effort to ban guns. He has been very consistent in saying that is what needs to be done, and so has Hillary.
    Sibby-you need help. You keep moving the goal posts. This conversation was never whether Obama has made attempts to ban anything. Get help.

  63. Mateen was gay. Social/cultural/religious pressures of nonacceptance of his identity conflicted this man’s mind to the degree that he would do great harm. He was in mental crisis, and our loose gun laws allowed him to unleash this carnage. Horrible for everyone. I am not convinced this is about ISIS.

  64. happy camper

    I do think he was in mental crisis, but I’ll always remember when I was in my lowest period a stranger who had probably seen me repeatedly at junior college in California came up to me and said: “I didn’t think I would ever tell this to someone (she hemmed and hawed), but you need to accept God. You need to get in touch with him.” I looked at her with confusion though she clearly understood that I was completely lost. I was very much the stranger in a strange land. I suspect it is very hard for the 2nd and 3rd generation to adapt. The first generation completely carries with them their absolute known values. The second and third are trying to bridge that gap, and in the case of Islam many of those things are absolutes.

  65. owen reitzel

    The Republicans have been trying to focus the conversation on terrorists which is part of the problem. I don’t think a connection as been made with ISIS except the shooter wanted to part of it.
    The real problem is the availability of guns. This guy was an American citizen and he was on the FBI’s radar but even with that he could legally buy guns. The senate tried to pass a law to try and keep guns out of the hands of people like this guy. The Republicans shot it down. Apparently being able to buy an assault rifle is more important then peoples lives.

    Obama has never and will never come after anybodies guns.

    Jerry is right. The AR-15 is a military weapon-not a gun. It’s only use is to kill.

  66. mike from iowa

    For some good news- the blood shortage was completely filled by noon today as Americans lined up around the block to give. A real estate agent offered several rental properties for free use to families of victims. JetBlue offered free tickets to immediate family and domestic partners of dead and injured. Equality Florida raised over $2 million bucks in a Go Fund Me account so far today.

  67. happy camper

    “he had been a sunny child who enjoyed skipping” hmmm

    Conflicted? What more could mess with your head than Islam?

  68. mike from iowa

    right wing kristaliban in the US of A.

  69. Jerry, I am not saying gays are the problem in this incident. I am just openly wondering when will the demographic transition be strong enough for Democrats to dump the gay lobby and leave them to fend for themselves with the rise of Islam in America. The rate of growth of Islam in America is projected to be 70% of the current population by mid-century. The LGBT community will only increase by a fraction of that. I have a hard time seeing the gay community winning this fight in the long run with our current immigration policy. Who is going to protect them? It will be a slow transition, but these cities with growing Muslim neighborhoods will quietly put a smothering wet blanket on the gay lobby and gay pride.

  70. Steve Sibson

    “Mr. Sibson, you are mistaken. An AR-15 is military hardware, it is not a gun.”

    Jerry, you are mistaken. The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting squirrels, it is about a militia of citizens.

    “The real problem is the availability of guns.”

    You are right Owen, there was not enough of them at the club. The government admits they can’t protect us, so it is time for some personal responsibility…which is something liberals can’t handle.

    “Equality Florida raised over $2 million bucks in a Go Fund Me account so far today.”

    It is not about equality, it is about money. Sounds a lot like crony capitalism doesn’t it.

  71. Douglas Wiken

    The real news about the Orlando shooting is that it will add more sympathy for gays and more reason to keep Islamicists out of the country and generate more support for Trump. Violence always has unforeseen consequences.

    Islam and modern democratic governments are incompatible. The Islamic idea is that government and religion should be the same thing. It really helps corrupt religious thugs and dictators.

  72. Intersectionality. Pay attention to that because it is the new word for something more accurate than “melting pot” and represents America’s electorate more accurately.

  73. Darin Larson

    We seem to have a lot of experts on Islam at DFP. Interesting that many Muslims in the Middle East can’t agree on their religious beliefs, but people half a world away in SD have it all figured out.

    I don’t have a problem condemning discriminatory beliefs, mistreatment of women, jihad, religious caliphate etc. etc. But to say that all or even most Muslims have these beliefs is just wrong and ignorant. It is exactly what the terrorists want–to sow the seeds of a world conflict between the West and Islam.

    I can see why the inflammatory speaker on Islam came to SD to ply his trade.

  74. Spenser, you have pretty much made the point of what really is the heart and soul of the Democratic party. I will make an assumption that you are a Democrat. You want to abandon the gays and let them fend for themselves. What you are advocating is exactly what Bernie is fighting for, all of us. Democrats can’t just abandon a group because something is found that is not liked. Real Democrats have always stood for those that cannot stand for themselves. That used to be the way Democrats were known for. You do not have to go to far back into the history of the Democratic party to see when your line of thinking is pursued by many in the party. That is what is rotten about it.

  75. Spencer, the doomsday scenario you describe (and your effort to play the Left into your xenophobia) give us all the more reason to recognize same-sex marriage as a constitutional right. We must establish and accept the jurisprudence that can withstand any hateful, homophobic political majority of the moment. We must make clear that our society is democratic, pluralistic, and inclusive. We must make clear that anyone who wants to live here must bend their religion to accept certain public equality for all people, including the people their interpretation of their Scriptures brands as sinners.

    Being American means saying, “My holy book tells me X, but the Constitution and the law tell me that, outside my house or my temple, I gotta accept not-X.” If you can’t handle that, you need a new holy book or a new country.

    Does that work for you, Spencer?

  76. The problem we have is not the gays nor is it the Muslims, it is us. The 9485 (more or less) gun murders that have happened in the US last year, are the problem. Granted, not all were killed with AR-15’s but they all died by violent death in a hail of bullets. Some here say that we do not think the law can protect us, then why do we call them when the crap hits the fan. I am not against guns, but am against some who are able to purchase them. I am not against guns, but am against those that have military grade weapons, armor along with questionable mental health issues. If you need protection, get a shotgun or a long gun. You will be safer and so will your family.

    Now we have the meme that the shooter was gay, how convenient, blame the victims because some classmate says the guy is gay. We ignore the facts that he was involved with a suicide bomber that did his work in Syria. Call him what he was, a terrorist. We know that there are many here that seek to commit violent acts against US citizens right here in the good ol US of A. Some are Muslims, but many many more are pissed off white guys. Call them what they are, terrorists. The problem is easy accessibility to military grade weapons, by anyone with the moolah to lay it on the counter.

  77. Article to back up Leo’s statement:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/orlando-shooter-reported-pulse-club-regular-patrons-article-1.2672445

    The killer was a regular at the nightclub for three years. A school friend said the killer said he was gay back in 2006. The killer’s first wife is asked if he was gay and needs several seconds before she can respond, “I don’t know.” Now that’s a mind-bender. All the categories run together here.

    Religion, self-loathing, psychosis, Satan… whatever motivated the crime, whatever the technical details of the weapons used, his ability to buy an assault rifle, a handgun, and lots of ammo without waiting and without good reason allowed him to kill more people more conveniently. Why can’t we do something to make it harder for SOBs to kill our neighbors? Why can’t we even talk about that without having absurd labels thrown at us? Why are gun industry profits more important than solving this problem?

  78. So was he gay or was he a swinger? The guy had a wife and his pos father claims he hated gays. Can it be both ways? What is the official FBI report on the guy I wonder? They questioned him more than once regarding terror threats. How did he manage to pull the wool over their eyes? It makes me not have so much confidence in our own justice system.

  79. This is from the why we cannot get stuff done at state level or on national level. http://www.nashvillepost.com/politics/article/20782472/holt-to-give-away-ar15s-at-fundraiser

    Here is an elected official. We are swirling the drain.

  80. happy camper

    If you can’t make sense of your life you’re gonna reach out for something. Tony Perkins later had a wife and kids but he first loved Tab Hunter, died of AIDS and probably hated himself. There’s a strong need to fit with what we’re supposed to do especially if mixed with one of the most controlling doctrines like Islam. Of course there are such things as bisexuals. We don’t know what drives these people, even ourselves, if we are not honest.

  81. John Kennedy Claussen, Sr.

    It is time that public policy recognized that gun violence is not only a criminal act, but also a civil act, but not in terms of some form of insane justification, rather in legal terms in the form of an actual product liability inevitability and responsibility, which gun manufacturers need to be held accountable…..

    Often our conservative friends, who often self claim to be pro-gun are also pro-market. They possess great faith in the market to solve all problems. Well, let us let the market help solve the gun violence which happens in America today by ending the legal protections which are currently afforded to gun manufacturers from potential tort lawsuits as a result of their guns being used in crimes which maim and kill people each day in America….. It seems to me that if a homeowner in America can be sued because someone has slipped and injured themselves on their property’s adjacent sidewalk, a sidewalk that you do not even own rather the city owns, then certainly its is only fair to make gun manufacturers responsible for the violence they manufacturer each day on their gun assembly lines….

  82. Media Malpractice: Trump/ISIS coverage same thing. Scaring the s— out of us to control us. Let’s start talking about the MONEY!

  83. Max Goodman

    It could be seen as ‘funny,’ sometimes, how conservative Christians have so much in common with conservative Muslims.

  84. Max Goodman

    Steve Sibson, you contort your reasoning to conform to your ideology like a Chris Farley style “Fat Man in a Little Coat” routine.

  85. mike from iowa

    Equality Florida raised over $2 million for victim’s families yesterday in a Go Fund Me account. Sounds like real, crony compassion,Sibby.

    If Mateen was gay, he did not belong to, with or for ISIS.

    Several accounts say Mateen was engaged in a firefight with three policeman at one time. If three trained, armed and equipped police can’t take this guy down, how the hell does any sane person expect a good guy with a gun to take him down. Get real, NRA!

  86. Steve Sibson

    “you contort your reasoning to conform to your ideology like a Chris Farley style “Fat Man in a Little Coat” routine.”

    You have me confused with Cory. His democratic pluralism is not working here and all he wants to do is ban guns as they allow Islamic fascists into this country who are using violence to express their “love” for Allah.

  87. Steve Sibson

    “If you can’t handle that, you need a new holy book or a new country.”

    So Cory, are you willing to fly over to the Middle east and tell that to the leaders of ISIS?

  88. mike from iowa

    OT-Drumpf#$k banned WaPo from his campaig activities for using Drumpf#$k’s own words to make him look bad.

    Drumpf#$k and others have basically accused Obama of aiding and abetting gay shooter in Orlando.

    Drumpf#$k has also banned,Univision, Des Moines Register, HuffPo, Buzz Feed, Politico, Daily Beast and New Hampshire Union Leader.

  89. Wow…

    A couple of you on both sides of this issue are so full of sh*t it is unbelievable. You want to point the finger at others and say that they just regurgitate what they hear on the news yet I can’t see how you can be doing any different because if you actually looked at the facts and analyzed things on your own you would not repeat some of the crap you say in here.

    First, John, your comparison to not being able to sue gun makers to people slipping on your sidewalk. Those two things are completely not comparable. Let’s run some more realistic comparisons:
    Like you can’t sue a fireworks manufacture when you start a fire with their product
    Like you can’t sue the box cutter knife company for 9/11
    Like you can’t sue the manufacture of zip ties for having their product used in an abduction
    Like you can’t sue BP because their fuel was used in arson
    In fact, I would like you to show me ONE example of when the maker of product can be sued when their product is used illegally. Show me.

    Someone slipping on your icy sidewalk is YOUR responsibility if YOU have not maintained the sidewalk as YOU are required to do which is why YOU can be sued. Your comparison would be more correct if they could sue the person who installed the sidewalk.

    Mike, you look like an idiot when you sit there and say things like Drumpf#$k. Just saying. Same applies to the other side when they say Killery. Grow the eff up. As for the story, Trump is right, the headline was completely misleading and had NOTHING to do with what he said – please prove me wrong. The fact that ‘WaPo’ changed that headline rather quickly tells me that they didn’t have a leg to stand on.

    The AR-15 is not military hardware… I was in the military, I used military hardware, and it was much more capable than the AR-15. Just wanted to say that but not arguing in this statement whether you are right or wrong for thinking people should not have them.

    Steve, to imply that Obama is purposely allowing these attacks to take place is ridicules. I don’t agree with many of Obama’s policies but I do believe he does what he thinks is right. Unfortunately I do believe he has opened us up to more risk of being attacked but you sound like a tool when you run around acting like this is what he wants – I don’t believe that for a second.

    Also Steve, the gay community is their own community mostly because of how they have been treated by those of us who are not in that community. They have struggled and fought together for so long why would you expect them to just fully integrate and blend right away? For now they have their own identity and that’s not going to change for awhile. There has been a lot of progress to treat them properly but they still have a couple battles left. I think given time we will all act as one, but I don’t expect that to happen overnight.

    Now I’m going to ramble, sorry if I jump around as I brain dump. New information keeps coming out on this case, it seems that things are not what we thought they were, turns out this guy was probably frequenting this place in the past and was probably gay himself (my interpretation and guess). So what is the root cause of this, I have to say it is intolerance, hate, and ultimately religion. This guy was not able to be accepted for who he was, could not even tell people who he was, and this ate away at him. He was probably ashamed of who he himself was, maybe even believed that to correct it he had to do more than just fix it for himself. I for one am somewhat relieved that ISIS was not involved, I hope that cuts down on the chance of another attack during the various events this month since it was not coordinated by the terrorist group regardless of what the POS pledged his alliances to. This guy was confused and I firmly believe that he was going to do what he did regardless of what tools might have been available. If it wasn’t a gun it would have been a pressure cooker or something else.

  90. Steve Sibson

    “Steve, to imply that Obama is purposely allowing these attacks to take place is ridicules.”

    How do you know that is not true, or are you just not willing to have an open mind?

    “the gay community is their own community mostly because of how they have been treated by those of us who are not in that community.”

    So they don’t want equality, they want to be considered superior because they know how to love…the rest of us don’t. So they conduct gay “pride” parades. Love is not based on the arrogance of being proud.

  91. Steve Sibson

    “turns out this guy was probably frequenting this place in the past and was probably gay himself (my interpretation and guess). So what is the root cause of this, I have to say it is intolerance, hate, and ultimately religion. This guy was not able to be accepted for who he was”

    Sad that you went on to blame the rest of us who are being charged with the inability to love, thus giving this guy justification. If he was gay, then the quilt was promoted by his Islamic teacher:

    “Nightclub murderer Omar Mateen was a follower of an imam who preached hatred of gays and who was recently released from prison — despite prosecutors warning that he had terror ties, according to a report.

    Mateen took lessons in the Islamic religion from Marcus Dwayne Robertson, a former gang leader from New York who now lives in Florida…”

    http://nypost.com/2016/06/13/nightclub-shooter-tied-to-radical-imam-who-was-an-ex-gang-leader/

  92. The lefts simplistic view of problems is sad. To blame people problems on guns does nothing but let those who perpetrate crimes be given an excuse. It is funny how the left quickly jumps to have confederate flags removed as they think that will end “racism”, but can not say the words radical islam, even though they are the people killing us. It is a sad day in our nation when Islamists are killing and scary the dickens out of everyone and the left wants to blame guns. It is a sad day in America when blacks are shooting each other nightly, 1700 so far in Chicago this year and the left wants to blame guns (43 shot over the weekend in Chicago the city with some of the toughest gun laws in the nation). I am also wondering would the left be so sympathetic if this attack would have happened in a Christian church or at the GOP National convention or would have there been a lot of “you reap what you sow”???

  93. Steve, my mind is open which is why I can look at things from both sides. I’m no obama supporter, I think he has made some aweful decisions and I definately don’t appreciate his involvement in some things that he should keep his nose out of or atleast wait for details before opening his mouth, but some of the crap you and others say about him is just idiotic. He’s not the devil.

    You say I have a closed mind but you can’t understand why the LGBT community bands together to support eachother? They did pride parades before anyone was willing to accept them for who they were – you would of prefered they just stay in the shadows though right?

    Simplistic views can be found on both the Right and the Left.

  94. happy camper

    It would be helpful to have an accurate narrative about his motives but that may never be possible unless he confided in someone about his true feelings. A therapist or one of these gay men he was seeing, but to call him gay may be oversimplifying. There are lots of bisexual men and although he grew up here Muslim men in their repressed countries often seek out sex with men. They see it as an act, not an identity. It’s a strange relationship to sexuality considering their laws and their religion and unhealthy because of the last two. We still have a lot to learn and accept about the natural things that drive us as animals. Religion gets in the way.

  95. barry freed

    Nate you will note your thoughts were first accepted without vitriol, but as you persist with logic and good intentions, Trolls will call you an Ammosexual and attack you personally. With the help of the Blogmaster, who also calls people Ammosexuals, it will become a dog pile of gun haters without a valid point or productive idea among them.

  96. Steve Sibson

    Nate, I too look at things from both sides. The premise that the president looks the other way and things happen is not just an Obama thing. This has been going on since WWI, according to Chad Hill who is no conservative conspiracy theorist. There was plenty of evidence that this guy was trouble, yet he was given special gun licenses from our government. Our government approved the gun purchases. The current gun control policies do not make us safe, so then those who say that giving up freedoms for the sake of safety will end up with us losing both have the correct analysis here. Those who are advocating this mistake are the ones who have also advocated allowing Islamists in the same place they allow the openly gay, all in the name of a democratic pluralistic society. So I am challenging the very thesis of Cory’s post.

    I don’t trust Trump, but certainly Hillary Clinton and President Obama are completely off base here. Their gun control ideas are so stupid, that there has to be a hidden agenda for them to allow the current circumstances to continue. And that agenda is also behind what is being reported by the mainstream media, including Fox News.

  97. Steve, me and you both agree that the gun control propsed by Obama and Hillary are a bad idea. I would have never supported Trump when we had options, but I trust Hillary even less.

    I fear what the next 4 years holds regardless of who wins this election.

  98. mike from iowa

    but can not say the words radical islam, even though they are the people killing us

    It is a sad day in America when blacks are shooting each other nightly, 1700 so far in Chicago this year

    Stumpy-if your first comment is true, your second has to be a lie. Or vice versa.

    Unless all Chicago Blacks are Muslims, which I seriously doubt.

    Barry, we all know guns are totally blameless. Even the “accidental” discharges that maim and kill. Even the guns that kill toddlers. Nope you can’t blame guns for doing what they were designed to do-now can we?

    As for the fat mouthed Drumpf#$K blaming Obama for the shootings, he has hinted, he has pushed every angle towards that conclusion-w/o actually saying it. Everyone knows what he means to say and in a week or so he will come right out and admit that was what he meant and then deny he ever said it. It it Drumpf#$k’s M.O. and he ain’t ever gonna change. He is your’s. You people created him and you are going to own him.

  99. mike from iowa

    WTF gun control are you two conspiring about? Obama and HRC coming to take yer guns?

    You do not need assault weapons to hunt Bambi and don’t bother trying to pass the bs an assault weapon is not an assault weapon. It was designed solely to slaughter humans.

  100. Mike you dumb down this blog site so much with your pathetic statements. You can never handle the truth and have to resort to stupidity. You do not want to look at or deal with real problems as it is easier to blame a gun. Continue with your drivel, knowing that the time taken to read your posts is criminal as you have stolen minutes of sane people’s lives!

  101. Steve Sibson

    “You do not need assault weapons to hunt Bambi”

    Yes, you need such guns to stop mass murderers. If you haven’t noticed, the Orlando police used them to end the attack. The 2nd Amendment says that you have the right to bear arms for the purpose of hunting cartoon characters? Yes, Mike dumbs down this blog.

  102. John Kennedy Claussen, Sr.

    Nate, you missed my point. Homeowners are held responsible for something that they do not even own and are force to have, but gun manufactures, who proactively create a given product, are not held accountable for its inevitable usage….

    As far as your “illegally” comment, well, you are still caught up in a criminal proceeding. I am talking about being liable in a civil proceeding. The fact that some states have passed laws to protect gun manufacturers from such lawsuits further proves the legitimacy of my claims…. There is also a thing called “economies of scale,” which come into play when you try to compare guns to “fireworks” or “zip ties” and the potential for tort lawsuits.

  103. Steve Sibson

    “gun manufactures, who proactively create a given product, are not held accountable for its inevitable usage”

    Sad that personal accountability is not part of the liberal vocabulary. If a gun fires differently than expected and kills the shooter, then that would be product liability. If a person decides to drive their car into a crowd of people then that person is responsible, not the manufacturer of the car.

  104. happy camper

    Calling all Republicans one thing and all Muslims one thing are similar generalizations. I get pegged for the second when referring to Islamic Radicalism which is a real thing and when discussing my dislike for Islamic Fundamentalism. The peace loving Muslims are not the issue, but their culture which spawns misogyny and hated of gays should be open territory. Their culture and upbringing confirms their superiority over women. German authorities didn’t want to label the mass assault on women on New Years as being Muslim immigrants which they simply were. People don’t want to talk about these things because of our PC mentality. It frustrates me a great deal that even feminists won’t call this out. There are simply some fundamental problems with Islam and those who call for reforms within the Muslim world are hated. These men have the power and like it the way it is. In the desire to learn and consider something new watch a video or two by Bill Warner, Sam Harris, Gad Saad. They are well educated professionals not crazy people.

    Discussion with Bill and Gad on Political Islam: http://tinyurl.com/h9zsggr

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

  105. Don Coyote

    @mike: “It is a sad day in America when blacks are shooting each other nightly, 1700 so far in Chicago this year”

    Won’t see too many AR-15’s being used in Chicago shootings. Weapon of choice of gangbangers is a 9mm handgun most likely illegally procured. Despite having some of the strictest guns laws in the country the carnage continues in Chicago.

  106. barry freed

    John Kennedy Claussen, Sr:

    If you were to get your ban and the elderly and physically weak are further subjected to home invasions and assaults, you will make them whole for your role (responsibility) for their damages?

  107. John Kennedy Claussen, Sr.

    Barry, I never mentioned the word “ban” in my aforementioned comments. You assumed. I am just suggesting to let the market prevail, the “invisible hand” instead of the handgun or an assault rifle in hand, in order to help solve the problem.

  108. mike from iowa

    You can never handle the truth and have to resort to stupidity.

    To have a conversation with the likes of you, Stumpy, I have to resort to stoopidity.

  109. Hang on, Sibby. I am perfectly clear about this axiom: there is no desirable alternative to democratic pluralism. If you want real liberty, you have to set the use of force and religious absolutism aside and make democratic pluralism work.

  110. mike from iowa

    Don- gangbangers are a whole other problem. Not just in Chicago,but across the nation. Handing out more guns is not going to solve the problems in Chicago or anywhere else. Whatever the solution is-it is not more guns.

    And for you smug ammosexuals- there will be a different Scotus soon and we will see how your 2nd Amendment fares with justices who don’t pull decisions out of their asses like the activist wingnut majority of recent note.

  111. Steve Sibson

    “you have to set the use of force and religious absolutism aside and make democratic pluralism work”

    That policy brings in those who use force to implement a Islamic worldwide theocracy. If there is no alternative, then when will the hammer come down on all who do not accept Islam as the only religion allowed? If you want liberty, then you have to reject Islam.

  112. You want overly simplistic, Stu? Check out Barry’s world, in which the response to home invasions is to hand trembling old ladies behind barred doors guns and say, “You’re on your own, Granny. Point and shoot.”

    I offer a much more complex, challenging, yet reliable and long-lasting solution: Let’s build a social contract in which we all take good care of each other; in which we minimize fear, hatred, racism, poverty, and whatever other social factors may spark crime by improving education, economic opportunities, and social services; in which families, friends, and neighbors stick together and respect each other’s common humanity and interests; and in which for those few lingering cases where we can’t get through to people, we stop deluding ourselves with John McLean fantasies and make it nigh-on-impossible for psychos to acquire tools of mass murder?

    As Jay Williams himself acknowledged, even that last, seemingly simple provision against certain dangerous tools is difficult, because we have a bunch of yahoos mistaking themselves for Minutemen and their absurd modern military-grade killing machines for turkey-shootin’ muskets. But I will speak for the Left or whatever bogeyman against which Stu karaoke-crusades that single reform is only a minor part of a far broader agenda for maintaining and improving civil society.

    “Every man for himself” is a life of brutality. “Every granny with a gun” is a life of terror. A society in which almost none of us has to reach for a weapon at any point in our lives thanks to robust social institutions, laws, and mores—that’s civilization.

  113. mike from iowa

    http://www.cnbc.com/2015/12/08/remington-under-fire-the-reckoning.html

    Lack of personal responsibility from one of America’s largest gun manufacturers.

  114. mike from iowa

    http://juanitajean.com/commemorative-killing-weapon/

    Here is a red blooded ‘murrican wingnut congresscritter from Tennessee who is so ashamed of what happened in Orlando he is giving away two,count ’em-2, AR-15s at his hog roast. One apparently wasn’t enough to get the awful taste of the word gay out of his ears. And he commits the mortal sin of calling them assault rifles-right in front of god and everybody.

  115. Roger Cornelius

    I’m nearly blind, do these ammosexuals really want to hand me a loaded gun?

    Sibson says, “Nate, I too look at both sides”. Thanks for your humor, Sibson. That has to be the laugh of the day.

  116. A big problem now is that too many bad people have gotten too many guns and most of them illegally. Now law abiding citizens feel they need weapons to protect themselves. The liberals have gone overboard on protecting criminals, having some sort of phobia or name for it seems everything that people do and once you brand them with some sort psychological condition then they are a protected class. We need to hold people accountable, whites, blacks, legals, illegals. We need to admit their is a problem in the inner cities that is not the white guys fault, with having too many babies, not wanting to conform to rules and not wanting to live by social norms. We have problem with Muslims who want us dead. I am hoping it is a minority of Muslims, but to put our head in the sand and act like that is not a problem is not going to help. Also, I have a safe full of guns. Some were my uncles who took me hunting and have now passed away, some were my dad’s who taught me the love of the outdoors and now has passed away, some I have won and purchased and use regularly for hunting. They have never taken a human life and I don’t blame them for our nation’s problems. With that said, I do not see a need for the sale of clips that can hold more than 5 bullets. I think as a start, banning clips larger than that would make sense, understanding there are already thousands of them out there. Also, assault rifles are really nothing more than a semi-automatic weapon like the ones many use for hunting. The look a little more menacing, but they are the same. They become far more dangerous when bad people get them along with 15 shot clips. I think the GOP would agree with a lot of what you said, caheidelberger , as long as people are held accountable, followed laws and made an effort to work for living and had some moral compass. Unfortunately I think that boat has left the dock.

  117. Steve Sibson

    “yet reliable and long-lasting solution”

    How do you argue that it is reliable? Orlando proved that it isn’t. I appreciate your intentions Cory, but they are not pragmatic. The socialist utopia is propaganda put out by those who want to take advantage of the masses.

  118. Law enforcement from the FBI on down is much like Mayberry. The FBI had investigated the terrorist at least three times and gave him the okay because he had a wife, a kid, and a job. Just like the San Bernardino terrorist, if you have a job and a wife, you are not considered a terrorist. Really make me feel secure with this kind of Homeland Security. How many billions is this costing us a year? Sounds like the same crew that investigated Rounds and Joop.

  119. happy camper

    Another horrible, unacceptable cultural difference, (We are not all the same) is something called Bacha Bazi, which is Afghan men who molest young boys:

    1) In 2015, The New York Times reported that U.S. soldiers serving in Afghanistan were instructed by their commanders to ignore child sexual abuse being carried out by Afghan security forces, except “when rape is being used as a weapon of war.” American soldiers have been instructed not to intervene — in some cases, not even when their Afghan allies have abused boys on military bases, according to interviews and court records. But the U.S. soldiers have been increasingly troubled that instead of weeding out pedophiles, the US military was arming them against the Taliban and placing them as the police commanders of villages — and doing little when they began abusing children.

    2) For centuries, Afghan men have taken boys, roughly 9 to 15 years old, as lovers. Some research suggests that half the Pashtun tribal members in Kandahar and other southern towns are bacha baz, the term for an older man with a boy lover. Literally it means “boy player.” The men like to boast about it.

    Sociologists and anthropologists say the problem results from perverse interpretation of Islamic law. Women are simply unapproachable. Afghan men cannot talk to an unrelated woman until after proposing marriage. Before then, they can’t even look at a woman, except perhaps her feet. Otherwise she is covered, head to ankle.

    “How can you fall in love if you can’t see her face,” 29-year-old Mohammed Daud told reporters. “We can see the boys, so we can tell which are beautiful.”

    A recent State Department report called “dancing boys” a “widespread, culturally sanctioned form of male rape.”

    3) Because it is so common, a significant percentage of the country’s male population bears the deep psychological scars of sexual abuse from childhood. Some estimates say that as many as 50 percent of the men in the Pashtun tribal areas of southern Afghanistan take boy lovers, making it clear that pedophilia is a pervasive issue affecting entire rural communities.

    There are some grave cultural differences. Some of these, like FGM, do continue after immigration. Who knows what Mateen or other Afghan kids experience even here. Ick I’ve never heard of this weird stuff. There’s a lot written on this. We don’t understand these different cultures and they can be very incompatible.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
    http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/brinkley/article/Afghanistan-s-dirty-little-secret-3176762.php
    http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tragedy/

  120. Steve Sibson

    “Let’s build a social contract in which we all take good care of each other; in which we minimize fear, hatred, racism, poverty, and whatever other social factors may spark crime by improving education, economic opportunities, and social services; in which families, friends, and neighbors stick together and respect each other’s common humanity and interests;”

    Cory, from a religious standpoint, what you describe is the building of heaven on earth. From the political left, that is being promoting religiously by the Social Gospel. From the political right, that is being promoted by Dominion Theology. Both are wrong. The Bible says the Kingdom will be built when Jesus Christ returns, and not before so by man.

    Could an atheist, along with two major religious/political movements be fooled by Satan? Instead of building heaven on earth, or a secular socialist utopia, you guys are instead setting up Satan’s kingdom that is in place during the Revelation’s Great Tribulation?

  121. mike from iowa

    Here is what President Obama said:

    “Let me make a final point. For a while now the main contribution of some of my friends on the other side of the aisle have made in the fight against ISIL is to criticize this administration and me for not using the phrase “Radical Islam.”

    “That’s the key” they tell us. “We can’t beat ISIL unless we call them Radical Islamists.”

    What exactly would using this label accomplish? What exactly would it change? Would it make ISIL less committed to kill Americans? Would it bring in more allies? Is there a military strategy served by this? The answer is none of the above.

    Calling a threat by a different name does not make it go away. This is a political distraction.

  122. mike from iowa

    Breaking News! This just in- radical Muslims all over everywhere flat out quit jihaddiing the hell around because Obama called them a name. They are finished. kaput! Hail Obama.

  123. Just out, Obama calls them what they are and says “Radical Muslims”. The world does not end and everyone now realizes that Obama finally understands who he is dealing with!

  124. Roger Cornelius

    President Obama, “Trumps yapping helps ISIS”.

  125. mike from iowa

    Obama swears to take on radical wingnut kristians and radical ammosexuals, says if we can’t ban guns-we can’t ban abortions,or birth control or sex education.

  126. Don Coyote

    “Calling a threat by a different name does not make it go away. This is a political distraction.”

    And yet Obama does that very thing when he characterized the Ft Hood terrorist attacks as “workplace violence” or the DHS referring to terrorism as a “man-made disaster”. Just another “do as I say not as I do” moment from our Lecturer in Chief.

  127. mike from iowa

    Coyote-what was the Ft Hood shooting if not,at least, workplace violence? It doesn’t qualify as a tea party does it?

  128. mike from iowa

    Stumpy-Obama wants you to direct his office of finding radical Muslims in America. Just walk up to any you see and ask if they are pork eating neds. Their reaction will tell you if they are radical or not.

  129. Steve Sibson

    Mike, thanks for the Obama quotes. Note he used ‘ISIL” instead of “ISIS”. Why? Because ISIL refers to the Levant, which excludes Israel as a nation:

    “When Barack Obama refers over and over to the Islamic State as ISIL, he is sending a message to Muslims all over the Middle East that he personally does not recognize Israel as a sovereign nation, but as territory belonging to the Islamic State.”

    http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/coded-message-obama-delivers-says-isil-instead-isis/

    So we have more proof that Obama is Islamic, not Judeo-Christian. And perhaps he no longer wants America to be a nation, but part of the Islamic State too. So could the Islamic State be the one-world system that Satan will use during the Great Tribulation?

  130. Mike, I am not an abortion advocate, but I know of one that if would have happened would have jumped the IQ average of the entire nation!

  131. Steve Sibson

    And it will be much easier for the Islamic State to chop off our heads if Obama and Hillary can take away our AR15s.

  132. mike from iowa

    Stumpy, it is toooooooooo late to be the hero now. You had your chances. Aborting yourself is like putting your finger in a pail of water and then pulling it back out. That hole left behind where your finger was is the difference your leaving this world would make- exactly none.

  133. W R Old Guy

    Really Sibby? You need to get away from those sites and see the real world. ISIS applies only to the Islamic State of Iraq and/or Syria. ISIL covers the area from Egypt to Turkey in which the militants have performed operations. They do not recognize any of the existing governments in Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Turkey. The L stands for Levant. It has nothing to do with the President’s like or dislike of a particular state.

  134. mike from iowa

    Sibby-you’ll function just fine w/o your head.

  135. Roger Cornelius

    The FBI and Secret Service need to investigate Sibson, the guy is having a major meltdown that may lead to Marteem type violence.

  136. Steve Sibson

    “The L stands for Levant. It has nothing to do with the President’s like or dislike of a particular state.”

    Yes the L stands for Levant, that is what I said. It has everything to do with like or dislike of Israel. Why are you denying that?

    Mike and Roger, is that the best you guys can do…express hatred?

  137. W R Old Guy

    I didn’t deny it Sibby. I simply pointed out that Levant covers the entire area I posted. Under Levant none of those countries has a right to exist. The term is not specific to Israel.

  138. Stu, we need to bring that boat back. We need to assert our belief in civil society and instill it in our children.

    So when does the “few bad apples” principle finally kick in here?

    Maybe we should treat guns like abortions: make them safe, legal, and rare.

  139. What we call ISIS/ISIL/Da’ech, what we call Omar Mateen, and what we call Mateen’s bang-bangs are all distractions from the main practical and moral issues that we must resolve.

  140. mike from iowa

    It is called payback, Sibby. Karma, Kismet reaping what you sow. What comes around goes around. Etc,etc.

  141. mike from iowa

    Newt Gingrich wants to bring back the House Un-American Activities Committee-prolly to impeach Radical Muslim Obama.

  142. Max Goodman

    I completely, totally, blame the religious right for demonizing some people’s sexuality to the point where they might feel so innately bad about who they are, that they commit suicide or lash out in a mass killing.

    If anyone ever tries to tell you you’re living a life of sin, tell them, as Jesus Christ did, “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

    Steve Sibson, you’re a lunatic.

  143. Steve Sibson

    “The term is not specific to Israel.”

    So Obama and his Islamic fascists want to turn the entire region, including Israel, into a Islamic Theocracy. And you have no moral issue with that Cory? From a practical standpoint, allowing an Islamic presence is not conducive to democratic pluralism.

  144. Mr. Sibby, would you stop blathering about it if we could all agree to call them “those guys?”

  145. “So Obama and his Islamic fascists want to turn the entire region, including Israel, into a Islamic Theocracy.”

    Prove it. Provide a link to a credible mainstream media news source that quotes Obama saying your above accusation. Anything from a right-wing, nut job “news” source is not credible. And if you can’t find a link, then STFU. Your seedy past gives you NO credibility. Your personal history will always be over your head. Haunting you. Standing in the way of you ever being elected to public office.

  146. Steve Sibson

    “Prove it.”

    Obama says “ISIL”.

  147. Max Goodman

    I just cannot help but feel need to say, one last time, Steve Sibson is a lunatic.

  148. Steve Sibson

    Cory, it is actually sad that you are not open minded enough to shed the lies that you believe is true. Your analysis is way to narrow.

  149. [Hey, folks, we’re giving Steve’s distractions more attention than they deserve. He’s not here to talk solutions. He’s here because no one bothers to read his blog, and this comment section is his easiest route to attention. I granted him permission to return to the comment section a few weeks ago, hoping for change in his approach. He has responded with his usual distractions, turning every post on which he comments into a discussion of him, his shibboleths (the obscure code words he uses to drag us onto his isolated verbal turf and make the conversation less accessible to the general public), and his general rage. Sibson isn’t here to learn or to help the general public understand the issues. He’s here to advertise himself.]

    [Stop making Sibson the focus of your comments. Consider my approach: if you respond to him at all, respond with restraint. Preferably, focus on comments that might actually advance the discussion and the public’s understanding of real issues.]

  150. mike from iowa

    Levert (Gerald) covered Wind Beneath My Wings, (They Long to Be) Close to You, Hello It’s Me and 4 others.

  151. mike from iowa

    The term is also occasionally employed to refer to modern events, peoples, states or parts of states in the same region, namely Cyprus, Egypt, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and Turkey are sometimes considered Levant countries (compare with Near East, Middle East, Eastern Mediterranean and Western …

  152. Steve Sibson

    Cory, sad that you have decided to return to that path of the social justice bullies by threatening another ban. That approach is not much different than Trump’s proposal to curtail the immigration of those who promote violence and are our enemies.

    My reason for being here is to give you folks the other side of the issue so you can test your worldview. The test here is can your democratic pluralism survive the acceptance of Islam? There are 49 in Orlando who did not survive it, so how can taking guns away from us Americans going to help us defend ourselves from those who want to kill us? There is no perfect solution to violence. Our only hope is being able to defend ourselves. Out government has proven that it can’t protect us, even with their surveillance.

    And I agree with your position that those who disagree with me should not focus on me, but on the content of my positions. I hope they listen. If they don’t, perhaps you should consider banning them.

  153. barry freed

    Cory,
    That is not what I said. You can’t come up with a thoughtful response, so you distract. Other school debate coaches must tell everybody to move closer to the infield when your team is up to bat.

    You go first with your social contract. Go after the SOS over the machinations of the Marijuana IM as you would if it were your own IM. Don’t be talking Social Contract when you won’t use your blog to defend the right of all IM’s to be voted on by the People.

    You think that when a gun goes off, police sirens are heard 4 seconds later, but life is not like TV. That old lady is on her own for 20 minutes or more. If the cops come at all.

    Someone said here that you once took up arms against someone in your yard. You take a hypocritical position, you can be armed, but the old lady who can’t pick up a bat and use it has to die to appease your wants.

  154. Steve Sibson

    And in regard to the point of finding solutions. Will we find the best solution by opposing views running off the separate blogs and morally supporting those they agree with and making fun of the other blogs that don’t? Or should we have the courage to speak directly with each other?

  155. barry freed

    Roger said: I’m nearly blind, do these ammosexuals really want to hand me a loaded gun?,

    In Animal House, when Dean Wormers said: “Son, fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life”, did you laugh or look down where your boots should be?

  156. mike from iowa

    Give it a rest,Barry. That elderly lady is either A) begging for someone to break in so she has someone to talk to, or B) she is just sure Sir Barryhad and his good gun will bust through her wall and save her in the nick of time-just like in some wingnut’s fevered imagination. Of course,there is a better than even chance the good guy with the gun ends up killing her by mistake.

  157. mike from iowa

    Or should we have the courage to speak directly with each other?

    Why don’t you bring your lord and saviour along. I’d enjoy a face to face with him/her/it, Sibby. He/she it does exist, right?

  158. mike from iowa

    OMG-wingnuts hold Obama nominee hostage over Iran Nuke deal 400 days after he was nominated.

    http://wonkette.com/602969/senate-still-holding-up-vote-on-obamas-anti-terrorism-nominee-in-case-you-were-wondering

  159. Maybe we are going about this all wrong, cannot stop anyone to get a gun if they want one so maybe we should prepare for the future how to k ow who has one. Detectors put on businesses. “Chip” future manufactured guns, within the metal so cannot be removed. Software could also detect any “chips” around you so you know, Chips won’t help pre-2016 but the detectors on businesses would take care of that. We cannot afford to spend another 10 years debating gun control. It’s wasted time…..

  160. Steve Sibson

    ” Detectors put on businesses.”

    The Orlando shooter would have walked right by the detector. It ended when the shooter was out gunned. Unfortunately it took police 3 hours to do that.

  161. mike from iowa

    Nice try,T, but the NRA will not stand for any modification that helps identify guns or owners. They will scream it leads to confiscation as if Obama and now HRC haven’t taken all their guns away already. But I digress, it is us Libs that are unreasonable.

  162. mike from iowa

    Sibby, please hear my cry.
    Go ahead and tell me why,
    3 cops could not take this shooter down.

    Sibson, please hear my plea.
    Won’t you explain to me-
    how untrained gunners save that town?

    Sibby, I don’t want to bother you because I’m in distress.

    All this needless killing leaves my heart in a mess.

    All I ask is for your side to make this all stop.

    Pretend your a cop.

  163. Steve Sibson

    My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban as soon as I take office. Within 90 days, we will go back after kitchen table dealers, and work to end the gun show and internet sales loopholes. In the first year, I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns.”

    –Barack Obama, VPC Fund Raiser, 2007

    And then yesterday:

    Obama added. “Reinstate the assault weapons ban. Make it harder for terrorists to use these weapons to kill us.”

    http://www.reuters.com/article/florida-shooting-obama-idUSL1N196199

    He didn’t say that would stop the Islamic fascists from killing us. Sad that he would use 49 deaths to justify implementing his political dream to ban guns.

  164. mike from iowa

    Come to Florida or Don’t.

    FLORIDUH-the land of equal opportunity. If the gators don’t getcha, the gayhaters will.

  165. Untrained gun owners??? What makes you think that gun owners are untrained. Just because your pea brain couldn’t figure out how to operate a gun does not mean the rest of us don’t know how to use one. I just wonder how wild you guys would be about gun rights and empathy if this had taken place in a Christian Church or at the GOP Convention?? My guess is there would be far less screaming from the wackos like Mike and the LBGT community.

  166. You might know how to shoot them Stu but how would you react in a situation like Orlando. I don’t think anybody knows for sure. I’m sure a cop who has had intense training for these situations doesn’t even know for sure.

    The only wackos are those that love guns over anything else, including common sense.

  167. mike from iowa

    Stoopid Stumpy- three trained professionals ehgaged this shooter and could not stop him, you idjit. How would you have fared? You’d blame Obama because that is all you whiny,freaking ammosexuals ever do. Obama’s coming to take my guns. I’d have stopped this guy if only…..

  168. Good call, Stu on the nobody would care about a church being shot up. I remember how little attention the mass shooting at the methodist church in Charleston, SC got. “Why doesn’t someone report on this?” I asked. Nobody has any idea who Dylan Roof is, right? Oh. Wait.

  169. So you are saying that had there been 27 people in there with concealed weapons that there would have been no chance that things could have ended better???? Florida has 1.5 million active handgun permits and this guy picks a gun free zone. There are about 16 million people over the age of 18 in Florida. Using simple stats, if this would have been in an area where guns were legal to carry, with 300 people in the nightclub about 27 statistically would have been carry a gun. I like everyone’s odds better when there are 27 guns against 1 than none against 1. At least in Minnesota, you have to take a class and have knowledge of the weapon and how to use it before you get a permit. They don’t hand them out like they do disability checks and other welfare like they do for you Mike.

  170. mike from iowa

    Stumpy-you are too stoopid to argue with. There was no reason in the world-or Orlando concealed carry law-that someone in that club wasn’t carrying a gun. I posted the f#$king law, you f$%king maroon. You are just too stoopid to read and understand it.

    3 trained officers couldn’t take him down, but Sir Stumpyhad could’ve I’ll bet.

  171. I have not looked up statistics on homosexuals and conceal and carry. There is a possibility that homosexuals are less likely to own guns. I noticed he didn’t pick a country western bar. I am not being flippant, but if he knew there were a good percentage in there with weapons, my guess is he would have thought twice. You can call me any color you want, but don’t ever call me maroon again, you waste of sperm!! It was a gun free zone, where it is illegal for law abiding citizens to be carrying a gun. Just because you know nothing about weapons, doesn’t mean the rest of us are also mentally challenged. I will stick with my guns and you stick to your hobby of looking up porn on your computer and occasionally posting delusional thoughts on an otherwise mostly sane blog!

  172. Stu. Can you have a gun in a country western bar in Florida?

  173. mike from iowa

    Hey maroon- I posted the law from the city of Orlando, Florida. I’ll repost the relevant part. Can you read?

    We have researched this issue including contacting the concealed weapons division of the Florida Department of Agriculture and have received this response. While this letter and its opinion are not authoritative, the general sense is that concealed weapons may be legally carried by a CWFL holder into a business that serves alcohol but not as a primary business, however a concealed weapons carrier should stay out of portions of that business where the service of alcohol is the primary function, i.e., the bar area of a restaurant.)

    The business had armed security. So it wasn’t gun free.

    I want you to show me one single mass murder site that was chosen primarily because it was considered gun-free.

  174. House votes to protect dark money donors 240-180.

    Seriously, this happened on Tuesday. Maybe the gun manufacturers wish to remain in the dark too? They had to act fast!

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-congress-idUSKCN0Z02PO

  175. Roger Cornelius

    Dicta,
    Where in the hell were you when the shootings at the Black church in South Carolina went day.
    There were days of coverage on the major networks and here on DFP.
    The coverage of the shooting was so intense that it led to the state removing the confederate flag from the capital.
    Come out of your cave once in awhile, Dicta.

  176. mike from iowa

    Roger, Dicta was being facetious towards Stumpy. Consider it snark.

  177. The removal of the confederate flag had nothing to do with a church being shot up, but nice try.

    It was a gun free zone and patrons were not allowed guns.

  178. Bill Dithmer

    New from THE CHURCH OF BILL, the worlds only for profit church, the first comprehensive Real Religion Test RRT.

    Would you like to know how your religion stacks up against the best?

    Aren’t you the least bit curious if you’ve been giving to the wrong religion?

    Isnt it time to find out once and for all what religion God favors?

    At THE CHURCH OF BILL we have developed a test to determine if your religion is real, or fake, yes it is that simple.

    For a religion to qualify for testing it must be recignized as a world religion with at least 500,000 members. It is for those religions that choose 501c status in the US, not for those that have decided to forgo their tax free status, much like THE CHURCH OF BILL. Native spiritualism would be exempt, nobody is trying to make a killing there. Wait, I’m told thats not true, oh well thats another problem for another day.

    Our test will be conducted on January 1 2020 to give everyone the chance to put their best competitors forward. It will be televised, and it will be winner take all. When this test is over we will know what that “real” religion is, and we wont need to follow blindly ever again.

    Here is how the test will work. We know that most of the major religions have different beliefs within that religion. We will need to have preliminary compitition to narrow those down to one representative per major religion. Finding the perfect representative for their faith might take a couplt of years, remember its all or nothing on Jan 1 2020.

    Example, Catholics against protestants, or Sunni against Si a. Ya I know its not that simple but the major religions have to find their best man to control humanity.

    Side note, Mormons, scientology followers, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, have been lumped together in a special catagory, fantasy religion.

    INNER FAITH COMPITITION

    Each religion will hold compitition to narrow their representative to one man. The name of that person must be submitted to this body no later then July 28th 2019. If at any time one of these competitors dies before the contest, their religion is automatically desolved.

    All test will be exactly the same from inner faith to the finals. Here are the items needed to hold a qualifying event

    1. One white sheet
    2. One Glock 40
    3. One network up link
    4. Reflective tape

    Each competitor will compete individually. First the Mc announces the persons name, then who they represent, then who is helping them with the test.

    Then comes the “hanging of the sheet.” Each sheet will be bright white. It will be hung in the same place for each competitor and changed after every test.

    There will be a piece of tape placed on the floor five feet from where the sheet is hung. There will also be tape where the competitors stand against the sheet.

    Each religion will pick a helper for their contestant.

    The contestants stand with their feet on the tape with their backs to the sheet. Meanwhile, the helper stands on the tape at the five foot line. After the formalities, the CHURCH OF BILL has picked Larry The Cable Guy to be the special agent that hands the Glock to the helper at which time the helper will be put on a five minute clock. Sometime within that five minutes he must raise the gun point it at the chest of the player, and pull the trigger. Failure to pull the trigger means that religion is desolved. If the gun fires and the person dies, the religion is done.

    If there is a misfire, it will be treated as a mirical and they move on to the next round. If the gun fires and there are no wounds, the contestant moves on to the next round. This continues until there is only one person standing, proving that their religion is the only true religion. We use the Glock 40 because we dont want any arguments. Either the contestant is shot dead or disqualified , there wont be anyone limping away from this test.

    From January 1 2020 on, there would only be one religion.

    The Blindman

  179. barry freed

    troll from iowa.

    A: Blame the helpless victim. Go you liberal, you!

    B: Shot by the rescuer? ” a gun in the home is far more likely to result in accidental harm than to ever be used against a potential assailant.”

    The Kellerman survey has long been debunked as junk science. He used the notorious case control method, good for medical research, but lousy for social research. He is a health policy researcher, not a criminologist and his work is funded by the anti gun lobby.

    Case control means you do NOT study the instances where the “disease,” does not occur.
    In other words, he studied homicides… and in those homes drug use, domestic violence prevailed. Plus they were in non typical U.S. communities. Pretty shoddy research I’d say.

    When confronted Kellerman went from 43 times more likely, to 20 something, then to 1 or two. And when asked if an intruder came into his home would he want his wife armed, he replied, as anyone with a brain would, “Yes. Of course.”

    The American public has been passively swallowing nonsense like this for 30 years now…(Reagan Brady shooting kicked off the Vote Whore rush for a cause).

    Want the truth? Well, how about a criminologist, award winning by his own peers (and you know academics when it comes to competition), refuses any financial support from either faction in the gun debate, is, of all things, a card carrying ACLU member, a liberal and registered democrat. Can you beat that for cred?

    He revealed the startling truth of the immense cost benefit ratio of risk in gun ownership in the U.S. to be heavily on the benefit side, and there is NO logical way around it. Attempt to refute his findings have ended embarrassingly for those trying from the anti gun crowd by paid for attackers, with Kleck easily exposing their silly attempts as fraud.

    You have, as has the American public, been victimized by the Big Lie technique. Thoroughly. I once was too, so don’t feel bad. But as a liberal scholar I make it a point to look for facts, use logic to assess, and rely and scientists with actual credibility in their person and methods.

    This is one of those.

    http://www.rense.com/general76/univ.htmI googled “Cops shoot victim instead” to see if your latest fantasy had merit.

    http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed/

    http://filmingcops.com/cop-shoots-innocent-mother-to-death-in-front-of-her-child-opens-fire-on-pet-dog-receives-paid-leave-with-no-charges/