Police and National Guard troops cleared Dakota Access pipeline protestors yesterday from a camp illegally occupying land owned by the pipeline company. Authorities arrested 117 protestors, some of whom torched construction equipment and cars and one of whom fired a pistol at police. These protestors had already sacrificed their legal rights by trespassing; their acts of violence surrendered their claim to moral high ground.
Protestors can’t complain about being arrested for illegal action. If a crowd comes and sits in my yard and I don’t want them there, I have no problem with law enforcement evicting them.
That said, at least Dakota Access is getting a taste of their own medicine. The pipeline company clearly doesn’t like it when people come and sit on their land without the owner’s consent. I’d like to think that occupation will help them understand how farmers like Charlie Johnson and other farmers along the pipeline route feel about Dakota Access using the threat of eminent domain to force their way onto land where they aren’t welcome. But cops in war gear will never hit Dakota Access honchos with pepper spray and bean bags.
Dakota Access protestors should stay off private property and restrict their pipeline resistance to federal lands. After all, they now have the precedent of the acquittal of Ammon Bundy and his co-conspirators who occupied the federal Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon for six weeks earlier this year. Federal jurors affirmed the defense argument that Bundy and his armed anti-government troublemakers were simply exercising their First Amendment rights when they occupied the wildlife refuge and wrecked government property.
Of course, Bundy and his pals were a little whiter than the Dakota Access protestors….
p.s.: After our great on-air conversation about the youth minimum wage, other ballot measures, blog traffic, and our desire for an informed democracy, Greg Belfrage and I discussed the Dakota Access protests for a quick Daily Dose podcast:
Hopefully a a blizzzard and 25 below wind chills show up soon to chase these protesters back to where they come from.
Time for law enforcement to get rid of this circus. Most are not from ND and many are paid professional protesters. These protesters need to pay for the extra law enforcement.
That is rilly right wing kristian of you, Sam@.
Lose a close relative at Greasy Grass, did you?
Over 90% are from out of state. 100% of the violent protesters who have been arrested for violent offenses are from out of state. There is just so much wrong with how the tribe went about this project and they don’t have much to stand on which is back by judicial rulings. If you aren’t willing to participate in our gov’t system when the project is being approved, don’t expect to use that same system to get your way after the fact.
Protesters have jumped the shark.
Private land. What kind of legal scrubbing took place years back that free and clear Titles on Treaty land were obtainable for private land purchase? This is not about oil any more than Gandhi’s march and protest was about salt. This showdown has been brooding for decades and can be seen as a Wounded Knee III in the making. Heard a very reasonable speech yesterday by the Morton County Sheriff saying they will leave the main camp alone but the protesters have to back off pipeline land. Natives are saying: nope, it’s a line in the sand for them. Pipeline company needs to wake up to the far greater issues that are coming to a head here and let them camp this winter. Also heard good comments from tribal leaders repudiating vandalism and violence. They have a tough job as well to lead the protest with all kind of solidarians showing up from all over the US and world. We’ve seen proof the Hillary camp pays for violence at Trump rallies. Let’s hope the pipeline companies don’t stoop to that level so this ends quicker as they’d like. The only quick ending here is a total smack down by law enforcement. That may end an immediate problem but it creates bigger more lasting ones. The militarisation is outrageous. Right now only one side has guns and the whole world out here sees natives praying on land that was legally theirs and armoured vehicles and troops ready to pounce with a simple provocation. PS – If solidarian isn’t a word it should be. Consider me one. I’ve made it known to my friends in the Highway Patrol and the Governors office that I’d love to see SD law enforcement sit this one out so we don’t set racial relations back forty years. Maybe it’s too late for that as Crow Creek has already rescinded their partnership with the state and other tribes will follow suit. It looks like South Dakota State Government is choosing the interests of a greedy pipeline company over the native population in the state. It’s a choice between peace and a pipeline, between peace and profits.
Mr Hickey, two protesters opened fire yesterday striking one of the security members and almost wounding a deputy. The militarization is for everyone’s safety because they would end up killing an officer if they came in unprepared. The protesters are getting the response they want and they will keep pushing the envelope until they instigate the outcome they want. They want dead protesters so they can act like they were all peaceful and the overbearing gov’t is doing this to put them in their place. The whole world see natives praying because that is the narrative they want to push. It’s the same reason why Democracy Now put out an edited video showing people being attacked by dogs while protesters retreated. What they didn’t leave in the video is the protesters attacking the security line of private property and hitting the dogs with stick and rocks. They reported an image of a dog dripping with blood from his mouth claiming it was a protesters blood. It was the dog’s own blood after being hit by a protester who attacked. They need to round them up and throw them in jail for a min 30 days for the non-compliant protesters. Let the peaceful ones stay and do their thing.
If only they had chosen to go with an armed occupation of a government facility, then they would know – like the Bundys in Oregon – that they were OK legally.
I do not agree with armed takeovers but that seems to be the legal way to do things now in our America. If you are armed and actually threaten to take lives, you show the world that there really is really not much of rule of law left here. If you blatantly steal millions of dollars from taxpayers through a criminal scheme such as the EB5, you get elected as a United States Senator and your second gets to occupy the governors chair you just vacated. The attorney general, on whose watch it all happened on, gets a chance to grab the brass ring of the governor’s chair that instigated the whole thing to begin with and on it goes.
Indians are not protesting the theft of taxpayer money though, they are protesting what is in all of our best interests, clean water. The federal government promised dialogue with the Indians regarding their concerns and told the trespassers to stop with the process that started the confrontation in the first place. The pipeline people disregarded that once again and started to antagonize the protesters by stockpiling the pipe on the old burial ground site that they already had desecrated. Wherever the claim is on where the protesters have come from, they are protesting a right that was handed down in treaty (contract) form for the protection of water and soil in exchange for the very land the white man now claims is being trespassed on. A breach of contract by the Indians? A breach of contract by the Whites? The federal government is doing what? We see in Oregon that the federal government cannot prosecute their own when it comes to the occupying of taxpayer owned land. We see our own elected government officials doing nothing to address what should be a major crisis regarding the drinking water to most of us in South Dakota. The subject just does not come up like the pipelines are safe and do not and will not leak. We all should thank the Indians for having the testicles to defend all of our rights to clean drinking water. We should thank them for having the courage to protest and after the dogs had been released on them, to defend themselves. We all should ask ourselves this, how in the hell did Chris Nelson do this? Why did Chris Nelson do it and to what degree is he being taken care of for this clear act of stupidity? In order to look the other way, you have to have a reason.
Armed protest is the wave of the future-when whitey wingnuts does it.
Aren’t Indians American citizens and don’t they have 2nd amendment rights to have weapons?
I don’t get where burning tires and releasing toxins into the environment or consuming gasoline in the process of driving back and forth to a pipeline protest move the ball forward.
I get it…the theory is that if one starves everybody of gasoline then one will have to do something else. But ultimately I think the better long term solution is make pipelines safer while supporting a better alternative.
The lesson of natural gas in the power industry is that if presented with another choice that is feasible and affordable, if not better, people will make the switch. That hasn’t happened yet in transportation. We’re not ready to produce and store the amount of energy necessary to power electric or hydrogen cars (i.e. on top of what we generate today), or to produce/sell all the electric or hydrogen vehicles that are needed.
Robert, I think your economic impact analysis of oil leaves out the cost to the US from the constant intervention in the Middle East. If those countries did not have oil, we would ignore their issues (as we do most of the world’s). How about maintaining the Navy to ensure the safe shipping lanes of our oil? Although these American pipelines and sources of oil seem to reduce the dependence on foreign oil, they perpetuate the whole oil industry and the very real geo-political entrapments that go along with that oil dependence.
To those who disagree. Are you saying it is ok ok to comity attempt murder of a law enforcement official? These people are not protestors. They are violent thugs.
It is time for them to follow the law or be removed with what ever force is needed.
I am is favor of peaceful protest, however these people are breaking the law.
No, Sam2, obviously, it is not o.k. to attempt murder.
Where do Sam@ and Daniel get the exact percentage points about the numberof out of state protestors, please provide a link.
And Daniel please provide the full video about the dogs being attacked.
Yes, many of the protestors are from out of state and are from around the world. This is a good thing.
In my lifetime, I have never seen such unity among tribal nations from around the country. Many tribes that can’t be here are sending financial support to the camp, others tribes are contributing to the legal defense fund.
On any given day at camp, you will find celebrities and other well known players.
The Indians and all the non-Indian supporters all have a single message:
This pipeline will likely leak at some stage and poison all our drinking waters, not just Indian drinking water, but yours too.
As I understand it, there are 5 pipelines that cross South Dakota, if there are that many, let the Canadian hucksters use those.
Cory,
Greg call DFP Dakota Free Access, which is also fitting.
@Sam has adopted the Rev. Pat Robertson to settle the occupation by calling for a blizzard and sub-zero weather. In fairness Sam, I call for another Atlas type blizzard to bury South Dakota. See how ridiculous that sounds Sam?
Here’s one: https://www.facebook.com/MortonCountySD/photos/a.162536147432065.1073741828.140989796253367/344349309250747/?type=3&theater
The unedited video link I had was pulled and can’t seem to find a new one now. The Democracy Now video is a complete farce with how it is edited. The video I saw is also the reason why there will be no charges against security. They stayed on private land in a line and you see protesters run up with 6 ft poles and knock the dogs on the head. They want to get to the machinery and they took a chance and got bit. It’s no different than climbing a wall to a junk yard and meeting your fate in the hands of a mean dog.
What all of you are failing to understand that this is wanted by the citizens of ND by a large majority. The two other tribes support it as well, including one tribe that is building the largest refinery in ND. North Dakotans are sick of watching their family members die on overcrowded roads. Sick of watching trucks spilling daily. Sick of watching entire towns being evacuated when trains derail and send 500ft plumes of fire in the air. This oil is better in a pipe than in rail or truck.
The natives had their chance but they skipped 3 years of meetings. The court ruled against them because the Army corp had proof of all correspondence that went un-returned. Why should the gov’t listen now when they weren’t willing to be involved in the planning? This is about money, nothing else.
There goes Hickey again – showing off his Clinton derangement syndrome in a thread unrelated to either Clinton. For the record Hickey, the only violence at Trump rallies involves Trump supporters assaulting non-violent protesters with Trump’s encouragement.
Back to the topic of the thread. These protesters are trespassing on private land. Some of them have guns and are using them. Authorities would be justified in hauling them off to jail (all of them – peaceful and militant alike), but authorities have acted with measured restraint toward the protesters.
And no, Daniel Buresh. The dog in the video with blood in its mouth was not a victim of the protester riding the horse whose leg it bit. Those rent-a-cops turned their dogs loose on the crowd of trespassing protesters who fought back with sticks.
Let’s not make the protesters into saints or the rent-a-cops and their vicious dogs into victims. In this country crisscrossed by many oil pipelines, may the rule of law prevail over both anarchy and vigilante justice.
O,
If a better alternative were in place and ready to go, why would we take in oil from elsewhere? In my opinion, a positive agenda in support of the alternatives will work better long term than a negative agenda.
Unfortunately, if we stop the use of oil altogether today, then there won’t be much economic activity at all. More than 80% of our energy still comes from fossil fuels. Good luck paying for social programs when that happens. So there needs to be a managed transition.
I would say that ending the use of oil would end one set of geopolitical entrapments, and trade them for another potential set of geopolitical entrapments. For example, if you want more wind energy and energy storage, more than 90% of the rare earth metals that are necessary come from China.
“For the record Hickey, the only violence at Trump rallies involves Trump supporters assaulting non-violent protesters with Trump’s encouragement.”
You mean trump supporters being assaulted by anti-trump people? The left has a higher incidence of violence this election.
“And no, Daniel Buresh. The dog in the video with blood in its mouth was not a victim of the protester riding the horse whose leg it bit. Those rent-a-cops turned their dogs loose on the crowd of trespassing protesters who fought back with sticks.”
BS…They were hitting the dogs with stick while still leashed by their handlers as they stood in a line. The law agrees with the video they viewed as well.
Mr. McTaggert,
Your earlier comment about burning tires and the use of fossil fuels to get back and forth from the camp is disappointing.
One of the greatest assaults on Native Americans decades back was the introduction of fossil fuels. I was raised on the Pine Ridge Reservation back to the 1950’s and 1960’s when tribal people resisted this intrusion, they still traveled by wagon and horseback to get to get to town.
With time Natives were forced to adopt to fossil fuels to make their lives better. They should not be condemned for traveling to the camp by vehicle, Natives are simply doing what they were taught.
I’m disappointed in your comment, you are usually much more reasonable and thoughtful.
The comment about Natives using fossil fuels to get to the protests belongs more in the comment section of the redneck paper the Rapid City Journal
How about burning equipment, two national guard dump trucks, and numerous other vehicles? How about starting a large fire on a publicly funded bridge? Millions of dollars in damage in a single day.
For the record, I did not say Natives were using fossil fuels. Here is the direct quote:
“I don’t get where burning tires and releasing toxins into the environment or consuming gasoline in the process of driving back and forth to a pipeline protest move the ball forward. ”
Apparently there are a lot of protesters from outside the area. I always see a lot of vehicles in the pictures from the protests. Just disappointed in the use of fossil fuels in order to protest fossil fuels.
Why not support Native Americans in making their communities energy-independent with alternative energy? What is wrong with that?
Them there dogs was running into the crowd and biting people and attacking horses. I would grab a lath and fight back if I was attacked by vicious dogs and vicious handlers. There was a place later in the video where the dogs were in a line and then they rushed the crowd and protectors fought back.
“Them there dogs was running into the crowd and biting people and attacking horses. I would grab a lath and fight back if I was attacked by vicious dogs and vicious handlers. There was a place later in the video where the dogs were in a line and then they rushed the crowd and protectors fought back.”
All on private land after their line was breached. Completely legal. If you want to try taking over private land, they have every right to use force to remove you.
Rorschach – both wikileaks and the Veritas videos both document Clinton hiring violence for Trump rallies. http://www.dailywire.com/news/10018/undercover-videos-allegedly-expose-dnc-hillary-amanda-prestigiacomo
I don’t want to get us off topic but just wanted to drop that in because it seems you are limited in your sources for news.
Why not support Native Americans in making their communities energy-independent with alternative energy? What is wrong with that?
What about the water, Doc? These “protectors” are there to protect their water supply and everyone else’s water supply.
And speaking of law breaking, DAPL did not have necessary permits to do much of their digging. Why weren’t they arrested and pepper sprayed and attacked by dogs? They also lied when they claimed that area had been surveyed for historical sites and artifacts. The state says they did not have time to survey the property before the bulldozers went to work.
Robert, I absolutely agree that any transition to alternatives ought to be peaceful.
Maybe it’s my bias, but I see protests like this one as reminders of the high price of oil. As an energy source, it has “costs” far beyond the price tag at the pump.
I am deeply troubled that violence against corporate interests seems to be rejected bore quickly than violent protests against the government or individuals. I reject violence. I do not like how other’s rejection of violence seems so absolute here and is couched with ” . . . but they do have a point” when the violence is against the government or individuals. Have property rights and the right to corporate wealth really elevated to the ultimate right in the US?
“Why weren’t they arrested and pepper sprayed and attacked by dogs?”
Probably because they address their issue in a respectful manner and not through force.
“They also lied when they claimed that area had been surveyed for historical sites and artifacts. The state says they did not have time to survey the property before the bulldozers went to work.”
The judicial ruling prove you wrong.
If we are going to use pipelines, then environmental monitoring, proper maintenance, and better materials/procedures should all be supported for clean water. Shipping by rail or truck would be worse. Having the viable alternative in place would be better.
They want more of this where 47 people lose their lives because they don’t want Bakken oil in a pipeline.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaster
They want more scenes like this one in Casselton ND: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNR7XxhF7W0&ab_channel=Millys
Still want to send bakken oil down the rail?
O,
I agree with you that there are costs that should be placed on the overall holistic spreadsheet, but are not. They get avoided and left for someone else to pay.
Would anyone opposed to the pipeline be willing to be trained to monitor the pipeline if the corporate interests paid for said training and future monitoring duties?
True, making a safer pipeline means the pipeline is still there. But bringing in a different perspective may catch some problems before they occur.
The pipeline is wanted by all of North Dakota, fine, then expand the oil refinery in Dickinson to process the Bakken so it can be safely shipped by rail. Since the strengthening of the tanker cars, I seem to not be hearing about those fires that plagued the system early on when the shipments were not handled properly. BTW, if this thing is so safe, why did they move it from north of Bismark’s water supply? Could that be because all of North Dakota knows by now that they have had damned near more oil leaks than people.
Stop the madness, stop the DAPL and stop being such a bunch of dummies when it comes to protecting the basic right of clean water.
DB -they buy what they want. That includes politicians and probably the redneck sheriff of Nottingham County, North Dakota.
Only 90% of the arrested protectors were from out of state. Your link sez so. The dogs got off lucky. They should have been euthanized for attacking civilians and horses after crossing the boundary.
Massive transition away from fossil fuels are essential to our continued survival. These pipelines are exposing the interconnected nature of US Domestic Policy and US Foreign Policy, all at the behest of these massive fossil fuel corporations.
http://www.ecowatch.com/syria-another-pipeline-war-1882180532.html
How many US soldiers died in Desert Storm?
Resulting in 148 U.S. battle deaths, and 145 nonbattle deaths, including 15 women. Wounded in action: 467. Iraqi casualties.
Of Iraq’s 545,000 troops in the Kuwait theater of operations, an estimated 100,000 were killed, and.
That’s right, Daniel. All these people died the first time to protect our oil under Iraqi sands that Dumbass George the !st said it was hunky dory if Saddam attacked Kuwait. That is so many more than died in one derailment.
Hickey-O’Keefe’s alleged Dem operative was working for Breitbart at the time these edited videos were made.
“I don’t want to get us off topic[.]” Steve Hickey
You are trying your damnedest to get us off topic.
Don’t hop down Hickey’s rabbit trail – Mike from iowa.
C’mon, Hickey. You’re trying to convince people of another of your outlandish claims using a piece from The Daily Wire? (The Daily Wire is a highly biased politically conservative American opinion website founded in 2015 by conservative political commentator Ben Shapiro, who currently serves as Editor-in-chief.) The article claims to have “undercover video” which isn’t subject to professional scrutiny and then uses the term “allegedly” in it’s title. Try again but use some credible sources next time/
“BTW, if this thing is so safe, why did they move it from north of Bismark’s water supply? Could that be because all of North Dakota knows by now that they have had damned near more oil leaks than people.”
Bismarck didn’t want it there. There reason is irrelevant. Maybe the natives could take a lesson and see that’s how concerns are resolved when you participate in the planning phases.
Porter, go watch the videos online from the producer himself. Not to mention, the guys in the videos have already resigned. I could care less about that, because actions speak louder than words and the left has already committed more acts of violence against innocent bystanders at Trump rallies. That is what happens when you justify it in their small minds when you dehumanize them by comparing them to hitler and calling them deplorables. That’s all the justification your minions need to get them to be violent.
Let’s just stop oil production now and see how many people die in the first year of starvation. I’m sure that will be fun to watch.
There is the land use issue and the environmental risk issue. Now you all will have to help me on this one, but I’s sure I remember a story about requiring the owners of these pipelines (who say they are PERFECTLY safe) to post bonds against the potential clean up costs of leaks. I seem to remember that this was rejected out of hand by the companies. Would requirements of bond make the line less objectionable? Is any bond required now?
No worries though, president Clinton will push the pipeline through. Glad someone on the left has some sense left in them.
Daniel, glass houses! Are you seriously making the argument that “the left” promotes and creates more violence through their rhetoric than “the right” does? “Right” rhetoric has never made the Hitler analogy to Obama or Clinton or others on the “left.” “Second amendment remedies” doesn’t stir the “right” toward violence? The personal denigration of the opposing candidate creates a specific and unique tenor if disrespect, “Crooked” is the title I have heard Trump consistently use for his opponent – not “Secretary” or “Senator.” That is not at its root dehumanizing?
Whether we argue who creates more rhetoric or not, the facts prove the left has been more violent this election season.
Daniel, “facts?” I don’t think that word means what you think it means.
Prove me wrong. I can show you an entire list of offenses of anti-trump people going after trump supporters. Want to get into the mob mentality?…just look at BLM and these protesters here. How about vandalism?….left has that one covered as well.
Daniel, your claim is that the left is worse than the right. YOU have to prove that. It is objectively wrong to make a claim and say it is true until it is disproven. I agree that in the horrendous climate of hatred there are examples of conduct from some on the left that I abhor, but that in no way shows that the left is WORSE. Show the left has done MORE. Show the FACTS.
I get a whole lot of posts and news stories on facebook about what is happening on the Cannonball. I missed the one about a protestor firing a handgun at a police officer. However I did see pictures of BIA officers chasing a young man carrying an AR15 into the water and arresting him. Different people will believe different stories. Yesterday a major news outlet had a story that protestors had burned a bridge on Hwy 1806. Within thirty minutes I saw a video where tires were burning north of the 1806 CONCRETE bridge.
I have reservations about whether it was the right about settling on the DAPL ranch. The settlers reasoning is that they are occupying land promised to them in the 1851 Ft. Laramie treaty. Is there a time limit to appeal the injustice of broken treaties?
I am on my way to the camps/Bismarck. I have been invited to speak at a rally on Saturday that will be held at the ND Capitol. The rally’s theme is unity and prayer. The rally is hosted by Dakota Resource Council, Dakota Rural Action’s sister organization. The Standing Rock people have always fought this fight with prayer. Sheriff Kirschmeir and Gov Dalrymple are the ones who are turning it into an armed confrontation.
Thought you had been kidnapped again. Glad you escaped. I can’t fundraise worth a dang. :)
@Paul S, you mean corporate media is actually in ND covering this story themselves? Astonishing!
mike from Iowa, this time it be bail money that I may need help on.
Leo, major news outlets are now covering it because there is violence involved although it is the militarized law enforcement committing the violence.
Beck’s former colleague at Fox News, the aforementioned Sean Hannity, also played a part in organizing the town hall disruptions. According to the Times, Hannity’s website offered tips on how to “Become a part of the mob!” and “Attend an ObamaCare Townhall near you!”
Conservative pundits not only excused but actively encourage these protesters in 2009. Six-and-a-half years later, however, when Trump — the bronzed manifestation of the Tea Party’s compounding white anger — is finally shut the hell up, the protesters responsible are thuggish First Amendment deniers.
That was from Salon. But HRC did it, too.
Paul, that major news outlets are now covering it means that it can no longer be ignored. The protesters have gotten through to their thick heads, but only after arrests and ill-treatment of peaceful protesters and journalists – many have suffered. What will be the spin? National Security? Civil Rights? Law and Order? Corporate Greed? or Clean Water, Healthy Ecosystems and Treaty Rights?
Cory’s “major burr” is eminent domain taken by a private corporation against South Dakota law. My major burr is clean water and a healthy environment for the future, you know, the basics of life! I hope we all win. ;)
HRC’s statement on DAPL includes the words “the broadest public interest” which, in my mind, means clean water for 18 million people. I wonder what it means in HERS. Bill McKibben did not think that was very clear.
Leo, I agree. Dakota Access bought the Cannonball Ranch from the Meyer family so that they can prevent tribal people from doing a proper cultural resource survey. Allowing them to bulldoze wherever they damn well please, including across burial sites. What is the proper response for people when someone is dozing your ancestor’s graves?
Paul, these Dalrymple goons are being watched and witnessed the whole world over by people who value justice. Gov. Dalrymple is only watching his portfolio investments which include Energy Transfer Partners. To answer your question: outrage!
Donnie Drumpf owns stock in Energy Transfer and Conoco, too if I remember right. (not earth shattering amounts, but…)
Sherriff Kirchmeir comes across as a person who does not like Native Americans. I noticed this earlier. He didn’t even seem nice.
@mfi, Trump does have investment interests in DAPL, and we must oppose him on this. I do not hear either Presidential candidate, nor our President Obama, making any strong statements condemning the Dakota Access Pipeline, nor the militarized police situation at Standing Rock. Just another reason to conjure the notion that we already have a One Party System and Rule. They’ll divide and conquer us on 2nd Amendment and Abortion rights all while poisoning our water and our food. Sounds like a win for them! Don’t know about you, but I am tired of the arrogance of the coastal elites who merely think of us as “Fly Over Country”!
Catch the latest pillory Hillary swillery?
It seems the world has turned upside down as I am finding more and more common ground with Steve Hickey these days (aside from the Clinton-Trump stuff, which I’ll refrain from commenting on).
I’ve stayed at Oceti Sakowin Camp (hereafter referred to as the main camp) three times now–in late August for a few days, and then twice this month for nearly week-long stretches. I left late morning Thursday–the day of the front line camp raid. Of course we all knew that raid was coming. Those who decided on the strategy of erecting a new camp directly in the path of construction and in Morton County’s jurisdiction understood fully the implications of that action.
My concern with that strategy was mainly that, early in the week, everyone in the main camp was being encouraged to move up there, and many supplies and much infrastructure moved as well, which may mean they’ll be seized/destroyed and therefore not available to help people at the main camp make it through the winter. Another, greater concern is whether everyone who moved up there was fully cognizant of what they were opening themselves up to–especially parents with young children who may face child endangerment charges (and potentially lose custody) if they did not relocate before the raid.
That said, the pipeline fight is serious, and people are serious about stopping it. The tactics do have to be bold in order for media and the world to pay attention–especially due to the fact that the fight is led by indigenous people in rural North Dakota.
Are water protectors armed? Well, there are over a thousand people up there by recent estimates, and it’s hard to make sure that not one person in a thousand is stupid enough to bring a gun to a spiritual fight. It’s understood there that those who do so (and/or talk about doing so) are either infiltrators trying to break down the peaceful/prayerful narrative to the benefit of the pipeline company, or they’re so blinded by white privilege that they don’t understand that in reality, the 2nd Amendment doesn’t apply to people of color, and there are plenty of white folks in North Dakota who are itching for an excuse to kill a bunch Indians (and get away with it, of course).
I may question some of the tactics (mostly out of concern for full awareness and safety), but I absolutely stand with Standing Rock in this fight. And I recommend those backseat drivers and sideline analyzers to go there and stay for a week–not as a media personality, but as a cook in the kitchen, a fire tender, a person who is humble in service to community. I wholeheartedly encourage you to try that if you want to more fully understand what’s going on there.
The FBI director couldn’t catch a cold. But is completely swooning over the dick pics that the Weiner man has sent out. We are indeed a country that is so sexually deprived, we forget our very lives dependency on clean water, affordable healthcare and social security to be able to prattle about sex pictures that have nothing to do with Clinton.
Comey is just like Putin in the fact that he is trying to elect Trump. Two good ol’ boy republican advocates.
@Paul, you may appreciate the coverage of Jordan Chariton of TYT provides about Standing Rock and his coverage of the mainstream media’s coverage of Standing Rock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCwIvRDRSVo
My feeling about this is that you do what you have to do. If you protest on private land, you have to understand you are subjecting yourself to possible arrest. If the civil rights movement didn’t conduct sit-ins in diners, there wouldn’t have been any reason for civil rights legislation.
Although the protesters would like to stop DAPL, what may actually come of this is some fairness and reasonableness regarding eminent domain and environmental laws, which have been made far too lenient in the case of pipelines, fracking, etc. Remember when South Dakotans were protesting the ETSI coal slurry pipeline? Well, laws since then have been gutted, and stopping ETSI would have been impossible under today’s deregulated environment. Time for much, much more regulation.
People who illegally protest on private land, threaten public safety, block public roads and steal and destroy private property need to have the army come in there and start cracking skulls. Period.
So, in essence, I’m saying that laws have got to change before there is any peace. The tribes are leading the way on what needs to happen. We had a pipeline sited to the east of Madison, WI, and we should have been out there obstructing it, rather than writing letters that fell on deaf ears.
A government that takes away the right to stop or change bad development in your neighborhood is an evil institution, and needs to change by any means necessary.
Right on, Donald Pay. If we didn’t take to the streets and intimidate cops and Republicans, Vietnam would have killed thousands more.
~ The pipeline is wrong to desecrate ancient Indian burial grounds. Any Indian that doesn’t protest, stand up and do whatever is necessary attempting to stop it is also wrong … bullheaded German Americans be damned.
Criminals who trespass and destroy private property need to be bonked on the head and put in jail, by any means necessary.
This is Native Land – Please honor the 1851 Fort Laramie Treaty and stop trying to call this private land and trespassing by Native Americans. We nonnatives are the trespassers, and genocidal maniacs. Own your history. Make things right.
Grudz, do you know why there are more Americans who think like libbys then think like you … so many more that your side may never again see the White House? Because you’re dead wrong and people with a heart won’t ever agree with you.
Follow the laws, Mr. Lansing. Give back your land to the Indians, then you can preach.
Mr. Grudznick is correct and should start bonking himself on the head for violating the 1851 Fort Laramie Treaty “People who illegally protest on private land, threaten public safety, block public roads and steal and destroy private property need to have the army come in there and start cracking skulls. Period” I have a bat that you may borrow sir, in the meantime, use what means you have at hand. Let the bonking commence.
I can preach any damn time I choose. When the land is returned mine will be gifted back to me.
Our argument should be in support for those who have put it all on the line to protect all of our water. This is not complicated unless you bring in the ugliness of race. Then the argument becomes convoluted and a racial issue rather than a survival issue. We know the pipeline will leak, we know that as it has been proven countless times. As recent as a couple of months ago, there was a major leak by Freeman, South Dakota http://time.com/4292856/south-dakota-oil-spill/ as noted in the article, the Dakotas are “low consequence” in accordance to how the great protectors of our lands view us here. They give us second rate pipe from a third world prospective and tell us to enjoy our crap sandwich that they have served us with the delight of our congressional officials who probably pocketed some spoils to go along with the charade.
Indians can read and do exactly that, when Indians see this kind of reporting, they do what all South Dakotan’s should do and be doing, demanding a halt to this crap and a reckoning for Chris Nelson and those that put our water and our way of life, in jeopardy,
“The Democratic platform approved by Hillary Clinton’s campaign, … says there will be no federal approval for any project that “significantly exacerbates” global warming.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/29/opinion/why-dakota-is-the-new-keystone.html?_r=0
Excellent, Jerry. Grudz and many in SoDak are very adept at judging Indians by how the Dakota majority of bullheaded German Americans think but very, very weak at judging Indians by how Indians think.
Leo … that bring up something that needs to come to light. President Obama is much more timid then the Clintons when it comes to change. This won’t be like a first term for her. It will be like a third term, extended Presidency for the Clintons. That’s a big reason the Republicans are so afraid of her. She’s more apt to say eff the protocol, this needs to be done and I’m going to get it done and I’ll deal with it, later. Clintons push the envelope and get more accomplished then most when they’re in office but they never break the law. Things we need done will get done, you can count on more of that in the next eight.
Bernie says “Prez Obama, get off your arse and do something (more or less)” http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-calls-on-president-to-intervene-in-dakota-access-pipeline-dispute Democrats are concerned and rightly so, this is an affront to all that is democratic in this country. We all have a fundamental right to clean drinking water and we all have the fundamental rights for due process. It is time we demand more and expect more from our government. Vote Democratic to rid ourselves of the anvils of do nothing but collect payoff republicans. The gravy train of republican corruption must end for the sake of the country.
All South Dakota people, this is your water that is being protected. This is your water that you drink each day, you bathe in, you cook in, you irrigate your crops with. This is your water, the lifeblood of us all. See how the protectors are being mauled, https://theintercept.com/2016/10/25/video-police-viciously-attacked-peaceful-protestors-at-the-dakota-access-pipeline/ The defenders do not do this for money, they do this to protect all of our rights to life.
Porter, I appreciate your optimism about a Clinton presidency; however, even that is not a sure thing at this point. I can confidently predict what Trump would do about Dakota Access Pipeline and the Standing Rock Sioux Nation. Let us not forget how he tried to evict the reluctant, elderly lady homeowner to build a parking lot for his casino. We all know he doesn’t care for people. For these reasons, President Obama must act decisively NOW to terminate this pipeline!
Believe it, Leo. All negatvity gets us is left behind … and God knows there’s more negativity and getting left behind in SDak then in any liberal state. e.g. Medicaid expansion
ps … Obama did shut it down. Unless they can figure a way around that big river without crossing federal land.
Enough out of me for a few hours. But, if anyone in District 3 is reading this and hasn’t made a choice for State Senator don’t you believe the misinformation that candidate Heidelberger is a liberal sycophant and toes the party line. Just read his post here on the Indian occupation and you’ll see that he thinks more about and has more middle of the road, mainstream, common SoDak woman and man opinions then most of us. He’ll be a valuable addition to the lob-sided congress that’s running selfishly through Pierre every term but he won’t be a patsy to the Democratic Party.
Yes Mr. Lansing, Obama did shut it down, and no, he did not. He did not shut down the desecration of burial sites meant to inflame passions with Indians, nor did he shut down the building process. What should have happened was a complete moratorium of building until all could be sorted out. We taxpayers are going to have to pay the oil baron for the continued work and for the restoration that needs to follow. Historical sites and honor sites on lands will never be brought back to the promises made decades ago when the land was taken for the dams and when the treaties were negotiated upon. That is now lost on us of “low consequence”. The voting both can change that “low consequence” consensus given to us by the elites. Nelson needs to move to Oklahoma where he can find the love he needs from the oil baron with whom he is so smitten and take the rest of the flunkies in the PUC with him.
You’re exactly, positively right, Jerry Thank you for your dedication.
Grudz likes to think the protesters are the ones threatening private property or steal and destroy it and need to be bonked on the head. I look at it in the opposite way. Yeah, maybe we need to bonk someone in the head, but it ain’t the peaceful protesters. They are the heros in this story. The cops are the hired guns, but the real villains are the pipeline companies. They need a little billy club therapy, don’t you think, Grudz?
The protesters peaceful camp was blocking the very real threats of the pipeline to destroy private property and the public waters of the United States. It’s time the folks who poison our waters got a little thumping, don’t you think, Grudz? Why haven’t any of the corporate heads been arrested for destruction of private and public resources from the multitudinous spills from pipelines? Why doesn’t this daily poisoning of people and public and private property warrant arrests? I’m tire of the fake sanctimonious drivel we get from the bamboozlers.
Arrest the pipeline company executives now. Time for some law and order.
Mother reports that the armed man arrested works for the pipeline company. Oh what a tangled web we weave. Crooked oil wants to start another Wounded Knee against Indians and blame that on them yet again. Obama needs to make sure they do not succeed. Crooked oil is a dangerous felon that behave as the thugs they are. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/10/armed-man-dakota-access-pipeline-protest-dapl
Isn’t it interesting, Mr. Pay, that these professional protesters from California are now taking advantage of some of the fine residents of Standing Rock by hiding behind them after the out-of-staters burn and destroy and throw Molotov cocktails at cops.
Indians are family, Nick. Does that mean anything to your cold responses?
Professional protesters would be getting a paycheck. Kindly show the links that bear truth to your words or try to stay on track. We already have too many misstatements about the facts in North Dakota, so keep it real. If you can show that there is compensation, prove it.
This may be of interest to those who believe in social change for the betterment of us all and for our generations that come after us. What shall we leave them? Here is a letter from Chief Arvol Looking Horse to President Obama http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/10/28/chief-arvol-looking-horse-obama-keep-your-word-166266
Pretty clear on where we have been and where we need go. The time for President Obama to move on this is now clear, there is a serious danger of mass murder by armed thugs with the blessing of yet another oil governor along with the complacent indifference of congressional officials. Indians have seen this before in a history that is not so in the distant past.
If you’re going to make up a lie, Nick why did you choose California as a place evil comes to South Dakota from? Pat Powers does it too, to scare people. Is that a place so mysterious and scary and a place you know so little about from experience that it just has to be bad. Do people from CA want to change South Dakota? Is that their mission in life. Get this, Princess. People in California are just like people in SoDak. They spend 99% of their time thinking about themselves and don’t give a damn about you or changing anybody.
Of course you got evidence of this to back up your accusations, right, Grudz?
Only if you believe the libbie news outlet CNN, Mignon Mike.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/07/us/dakota-access-pipeline-visual-guide/
If you print that out it’s on page 10 of 11, or if you have a computer that can find words like “Molotov” from among a bunch of other words you could run that program to find it.
I noted from the maps that this pipeline will cross the bulk of the state of Iowa, where Mike hails from, like a seatbelt right across the belly of Iowa. I imagine that is concerning to some but I think the Iowa part of the pipeline is already done and buried.
Paul – your question about the validity if the 1851 treaty is a legal one and doubtless fraught with uncertainty but the Supreme Court (then an actual 9 member panel-the republicans in 1980 had not yet changed the rules we play by as they did when Scalia died, a part of their successful broader obstruction tactic) interpreted the 1868 treaty as requiring 3/4 adult male “vote” to change it (e.g. take the black hills from the junction of the Belle Fouche and Cheyenne rivers) but decided the 1868 Treaty was actually just an “agreement” not requiring the 3/4s vote.
It is probable that portions of the 1851 Treaty are still valid, but I have not looked at this specifically in some time. There are some 30 year and other “time limits” for farming, ect. in some of the treaties.
…or rather the 1877 “agreement” threatening starvation to reservation Indians after Custer’s demise.
Sorry, but I can’t find one reference to California groups throwing fire bombs but maybe you’re not lying to scare people. Can you show where CNN said that? But since you’re now trying to change the subject I’ll stick with my assertion that people everywhete spend 99% of their time thinking about themselves and their families and don’t give a damn about changing South Dakota. I did find this, though. Shows what German American cops are really good at.
-Ruffalo told CNN’s Jack Tapper that he did not witness violence when he visited there, but he heard stories from people who said they were thrown in jail naked.
It’s not as if the cops handling this are only from the Dakotas. I’d bet there are quite a few rent a cops and police from other authorities.
The sheriff in Dane County, WI, was asked to send some deputies to help out. Since they handle a lot of protests here in Madison, our sheriff thought they could teach them how to handle protests the Dane County way (not with force). Anyway, when one of our alders was mistreated by some other cops and it became evident that police up there and coming in from the rest of the country were thugs, Sheriff Mahoney pulled out our deputies. He wanted nothing to do with thuggish police behavior.
Seattle Times reports cops from 6 states are there. They have a reporter doing live updates with a photographer.
Here is what your heroes are doing in iowa, Grudz.
http://freakoutnation.com/2016/10/iowa-woman-gets-arrested-on-her-own-property-after-dapl-pipeline-steals-her-farm/
regarding republican supreme court manipulation of the constitution Tim Kaine said: ““I was in the Senate when the Republicans’ stonewalling around appointments caused Senate Democratic majority to switch the vote threshold on appointments from 60 to 51. And we did it on everything but a Supreme Court justice,” Kaine said. “If these guys think they’re going to stonewall the filling of that vacancy or other vacancies, then a Democratic Senate majority will say, ‘We’re not going to let you thwart the law.’”
Democrats, Kaine ultimately predicted, “will change the Senate rules to uphold the law.” huffpo 10.28.16
I found the word molotov. What I didn’t find was reference to professional protesters from California or anywhere else. What gives?
Reliable reports are saying water protesters were arrested, stripped naked, numbered with purple meat carcass ink and put into animal transport cages until bail was paid 30 hours later. That’s deplorable …
Charging buffalo past a camouflaged military HUMVEE at the Cannonball Pipeline protest at about 1:00
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bison-buffalo-dakota-pipeline_us_5814d37de4b0390e69d0987c
CNN is Crazy Nutter Network, glad you still watch it. There are conflicting reports on all of this Mr. Grudznick http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/10/28/conflicting-accounts-emerge-after-treaty-camp-police-action-166259 Who do I believe? Do I believe a police force that has been contracted, more or less, by the crooked oil? Do I believe a “news” network that basically copied and pasted from the Washington Times or vice versa? I dunno. It does seem to me though that when snipers have you in their scopes they would defend themselves if they were being attacked with lethal weapons like fire bombs. I think Fong is wrong.
Molotovs are illegal, Mr. Mignon Mike. Perhaps not in Iowa, from where you hail, but here in the Dakotas they are illegal, indeed. I expect the police to take all necessary measures to punish the throwers of such bombs.
Grudz, can you identify who threw the bombs? Can the authorities? Maybe some one threw them from California all the way to North Dakota.
Now how did we get from you accusing people from California being professional protesters to molotov cocktails are illegal? You got to do a better job of holding up your end of the conspiracy here, fella.
http://www.ecowatch.com/dakota-access-pipeline-emergency-order-2063073522.html
Cops from Wyoming, Minnesota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Wisconsin and Indiana are in North Dakota.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/scott-gates/on-the-standing-rock-tribes-dakota-pipeline-protest-/10154529600627457
A good read.
Last night I stayed at a Day’s Inn in Bismarck. I counted 20 cop vehicles at this same motel. By 6:00 this morning they were leaving the motel. Probably got the call that some unci (grandmother) had taken over some bridge on 1806.
There is a crossing of the Missouri River of gas, not oil. Gas leaks are not as common but will still occur to cause problems as years go by. 1983 was 33 years ago, so this old pipeline is about ready to start blowing its top as well. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39159597/ns/us_news-life/t/aging-gas-pipes-risk-explosion-nationwide/#.WBVV_fkrLIU One of the things that Indians are concerned with regarding oil is why this was put in there backyard rather than Bismark’s. It is a very good question that all of us should be asking. If Bismark was alarmed and denied access, why move it further south to where the Indians are and closer to South Dakota? Keep in mind that the Standing Rock Nation is not Fort Berthold where the oil pipeline crosses Lake Sacajawea. These are two separate sovereign nations with different leadership and different ideas, but the same fight https://www.mprnews.org/story/2016/09/23/north-dakota-tribe-seek-review-of-pipelines-under-reservoir . Also, the gas pipeline was built in 1983 at time when Indians had little if anything to say about anything. The main portion of the Native American Housing and Self Determination Act was enacted in 1996 for prior to that, there was little if anything. That is why the dams got built in the first place. To say that Indians had the right to stop the gas pipeline in 1983, is not accurate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_Housing_Assistance_and_Self-Determination_Act_of_1996
North Dakota and their crooked oil deals are much like South Dakota and our crooked EB5 deals, bullied through with little to no oversight. These are what happens when you have one party systems.
Think of all the corporate heads who have created Superfund sites and other costly environmental problems on and to other’s land in South Dakota. Of the dozen or so I can think of only one was ever arrested, and that wasn’t for the damage he caused. Grudz, when your leaders start locking up and thumping the heads of corporate leaders for their destruction of private and public property, that’s when we won’t have to protest.
“One of the things that Indians are concerned with regarding oil is why this was put in there backyard rather than Bismark’s. It is a very good question that all of us should be asking. If Bismark was alarmed and denied access, why move it further south to where the Indians are and closer to South Dakota?”
Because Bismarck participated in the approval process and expressed their concerns. The tribe did not. They rerouted the pipeline in ND 17 times after hearing this input, and another 140 adjustments to avoid cultural and historical areas that they did on their own. They even changed the Jim River crossing after the survey to avoid burial sites. Funny how you aren’t heard when you don’t participate. What do you expect?
One of the things Indians are concerned with is why whitey wingnuts think the oil under reservation lands belongs to whitey wingnuts. Same could be said of any other precious mineral. But, the most precious treasure of all- water- doesn’t figure in the equation of whitey wingnut’s get rich schemes.
This travesty of a pollution maker wasn’t built 100 years ago and if it isn’t built in the next hundred years- life will go on.
Why not show some respect for the ones here before greed showed up? I know-time is money and every delay cuts profits and profit is the name of this game. Sorry, Indians. You lose some more.
Nice map of the rez, DB. I noticed it also shows the river and Lake Oahe border the rez on the eastern boundary. You know-where the rez water comes from.
According to scale, the protest site doesn’t appear to be more than a couple miles from the rez.
I also noticed that when eminent domain is used landowners lose their rights to their land to korporate amerika. Wonder how the good folks in Bismarck would feel if they lost their rights to eminent domain?
The Abu Ghraib learning experience for the military contractors that represent the crooked oil company, seems to be alive and well at Standing Rock. They strip search you so they get to see you naked and humiliated, put the dogs to you, then hold you in isolation. If you, for any minute, do not think that the right wing is stepping up action, you are a fool. Indians are aware that you can have as many guns as you want to have, but the goons will always have more. Indians are aware that the Iraqi citizens were all armed with a flood of weapons after Iraq fell and yet they were powerless against bigger guns. Violence is not the answer and so far, Indians have had the upper hand in this regard no matter what the forces of big crooked oil and power have said. In the end, the Abu Ghraib was a turning point in how we Americans see the perception of the tyranny of crooked oil and their paid puppets. The outcry from ordinary Americans put the prisoner abuse to an end, just like what will happen in Standing Rock when we come to the realization that our planet is more important than crooked oil and the ungodly power it thrusts on us all.
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/2016/06/20/bakken-pipeline-run-under-sacred-tribal-site/86155990/
Pipeline to go under archeological site in NW iowa. Commissioner feels like it is good idea. Apparently didn’t bother to ask Indians their thoughts.
You are correct, I did not hear of these crossings. I try to follow what the facts are and show where I get the information https://insideclimatenews.org/news/30082016/dakota-access-pipeline-standing-rock-sioux-army-corps-engineers-approval-environment
This was jammed down the throats of everyone from the same outfit that did the Keystone XL, they are all owned and operated by the Koch Brothers in one way or another. The crossing above Bismark was eliminated because they know the dangers of pipeline leaks. Keep that in mind. They moved it because of that onto lands they had no right to do so with because they know it will rupture and cause a catastrophic disaster. You can then condemn the lands the Indians live on and solve that problem without further ado. Forced assimilation has been practiced from the beginning, it is always in the playbook.
Meanwhile, in another atrocity to the environment, the Department of Energy accepted a new round of bidding for the Deep Borehole Disposal Test. Counties in North and South Dakota turned down the project last year.
I submitted a Freedom of Information Act Request to obtain information on the submissions in the Upper Midwest states. The Department of Energy has decided it is not releasing the information until they have a signed contract and a potential site. This seems to run directly counter to their supposed “consent-based siting” guidelines.
However, despite the continued secrecy of the DOE, we do know that several proposals have been made public by the submitters. One in Alabama has run into a buzz saw of opposition, and appears is being turned down. Of course, before it ran into opposition, Battelle had taken it secretly to a county commission executive session, where it got some sort of approval. Citizens appear to be up in arms about this. One other proposal, in Quay County, NM, however, seems to be supported.
So far, of course, we have not heard any information on whether the Upper Midwest States (North and South Dakota, Iowa, Minnesota and Wisconsin) have had proposals submitted to the Department of Energy. Given the secrecy and corruption of the Daugaard administration, it is not likely we will hear anything about whether there has been a submission for another county in South Dakota until after the election. Whether what happened in Alabama (a secret county commission meeting) also happened in South Dakota, is the question of the hour. Has a proposal been submitted, once again, in secret?
Here is a link to an article about the Alabama proposal:
http://www.southeastsun.com/daleville/article_289ecdb4-9d6d-11e6-b221-a7d3889feecf.html
Maybe they will just go ahead and use
Standing Rock Rez as the borehole site.
Looks like Indians had one opportunity to join the planning route of DAPL and turned it down because they say the scope was too narrow. Apparently it was one and done for the Indians.
“Looks like Indians had one opportunity to join the planning route of DAPL and turned it down because they say the scope was too narrow. Apparently it was one and done for the Indians.”
“Contrary to the tribe’s assertions that it was left out of the process, the Judge said, the corps has documented dozens of its attempts to engage with Standing Rock officials in consultations to identify historical resources at Lake Oahe and other places covered by the permit.”
Quit lying Mike.
Whatever it looks like, President Obama ordered it to cease and desist within 20 miles of either side of the Missouri River. The oil companies and taxpayer paid goons, have gone Bundy on this and stockpiled pipe to further desecrate burial and significant lands of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/09/493280504/judge-rules-that-construction-can-proceed-on-dakota-access-pipeline
Quit lying, Daniel. I stand by what was said.
Something of note here too is that the pipeline had started construction before they even had the financial package together to do so. That was not done until August of 2016, just a couple of months ago. https://voxpopulisphere.com/2016/10/25/18295/ This was not even a done deal until then and yet it has proceeded even without the final consultation with the Tribe. The intent was never to consult with them in the first place because they had already seen that they could force their way with a complacent corrupted single party oil state like North Dakota and a corrupted single party EB5 state like South Dakota. The cards were already on the table without anyone’s approval. Obama had made a grave error in the past with green lighting oil and gas and it bit him on the arse. That is why he came to realization that the crooks, as always, acted in bad faith. He can put the toothpaste back in the tube though and stand behind what is right in proper negotiations, in short, he must keep his word to help save this planet and all its people.
Speaking of taxpayers, the cities and towns that have sent officers to Standing Rock should reassess their departments to find out why there is a surplus of officers that can just up and leave for an undetermined space in time. As they are surplus, why pay for that for what is not needed? Seems like another abuse of power directed towards the taxpayers.
I think here is what your are talking about mike from iowa, that date was set over 1 year ago.
EXCERPTS FROM STANDING ROCK SIOUX TRIBE RESOLUTION NO. 406-15 SEP 2, 2015
WHEREAS, the Standing Rock Indian Reservation was established as a permanent homeland for the Hunkpapa, Yanktonai, Cuthead and Blackfoot bands of the Great Sioux Nation: and
WHEREAS, the Dakota Access Pipeline threatens public health and welfare on the Standing Rock Indian Reservation; and
WHEREAS, the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe relies on the waters of the life-giving Missouri River for our continued existence, and the Dakota Access Pipeline poses a serious risk to Mni Sose and to the very survival of our Tribe; and .
WHEREAS, the horizontal direction drilling in the construction of the pipeline would destroy valuable cultural resources of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe; and
WHEREAS, the Dakota Access Pipeline violates Article 2 of the 1868 Fort Laramie Treaty which guarantees that the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe shall enjoy the “undisturbed use and occupation” of our permanent homeland, the Standing Rock Indian Reservation;
NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, that the Standing Rock Sioux Tribal Council hereby strongly opposes the Dakota Access Pipeline; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that the Standing Rock Sioux Tribal Council call upon the Army Corps of Engineers to reject the river crossing permit for the Dakota Access Pipeline…
I hope that in addition to not consuming fossil fuels in the protest of fossil fuels, that protesters are actually fighting for clean water by picking up their pet waste at the protest and at home.
http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/planning/natural-res/shellfish-pet-waste.htm
I suspect that both of these behaviors are occurring among those who are protesting. The problem of pet waste occurs every single day all across the nation.
In the case of the borehole project and use of pipelines, there is always room to improve monitoring. Those who oppose one or both could contribute a skeptical eye that would help prevent problems before they occur, if they were to become trained and support monitoring efforts.
But that would actually make things safer (solve some nuclear waste issues, protect water supplies)….can’t have any of that going on.
Robert McTaggart, pet waste as in horse type pets? To my knowledge no one has picked up any horse doo doo at the Cannonball Camps.
This article predicts roughly 400,000 pounds of dog waste per day for every 1 million dogs: http://shorestewards.cw.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2015/03/Spotlight-on-Dog-Waste.pdf
There are roughly 80 million dogs being kept as pets in the United States: http://www.aspca.org/animal-homelessness/shelter-intake-and-surrender/pet-statistics
80 million dogs * 400,000 lbs of waste/1 million dogs/day * 365 days/year = 11.68 billion pounds of dog waste per year, or 11,680 million pounds of dog waste per year….if not picked up.
This website assumes 200 barrels of oil spilled every day: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/americas_dangerous_pipelines/
OK, so let’s assume that number is correct. 200 barrels /day * 365 days/year* 300 lbs of oil/barrel = 21.9 million pounds of oil per year.
Dog waste is a much bigger problem overall, but it tends to be more spread out than oil spills.
Dogs are different than horses…different diets, different wastes. Primarily bacteria. I submitted a calculation (awaiting moderation) about the scope of the problem.
Did the Sheriff of Morton County arrest Pocohontas or someone(Indian) for stealing buffalo?
Doc don’t worry about horse waste. They’ll end up being fed to dogs anyway, most likely.
Short result of the calculation:
11,680 million pounds of dog waste per year (assuming nobody picks up and disposes of it properly).
22 million pounds of oil in pipeline spills per year.
The former is more spread out than the oil spills, but still a significant number.
Enough distracting dog poop …
By Regina Garcia Cano
The Associated Press
CANNON BALL, N.D.» The crowdsourcing goal was modest: $5,000, enough to help a few dozen people camping in North Dakota to protest the nearby construction of the four-state Dakota Access oil pipeline. The fund has since topped a staggering $1 million.
The fund is among several cash streams that have provided at least $3 million to help with legal costs, food and other supplies to those opposing the nearly 1,200-mile pipeline. It may also give protesters the ability to prolong their months-long encampments that have attracted thousands of supporters, as the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe pursues the fight in court.
Doc is having a sad because no one is talking about nukes. Pitiful, but that is how he rolls.
Great news Mr. Lansing! This is news internationally as well. With many people in Europe seeing this part of the world as a destination stop for tourism. Last thing they want to hear and read about is a bunch of uncontrolled militia beating hell out of Indians while denying civil rights. There support is for the rights of freemen so let the funding continue!
Right, Jerry. My Facebook site has people from many countries and the interest is high. When big events happen, like last Thursday I try to post a succinct synopsis since getting the big picture from what Republicans call the “biased media” isn’t as easy as it was 15 years ago.
*In my opinion the mainstream media now leans right especially since Republican corporations have consolidated newspapers and few have their own reporters, anymore. But … it’s not rigged.
If you are concerned about clean water, dog waste appears to contribute a larger amount of waste to the ecosystem. Particularly in the form of bacteria and parasites.
Disposing of dog waste properly is something you can do at home to make an impact on clean water without consuming fossil fuels to get the protest. The other thing is not chemically treating or over-fertilizing your lawn to keep it uniformly green. That would help too.
Just to show Jerry I am more than just the nuclear guy….
I put in some of the drought-resistant grasses (buffalograss, blue grama) into my yard. I can’t say that it has taken over, since I have several grasses and clover in there, but I can say that I never water the grass and it will come back.
I don’t fertilize the grass either…I just mulch everything in place. The other plants are drought-resistant, so when it gets really dry I will spot water as needed. This fall I put in some blanketflower, purple coneflower, coreopsis, orange daylily (not the ditch lilies), and some helenium (a.k.a. sneezeweed). I won’t get the full color display until next year however.
Its them damn migrating waterfowl what fouls the beaches where kids used to swim.
I don’t know anyone who doesn’t clean up after their dog or pay a public or private firm to do it. I know most who don’t say it’s because their dog is too small. But, if they propose digging a trench under the Missouri River and burying a million tons of poop and telling me it won’t harm the water, I’ll protest that like I protested and helped shut down the Fort St. Vrain nuke power plant. (PS … cattle poop makes good, green alfalfa)
I can state unequivocally that owners do not always pick up their dog’s poop.
Like I said, the concentration is different between dog waste and an oil spill. Others here have issues with CAFO’s. But the point is that it all gets into the water eventually.
A quick look at the history of the Fort St. Vrain plant (Colorado) is that it had a lot of mechanical issues. http://www.fsvfolks.org/FSVHistory_2.html. Turbines, pumps, control mechanisms, etc.
It looks like it was a helium gas cooled reactor, not the water cooled BWRs or PWRs that are in general operation today…is that correct?
Sorry there’s so much poop in Brookings. The last words between us on the subject are yours because it’s off topic and I’m going to spend the next week doing all I can to support Cory’s closing presentation on why he will be a superlative Senator from Aberdeen.
I don’t think dog waste is off topic if the concern is truly about clean water. But wouldn’t you agree there is a lot more to the pipeline debate than simply clean water?
Yes, good luck to Cory. I hope he does well.
“In my opinion the mainstream media now leans right especially since Republican corporations have consolidated newspapers and few have their own reporters, anymore. But … it’s not rigged.”
It’s only rigged in favor of Hillary, especially during the primaries.
“Quit lying, Daniel. I stand by what was said.”
Which is why you are a liar. I have the courts backing my position, what do you have?….oh your opinion. That holds as much water as a colander.
Daniel Buresh
It sounds as though you have conceded the election to Hillary.
Should Trump win the election, will it still have been rigged?
What is probably the most heartening thing about the protesting is that it is about water. Here is the corporate response to what water means to life. It is clear that Nestle’s boss of bosses never got the memo that crooked oil intends on polluting and destroying there gravy train. Take a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWkA-uAPXCE
“It sounds as though you have conceded the election to Hillary.
Should Trump win the election, will it still have been rigged?”
Conceded? I consider that a logical conclusion at this point unless something else huge happens which is still possible. I don’t think the election is rigged, I just think those who seem to point it out without actual proof are morons. We all know the primary was rigged for Hillary and there is more than enough proof of that. The media being in the tank for her only shows that there is no partisanship in the news, and that goes for the single major network that is obviously Pro-Trump. I don’t want either of those clowns. Neither will help the middle class and both are bought and paid for. The only difference between the two is the letter behind their name. People will vote based on topics that won’t even matter in the long term. The most polarizing issues, in reality, are the most meaningless when it comes to us living our daily lives. If Hillary is president, we will become more of a global economy and lose more jobs overseas while fighting more wars. If Trump is president he will destroy the support network we have in place for the low-middle class while destroying foreign relations and making his 1% even more rich. Take your pick.
“What is probably the most heartening thing about the protesting is that it is about water.”
It’s about money. Always has been. Always will be.
Let’s not confuse values of people involved here. Some people value money over water. Some value money over everything, even life. Daniel Buresh seems to value money over water and over life, and it leads to very serious character flaws.
Money for the pipeline company, some government officials and some myopic supporters, like Dan, is certainly a motivating value. We all love money, but some of us don’t value it as much as we do water and life. For us water and survival are necessary for everything else we do, including making money.
The pipeline may be completed, but it will never be safe. There will be oil in the water, and, when that happens, the supporters of this poisonous pipeline will make all sorts of excuses. They probably won’t even remember or care that all the people they run down now have warned it would happen. They, after all, won’t be drinking the water, and they could care less about those that do.
I’ve seen it happen over and over again. The purveyors of the poison, and those who support them, will never be thumped in the head, will never be put in jail, will never even be arrested. They will likely have to spend a little money and pretend they have “cleaned up” the water.
Look at the Brohm Mining site. That site is going to leach and leak poisons for seven generations or more. The investors never got arrested. The company CEO never had to pay up out of all the millions he made. Money flows one-way and the poisons flow the opposite way. People like Daniel Buresh are the takers. They take what isn’t theirs and they would leave us with their mess to clean up. Sociopath is the name for people like Daniel Buresh.
In America, everything is about the money. Come on Mr. Buresh, where ya been? Are we to believe that you think it is all unicorns are pixie dust that makes everything work? Seems like it with an obvious statement like that. Now if we are speaking of the protesters there, well they have to eat, they have to be clothed as it is gettin kind of chilly, they need the same things you need every day. That is why I send money to the fund. Very easy to do, here is one way to get’r done http://standingrock.org/ This is through pay pal, so it is a site that works very well.
“Daniel Buresh seems to value money over water and over life, and it leads to very serious character flaws.”
I value reality and the reality of it is that oil security will be necessary for life to exist until that changes which will be at a minimum of 50 years. Meanwhile, you rely on oil in everything in your life and don’t even understand the repercussions of just stopping production. Hypocritical lunatic is the name for people like you.
http://www.keloland.com/news/article/news/denver-woman-charged-in-shooting-during-pipeline-protest
Peaceful protesters! /s
Just as your ground beef doesn’t originate in the grocery store, the gas for your vehicle doesn’t originate in the gas station. Unfortunately we all need fuel and a way to get the fuel to us. Ironically, even pipeline protesters use fossil fuel to get to the protests.
So let’s use less fuel and get what fuel we use to us safely. That includes better monitoring, better training, better quality assurance methodologies for any pipeline components.
Maybe a Clinton administration would be interested in supporting the development of energy-independent Native American communities (if not other communities currently tied to coal in Appalachia) that also provides some economic development at the same time on their terms. That would be a good outcome and a far better use of resources.
Attempted murder can be whatever the prosecutor or judge says it is. How do they know she wasn’t out to bag an Indian protector?
Daniel-big difference.
Hillary took down Nixon after graduating Yale law school. She had significant political experience by then including staffing McGovern’s presidential campaign.
At the same time, Trump’s undergrad degree got him a failed broadway production and then his (father’s) 14000 NYC apartments were nailed by the JUSTICE department for racial housing discrimination. Not until 1978 did your republican party candidate do his 1st big deal-the Commodore Hotel renovation. Daddy holding Donnie’s hand? :)
shall I go on showing the stark difference between their character? their values?
guys like you who shield their nefarious support for a party of obstructers and deniers and lightweights by equivocating their candidate’s lack of character with ours of real character, are the height of denial.
Dr. McTaggart is righter than right about the dog poop. And I would tell you these illegal ruffians who are trespassing and destroying private property, endangering the public welfare, preventing people from using a public road, are also pooping vast quantities in a field and polluting the water in the big lake far more than any one of the hundred pipelines that cross the river.
trump’s shallow view of the world and the nation are enough to settle any question of his electability.
Of course, you are correct about knowing dog poop by its taste and quantity Mr. grudznick, well played sir.
Yes, peaceful protests are what is going on there for the most part. There have been far more incidents of wrong doing by the oil company than the protesters, but it is clear that both have been in the wrong. I still stand with the protesters for clean water and still stand with the protesters against the taking of anyone’s lands by any means. What say you Mr. Buresh if the oil company came across your land holdings that have been in your family for decades? What if they plowed up your personal families cemetery? Would you want to drag that smoke wagon out that you brag on and take a stand? Or would you simply accept what fate they bestow on you and wimper into the night mumbling would’ve could’ve should’ve?
mfi, you are correct in that we really do not know who this woman may have been working for. There was already a proven incident where a gunman attempted violence upon who knows, but it is clear from the company identification that he was an employee of the pipeline.
From New Zealand native people’s https://www.facebook.com/groups/1102073623245751/
I am talking about protester poop, Mr. jerry. Large, well-fed, tightly-packed, nicely proportioned, high-humidity protester poop polluting the drinking water. And lots of it.
Why is it so difficult to believe that the protectors are there by their own volition?
I know a large number of protectors that have come from all across the country to show their support and they have not been financed by anyone but themselves.
My elderly sister traveled from New Mexico to show her solidarity and to thank the protectors for their dedication.
Thus far, no one has provided any evidence that the protectors are paid,it is just propaganda that Indian haters keep repeating.
The protectors of Wounded Knee weren’t paid by anyone, they came there out of an allegiance and support for the tribe.
The only dogs I saw in the pictures from Camp were the ones used by the illegal security force to attack the protectors.
grudz,
Quit being stupid, there are plenty of porta-potties at camp and they are well maintained.
Mr. H, owner/operator of the Dakota Free Access blog, according to Mr. Belfrage.
I am very glad to hear that, Mr. C. And somewhat relieved.
I suppose the porta-potties were not delivered by trucks running on solar power.
Where have you been Mr. McTaggert, God dropped the porta-potties from the heavens.
Yes, but did they have to be full?
We should also be relieved, porta-pottily speaking, that the fellows who will pick up and then empty and scrub these green plastic cocoons of pooping privacy will earn at least the North Dakota minimum wage. $7.25 and hour.
Doc- how much fossil fuel is being wasted to put the damn pipeline into the ground? Ever figure that out? Add all the police and vigilante cars,suvs and trucks, armored vehicles, planes and helicopters. Any carbon release there at all?
How much fuel does it take to make guns and ammo, and clothing for the workers and cops and bigshots and the loud mouthed Sheriff of Morton County? They make waste, too, don’t they?
How much fuel was used to move all those bulldozers 20 miles to start tearing up disputed ground before a judge could decide whether to halt construction?
grudz, you and doc were off holding hands in never never land trying to dredge up the same old tire arguments about nukes. We get it, you and the doc love the glow. Now if you are speaking of how waste is being handled at the camps in Standing Rock, I would simply say to look no further than the Sturgis Rally and how that human waste is disposed of.
Yup, that all adds to the carbon footprint of the pipeline. But that would be small compared with what we would emit by shipping all of the oil by diesel-powered trains or trucks.
You don’t have to worry about pipelines for nuclear energy, just transmission lines that solar and wind could also use.
Yep indeed doc, still the same old crap from the same old dude that got his fanny handed to him in Spink County. That still makes me laugh my arse off. Ya got nothin
Mr. jerry, I am in favor of The Borehole, which was not to dispose of nuclear waste or do any heinous things to people’s drinking water but which would have been an economic development tool and probably a tourist attraction. Nothing which is going on there on the North Dakota portion of the Standing Rock is #Science at all. It is criminal activity.
grudznick and doc seem pretty preoccupied with poop. I post this for you two madmen for how to evaluate stools. https://www.gutsense.org/constipation/normal_stools.html
I guess if you had your way Jerry, we’d just stop all oil flowing right now. So how would they remove those porta-potties, and how will everybody would get back home from the protest?
If you are honestly worried about clean water, disposing of dog waste properly is cheap to do and actually helps solve the problem.
If you are not worried about clean water, then you see no problem in adding to the problem by driving back and forth (or worse, flying back and forth) to the protest.
The serious side of the actions at Standing Rock cannot be denied though as the struggle continues. The world is watching and caring while our PUC is also part of the problems there that should not be forgotten. When you look at the line of travel for the new route, after the Bismark route was scrapped, you can clearly see that it goes either through or very close to important lands of Indians, that is no accident.
What worries me the most doc, is people like yourself. Those that are so preoccupied with nukes that they try to be clever. There is no doubt that you are not a smart feller doc, but your kind always outsmarts themselves. It is up to folks like those at Standing Rock to stand firm against your kind of clever as it was up to the folks in Spink County that handed your ass to you.
So topology and hydrology have no place in the route planning? Isn’t all land important to Native Americans?
I would agree with you that there are probably multiple routes that are possible, but some of them will cost more than others (both in terms of political cost and monetary cost).
Clearly, Mr. jerry, I am a Type 1 man. Although I confess to enjoying Type 3 as much as the next guy.
Sometime back, our own Thune and Rounds were bellyaching about rail service to the point they were more obnoxious than usual. They blathered on and on. Turns out the rail service listened to safety concerns and did something about that to make them safer. https://www.aar.org/BackgroundPapers/Moving%20Crude%20Oil%20Safely%20by%20Rail.pdf This report was published one year ago and well, I don’t want to give it away, but it seems that rail would actually get the oil to where it needs to go.
So yes, all land is important to Native Americans that is for sure. They also know the importance of rail systems as it was first used to open their lands. They get it that rail systems is a lot safer to move this oil than pushing it under a water source that supplies millions or over a water source that does the same with an aquifer that bears their name (although misspelled), but you can’t have everything.
There are many ways to avoid using fossil fuels to protest fossil fuels. Some of the protesters are on horseback, for example.
To replace oil with electricity in the transportation sector, figure out how much we will need to expand our electricity generating capacity accordingly.
You may actually use your solar/wind capacity better, since if there is no demand on the grid you could conceivably switch over to charging batteries. You reduce the mismatch between when renewable power is produced and when we demand energy.
But the problem with doing everything with renewables will be the total amount of energy that is required, and the amount of energy you lose during the process of charging the batteries.
Mr. McTaggert’s obsession with how the protestors get back and forth to Camp by vehicles and planes using fossil fuels is a not to subtle way of saying the Indians should only use horses or other means not requiring fossils fuels.
If the Indians only traveled by 18th century transportation they wouldn’t have time to be on the forefront in opposing DAPL.
Pretty clever, huh?
I also don’t get why the pipeline isn’t above ground where anybody could inspect it, but then again not everyone can get to it either.
But if folks are happy with transporting the oil by train, that’s fine with me. Just as long as people are fine with the level of safety they provide and the added carbon footprint they produce.
Indeed Roger, this clever fellow still thinks of Indians as some sort of fantasy that should not be taken seriously. Why would he not think this way, has it not been his kind thinking since long before territory days. Fetterman thought much the same in his own clever way. He got his wish with the same amount of fellows he thought he would need. Doc needs to stop underestimating the power of protest Roger, you would think that might have soaked in during his siege of Spink County, but alas, he has forgotten that he and Heather got the Fetterman treatment there.
Maybe I am being too subtle Roger, but it is regarding the hypocrisy in using fossil fuels in the protest of fossil fuels. One is only emphasizing the need to use fossil fuels, and thus the use of pipelines to deliver said fossil fuels.
I would rather switch the transportation sector to some combination of electricity, fuel cells (likely hydrogen) and/or next generation biofuel. But I don’t see that happening overnight. While the transition occurs, let’s use less fossil fuel, and make its distribution as safe as possible.
Quite the opposite Jerry. Native American communities have the opportunity to be test beds for energy-independence without fossil fuels. If you cannot avoid using fossil fuels in a community, how is that going to be possible for a city, region, or state?
All of this pipeline nonsense was started on make believe. https://www.dtnpf.com/agriculture/web/ag/perspectives/blogs/market-matters-blog/blog-post/2014/08/25/sd-shipper-train-grain The pipeline was concocted not to aliveate the rail issues at the two years ago, it was to line investors pockets with this dangerous boondoggle of a sure to leak pipeline. The rails need to be built as part of our infrastructure to move oil, farm and people to where they need go. The pipeline systems in the United States are old and failing. Moving product by rail would get the products where needed without the dangers of polluting waterways, historical places and agricultural locations. Pull up the pipeline, cover the trench, melt the pipe to make rails and lets move on.
Pipelines, water systems, railroads, power plants, roads, bridges, etc. are all in need of replacement or repair. But apparently we’d rather not pay for the maintenance or the replacement…until something bad happens…then the money starts to flow.
Of course you kid doc about a testing ground for renewables. What grid would you propose using? Where is the money going to come from doc? In case you might have missed it, there is a crisis happening regarding healthcare regarding Indians. In fact, the same healthcare crisis that regards Indians also happens to be going on with working white folks, the abandonment of society on the needs for all who are poor in the pocket but rich in mind and ability. Take baby steps doc, first you take care of the people, then we move on to other things. As an educated man with good income, you are not aware of the suffering that is going on around you here as well as Standing Rock.
The protectors would welcome any and all safe infrastructure assistance to better themselves of course, that is why they are protesting. They know full well that this oil is going to contaminate the Missouri River, as everyone who has a brain can figure that out. The protectors know and that is why they protest.
Jerry, how are you going to reduce the carbon emissions from using diesel trains or electric trains that run off of electricity from coal?
This is the here and now Doc, the reality. There are not any immediate alternative resources for Indians to use to get back and forth from Camp.
It is not hypocrisy for Indians to use what transportation means are available to them, it is political expediency. If Indians only traveled by horse from New Mexico, Arizona, North Carolina and elsewhere that foreign company trying to build the pipeline would already have it in the ground.
Excellent points Jerry, you have a clear understanding of the Native American heart and I am proud to call you a protector.
In most of western South Dakota, there is this “Mni Wiconi, which means “water is life” in the Lakota language, started two decades ago when tribal members reached a deal to become part of a rural water system being planned for non-Indian communities in western South Dakota” You can read and see that there has been a very good relationship with Indians and non Indians regarding water as it is truly water is life. How can any one look at what is going on at Standing Rock and deny that there is not a firm belief in the protectors regarding the source of life to all here? If one cannot see this, it is because they wish to look elsewhere. Water is life.
Appalachia probably has a lot in common with Native American communities….more than you know.
DOE, State Department, EPA, Interior, State of South Dakota, etc. are probably going to have to work together with Native American groups and maybe external groups to develop a funding mechanism due to the politics involved and the work that is necessary. The final product will be unique due to all the moving parts.
But if everybody wants it to work, they’ll find a way. It only needs to be successful in one community to start with. Then the others will apply the lessons learned and the momentum will pick up.
The best way to accomplish what we need to do with renewable energy is to start by electing Henry Red Cloud to the PUC. He is light years ahead of Chris Nelson’s rigid status quo positions.
Appalachia was stolen from the Indians. There is still an original enclave in western North Carolina that survives to this day. http://themoonlitroad.com/cherokee-native-americans-appalachia/ So the common that is common is what has been done to destroy the place and what the protectors see in oral history as well. Your words are just those doc, as sweet as they sound, Indians know that they are empty from overuse. One must live for the day as tomorrow is not a promise. We can all start by dismantling this terrible monstrosity called DAPL. Throttle it like the vermin it is and then we can find ways for progress.
Indeed Roger, Henry Red Cloud would do more to bring development of renewable energy to South Dakota than Chris Nelson and he would be able to work with the other members in the PUC to get things done!
Well Roger, that tells me that cost is a key factor in our use of energy. That is why we don’t all have solar panels on our roofs at the moment, and that is why we operate gasoline-powered vehicles.
Jerry, you actually have to produce the energy that people use, at a cost that they can afford, when they want to use it. Here is a small opportunity for solar and wind to prove that it can replace fossil fuels, and it hasn’t happened so far.
Robert,
I somehow get the impression that you are suggesting that we freeze all forms of fossil fuels until we can fully develop alternative energy.
Regardless of what Jerry says, you refer back to what we need to do for energy development. Which is all good and well, but fossil fuels are pretty much our only form of affordable energy.
“We can all start by dismantling this terrible monstrosity called DAPL. Throttle it like the vermin it is and then we can find ways for progress.”
But the pipeline does not force you to put gasoline in your car. The pipeline exists because the demand exists.
Sounds like you want to be a free rider when it comes to energy. You want to enjoy all the benefits of access to energy on demand, but do not like the infrastructure that is necessary to achieve that.
I think I have driven home my opposition to denying the need for fossil fuels while actually using them to support the protests. :^)
I have said that we need to use less fossil fuels and safely transport the fossil fuel that we do use. We need to make a transition to alternatives like electricity, hydrogen, or biofuels to slowly reduce our use of fossil fuels.
Jerry will disagree with me of course, but nuclear energy can help provide that electricity directly, as well as deliver the process heat necessary for generating hydrogen or processing biofuels. How important is it to eliminate pipelines and reduce our carbon emissions? We’ll find out when we actually build new nuclear to support the displacement of oil in our economy.
Nuclear energy uses an ALARA approach to reduce the dose that workers receive, so something similar could be developed to reduce oil spills (i.e. as low as reasonably achievable). If you don’t want nuclear but are willing to wait quite a long time for solar/wind/batteries to mature, that is what you have to do.
I only know what I know doc, nukes suck almost as much as what we taxpayers have unleashed at Standing Rock, Check out who these guys are “As of Oct. 18, several security companies were working for Dakota Access. According to the Morton County investigation, TigerSwan Security is in charge of Dakota Access intelligence and supervises the overall security.” http://bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/investigators-dog-handlers-were-not-licensed-to-work-security/article_4414ac82-191b-516a-bdd7-a4d0ff635247.html Tiger Swan is a bunch of bad actors for sure, so Fong got it right about that, it was just misinterpreted as being protectors.
And we taxpayers are footing the bill for the out of state police presence there as well under the guise of a weather emergency. So the police presence that Mr. Seamans noted in Bismark, was courtesy of weather management abuse. In the event of a real weather emergency, the fund will probably be broke as a joke.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-31/largest-u-s-gasoline-pipeline-shuts-after-alabama-explosion
You are right Jerry, the costs of the protests will be passed along to the taxpayers in some fashion. Whether you see that as a cost of doing business as a free society or not will depend on your view of things.
Mike, there have been other gasoline issues in the Southeast due to pipeline infrastructure issues. Natural gas pipeline infrastructure in the Northeast always seems to be a problem during the winter for heating or electricity production.
And that problem for electricity is being exacerbated by the premature closure of a couple of nuclear plants in the Northeast. Sounds like the plan is more natural gas with the same outdated infrastructure….nothing could go wrong there.
I don’t fault the protesters from using fossil fuels to drive to and from the protest sites. That is just a matter of convenience, logistics, and availability and to make it an issue is rather petty. I also don’t think we need to delve into the topic of dog waste as if that is even remotely relevant here.
The truth is, this entire debate is really about placement. We have hundreds – perhaps thousands of existing pipelines in the US. There are thousands of areas where those pipelines cross rivers or streams or travel near aquifers or lakes.
Like it or not, this really boils down to NIMBYism. Most people are still out there using oil, and they like paying $2 a gallon for gasoline, but they just don’t want a pipeline in areas that they personally care about. Put the pipeline on the land in another state or in a distant county and suddenly nobody cares. Why do we know this? Because of the existing two million miles (yes really) of pipelines that nobody seemed to care about. Because the DAPL being 90% complete before the first protester bothered to show up. Because the distinct lack of concern about the pipeline during the permitting process (which was in 2014) or the protests when the pipeline company bought the land from private landowners.
When it comes to this protest, the reality lies somewhere in between the two extremes. I doubt everyone there even understands the issues. Many have picked their sides even before bothering to read about the issues due to preexisting biases, and many have made their minds up based upon conveniently edited facebook posts or videos.
At the end of the day, I doubt any of it will matter. The permits exist and although these protests will delay the completion, I sincerely doubt they will result in the pipeline not being completed. If people really want to eliminate pipelines, they need to push for alternatives to actual oil. If we don’t need the oil we don’t need the pipelines. Period.
One other point. Like it or not, pipelines are the safest form of transporting oil. If we are concerned about damage to water sources, we need to be honest and admit that the potential damage to water sources is greater if oil is shipped via truck or rail. The US DOT studies don’t lie on this point and we know that trains and highways cross rivers, streams, creeks, and lakes all the time. Thus eliminating a pipeline would actually increase the potential risk for environmental damage. The only possible way this isn’t the case would be if the pipeline ran along a route which was concentrated near waterways while the alternative rail routes did not, but I don’t see that as being the case here.
If anything, I hope people are learning from this so the next time someone even suggests the idea of a pipeline they can make their voices heard long before any dirt is moved or a permit is approved. More importantly however is if we really want to see the end of these types of pipelines then we need to continue pushing for more forms of renewable energy. Sadly, we seem to have a lot of pressure against those forms in our state, so we are left with the status quo of coal and oil until people wake up and realize the harm it causes.
North Dakota has applied for a $4 million dollar loan to cover the costs of the Guvs over reaction and calling an emergency.
Democracy costs money, blood, pain, anger, civil disobedience and on and on….
Craig, the whole point of the dog waste discussion is that if you are really concerned about clean water, dog waste is the bigger problem. No doubt oil spills tend to be more concentrated and present a more immediate and greater threat when they occur.
But I don’t think the protests are all about clean water…that is just a politically expedient vehicle for debates about property rights, interactions with the federal government, development on their terms, etc.
Protesters can drive back and forth all they want with gasoline-powered vehicles. But to be consistent with their energy use and interests in clean water, the arguments should then be over pipeline safety, not ripping out the pipelines that they depend on.
It can also be about promoting the alternatives, but they are losing the opportunity to show that the alternatives work. It doesn’t look good if they get to use cheap fossil fuels whenever they want to get to the protests, while forcing everyone else to pay for more expensive alternatives.
Exxon’s easement agreement with Mayflower, Ark landowners said Exxon does not have to maintain pipeline that flooded the town with bitumen.
Class action lawsuit was thrown out and Exxon paid 5 million bucks. Sounds like a rigged/stacked deck against humanity.
For the record there is one person dead from a pipeline yesterday and zero from truck or trains carrying oil.
DAPL was routed 10 miles North of Bismark and people freaked. It is now about half a mile from the Standing Rock Rez and the people freaking out there didn’t freak out soon enough to suit critics.
“For the record there is one person dead from a pipeline yesterday and zero from truck or trains carrying oil.”
Oil and water trucks kill people every week in ND. Try again.
If folks are more comfortable with trucks or trains, by all means use trucks and trains. But first figure out how much truck traffic would be required to deliver the fuel. More trucks on the road will mean a greater chance for accidents.
Doc let’s do an experiment. Take a pound of oil and a pound of dog waste and see which one breaks down into usable nutrients for the soil first. Include bitumen if it helps.
Of North Dakota’s 65 workplace fatalities in all industries in 2012, 40 were classified as transportation-related; the proportion was similar on the national level.
Less than one per week during the boom, DB. Try again.
Of North Dakota’s 65 workplace fatalities in all industries in 2012, 40 were classified as transportation-related; the proportion was similar on the national level.
Less than one per week during the boom, DB. Try again.
You forget the bacteria and parasites that dog waste carries. Those impact clean drinking water as well as the biosphere of the watershed they wind up in.
As with nuclear waste and the waste generated by wind or solar, different waste forms will have their unique impacts.
“Of North Dakota’s 65 workplace fatalities in all industries in 2012, 40 were classified as transportation-related; the proportion was similar on the national level.
Less than one per week during the boom, DB. Try again.”
Innocent bystanders killed in car accidents are classified as workplace fatalities? What world do you live in?
Very good points Craig, but if I may, I would point out this article on the permits and when they ere approved and how that happened. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2016/08/new-american-mega-pipeline-youve-never-heard-dakota-access-bakken
It is proven, through documents, that the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe was in opposition to this when it first hit the planning stage. This was nothing new to them and it was not like they just sat around and waited until after the fact to act. This pipeline was done in secret and done in such a way that construction, pipe and the like were already staged and ready before action could be taken. In short, dishonest politicos like Chris Nelson knew of all of this beforehand and yet did not protect our states landowners from Eminent Domain or the theft and abuse of their land. Dakota Free Press reported on this, the gent on whose land they were gonna cross complained as well, but the die was cast by those who worked under the cloak.
Moving product through pipelines works pretty good until there is a problem, then it can disrupt an entire section of land as mfi reports. Rail is still the best way to go as it gets the coal to the plants, it gets the grain to market and it gets the oil to where it need go. I know that the 2 million miles of pipeline of all kinds move stuff around this country. I also know that gas and oil corrode the pipes and cause weakness in those old lines. We here live in a place that allow for thinner walled construction so it is more prone to failure just like in other parts of the country where poor people live.
As you note so well, the status quo we are left with leaves us in a terrible way for the safety of our waters and our way of life. We could solve all of our problems in matters of months instead of decades by changing our directions of energy usage into local renewable efforts. We can do this without so much oil dependence, so much coal dependence and no nuke dependence. It has to be something like solar, wind and geo thermal to make up what we need. I do not see airplanes operating on sunlight, but I do see them operating with green products as some are doing now. We can do this if we have the will to stop wars and stop being so cavalier about our most precious resource, water. In the meantime, the protectors are on the right trail to correct this injustice and I support them without question.
mfi, as if by magic here is a nice report on water projects across the country. Taxpayers care about water quality and the disposing of waste while we endanger raw water with an unnecessary river crossing with a sure way to pollute it massively. http://www.rd.usda.gov/files/RD-WEPAwardsOctober2016.pdf
Let’s not forget all the pollution done before the pipelines spill.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=water%20pollution%20from%20north%20dakota%20fracking
Civilians are collateral damage and don’t count. Ask dumbass dubya and Cheney, DB.
I forgot nothing, Doc. I am not a scientist. I toss stuff out there and you smart guys can do the analyzing.
Thanks for some good news, Jerry.
“Let’s not forget all the pollution done before the pipelines spill.”
Still doesn’t compare to burning carbon to move carbon. Environmental impact is less with pipelines, especially when it comes to putting CO2 into the air. I’ll take the rare occurrence of polluted land and water over increased carbon emissions. We have a better chance at cleaning what is here on earth than the air above it.
“I forgot nothing, Doc. I am not a scientist.”
You weren’t fooling anyone…..especially with the lies you try to perpetuate.
[—]. What was that fable about casting the first stone?
Taxpayer paid mercenaries run the show in North Dakota. We here have given in to the same elements that run Afghanistan and other third world states that are run by despots. Proud moments in American history going back to the days of oil barons like Rockefellers and the uprisings in Colorado. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/militia-slaughters-strikers-at-ludlow-colorado
When you have paid mercenaries, you run the risk always of a massacre.
Mike, risks associated with bacteria/parasites in the water have to be taken into account just like the risks associated with different chemicals or heavy metals in the water. I agree we need to reduce the frequency and the volume of oil spills, and clean them up when they happen. Part of that is reducing the demand for fossil fuel by using it more efficiently.
Jerry, I understand you would like to avoid certain energy sources, but unless you can store the energy, wind and solar are not delivering the energy whenever we demand it. Which unfortunately means more natural gas delivered by pipelines to make up the difference (nuclear is pipeline-free).
However, dedicated uses that are not tied to demand, such as secondary heating and cooling or recharging of electric car batteries, would benefit from more solar and wind.
There are so many different things that are talked about when people think about the reasons for the Standing Rock resistance. Climate change, fracking, eminent domain, police brutality, corrupt politicians, biased media, cultural resources, treaty rights etcetera, etcetera. But to the Standing Rock people it is all about the protection of our water. Water is sacred, water is life, water is the first medicine. Most non-natives don’t understand this concept. We feel that water is there to be used for industry, for fracking, for in situ uranium mining. We better come around to the native way of thinking real soon.
If that is the most important thing, then why drive to the protest site? Why consume fossil fuels which use pipelines for their delivery?
@Paul, you are absolutely correct! People get so worked up in their “minds” and “the debate” because of competing money interests and other insanities! Corporate greed and hatred will not sustain us, but clean water and healthy ecosystems will. I really have hope that there is a great awakening happening to these basics of life: clean Water, clean Air, clean Earth, and clean Fire (the sun, i.e. solar) which all combine to provide our food and our sustenance, and therefore our health, life and joy of being!
Like I said Robert McTaggart, most non-natives will not under stand this whole concept of protecting our water. If DAPL would have avoided crossing the Missouri River near Cannonball there would be no Standing Rock camps. To the Standing Rock people the main objective is NOT to stop the development of fossil fuels. This is the agenda of those who came later. The Standing Rock people are protecting their drinking water supply. They are doing this for theirselves, they are doing it for me, they are even doing it for you, Robert.
Paul, Please clarify. Are you speaking for Standing Rock Sioux Tribe? Are you saying that Standing Rock did not oppose the Keystone XL pipeline that would have affected the Ogallala aquifer, but not “your” water?
Then contributing to the safety of the pipeline should be primary, if this isn’t about opposition to fossil fuels.
I think some are treating this like abstinence as a solution for family planning. In principle if you just stop doing certain activities, like using fossil fuels altogether for transportation, then you won’t need to worry about pipelines.
So yeah it would work, but then there is what actually happens in the real world and the unintended consequences of abiding to a theory.
Robert, Why do you want the pipeline?
Leo,
Given that we will be using gasoline for some time, delivery by pipeline is generally safer than by truck or train. Furthermore, the delivery by pipeline has a lower carbon footprint than train or truck transport would.
My preference would be to replace fossil fuels in transportation with alternatives like electricity, but we are not ready to do that yet. People will make the better choice if options are available.
Robert,
Pipeline leaks and spills go unreported and they cause great harm to our environment, and therefore health and safety. They are not safer to the broader public, just more secretive. Over 200 leaks alone in South Dakota and North Dakota have gone unreported by the national media. We recognize the need to transform our energy sources away from fossil fuels on an emergency basis. #GreenNewDeal
My question, more to the point of my original question to you is, have you invested monetarily in the Dakota Access Pipeline, and is that your primary motivation for defending it?
doc is trolling again. Anything to stay off subject as he is all butt hurt because Spink County kicked his behind so now everyone must suffer because of his hurt feelings.
Leo, I am not speaking for the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. I am not a tribal member. However, I have been involved in the DAPL ever since Joey Malmoud and his DAPL circus came to South Dakota. I was an intervenor in the PUC permit hearings on the DAPL. I have been working with people on the Standing Rock since March of this year. I was invited by the Standing Rock Tribal Chairman to speak at an Army Corps of Engineers hearing at the Grand River Casino in April. I was invited to speak at an ACOE hearing by the Yankton at Ft. Randall. By invite I spoke at three other tribal meetings, one before the ACOE in Omaha. I have been involved enough in this DAPL fight long enough that I feel pretty safe in saying that the Standing Rock people are in this fight to protect the water.
Robert: “Craig, the whole point of the dog waste discussion is that if you are really concerned about clean water, dog waste is the bigger problem.”
So basically you admit it is a distraction. I agree this debate isn’t all about the environment, but if we are going to point out hypocrisy it would be a full time job and we would all be included in the same pool. Trying to point out the lack of concern about dog waste or the hypocrisy of using fuel to drive to and from the protest sites are just distractions. For someone who honestly cares about the environment they know a small impact now may result in a much larger impact later… so this is really not a valid point of debate and seems petty.
Mike: “For the record there is one person dead from a pipeline yesterday and zero from truck or trains carrying oil.”
Yesterday – so that is your metric? We only care what happened yesterday… ignore the rest of history? We know for a fact shipping oil via pipeline is much safer than other methods so why even debate that point? It is a non-starter.
Jerry: “Rail is still the best way to go as it gets the coal to the plants, it gets the grain to market and it gets the oil to where it need go.”
How can you say rail is best when data shows that pipelines are 4.5x safer?
Just look at the accident a few years ago in Quebec which resulted in 1.5MM gallons of oil spilled and killed 42 people. Had that derailment occurred near water I’m sure the environmental impact would have been far greater.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaster
This isn’t the only recent train spill, but it was one of the worst. Pipelines leak too – but generally they don’t result in dozens of deaths and the damage is isolated.
If we want to replace oil shipments from pipelines with train cars there will be more accidents, more deaths, and more environmental damage because it isn’t as if we are laying new rails – we are just packing more and more trains on the same aging infrastructure and more trains on the same tracks results in more accidents. This doesn’t even factor in the small amount of leakage and spillage from the train cars while loading or unloading nor does it factor in the amount of fossil fuels used to transport the trains back and forth. It also doesn’t factor in all of the transporting of oil via truck to even get to the trains in the first place. I can understand debating whether a pipeline should exist in this specific area, but I cannot understand the debate between pipelines vs. trains when pipelines are safer, result in less damage, and are more efficient.
http://business.financialpost.com/news/energy/pipelines-much-safer-than-shipping-oil-by-rail-fraser-institute-study-says?__lsa=87f5-836d
There is no such thing a safe method of transporting oil, but if we have to choose between two evils it sort of makes the most sense to choose the least harmful option. The larger argument should center around how we can get to the point that these pipelines are no longer needed.
The real problem I see is once the pipes are in the ground and the pipeline is operational, will people just go on with their lives? Or will they start making life choices to reduce their dependency on oil? Because if they don’t make any changes…. they become part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
I’ll continue to push for more renewables but I feel like I’m in the minority. Right here in our very own state I’ve seen citizens push back against wind power and against solar power – so how can we ever get away from fossil fuels when people won’t allow alternatives?
So pipelines are safer? Rails are safer? In the meantime, water is the issue. Always was the issue and will be that way. The Keystone XL was over the water purifying system for our underground use. When that failed, the oil companies wanted it to go under the waterways. Here is a flash, under or over, it will leak and destroy our water. Simple stuff. We have no need for this oil whatsoever. We can do without it with what we have floating in the Gulf. When Trump becomes president, then what? http://www.worldenergysource.com/worldenergy-blog/trump-on-energy-in-politics
When our water becomes to the point of the Love Canal, when our cancers become so commonplace that we just ignore the lesions, when our eyesight becomes so empty, we will then start our evolution into cockroaches that depend on nothing while consuming everything. Right into the hands of doc and his merry band of hand dancers. Or we could start right now to change. We could vote a change in the PUC, we could support the protectors of our water at Standing Rock. We could do all of that or we could just be complacent little humanoids and look to the direction of doc to solve our problems with nukes both to disagree with folks while keeping is in the warm glow of atoms. Lovely
As I have said several times earlier, oil spills when they occur tend to be more concentrated and therefore a pose a localized risk. That is why I support enhanced monitoring, better quality assurance, better materials, and more maintenance.
Turning away from fossil fuels is a good goal. That’s why the protesters should recognize that urgency and use this opportunity to avoid using fossil fuels to power their protest.
No, I am not an investor in this pipeline, and I receive no financial benefit from any party by posting my opinions on this blog. You are free to provide your own opinions, present your own facts, and publicize your own affiliations.
Generally I will engage more often when energy or environmental issues come up. It is no secret that I am pro-nuclear…just ask Jerry ;^).
Paul you did appear to be speaking for the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe when you said “To the Standing Rock people the main objective is NOT to stop the development of fossil fuels. This is the agenda of those who came later. The Standing Rock people are protecting their drinking water supply.”
If you know of any negotiations of Standing Rock Sioux Tribal members regarding these pipelines, and that they are actually promoting them and fossil fuels (just not over the Missouri River), then you need to inform the public, Mr. Seamans.
Thank you Robert for answering my question about your motivations, and I apologize for seeming rude because that has not been my way. I, too, am merely a citizen with an opinion and derive no financial gain from expressing my deeply held views.
Leo, I appreciate you clearing up the fact that I am not speaking for the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe. Only Chairman Dave Archambault has that authority.
I sometimes get carried away and act like I really know what I am talking about. From the looks of this comment thread I am not alone.
Mr. Seaman’s is and has been a well respected spokesman for Native American environmental issues. He is well versed on tribal concerns and has also spoken out against the Keystone XL and other issues.
You will find that there are non-tribal members speaking out against DAPL and I’m certain that the Standing Rock Sioux Tribes appreciates his activism.
Paul. for the record you can be the source/authority for the Standing Rock Sioux if you so desire. I never tire of hearing your opinions as you are right in the middle of the messes with pipelines in your bailiwick.
Just keep on keeping on.
Thanks Roger. Your kind words mean a lot to me.
Craig,
11.8 billion pounds of dog waste every year, 22 million pounds of oil spilled. Reducing oil spills requires engineering/maintenance all along the pipeline. Just pick up and dispose of the dog waste properly when it happens. Which method is more cost-effective in supporting clean water?
There is no such thing as zero risk. Risk analysis is based on probabilities, and one always has some non-zero probability assigned to different potential outcomes. If the threshold for doing anything is zero risk, then good luck with getting anything done.
This discussion for pipeline safety reminds me about flying in airplanes. Probably the safest form of travel, but when something goes wrong it is a problem.
Thanks to you Mike as well.
That is why I support enhanced monitoring, better quality assurance, better materials, and more maintenance.
Doc everything you say is all well and good in theory. But, as we all know, trying to strengthen regs on a poor, beaten down industry that doesn’t make hardly any profits won’t pass wingnut muster in congress.
compare the problem of pollution of Yellowstone river domestic water source for millions (Missouri river) by leaking pressurized pipeline vs. up to 100 burning crashed rail cars leaking oil.
dog poop or buffalo chips is/aren’t worth reading about
I expect more from a professor or nuclear scientist.
dead buffalo on the other hand, killed by the government to starve a population by genocide, shipped by rail to Michigan I think, are worth reading about. This chilling photo evidence is wall-sized at the Bismarck museum.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=n%2fOdqIXD&pccid=1yZSAOna&id=44BE2EADE78CEFACA1DB8A7B572882B9D59867A1&pmid=0E3A73BDC00FB37D1AB398DC5E5070479CBB459B&q=buffalo+skulls+photo&qpvt=Buffalo+Skull+Pile&psimid=608038860623512842&iss=VSI&selectedIndex=2&count=35
distribution of gasoline wholesale and retail.
LARGE gasoline tanks outside RC are visited by, for example, DOVE tractor trailers to haul gasoline across the state(s) to the various interstate fuel stops. How the much larger gallonage got to the tank farm in the 1st place is not known.
Leslie,
Hmmm…..Gamma rays and X-rays are often used in non-destructive testing of pipes to look for cracks. Ultrasound is another technique. In theory studying failure mechanisms allow you to understand how the material will behave as it ages. Then you can maintain it to extend the lifetime, or replace it before it can fail.
Gamma rays would also be great for sterilizing bacteria and parasites in dog waste, but would not be very cost-effective. The heat generated by the city dump tends to kill them off too.
Mike,
There are a lot of things that we are not funding properly. But the cost of not doing the proper maintenance and repair only leads to bigger spills and more expensive clean-ups. Taxes seem to be denied, but “user fees” have more potential in funding such efforts.
Thanks Leo,
There are a lot of deeply held views on this blog!
Paul, if Chairman Archambault’s position is to advocate in any way for the increased use and development of fossil fuels that will contribute to Global Warming and Climate Change, then the Chairman needs to be very clear about that in this discussion. If he is not clear about this, then he will be responsible for committing a global deception because not everyone in the world understands that this is not just about #WaterIsLife. Do you hear me?
Leo, I have not seen anywhere where Chairman Dave Archambault has advocated for increased development of fossil fuels.
Do you hear me?
Jerry: “We have no need for this oil whatsoever.”
Well if you can convince the American public of that in the next couple of months then the problem will be solved. However since we (as a nation) now consume around 20MM barrels of oil each and every day I think you’re in for quiet a battle.
I’d love it if we didn’t need oil, but I doubt I’ll see that day in my lifetime. In the meantime we will either produce it domestically or ship it in from other areas such as the middle east. Some of the domestic oil is most likely more harmful to the environment, while some of the middle eastern oil is more harmful to the human race. I’ll let you decide for yourself which is preferable.
“We’re not opposed to energy independence. We’re not opposed to economic development,” he told CNN. “The problem we have — and this is a long history of problems that evolved over time — is where the federal government or corporations take advantage of indigenous lands and indigenous rights.”
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/07/us/dakota-access-pipeline-visual-guide/
Yes I do Paul. This is a BLOG where people get to share their ideas and opinions. Unless I am mistaken and this BLOG is merely a propaganda source where only club members get to share, then block me and your brother and sister. Please forgive me my ignorance of who you are and what you have done because this is a BLOG where people comment. From what I have witnessed, I think we have shared policies and goals; however, I respectfully agree to disagree on principles.
Dale County, Alabama, has turned down Battelle-Department of Energy deep borehole project.
http://www.dothaneagle.com/news/local/nuclear-waste-test-hole-project-in-dale-county-appears-dead/article_d053701c-a05d-11e6-bd4a-ab3a4c63d69e.html
http://www.southeastsun.com/daleville/article_7a229986-a065-11e6-9c25-57fee060548c.html
Great news Mr. Pay, great news!
Hello Craig, here is what I meant, http://www.wsj.com/articles/despite-shale-glut-u-s-imports-more-foreign-oil-1462310512
Of course we are using oil and of course we need it to run the engine of capitalism. I did post a current article though on the safety of rail cars since those that exploded some years back. I am not sure you read it so I will post again. https://www.aar.org/BackgroundPapers/Moving%20Crude%20Oil%20Safely%20by%20Rail.pdf
No Porter, I do not believe you. Obama has not stopped this pipeline despite the three agency determination. The pumping station is already only 1/2 mile from Lake Oahe despite the 20 mile zone “demanded” by the Obama administration. See video proof below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BriIaRuvPp0
Robert, please tell me again how safe pipelines are. In most recent news:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJGKx6i84kw#t=191.315958
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/01/oil-prices-fall-for-fourth-day-after-stockpile-build.html
Largest jump ever in crude stockpile in US lends credence to the oil from this newest pipeline heading overseas and not necessary to US energy independence.
Maybe all the law enforcement and military equipment should leave North Dakota and head to Des Moines, Iowa where two policeman were shot and killed senselessly just sitting in their cars.
We, as a nation, still import a LOT of oil. We export some, but we are still a net importer. Until that changes it is dishonest to suggest any domestic oil isn’t helping to contribute to our energy independence.
http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=727&t=6
Again – if we won’t want to produce oil domestically we need to be prepared to import more from some nations that don’t particularly care for us. Choose your poison.
President Obama says that it is possible for the pipeline to be rerouted as that is something the Corp is looking into. https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/793656884083339264
The Gulf of Mexico is essentially one big ol oil drum of storage that manipulates the market as oil companies needs to keep us all fooled. We are so easy…squirrel https://www.ft.com/content/f763a6da-8859-11e5-9f8c-a8d619fa707c
DAPL is a key pipeline connecting with Energy Transfer Pipeline at Patoka, Illinois to transport oil to the Sunoco Logistics terminal in Nederland, Texas. This isn’t so much about temporary construction jobs, a few permanent jobs or energy independence, it is more about what the oil industry doesn’t advertise. After their lobbyists convinced Congress to lift the oil export ban, the push is to exploit US oil and sell to foreign countries (China) on the world market for bigger profit. Big oil profits seem to have priority over protecting Standing Rock’s drinking water source. But hey, at least they were kind enough to move it away from the Capitol city of Bismarck because of water contamination concerns.
Leo,
Delivery by pipelines is safer than by rail or by truck. Not for one incident, but overall. But if you don’t bother to maintain and repair the infrastructure, or pay to replace it when needed, then the risk of failure increases.
You are consuming electricity by being on this blog. Part of that electricity comes from the burning of coal. Because you have established a demand for electricity at the lowest cost possible, they have to produce and deliver coal to the power plant. Something similar occurs with the delivery of gasoline to the consumer.
Environmental risks occur during the delivery of energy to the consumer. I’d rather reduce the environmental impacts where I can. So for now, that means pipelines. Until the public is ready to pay for the requisite infrastructure to replace fossil fuels whenever we need energy.
Yesterday it came out that DAPL found four rock cairns along the route on Oct 17th. These cairns were often used to mark burial sites. This is along the route that the North Dakota State Historic Preservation Office and the North Dakota PSC had said that there were no cultural sites. I blame the ND SHPO and the ND PSC for destruction of cultural sites just as much as I blame DAPL. These agencies are supposed to protect these areas. They are not doing their job.
I don’t buy the claim that pipelines are safer than rail transportation of crude oil. I have never seen any figures to back that up.
I have seen figures as to which mode of transportation has more spills though. The Pipeline Hazardous Materials Safety Administration has figures that, barrel for barrel, pipelines leak more oil than does rail transportation. In addition this site states that in case of a spill only about 15% of the oil is ever recovered.
Doc, my obvious point is that NO, “oil spills when they occur tend to be more concentrated and therefore pose a localized risk… [you ameliorate for some reason]”.
Interstate pollution occurs from under-stream, under ice pipeline crossings. Yellowstone river pollution travelled at least 80 miles recently fouling both shores and the river bottom(eventually) and wildlife and surface water water users (irrigation, domestic, municipal use). Imagine every square foot of Oahe reservoir 200 mile length polluted by a high pressure under stream/under-ice/undetected spill, as did occur on the Yellowstone. Oahe out flow would likely be shut down ar Pierre so Rounds’ residence would be saved (tongue in cheek). When, not if…. is when this interstate, not local damage would occur. Guess who will pay for it? Mostly middle class taxpayers. Not GE, the penultimate nuclear power plant designer. Not the pipeline owner or vendors who would likely be bankrupted by the liability allowing them to move on in their corporate existence like Brohm, for example.
Doc, its a false equivalency, or a dog whistle to keep touting that protesters cars, or bloggers use of electricity is hypocritical. apples to oranges, pennies to thousand dollar bills, hundreds of thousands of dollars, or even millions. geez.
law enforcement up there’s additional unbudgeted county costs to taze protesters has been $4 million just yesterday’s reports say.
It used to cost me $12 to drive to Ft. Yates. My electric bill is less than $20 monthly. I have more infrastructure than most of these “middle class” 1000 or so folks “from cali” camped up there by the burned out bridge. :)
Mr. Seamans, the reports in are clear that rail is the safest way to transfer the oil now that the tanker cars are built to different standards than they were. Trains are able to deliver the product where it is needed for further production and delivery.
Doc, mere breathing leaves a carbon footprint so your argument is unknown.
Looks like North Dakota has gone typical red state and now wants taxpayers to pay for their failures of this pipeline blunder. They are like the camel’s nose, once inside the tent, we are gonna be stuck with more failures.
Where are the nominees on the DAPL? crickets…from both… Meanwhile, the Chicago Tribune tells us of the dangers of these pipelines. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-oil-pipeline-leaks-20150522-story.html We should all be protectors and protesters of these very dangerous distributions systems that are so prone to failure.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-and-clinton-are-both-ignoring-standing-rock-and_us_5818f772e4b01fffa751fa53
Leslie,
We can argue about the level of or type of environmental impact. But you can sleep at night knowing that my point is not that your blogging impact is as big as that from a pipeline leak.
The point was that the choices made in the delivery of that electricity to you have consequences. Similarly, there are choices we make that impact the method of delivery of fuel to the gas station, including the shutdown of pipelines.
A better solution would be to develop a “pipeline-free” set of technologies, such as electric vehicles powered by carbon-free solar, wind, and nuclear.
Jerry, yes…our breathing also contributes. Grudznick may have an opinion as to whether we need to also wear special pants to reduce methane emissions ;^). The question is really what carbon dioxide levels (and methane for that matter) can be treated as the natural background. 400 parts per million and up is likely not the natural background.
Doc-if you head to Denver, know Budweiser Ft. Collins is now pioneering trucking its beer with driverless trucks, making the way for future electric gasoline triple-trailer driverless trucks, as u suggest. should be fun.
The argument against electric trucks has always been the technology. Natural gas has been pushed as a replacement to diesel.
But if they can deliver the electricity on an on-going basis (perhaps by induction coil under the road or in some guiderails), then electricity can work.
From the smartest one in any room. Our President Obama, in his first public remarks on the controversy, revealed that the Army Corps of Engineers “is examining whether there are ways to reroute this pipeline.” ~ NYTimes
Breathing has always been a problem for some. They have found that as they are bent over, they can simply grab both shoulders and pull straight down to remove their heads from their _____. It is then somewhat surprising on how little oxygen it takes to breathe clear and even more astounding the lack of carbon emitted. Life is funny like that.
I have no problem with a re-route if it solves a political problem and/or avoids a water issue.
Mr. Lansing, maybe if they make a U turn and go back where the came from with that pipeline, they will find themselves in Dickenson, North Dakota. There they can refine that oil at the refinery and send it safely down the line via rail to destinations around the country where it is needed.
Of course, there is not so much demand for Bakken oil and the refinery has been operating at a slow pace, but it is open and ready for business. http://www.thedickinsonpress.com/tags/dakota-prairie-refinery/
So then, why do we need this dangerous pipeline? Why do we need to take the chance of polluting one of the greatest rivers on our planet for oil that we do not need?
We apparently need the oil. 80% of the energy that we use comes from fossil fuels. And I don’t see a whole lot of cars around here that run on just electricity.
I guess you can argue with the newspaper doc, they reported the fact and you cannot handle it.
No sense choosing up sides and stringing this thread out. It’s Cory’s final argument week and I’m pretty darn impressed. Aren’t you? ?
So America doesn’t run on gasoline today???
Porter, Pres. Obama also said we’ll just let this “play out” while Native Americans are being brutalized by Corporate and Government THUGS. I have lost faith in him. He should intervene now so that the militarization at the behest of a private corporation gets shut down now! HRC and her campaign are worthless on this issue. If environmental issues and climate change are of importance to you, then a Clinton presidency will not help at all. Worthless.
Meanwhile our precious natural resources and clean water are being poisoned by these “leaders”.
Your platitudes about National Democratic Leaders don’t help!
Yeah, we get your point Leo. Didn’t see you toss in ol punkin head though. Look, the administration is doing what it can on this. There are a lot of things that are not shared with you because they need to be done on a more calm field of play. I have always had confidence in President Obama and will have it always. I was kind of thinking that Clinton should address this and then I thought about it and said that it is not her call to make nor is it punkin heads. This is to delicate to just yap about.
Keep calm man, it will all be taken care of.
Doc, your funny man, not to serious about anything, good deal.
Jerry, President Obama has done wonders for the people of Flint, Michigan. Forgive me if I sound cynical and skeptical!
Jerry, Trump is not President and does not wield power – President Obama is and does, and is doing nothing to stop the brutalization of Native Americans. I have a problem with that!
The drawing board plan is to route it way south and then cross above the water. Sounds logical and workable.
Leo, your forgiven
Kristi Noem receives donations from Warren Kelcy, the CEO of Energy Transfer Partners. $2,500 in 2014 according to OpenSecrets.org Apparently, Mr. Warren and his PACs have been contributing widely in ND and SD State House races.
https://www.facingsouth.org/2016/09/meet-texas-billionaire-and-gop-donor-behind-north-dakota-pipeline-controversy
Good find Leo. All of this goes to the fact that wealthy patrons have purchased legislators in fly over states that have access to great mineral wealth of one kind or another. By purchasing legislators in both the state houses and congressional seats, they guarantee sure votes for their agendas. NOem, Thune and the other guy are consistent with this thinking as they have never had a thought among them that would ever be considered legislating. I wonder if ol Warren puts his money in the trust fund that Daugaard helped put together here that protects them against paying taxes.
US Army Corps of Engineers does not know whether Energy Transfer Partners has laid pipe on US Army Corps of Engineer land because there are no observers. Neither does the agency know whether what they are saying is Corps land is actually treaty land. Great reporting by Jordan Chariton of TYT Politics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOYibpjd8ME
What a surprise, Leo-NOT!