Last updated on 2017-08-03
I don’t support Ehab Jaber’s brandishing of guns and f-bombs, but he didn’t say anything on Facebook as truly threatening to the safety of our nation as the lies of anti-Islam speaker Shahram Hadian. A group of South Dakotans armed with only their critical thinking skills attended the April 9 fear fest document Hadian’s lies in an open letter in today’s Sioux Falls paper:
Hadian gave several examples from scripture, taken out of context to build an argument that the Prophet Muhammed actively incited violence, and that all Muslims today intend to do the same. Hadian spoke from his experience escaping from Iran with his family during the Iranian Revolution. This traumatic event clearly and understandably had a great effect on him, but it is illogical to conclude that all Muslims should then be characterized as violent people intending to take over our government. That is true paranoia [Pam Naessig, Sister Lynne Marie Welbig, Samantha Spawn, The Rev. Michael Carlson, Jack Billion and Scott Moeller, letter to the editor, that Sioux Falls paper, 2017.04.23].
I offer no defense of Islam—that’s up to its adherents. But Hadian’s apparent conclusions from the Iranian Revolution could lead to problematic conclusions about the American Revolution: may descendants of Tories who left for Halifax and London justifiably conclude that all descendants of Revolutionary Americans are hell bent on violently overthrowing governments?
Just like the anti-Islam shouters who come to Aberdeen, Hadian asserted that members of our community are conspiring against American interests:
Hadian said that he would “bet [his] life” on the fact that the Islamic Center of Sioux Falls is part of the Muslim Brotherhood, a fundamentalist Islamic organization. The truth is that the founders of the ICSF have no out-of-state connections nor have they ever received any money from any organization supported by the Brotherhood. Their mission is to serve the local community and build bridges with other faith groups in the area [Naessig et al., 2017.04.23].
And like our Aberdeen liars, Hadian accuses some local Christians of conspiring with jihadists:
Hadian also stated, falsely, that Lutheran Social Services, which is active in South Dakota and in many other states, receives $2 billion in taxpayer dollars to resettle refugees and that there is “no vetting process” for those refugees. This statement is similar to our state legislature’s Senate Bill 124 and Senate Concurrent Resolution 15, legislation that initially expressed “no confidence” in our state’s only refugee resettlement agency. The truth is that refugees are vetted by UNHCR and multiple federal government agencies in a 20-step process that can take up to 2 years to complete [Naessig et al., 2017.04.23].
Ehab Jaber was stupid to go online and wave his guns around. But far more South Dakotans are listening to conspiracy theorists wave lies around and hailing those lies as truth. That embrace of lies poses more danger to our community than any of Jaber’s words that the state has labeled a “terroristic threat.”
Efforts to demonize Islam cannot be tolerated any more than efforts to demonize Judaism, Christianity or any other faith. We must use all available platforms to join others in speaking out against hatred and intolerance.
Islam is not just a religion, it is an ideology. It has generated little but violence and discord since it bypassed the enlightenment and forgot about developing algebra and being scientific. If you are wondering what destroys supports for Democrats, supporting radical Islamists will not make being a Democrat any easier in SD.
Mr. Wiken’s statements are far to general to be valid.
1. By definition all religions are ideologies.
2. Islam has generated millions of happy followers for centuries.
3. Conflating Islamophobia with the decline of Democratic support in a +24 Republican state is without legitimacy or foundation.
Douglas, what in your opinion should we, as Americans, do to the American citizens who share that “ideology” but have not committed any crimes or wrongful acts? Place them in interment camps? Gitmo? What remedy would alleviate your fears?
Once you solve the American Islam problem, what in your opinion should be done to the 2.2 million people world wide who that “ideology”? War? Pre-emptive bombing to kill as many of the human beings as possible? What remedy would make you feel safer?
BCB … from past postings I don’t believe Mr. Wiken wants to feel anything but contrary at every opportunity.
I am not advocating that we adopt the same murderous policies as the radical Islamists who bomb and kill innocents. But, we do not need to destroy American culture by allowing more immigrants who do not share any interest in adopting that culture or even adapting to it.
I dust finished reading flattering reviews of 4 books on Islam and its history. They were such twisted logic that they would make your head spin.
I think Indians may well have made the same arguments Mr. Wiken. In fact, I am sure of it from historical accounts.
Mr. Wiken does bring to the table an interesting fact regarding science and math in the Muslim world. http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-the-arabic-world-turned-away-from-science
The Arab world of old was way above the other civilizations for its time. I have a theory that because of their advancement, they just farmed it out to others. The United States is doing the same thing regarding education, inventions and discoveries. We have been neglecting our own education system to glean knowledge from abroad with immigrants and through various immigration policies. It is no secret that Silicon Valley is developing its clone in British Columbia to allow the free thinkers to come and develop without fear. Mr. Wiken accurately tells of our future that we can clearly see with trump taking us back to crapping in the street.
Douglas, then your only remedy is to have a religious ideology test for immigrants? How does that alleviate your fear of Muslims already here? Are you comfortable allowing America’s Muslim community to practice their “ideology,” raise their kids in that “ideology,” and try to convince others to join that ideology here in the USA?
As for your immigration test, would you exclude only families that are Muslim, or are there other religions out there that frighten you, such as Satanism or Wicca? Would you also exclude former Muslims who claim to have left Islam? Would you exclude children related to Muslims?
And Porter, I have read some excellent comments from Douglas over the years, as well as some comments that I found troubling. I think his opinions are an important part of any discussion, even if he shares some viewpoints that I strongly disagree with.
bear,
We asked the same question of happy camper on another recent thread and did not get a real answer.
What do anti-Islamist and anti-Muslim Americans want to happen to those we strongly disagree with?
Wiken and others seem to think that Muslims that come here should be packaged and ready to accept his standard of American culture and behaviors and to be like all Whites.
The haters refuse to say precisely how they would exercise any control of Muslims.
Here’s what I do know, if Muslims are being murdered in their ancestral lands by their governments and if those murders don’t happen soon enough the U.S. will go into the Middle East and do it for them. Further complicating the threat to their lives, when they come here they are persecuted by Christian groups and their hate campaigns. There are so many Muslims that just can’t win.
So, are you apologists for Islamic extremism and ideology planning to leave for one of those countries with majority Moslem populations? If so, which one. I find it ironic that recent immigrant groups who have to leave their hell-hole countries or poverty-stricken slums desire to convert the US into their systems of religion and governments.
Most of those countries would obliterate themselves if we just dumped enough weapons in that the multiple sects each knowing they are doing holy work could slaughter each other. Which should remind us of the guy in Sioux Falls who bought multiple weapons because he detested Christian extremism.
Let me see, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen all seem to be places that we have no problem with sending our sons and daughters to. How about Qatar, the Arab Emirates, Dubai also good on the list for Americans. Jordan, perhaps. Israel, maybe. Lebanon, the Paris of the East or Beirut. There are plenty of weapons there already, we should know thanks to the lies of Bush and the media, we broke that fragile part of the world to unleash the misery. We own it Mr. Wiken, it is ours. We can just set back in our little rooms and watch Fox to tell us how great we are…until the next attack.
What you may find ironic is that climate change has made significant reasons for the exodus Mr. Wiken. We may all take that into consideration as we look down from our ivory towers. In this country, before anyone can even think of, there were civilizations that were as advanced as humanly possible. They build irrigation systems that almost seem impossible by today’s standards and yet they disappeared because of changes in the climate.
Doug Wiken – Free Press posters apologizing for extremists? Got any examples? I find most of the things you say to be far more extreme than the followers of Allah I associate with. Once again you generalize about people of which you know none. I suppose that being an extremist yourself you filter your input through that perception. *That’s a long winded way of sayin’ you’re a damn kook.
Feel free to call me any names you wish in order to make yourself feel superior.
Other than hear Christian extremists claim that Muslim’s are taking over the country I have not seen or heard any evidence of it.
Jerry’s link is very interesting. It is long and in small type, but the type can be enlarged by pressing CRT- Plus. Buried in the midst of the detailed history of Islamic thought and science and its decline is this “As a way of articulating questions that lie deeper than the Ash’arism-Mu’tazilism debate, it is helpful to briefly compare Islam with Christianity. Christianity acknowledges a private-public distinction and (theoretically, at least) allows adherents the liberty to decide much about their social and political lives. Islam, on the other hand, denies any private-public distinction and includes laws regulating the most minute details of private life. Put another way, Islam does not acknowledge any difference between religious and political ends: it is a religion that specifies political rules for the community.”
The consequences of that give an indication of the possible deleterious consequences of the Trumpites anti-science attitudes in the US.
But, whatever are your ideas on Islam, Jerry’s link is very much worth the time it takes to read all of it.
And if you adapt the culture and religion of those areas, you can make sure your daughter are sexually mutilated.
But at the village level, those who commit the practice believe it to be religiously mandated. Religion is not only theology but also practice. And the practice is widespread throughout the Middle East. Many diplomats, international organization workers, and Arabists argue that the problem is localized to North Africa or sub-Saharan Africa,[4] but they are wrong. The problem is pervasive throughout the Levant, the Fertile Crescent, and the Arabian Peninsula, and among many immigrants to the West from these countries. Silence on the issue is less reflective of the absence of the problem than insufficient freedom for feminists and independent civil society to raise the issue.
The Jewish right of circumcision has been a practice for centuries, does that constitute genital mutilation?
Douglas, why do you suppose so many Muslim countries have outlawed female circumcision (I assume that is what you are referring to) if the practice is required by Islam?
https://www.reproductiverights.org/document/female-genital-mutilation-fgm-legal-prohibitions-worldwide
Do you think male circumcision for religious purposes by Jewish families should also be made illegal?
Porter asks my question, Douglas: at what point have I expressed support for a radical Islamist? At what point has any prominent South Dakota Democrat expressed support for radical Islamists?
Ehab Jaber does not appear to be a radical Islamist as much as a hothead, and I haven’t expressed support for him personally or any Islamist views he may hold. Did you have someone else in mind?
Just as an aside … My church (UCC) taught me that American Mainstream Christians circumcise boys so no group like the Nazis can ever again use circumcision as a way to identify Jews. It just so happens it’s a health and cleanliness aid, also.
Well, maybe I misread Cory’s post and support for that position. I did not say it was the difference between winning and losing in SD, just that this type of post does not help Democrats win.
As far as I can tell, circumcision does not remove the penis. However….Clitoridectomy or clitorectomy is the surgical removal, reduction, or partial removal of the clitoris. It is rarely used as a therapeutic medical procedure, such as when cancer has developed in or spread to the clitoris. It is often performed on intersex newborns.
Being phony and acting like selfish Republicans is worse for SDDP than losing elections or voter registration numbers.
Question: Do half of all babies born in SoDak have a Democratic left thinking brain and half of all babies have a Republican right thinking brain? If not, then party affiliation is a learned experience. It so happens 75% of the babies born in SoDak (that don’t move away) grow up to have a Republican right thinking brain. Can this be changed? Should Democrats try to change what someone has a total right to think? Or … is the only way to equal the registration numbers to stop the Democratic left thinking people from moving away? Do you think keeping these left thinkers moving away is a silent plank in the Republican platform? Many of their political actions (repealing the People’s Ethics Commission and Campaign Finance Reform) seem to indicate that it is.
Porter and I are operating on a similar wavelength. I didn’t write this post with an eye toward electoral advantage. I wrote this post with an eye toward truth. The lies spread by Hadian, Clare Lopez, Ron Branstner, Donald Trump, and Steve Bannon are more dangerous to American national security than any public statement I’ve heard from Ehab Jaber.
True that Mr. Wiken, from my link ” “Put another way, Islam does not acknowledge any difference between religious and political ends: it is a religion that specifies political rules for the community.”” But this is nothing new regarding religion. It can be said that the “Inquisition” proved that this continued through the time Columbus sailed from Spain that shows the brutality religion played on the native people it found to be ready for abuse with “enlightenment” . It can also now be said that the Dominion Movement http://www.politicalresearch.org/2016/08/18/dominionism-rising-a-theocratic-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight/#sthash.Vh5dETZi.dpbs that we are now seeing in the United States is about to be sprung with Gorsuch being the completion of the circle. Look for more Church instead of State in our lives. Who will be the Arch Bishop of Pierre in some shade of religion hint: Not a Catholic, or maybe.
All empires have a life expectancy, The Arabs had theirs and farmed out their knowledge while loosing the written form in the great disaster in Alexandria. The Romans had theirs until they farmed out their defenses to contract military to protect them. The list goes on before and after until we now see ourselves looking very much the same with a Dominion approach now to science and governance. We speak of the mutilation of women while we diminish their own being, much like past empires have mistreated them. The cut of the knife or the enslavement of the soul, both are meant to destroy well being and open thought. As the religious fanatics of each cult says, “Women are mere hosts”. Lovely
Its time everyone cooled off and reflected on what is means to “love your neighbor”.
GoSuck’s first meaningful vote as a justice was for an execution in Arkansas. ‘nother “pro-life” wingnut.
More terrorist activity from russia/trump. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-election-macron-cyber-idUSKBN17Q200 When will republicans demand the severance of association with the russians? When will they also demand a special prosecutor to help put an end to the terrorist actions of russia on peaceful democratic elections? Just because trump/putin wand Le Pen to win, should not give them the right to interfere with French elections. What say you NOem, Thune and Rounds?
Religious nuts and guns don’t mix well.
It’s just a matter of time, Jerry. It’s obvious to me that Trump cheated with the help of the Russians. The truth always comes out. One thing slowing down the investigation is that even less people want Hillary to be President now then the day of the election.
Same ole same ole. Started to read the 29 comments got tired of the same old Islamophobic accusatory crap. BTW good job Douglas Wiken. Going back to the Anti-Islam Lies More Harmful Than Jaber’s “Terroristic Threat”, I expected to read a letter from Hadian, not someones opinion of where he stands. ” April 9 fear fest document Hadian’s lies in an open letter in today’s Sioux Falls paper” Silly me. Try chewing this around B4 you spit out your vile rhetoric against the truth. Alex Jones Responds To Chobani / Soros Backed Lawsuit – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meFTH_W0ffo
Now ele, Alex Jones himself has said he’s just playing a character. Citing him to back up your arguments is as silly as citing Stephen Colbert’s comments on his old TV show when he played a character.
ele, what remedies do you support or propose to alleviate your fear of citizens, refugees and immigrants in America who share the Islam faith?
Bear,
It is unlikely that you will get answer to your question form ele, Wiken or happy camper.
These anti-Muslim haters don’t have any answers, they only have rhetoric to spread their irrational fears.
I suspect you are right Roger. Perhaps the question will cause some private reflection to consider the possible unintended consequences of demonizing people because of their religion. The parallels to how people were demonized in the 1930’s because of their Jewish religion is a bit disconcerting.
The link that Jerry provided seems to have been somewhat less than totally understood by Jerry himself and others. Christians in the middle ages or whenever the inquisition was have almost always since made a separation of some kind possible for scholars who did not follow the religious edicts. Islam has gone hundreds of years past that and has still not gotten back to conditions like that in its golden age. This makes it a wonderful tool for dictators and terrorists who wish to claim a god is on their side as they justify slaughtering those who see past religion as an explanation system.
Listening today to NPR and heard another story of a journalist murdered for having different perspectives, ie he supported democracy, in a dictatorship linked to Islam.
It is cheap and dumb to label anybody who disagrees with an ideology or a religion as a hater. That is a shortcut away from logic that is altogether too similar to the extremist views of the religious authoritarians. Look around the world at any country where Islam is the dominant religion and you will not want to live there. Of course, the same may be also true for South American societies and governments closely allied to the Catholic Church.
If you wish to support rampant emigration into the US by Muslems, you can provide the evidence for real benefits of that diversity. I just don’t happen to see any benefits to modern society from religions too much unchanged from their development hundreds of years ago. By endorsing such, you are in effect supporting anti-science, anti-rationality, and anti-modernity. Forget about inoculations, hearing aids, radios, TV, electricity, and modern medicine, etc. etc. etc.
I hear lots of general propaganda in favor of diversity, but very little specifics. Mostly diversity brings additional otherwise unnecessary tax increases for those who accept our social traditions and support them with our tax money.
And, while we are at it, the persecution of Jews by the Nazis was not because Jews were murderers and terrorists or because their religion was intricately intertwined with those governments.
Mr. Aiken. Are you still associated with the John Birch Society?
Douglas, here is some Nazi propaganda about Jews used to justify Germany’s anti-Jew policies. It really isn’t that much different than what people demonizing Islam say about Muslims.
http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/weltparasit.htm
And then there is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel
Speaking for myself, I am not defending Islam nor any other religion. I am objecting to demonizing and marginalizing people who have not committed any crimes and who just trying to live their lives in the best way they know how. If someone commits a crime, such as murder or terrorism, arrest him. If someone is dumb enough to follow a religion, treat him with love and kindness, or at least just leave him alone, unless he commits a crime.
I believe people already in the US have the same rights as we do or ought to have them. That said, I do not think the same constitutional freedoms need be applied to those trying to get into the US legally or illegally as long as they are not on US Soil. We are stuck with the Islamists already here, but that does not mean we must have more or need more of them. Their kind of diversity does nothing for the US. There is much good about idealism in treating all equally, but there is also a need for realism. In areas with significant Islamic populations in the US, they are setting up schools to maintain separation from US schools and culture. Science is viewed as a conflicting ideology to them. I do not see new generations of religious zealots as a good omen.
Douglas, when you say
it sounds as if you are describing Betsy Devos and the Trump administration, as well as a large segment of our non-Muslim population.
Douglas, it is always “us” and “them” isn’t it. “We” are never “them,” and “they” are never “us.”
I am reminded of something Jon Stewart said, that The US is trying to do something un-natural; it is trying to shed tribalism – trying to unite into one nation/one society the discordant tribes from all over humanity. That is the really great experiment of America.
Is it time to call the time of death, the recognition of the failure of that experiment?
SURPRISE! I’m baaaaaaak. LOL
First you have Mark Twain’s description of Jerusalem under Ottoman Muslim rule:
“Rags, wretchedness, poverty and dirt, those signs and symbols that indicate the presence of Moslem rule.”
Then you have Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and Ali A. Rizvi
An Atheist Muslim’s Perspective on the ‘Root Causes’ of Islamist Jihadism and the Politics of Islamophobia | The Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-atheist-muslims-perspective-on-the-root-causes-of-islamist-jihadism-and-the-politics-of-islamophobia_b_3159286.html
When did the bank fire you?
Not one word of Ele’s pretense to historical scholarship refutes the contention I make above, that Hadian’s lies and hasty generalizations and the fear he sows and Ele embraces like a drug do more harm to our social fabric than anything Jaber did or said on April 9.
Well, if an Atheist Muslim doesn’t rock your boat try this from a Iranian-American. Detoxing Islam
https://newswithviews.com/detoxing-islam/ and then there’s this one. Islam and useful idiots
https://newswithviews.com/islam-and-useful-idiots/
I read my link Mr. Wiken, so there ya go. What pleases me the most is this nugget from you “Of course, the same may be also true for South American societies and governments closely allied to the Catholic Church.” Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Jehovah’s Witnesses etc. all go against your grain. You and ele ought to get a room.
ele … When did you decide to become a white supremacist?
Porter when did you decide I was white?
The links ele posted are worth reviewing.
The first Islam atheist link makes some excellent points. For example, he states:
This immediately underscores the point that demonizing Muslims as a whole because of the views of a few Muslims is a mistake. Indeed, by demonizing Muslim people generally, we see unfortunate consequences such as:
I could go on, but the point of this first writer is clear – language in a book is an inadequate basis to demonize an entire community.
The problem is, however, the anti-Islam folks don’t seem to get that point. They oppose refugees and immigrants based on a book without knowing whether these folks are, in fact, “good, peaceful people who have barely read the Quran and seldom follow it except for the occasional cherry-picking and hearsay, much like the adherents of any other religion.”
The second link, “detoxing Islam” makes an identical point by comparing the religion of Islam to alcohol:
So the mistake is demonizing anyone who uses Islam or alcohol merely because some folks abuse it. Opposing refugees and immigrants merely because they are Muslim is a mistake because this cast too wide a net that catches and harms innocent people.
The last link to the “useful idiot” post makes the point that:
This makes one think – who are the “useful idiots” that inadvertently help recruit people to commit crimes for ISIS?
If a community welcomes refugees and immigrants and treats these families with respect and care, are community members “useful idiots” that inadvertently help ISIS recruit criminals to harm the community?
Or are the “useful idiots” people in a community that openly shuns and publicly spreads fear about immigrant and refugee families, opening the door for ISIS style recruiters?
ele … Does posting hate speech from fake news sites improve your low self- esteem?
Ele’s self-esteem and skin color are irrelevant. Far more relevant is Bearcreekbat’s excellent deconstruction of her drive-by linkage to demonstrate the Ele is among the useful idiots making ISIS’s job easier.
Bear, thank you for actually reading those commentaries from my “drive by linkage”. Unlike the others here who automatically come to a predetermined decision based solely on the heading or source and then continue to slay the messenger. I must say that Cory is an expert at twisting words and meanings to suit his own closed mind. Apparently, even you aren’t immune.
Thanks again and to the others:
“The eyes are useless when the mind is blind”
Read this good quote this morning: “Faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving there is no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof.” ― John Kenneth Galbraith
So what’s the truth? No reasonable person is condemning 2.2 billion people, but as Sam Harris said Islam is the motherload of bad ideas. Women who have had to live under RADICAL ISLAM and been able to get away from it are unique, credible sources that challenge the politically correct narrative. Yasmine Mohammed, raised in Canada, was married off to a terrorist. Her story is compelling but it’s nearly impossible to get anyone to consider information they don’t like, but can we agree that’s what a logical mind has to do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgTP4Pasf7A
Right, Mr. Heidelberger. My reference to ele’s skin color and self esteem was to show her what it feels like to be judged and labeled by someone she doesn’t know and who knows nothing about her, personally … just the way she judges millions of beautiful Muslim people whom she doesn’t know or know anything about, personally. Often when confronting bigots it’s useful to give them a taste of their own urine and a smell of their own stench. *Same with this Happy Camper who condemns 2.2 billion people and then calls himself unreasonable for doing it, in some attempt at a “reputation” saving sentence.
I tire of closed-minded Trumpists projecting their faults on honest liberal observers.
Camper … there are millions of women who live happily and secure in their Muslim faith and have no desire to change it. Using a few who’ve left because they didn’t is an invalid assertion that all Muslim women are in fear. Have we seen uprisings or mass movements from them? Get back to me when your hate speech has legs.
Attacking ideas is not bigotry. No judgement was made on any one person. I’m willing to look at all the information, but an ideology that gives terrorists permission to throw gays off rooftops, kill atheists, etc needs a high level of scrutiny.
Just yesterday SAUDI MAN SENTENCED TO DEATH AFTER DECLARING HIMSELF AN ATHEIST IN ONLINE VIDEO: http://www.newsweek.com/saudi-man-sentenced-death-after-declaring-himself-atheist-online-video-591473
Bigoted ideas are indeed bigotry. Show us where an “ideology that gives permission to terrorists for anything” was asserted on this blog. You, sir are in need of a high level of scrutiny as you’re judging and labeling the many by the actions of the radical few.
I’m also willing to say a high percentage of non-radical Muslims have illiberal values. Wearing a hijab is not an act of liberation. In 1970s Iran the dress was modern for men and women (shorts, bikinis), but after the revolution the Ayatollah Khamenei killed many of the liberals who had been part of the overthrow. It remains unexplainable how modern-day “liberals” refuse to call out discrimination in Islamic societies. You’re not true liberals.
Compulsory Hijab in Iran: There Is No Room for Appeasement
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leila-mouri/compulsory-hijab-in-iran-_b_1698338.html
I agree fully with happy’s comment “Attacking ideas is not bigotry.” The bigotry problem arises when people purport to attack ideas but then actually attack and harm people instead. The anti-Islam bigotry that Cory challenges are the attacks aimed at labeling and marginalizing innocent human beings, refugees and immigrants.
I may have missed a comment or two but I have not noticed anyone on this blog defending “an ideology that gives terrorists permission to throw gays off rooftops, [or] kill atheists.”
Indeed, some recent comments indicate an unwillingness to condemn all Muslims for the beliefs of a minority of Muslims. These comments suggest that some of us might be much closer than we think in our viewpoints.
Old-style Liberalism was this simple: Tolerance except against intolerance.
But modern-day liberals have a new subroutine (Multiculturalism) that takes tolerance so far, they are tolerant of intolerant ideas. And it’s an infinite loop!
We’re trying to get you back to the main program.
Cory? Hello? Waiting for your comment to bear.
If it were not for old style liberalism happy, you would still be frightened with yourself. Embrace multiculturalism as it is the vehicle that has made this country great or great again while making it a safer place for. In short, we are rubber and you are glue.
Multi-culturism is the opposite of great melting pot. Mindless support for diversity and multi-culturism is a form of blindness that generates enormous social costs and provides minimal if any benefits. Always general statements in favor of diversity, but never any specifics.
@DougWiken … Very fascinating opinion, sir. I’m personally interested in how you think. Can I get a lesson? If I was to adopt your views, I understand we’re against diversity and multi-multiculturalism (I believe that’s what you said but you spelled it like it’s a bunch of cults instead of a bunch of cultures). But, then … what culture do we consider superior? Eagerly awaiting direction on what we believe, Mr. Wiken.
I am not sure any culture is superior. I do know that the predominant US culture produces better living conditions and better science and technology of which nearly none exists in Islamic cultures.
We have a culture that has developed over several hundred years that works. We do not need to throw diversity sand into the bearings in the name of some idealistic nonsense that appears to have no data support based on the mostly ad hominem attacks that have been response here.
If you can find real particular, specific benefits of diversity, post them. In particular if you can find them for Islamic culture as it exists now, post that too.
Usually if I do actually see something presented as good, it is usually of something that is already common in our culture but may be one somebody of another culture who has excelled like millions of already US legal citizens.
USA culture IS a culture of diversity … 💯% total diversity. Give us a reason we should change away from it, now? Because you’ve become a fearful old man? Relax, pilgrim.
Embrace and accept diversity in other cultures or belief systems until the point they aren’t tolerant. Going beyond that is a perversion of being liberal.
HC … Why do you believe you have validity in analyzing and advising liberals when you’re clearly on the “other team”? *pun intended
Cause I’m still an old-school liberal, but this very strange embrace of intolerant values by people who think they are liberal is not acceptable. It’s not liberal. I’m with Bill Maher on this one. I admire him for speaking his mind against the tide.
There’s no such thing as an old school liberal. That’s a term akin to politically correct. They’re fiction. Correct is correct and liberal is liberal. If you believe you have political license to analyze liberals, I’ll take the same.
~ Subconsciously you feel worthless unless you’re able to protect someone. In order to quench that need you and ele and Wiken and Brokeman must invent an enemy for which you feel superior in the knowledge of and are able to warn the rest of us. It’s called a “straw man” argument with a subconscious “protection erection” urgency. It doesn’t mean you’re crazy. It means you have unrecognized low self-esteem and you’ve acted out based on lost capabilities or never realized capabilities, to protect someone or all of our society.
Sounds more like you’re projecting.
Hap, once again, I don’t know against whom you are arguing with this talk of liberalism perverted by unbounded tolerance, but it ain’t me.
I like the sounds of those words, but I am unconvinced. The farthest you’ve gone to criticize Islam is to say if you were religious Islam is probably not what you would choose. Give me a break.
If I ‘m projecting, I’m projecting relief that a big gust of wind came up and blew the 8″ of snow off the trees right before the branches were going to break. Whew 😎
More argument to the man from Porter. Maybe in a week or two you can find something actually valuable in Islam that exceeds western democratic values and separation of church and state.
“When I’m honored for my journalism, everyone will see one thing: My headscarf – The Washington Post”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/when-im-honored-for-my-journalism-everyone-will-see-one-thing-my-headscarf/2017/04/28/310869d2-2b76-11e7-a616-d7c8a68c1a66_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_opinion-card-f%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.4dab0d934c40
One typical post:(not me. But poster does have a point)
What STATEMENT is your PATRIARCHAL, SUPREMACIST VEIL actually making, dear young lady?
By wearing the uniform of FGM, child marriage, second-class status for women, second-class status for dirty kafirs, Jew hatred, draconian, discriminatory Sharia law, religious discrimination and persecution of Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians, the extermination of atheists, agnostics and polytheists, YOU ARE MAKING A STATEMENT THAT YOU ENDORSE THOSE THINGS.
Of course you are speaking of the FLDS Christian outfit ele.
Wiken … Religion isn’t a competition. Your desire for it to be requires a winner and a loser and is at the core of your hate. Islam is a religion of peace. Christianity is a religion of peace. It’s the fundamentalists who’ve distorted the peace not the doctrines themselves.
Happy Camper … Per capita there are more fundamentalist, born-again Christians in South Dakota wishing you harm than Muslims wishing you harm.
ele … You’re paralogizing.
Born again puzzles me as once was enough. I never was an alcoholic falling down drunk or drug addict, the only steps that I remember taking years ago that were cool, were in Rome and they were the Spanish Steps https://www.walksofitaly.com/top-attractions/spanish-steps-rome-italy and I do not gamble so why would I ever need to be born again? Also, I never saw the Pope while I was there as I was kind of busy looking for a good pizza.
BTW ele, as a kid I think I was a Zoroastrian. I used to watch that on Kelo tee vee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSFgLacSy9c. That fat sergeant Garcia and the mute guy, always impressed me.
Ele just described half the people in the current WH and white racists all over America-especially the southern states.
His name was Bernardo and the best pizza is in Naples. :)
Lansing seems incapable of making a post that is not argument to the man in one way or another or just plain outright name-calling. David Horowitz is a jackass who was on Salon and Salon Table Talk when it still existed, but posts like those from Lansing unfortunately make Horowitz’s rabid attacks on all liberals are made less totally false by such posts.
As suggested by another post, there are also unfortunately to many seeming parallels between Trump statements and those of Muslims in support of government and religion welded together in ways that support oppressive murderous dictatorships running under cover of Islam.
Jerry, you wouldn’t find real Italian “pizza” in Italy as it was an American creation. Here’s more “pizza” for some of you _______(fill in your own classification) to chew and spew out insults.
The Handmaid’s Tale, Upcoming HULU series
Laura Perrins: Islamism poses the real threat to the sisterhood – The Conservative Woman
http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/laura-perrins-islamism-poses-real-threat-sisterhood/
“It’s up to actors to portray the time they’re living in” [side note: If that were true, the “handmaids” would be donning in burqas]
“Tell, me again which extremist ideology executes gay men by throwing them off buildings?”
“What theocracy demands women must be covered and refuses to let them drive? What girls are at high risk of female genital mutilation? Are they the Mormons and Roman Catholics or hardline Lutherans?”
“No. The real threat to women’s rights comes from Islamism. But you will be waiting a long time before you read a feminist dystopian novel about the threats to American women from such a theocracy. If you did it would be immediately slammed as Islamophobic.”
Wrongamundo as usual ele, I found the holy grail of pizza right there in Rome. For sure I did. For the record, I think the real threat to American women and women in general are folks like yourself. Heartless and cold and joyless. Thank my lucky stars that I do not know you as this is as close as I could ever stand it.
We support those dictatorships Mr. Wiken, in fact, trumper is inviting them to the white house like the dude from the Philippines. Don’t forget, we have a whole lot of sons and daughters propping up those dictators you speak of. How many trillions now do you think we taxpayers have ponied up? How much American blood has been spilled? How many innocent folks in those countries have we radicalized with bombing runs?
” Wrongamundo “? jerry, is that an Italian word your picked up? LOL
“Heartless and cold and joyless” Gee.. and you don’t really know me, but you insist on analyzing me. Like you accuse me and others of doing re muslims.
ele, your arguments are getting hard to follow. Are you just warning people not to join the Islam religion, but consider Mormonism or Catholicism instead? Are you saying some Muslims, but not the vast majority, claim that the Koran requires them to commit crimes like murder or child abuse?
Once we have agreed that it makes no sense to assume 2.2 billion Muslims all think alike, the point of your comments identifying criminal behavior by some Muslims evades me. What are you trying to advocate?
Zoroastrianism. Just read about that, the religion in Iran before the Arabs conquered them and forced them to become Mulsim.
As far as Porter saying the doctrine has been distorted by the radicals and fundamentalists, most of what I’ve read is clear that ISIS is following the doctrines to the letter. They want to form a caliphate, thankfully most Muslims don’t interpret the Koran literally.
The article from Sawsan Morrar said if you put down you are a Muslim on your resume you are much less likely to get an interview. Duh, who puts down their religion, that’s screams weirdo expect no call. Put down atheist, no call either, unless that was somehow relevant to the job.
Do your own search “Ex-Muslim Women” and consider their perspective. People raised in the faith understand it personally, like we know our own upbringing.
I did a search of Ex-Muslim Women and not one of the first 20 articles was written by a valid credible source. You post hate speech from fake news sites, almost daily for no understandable reason. Thankfully most Christians don’t interpret the Bible literally, also. What’s your point? Hate makes you feel powerful in a powerless life? You need to warn people so you feel powerful in a powerless life? You need to feel more informed than normal thinking people so you can feel powerful in a powerless life? What’s your mission?
But HC you are not allowed to lie on employment applications. It is against the law. Some people might be proud to be Muslim. Some might be proud to claim to be kristian, although I’m sure I don’t know why.
ps Sebastian Dorka is out of a White House job. Apparently his PHD was phony or something.
Mike, asking your religion is an illegal question, but she said some people put Muslim on their resume. Nobody puts their religion on their resume. The act of doing so regardless of the religion would alienate.
Porter must have been triggered. The first article using google is with Sarah Haider with Ex-Muslims of North America. She feels betrayed by the left (you): “When I read a news article about how a woman’s hijab was pulled off or how a stewardess refuses to give a Muslim woman an unopened can of Coke, it’s national news. But no one covers what we’re going through, no one covers our persecution. Of course we know there’s anti-Muslim bigotry, and that’s being covered. But our struggle should be covered as well. It’s appalling that our pain isn’t worth discussing. In fact, we’re often painted as the victimizers.”
It amazes me the left, like Porter, turn their backs on Ex-Muslim women who need support and want to talk openly about their experiences, because it doesn’t fit the narrative you like I guess. They are challenging what you are so sure you know. It’s very arrogant white privileged man to think you know better than another person’s direct experiences.
http://quillette.com/2017/03/16/on-betrayal-by-the-left-talking-with-ex-muslim-sarah-haider/
Sarah Haider gets paid to preach hate to simple minded bigots like you. And it’s very lucrative. Next?
Quillette is an invalid, hate speech, fake news site, also
And you know this how? Linky Linky. How do we know Porter Lansing isn’t a paid troll. Discredit every source you don’t like white privileged man not impressed.
Is HuffPost fake news?
Why Does Everyone Want To Silence Ex-Muslims?
http://www.huffingtonpost.in/zubin-madon/silencing-dissent-youtube_b_9019408.html
bear I’m not advocating anything. I’m just trying to present both sides and leave it up to one’s own conclusion as to what the truth is. All without the baseless personal criticism and insults some of us receive.
The people on the left are so sure they are enlighted and everyone else is a bigot. Statements below from the Huffpost link:
“Liberals have consistently taken the onus of protecting Muslims from bigotry (and rightly so), often suppressing the debate on radical Islam in the process. However, there is a minority within this minority — the ex-Muslims, whose existence we seldom acknowledge. This small group of freethinkers have broken the fetters of dogma, committing the most egregious infraction in Islam – apostasy, a crime for which they face imprisonment or execution in more than 20 countries.
Between the regressive leftist hypocrisy of Jeremy Corbyn and the xenophobic exhortations of Donald Trump, ex-Muslim activists provide a lucid perspective on Islamism. Folks like Armin Navabi, Maryam Namazie, Ali Amjad Rizvi and Eiynah, articulate that it is possible to criticise religious ideologies while simultaneously denouncing bigotry against its practitioners; that human life is sacrosanct, but ideas are not. You’d think these secular warriors (non-jihad variants) would be the darlings of Western liberals, but instead, the political left treats them as pariahs, as much as their own native community does.”
So in the end the left have become the bigots.
Huff Post printed someone’s opinion. Ms. Haider posts her opinion. I can post hundreds of opinions that say horrible and untrue things about you. Does that make them valid? Ele, get yourself a safe room.
Ex-Muslims have experiences which shape what they tell us. I’ve long accepted ideologues like Porter will not change their minds, but more thinking people will look at the preponderous of evidence.
Billions more current Muslims have the exact opposite opinions of their experiences. The preponderance of evidence is heavily weighted towards my opinion. That you choose to believe ex-Muslim minority opinions is a deviant behavior on your part. It’s you who needs to explain your choices. What drives you to choose hate?
happy got your goat, Mr. Lansing
Nope, Grudzie. Haters never prevail.
No, I believe Ex-Muslims are telling the truth, but I am not extrapolating that to 2.2 billion other people which have entirely different experiences, however, the majority does not negate what we see happening because of this very small minority.
There’s no doubt and there’s no argument from me that a tiny minority of radical fundamentalist religious zealots are a significant problem all around the world. You’re using them to denigrate an entire religion and I’m standing up to your hate speech.
But that very small minority, in places like Iran, Syria, Pakistan, has forced women to cover themselves, throws gays off rooftops, cuts heads off atheists, so don’t discount the very small minority.
I’m here to denigrate all religions, but Islam is the most stupid of the big three.
Don’t inflate that very small minority to develop hatred among the uneducated about the size of the problem. Do you remember how many black and gay people were lynched in USA? The vast percentage of Muslim women would continue to “cover up” even if the rule was changed. Only the radical fundamentalists cut the heads off athiests. Billions of Muslims consider that to be atrocious. Remember the Mỹ Lai Massacre; the Vietnam War mass killing of between 347 and 504 unarmed civilians? Remember the Trail of Tears where thousands of Native Americans were marched to death? You pick and choose what offends you, randomly. What’s your real motivation?
You say the vast majority of Muslim women would continue to subjugate themselves if they were given equal rights? Give me a break, that doesn’t hold water. Iran is the example, not that the Shah was someone to admire, but the revolution set off a fundamentalist movement in the Middle East. Women were appreciating their freedoms.
I am not trying to inflame hatred of what you call the uneducated, but trying to draw attention to more of what is actual truth. I will see Ex-Muslims who have lived the life as more credible sources before I believe Porter Lansing from Abderdeen, SD.
You will continue to hate. I will continue to love. We’ll see who lasts longer. LWIY (last word is your’s)
Dislike ignorance embrace truth.
Calling blind ignorant advocacy as love and rational explication of problems with a particular religion/ideology hate is a perversion of logic and also of love and hate for that matter.
And problems with stoning and beheading are not just a part of small groups of religious extremists, the Saudi Arabian government is part of that for adultery, gay advocacy, and atheism.
I know you plenty good ele, you are just one of many un American’s that continue to show their arse’s. When America was great, we offered hope to those we displaced. Good example is the Hungarian revolt. We Americans did whatever we could to help assimilate the refugees as we always did. Now, America has destroyed the Mid East for its oil and if the refugees happen to go back to their colonial roots, we do little if anything to help. The problems in the Mid East have your name printed all over them ele. You own the Muslim refugee problem ele and yours, so love your neighbor and warm your cold cold heart with your faux evangelicalism.
More undeclared war still continues with American casualties https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Releases/News-Release-View/Article/1166066/dod-identifies-army-casualties/ More dead and wounded coming home from Muslim places we have decided we now own while we continue to displace them into refugees.