Like Fed Chairman Jerome Powell, Minneapolis Fed President Neel Kashkari says we’ll be fighting coronavirus and the concomitant economic downturn for a year or more:
“We’re in the equivalent of an economic war and a health war,” Kashkari said, which may last a year or more. And a lot of families and businesses will need help [“2 National Experts on the Economic and Health Crisis in America,” MPR News, 2020.05.18].
Unlike Governor Kristi Noem, Kashkari we can’t sit around waiting for the pandemic and recession to fix themselves; we need to act as a community through government to help each other:
“We need more checks … directly to people,” he added. “This affects not only people, but their communities.”
People are in this bad situation through no fault of their own, Kashkari emphasized. “They did not take foolish risks” [MPR, 2020.05.18].
Unlike Mayor Travis Schaunaman, Kashkari says we should be listening to health experts first, not business leaders:
The pandemic is affecting wide swaths of American industry, Kashkari said. “But we do have to make sure we preserve the productive capacity of our economy. And that’s uniquely Congress’s ability to do that.”
“Stock pickers are wildly guessing” about what will happen, Kashkari said. “I want to listen to health experts, rather than investors” [MPR, 2020.05.18].
Hey, Joe Biden! I know you promised us a female VP, but I won’t hold it against you if you change your mind and nominate Kashkari.
“Hey, Joe Biden! I know you promised us a female VP, but I won’t hold it against you if you change your mind and nominate Kashkari.”
I will. Put Kashkari in the Treasury or Commerce department.
I’m all for females in all levels of government and any other jobs they want, but just because I like when people get worked up, it would be funny if joe picked a trans person born a male who transitioned. I would like to watch the far left crazies struggle with whether they should be upset or thrilled haha
“Health experts” recommended we destroy our economy and eliminate a decade of job growth to slow down an illness with an infection fatality rate that begins with .0 for those under 70.
Why are we continuing to defer to them? They got it wrong — completely wrong. And instead of admitting it and changing course, now we are doubling down and shifting to “lockdown until there’s a cure.” WTF?
Government money, our money, 10 Trillion total is what we will need and what we will get to right this economy. As this author says, to basically stop with the hand wringing and write the damn checks. The health experts need to also kick in the ACA to provide healthcare for all. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/05/we-can-prevent-a-great-depression-itll-take-10-trillion/611749/
Neal, here is your leader bragging about the 93,000 Killed in Action as a badge of honor for him. Talk about a WTF moment, take a listen to an encyclopedia salesman peddling crap you don’t need. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52733220
So, when you are in the emergency room, dying, and the doctor comes by and you tell him that you think you have cancer and he says nope, you’re dying from the Covid19, you can go, thank god it wasn’t the cancer that got me. High on Adderall, of course he is.
Coronavirus Cases:
1,571,131
Deaths:
93,558
That is at least 31 WTC disasters rolled into one and the count is going higher every day. To add to whAT Jerry said, if you are dying of covid you can’t sue the doc for fraud because, unlike phony human drumpf, covid is not a hoax.
Neal is blowing more ignorant smoke. Nice try, Neal, but everyone sees that the Emperor has no clothes.
First, health professionals recommended various strategies for flattening the curve to keep the health care networks from being completely overwhelmed and causing excess deaths due to the inability to access health care. As we’ve seen, the measures they recommended worked. Only in New York City did we surpass the health care systems capacity. Second, these measures were designed to minimize deaths from COVID-19 and buy time until an effective vaccine or treatment or other medical interventions could be developed. That has been less successful, but there has been good progress made and clinical trials started.
Republican leaderes are NOT deferring to the best science. These pro-life, anti-science heros are giving us more deaths. It’s not quite up to Hitler’s approach, but it’s a modern day holocaust, the sort of “carnage” Trump promised to end. Fooled you, Neal. Let’s be clear. As anyone can see by listening to him, as hard as that is, Trump’s leadership has been chaotic, as much dependent on voodoo medicine as by expertise and science.
Neal, my advise for you: follow Trump and take some hydroxycholorquine. Have a great heart attack.
Neal, they got it right. We destroy our economy by letting a disease run unchecked to kill two million Americans, overwhelm our hospitals, and create much longer-lasting economic impacts.
Neel Kashkari recognizes this. He recognizes that the economy depends on public health. If a disease is not controlled, we can’t go out and spend anyway, and there will be fewer people to spend and produce things to spend on. The short-term harm of this shutdown is necessary and better in the long-run than whatever radical selfish approach commenter Neal thinks is better. Coronavirus is real. We’ve taken real and necessary steps to check it, and we will have to continue to take more difficult steps to prevent it from getting worse.
I continue to defer to health experts because they are experts. They have more knowledge than I do. They have more knowledge than a one-name comment yahoo spouting off about his personal preferences without scientific backing.
They also have knowledge that’s proven to save lives.
King Covid and Queen NOem’s coverage of the republican health plan, is at the morgue. They’re both very proud of their grisly numbers, well done ghouls.
I think it is a fair question to ask: exactly what level of governmental interference with personal liberty is appropriate under exactly what types of national threats or emergencies?
Like most people on this blog, I also believe doctors and scientists more than I believe any politician, but we don’t criminalize everything doctors and scientists tell us are going to kill us. Let me re-phrase for clarity – we can’t “defer” every law to health care professionals. So if we can’t defer every law, which ones? And to what extent?
Consider where the curbs and gutters are: if a pandemic is projected by a majority of health experts to kill 100 million people, I think most would agree that governmental restriction of liberty is acceptable. How about 50 million? Sure, that’s still a whole lot of people. So jump to an extreme. How about 50 people? Hmm. I don’t think we would be OK with locking down the country if one person in each state was projected to get sick and die from a new virus, even if the health experts say, “look, if we lock the country down for 6 months, we will cut that number from 50 dead down to 40 dead. That’s 10 families who will be happy to have their loved one around longer!” So between those extremes of 50 million dead and 50 dead is the line we are all comfortable walking. There are over 300 million people in this country. Of course there is a variety of opinions as to where the line sits.
It’s a weird time in this country that people aren’t even able to agree that a problem is incredibly difficult. Radicals right wingers and radical libbies are screaming at each other how obvious it is what the right thing to do is, but it isn’t. Not even close.
As long as the government is paying the bills, they can and should call the shots. If nothing is safe in the eyes of the consumer, why would they want to endanger themselves any more than they have to by sheltering in place? We here in South Dakota, are already seeing the uptick of this virus even with the limited testing we do now. Man, we ain’t even close to any kind of leveling and we already have 100,000 Killed In Action so we are not talking about 40 or 50 dead folks, we are in a pandemic.
Here is a fair question Ryan, if you’re so concerned about the limits to freedom, why don’t you take a worker’s place at Smithfield or Demkota? Seriously, all of the freedom first folks should take a run at doing something for the country and work the lines in these meat processing places. It might be a very good education and you may learn a new language on top of that, take that Rosetta Stone.
jerry, you are a symptom of exactly what I am talking about. If you don’t think there is a conversation worth having here, you are as blind as trump. Your absolutism is ridiculous and let me prove it:
You say “As long as the government is paying the bills, they can and should call the shots.” So that means the federal government should either order lockdowns, or the states should, or both? What about if they disagree? What an obviously wrong statement there. Also, how about people on federal assistance during non-pandemic times. Since the government is “paying the bills,” should the government be able to tell those people what to do day in and day out? Of course not. What about the millions and millions of people who have not received a penny from the government during this sickness? The government isn’t paying their bills.
Next, I agree that we are in a pandemic. I know it’s a lot more than 40 or 50 people who have died. I was posing a question to determine what is an appropriate response and what isn’t, because not all health emergencies are the same, so it’s reasonable to consider when government intervention is necessary and appropriate and when it isn’t.
Third, suggesting I go work at smithfield or demkota because I think it’s reasonable to discuss governmental intrusion into americans’ lives is a super dumb “gotcha” game, dude. I might as well suggest you go work in a russian gulag because you sound like a mindless sheep who thinks we should all do what papa trump says. Besides, I wouldn’t know the first thing about where to make the cuts to butcher a pig, so instead I’ll keep my normal job in healthcare.
You should go find a copy of the US constitution and apologize to it.
This pandemic is knew and no one knows how bad it will get or if it will get better. Better to err on the side of caution and protect citizens from themselves and their idiotic right wing beliefs.
Number 1, trump/trumpian republicans caused the deaths of at least 100,000 United States citizens, clearly that is a fact. trump/trumpian republicans by doing nothing and advising that this was a hoax, helped to bring about the death and destruction of our NATO allies who depend on our leadership. As this is clearly what has happened then it their job to make the survivors whole again by spending the money needed to right this ship they sunk, as much as it takes “paying the bills”.
Number 2, you agree we’re in a pandemic, but you fail to understand what you agree with.
Number 3, No “gotcha dude”, just facts. Most of us think that it’s more important for us to have a damn pork chop than it is to give a care about the dangers involved in putting that on our table. So, as you ponder about 40 or 50 deaths, let me remind you of what’s at stake and that is the very lives of the downtrodden that we take for granted that feed our sorry arse’s. My point was that if you feel mistreated by the rules of the game, then you clearly think of yourself as being morally higher in the caste system than those that risk their and their families lives each hour they are working at Smithfield and Demkota or any other s#:+ hole company that disregards their well being for profit.
I don’t know what you do in healthcare, and I don’t care. I just thank you and tell you that you ain’t even started getting busy yet. trump’s genie is out of the bottle now and we will be probably dependent on others to come up with a solution to control this plague. Meanwhile, no testing and more Killed In Action. The carnage continues.
Jerry:
Forget the ACA. It is a bailout for health insurance corporations. We can provide universal healthcare via Medicare. Stop thinking like Pelosi and Biden. We can do better than that.
Jerry, what a bunch of nonsense, seriously. I agree we are in a pandemic. That’s a word with a real definition, and the definition has nothing to do with lockdowns or blaming people for the body count or anything else you seem to think it means.
As for stupid trump, he’s definitely not to blame for every dead covid patient. He botched a lot of things and had he made better decisions, many of those dead people might still be alive, but you lose all credibility suggesting he’s 100% at fault. Nobody anywhere would have supported locking down the whole country before anybody in America got sick, and that’s a fact. And even then, half of the country wouldn’t follow the restrictions imposed, because that’s people for ya. So saying “it’s all trump’s fault” is an obvious sign of someone not thinking critically whatsoever. This is another symptom of exactly what I’m saying. People are so determined to blame the opposing political party they spew complete baloney. All of the rational people in this country are moderate and that’s because almost nothing is as black and white as you radical left and radical right nutcases pretend to believe.
Further proof of your blind polarization is your guessing what you think my opinions are about the restrictions imposed. I never said they shouldn’t have existed. I never said they should be cancelled. I never said anything at all complaining about their impact on me. I have a toddler and a pregnant wife to keep as safe as I can, so legal restrictions or not, I am personally being more cautious than most, which has indeed been a burden, but a burden I accept as reasonable under the circumstances.
My pregnant wife is a nurse, too, so that’s concerning as well. We are reliant on grocers and other retailers, including the food supply chain, which is concerning. I fully understand that when I have to run out for milk and bread and meat and produce that I am potentially risking my life and the lives of my family members. I understand that a lot of people had to report to work facing those same risks to keep my power on, and butcher the meat I eat, and stock the shelves, and many of the other things that make my life possible. I am well aware, and I take none of that for granted. This is indeed a crazy time, but in my opinion rationality and civil conversation in crazy times is even more important than in seemingly calm times.
You seem to think that because I said it’s reasonable to discuss the extent of governmental authority and its reliance on doctors for legislative direction that I must automatically support dismissing both governmental authority and medical advice. That’s not what I said or what I think. I would encourage you to read more carefully, especially if its a topic you are so passionate about.
Jason, true that, but you have to build on something like the ACA to get to the promised land. The loss of healthcare coverage by employees from their employer sponsored healthplans, is the lighting of the fuse. Pelosi is doing just fine. Biden is building day by day.
Ryan, your question is answered repeatedly in setting environmental standards. Yes, we can and do defer most of these issues to scientific research. For example, water quality standards are set to protect the health of human beings. They are set by law to be below the levels that a lifetime of exposure to various parameters will not kill or impair the health of human beings. These standards are based on scientific research. This is how we do most such standards. The goal in all of these standards is often even more stringent than not killing anyone. It is not to sicken anyone.
Legally there is no question about what the line is. The line is set to protect human life and health. And there are even standards to assure that fish and wildlife can survive, as well.
Also, jerry’s point about who works at meatpacking plants is relevant to this question. We don’t see many white folks who are out there demanding that other people go to work volunteering to go to work at meatpacking plants. This issue is very similar to the requirements to assess the “environmental justice” of siting certain facilities. Why do certain polluting plants get put in minority communities, and not adjacent to the CEOs property? Who gets to die to put a goddam pork chop on your plate? If YOU aren’t willing to work where there is such piss poor worker safety that you are likely to die, don’t expect someone else to.
Seriously, in a pandemic? ” we can’t “defer” every law to health care professionals. So if we can’t defer every law, which ones? And to what extent?” All laws, pertaining to this pandemic, must be decided by health care professionals, that’s why we have them interviewed after King Covid blathers. A pandemic demands leadership from those that understand what a pandemic actually is. This ain’t no outbreak, this ain’t no foolin around. This is a plague, the medieval kind of killer. There are not enough leeches to bleed us through this thing.
Who do you think Jerome Powell listens to regarding this pandemic and its monetary and economic toll? The FED listens to the healthcare professionals, the educated not the charlatans. trump broke the United States, it’s up to government to patch it back together with a whole lot of our money to make it whole for the survivors.
Donald, nobody should be forced to work at any job – whether during a pandemic or otherwise – because that’s slavery and slavery is bad.
And of course we have safety standards for all sorts of things in life, one of the many benefits of living in a modern country. People still get sick and die all the time, and people still get each other sick and kill each other. People die in occupational accidents. People die in their cars. People die in grain bins. People die from a lot of things. Most of those things aren’t illegal. We create, enforce, and modify safety standards based on risk every single day. My point is this pandemic is a situation that needs to be viewed and considered in the same fashion. So… we agree that it’s a good idea to lock down the country if 2 million people will otherwise die, right? Do we agree that we shouldn’t lock the country down for annual flu season, which kills tens of thousands of people every year? If so, where exactly is the line between those two agreed upon examples? And whatever number you think justifies the government forcing you to close your business, what scientific evidence suggests that is a high enough body count to warrant such authority? Any answer you give is arbitrary because there is no good answer. There is no magic number of dead people to say here’s the line where the government should close restaurants, or hair salons, or anything else. It’s a tough call. That’s my point. In a tough call, varying opinions are certain to exist, and having the conversation is not only valid it’s necessary.
Jerry doubles down on his position that “All laws, pertaining to this pandemic, must be decided by health care professionals” haha good thing all health care professionals always have the same opinion, right? That should make this easier. Good thing all scientific evidence and computerized modeling of expected death tolls and hospitalization rates have been identical, right? Nice and easy, right? And remind me again when exactly we would dare to turn that authority back over to the government? When we have a vaccine? It won’t save everyone, that’s a guarantee. How about if it’s 98% effective? Or 85%? Or 50%? What’s the magic number of permissible dead people versus impermissible dead people? Is it 100 more dead people than those who die of influenza? Or 1,000 more? Or 10,000 more? And who gets to be the moral authority for that decision? Be specific, because this is real life and not just some radical fantasy world where nobody really needs a job, and where we are all content with china loaning us cash to sit on couches that were made in Mexico and upholstered in Honduras while we watch teevees that were made in Taiwan or scroll endlessly through facebook on phones made by children in Korea.
According to the NY Times, this is what Medical Moron is responsible for:
“If the United States had begun imposing social distancing measures one week earlier than it did in March, about 36,000 fewer people would have died in the coronavirus outbreak, according to new estimates from Columbia University disease modelers.
“And if the country had begun locking down cities and limiting social contact on March 1, two weeks earlier than most people started staying home, the vast majority of the nation’s deaths — about 83% — would have been avoided, the researchers estimated.
“Under that scenario, about 54,000 fewer people would have died by early May.”
is.gd/IWWU8W (paywall)
Ryan. Make your point. Move on. Trans VP; or medical professionals advising Trump where to lead your nation through the “war” (see that?) of a world pandemic? Not “merely” the treatable annual evolving flu strains. Trump is clearly unable to lead, obvious to educated people around the world, not just the “radical libbies” trying to stop him and his Republican obstructionists. Similar to essential serviceworkers like meatpackers forced to risk their lives because Trump doesn’t understand how to utilize the WWII production acts. Too, how reasonable are your condemnations of “radical” posters you have been attacking here? Otherwise, like the Federal judge said: “STFU” (:
leslie, what makes you the crossing guard of the blog comment section? I tried to make my point but zero people have responded to my actual point, including you. Instead, you all keep rephrasing unrelated cnn headlines without any critical thinking. If you don’t want to read or respond to my comments, don’t – but it’s going to take a lot more than your incomplete and incoherent sentence fragments to stop me from encouraging people to use their brains.
And trump trump trump. Jezum crow, we all know he’s a moron. We all would like to see him exit the oval office asap. We all know he botched the covid response and pretty much everything else since he was elected. My point wasn’t about trump in the least, but people can’t stop talking about him because they just like to point at a boogeyman and dodge straightforward questions.
So I will ask again, and nobody will have an answer but everyone will pretend I’m somehow a trump supporter for asking: what is the level of emergency appropriate for suspending national liberty and deferring policy making to doctors? If the flu isn’t enough, and covid is enough, where is the line between those?
You guys keep acting like this is easy, so put your well-reasoned thoughts where your catchphrases are and see if you can muddle through some critical thinking and come up with an idea of your own rather than trying to repeat what you just heard somebody else say.
Seems like we have vaccines for different types of flu and pneumonia. We don’t have on e for covid-19 and scientists don’t have a clew as to what to expect from c-virus.
As bad as covid is, it is made much worse by a lack of leadership in the kremlin annex. As an alleged potus, drumpf stinks!
mike says “Seems like we have vaccines for different types of flu and pneumonia.”
YES! We sure do have flu shots! Yet the flu and pneumonia still kill MILLIONS of people every year. MILLIONS!
So…anybody that is still following along…please tell me how many people are allowed to die from a diseases without requiring lockdowns? And where did that magic number come from?
If you can’t answer that, you can’t suggest that people are crazy or selfish or ignorant or heartless for wanting to know where to strike a balance between freedom and safety.
For the love of gawd people! Think one layer deeper than your television tells you to! We might be able to have adult conversations and deal with adult issues a little better.
Sadly, We get your point Ryan. We’ve heard that same point from Queen NOem and from the Covid King. Yes, there is a flu shot and not all people take that flu shot, just as there is a measles inoculation and not everyone takes that and then we have an outbreak, and in the case of the Swine Flu (possibly from the US or Mexico), thousands (not MILLIONS) die each year. “MILLIONS”, not thousands more would die if there wasn’t a flu shot though. As your arithmetic is kind of lacking, thousands are less than a hundred thousand or in this Covid unleashed by the Covid King, several hundred thousand Killed in Action before it’s run it’s course here in the United States. Kashkari is correct, we must put in trillions to keep the recession small or the depression big. This is not about your job security in the healthcare field, it’s about keeping all of us from a Depression in addition to a runaway pandemic.
Not only in American slaughterhouses, but around the world…except for Asian countries that were taught a valuable lesson during the first SARS outbreak, there are severe issues in house. So as Mr. Kashkari says more or less, big government must take the necessary action to correct these shortcomings through this pandemic and prepare for the next. Food supplies and their supply chains, must be utilized to higher standards with higher paying jobs, and in the cases of migrant workers, sanitary living conditions for the workers and their families. We’re seeing that now in Europe starting to materialize dealing with migrant workers from Romania and Bulgaria, but not soon enough.
“More than 100 virus infections in French slaughterhouse. More than 100 people have tested positive for the novel coronavirus at a slaughterhouse in western France, the regional health authorities said Wednesday. The cases follow coronavirus outbreaks at meat plants not only in France but also in Germany, Spain, Australia, the United States and Brazil – where people tend to work in close proximity.”
We have a long way to go, but with strong monetary governmental intervention, we can work towards a solution to our needs.
Drama much, Ryan? Maybe next year scientists will have a handle on this problem. Maybe not. Until then err on the side of caution. People with flu and pneumonia are not generally running around in public infecting others. They stay at home or in the hospital, most likely in bed. And still they die, but the death toll would escalate if they went to church or shopping at malls or even going to school while sick.
It doesn’t take much intelligence to see that.
jerry, my math is correct. The CDC reports between 12k-60k flu deaths per year. Pneumonia kills over 2 million people per year. If you add 12,000 and 2 million, that is MILLIONS!
But again and again and again, you dodge the question. I am not talking about how much of china’s money the government should spend. I am not talking about the working conditions in meat plants. Those topics are important and should be discussed, but that isn’t the question.
Although I am sure none of you will answer it again because you aren’t as sure of yourself as you pretend to be…but the question is – how many deaths are allowed from a sickness before the government should force businesses to close, restrict individual liberty related to intrastate and interstate travel, or impose any of the other restrictions that are now or were in place due to covid-19?
wait, mike…do you believe that people with the flu spontaneously create the virus within their own bodies? It’s transmitter person-to-person, just like covid. That’s the point. The flu is a transmissible sickness and it is legal to have the flu and roam free among society. Covid-19 is a transmissible sickness with a higher death rate and infection rate, I agree with that. I also agree some restrictions and a change in how we behave is smart policy to limit the deaths and hospitalization rates. But to what end? When is the number of dead people low enough? That is the question nobody is willing to try to answer because it’s easier to just blame trump and bury your empty heads in the sand.
Again, whatever the healthcare officials deem to be appropriate for business social distancing whatever guidelines they have as protocol. Health officials, not political officials. Follow the Asian countries lead as their healthcare officials seem to have set the standards. Look at Taiwan and South Korea that advised the CDC and then you get the picture.
Ryan, the few times I have had the flu and both times I have had pneumonia, not once did I feel like skipping the light fandango in public. It was hard as heck just to stay in bed with flu stomach problems. With pneumonia I didn’t ever want to leave the bed. Every joint in my body ached and laying quietly without moving was a slice of heaven.
well jerry I couldn’t disagree with you more, but I made my case and you ignored the questions I posed, so I will consider my attempt to have an actual discussion on the merits unwelcome. That’s fine. My daughter is 4 and she just likes to live in blissful ignorance of the real world, too. I hope she grows out of it, but obviously some don’t.
mike – yeah I’ve been sick, too. It’s miserable, man. Every day that I wake up healthy, I feel very fortunate. My best friend died in a car accident when I was in high school because somebody else ran a stop sign. That was miserable. My brother died in a car accident when I was 22. That was life changing. Life can be overwhelmingly wonderful and indescribably terrible at times. As the dalai lama might say – that’s life, dude. BUT when is the level of misery and death high enough to enact laws prohibiting people from engaging in otherwise legal travel, recreation, commerce, or social gathering? I don’t know how many more ways I can ask the question that nobody wants to answer.
I get it – some of you disagree with me that this conversation is worth having. I just think it’s scary for our population not to question something that impacts hundreds of millions of people. You guys are acting like I am shoving a solution down your throat that you don’t like, but I don’t know what the right answer is here, either. I am just trying to discuss the actual situation, like all government authority and policies should be discussed.
Kashkari says it all. You don’t have to agree on anything. Facts prove that trump/trumpian republicans, like EB5 Short Rounds, have proven a failure of leadership and are flailing around while 100,000 Killed in Action Americans lost their lives because of failure at the highest levels and not paying attention to healthcare voices.
“Economic historians may date the start of the Asian century to May 2020, when most Asian economies bounced back to full employment while the West languished in coronavirus lockdown. Asia has emerged as an economic zone as closely integrated as the European Union, increasingly insulated from economic shocks from the United States or Europe.
Google’s daily data on workplace mobility uses smartphone location to determine the number of people going to work – by far the most accurate and up-to-date available reading on economic activity. As of May 13, Taiwan, South Korea and Vietnam were back to normal levels. Japan and Germany had climbed back to 20% below normal. The US, France and the UK remain paralyzed. Google can’t take readings in China, but the available evidence indicates that China is on the same track as Taiwan, South Korea and Vietnam.”
This is what happens when you have the discipline to listen to what the health officials are telling you, that you must shut down and test test test. Asia is not out of the woods yet, but with the social distancing, the wearing of masks, and the tracking ability to trace issues, they will keep advancing their economies and their healthcare.
Ryan
BUT when is the level of misery and death high enough to enact laws prohibiting people from engaging in otherwise legal travel, recreation, commerce, or social gathering?
For covid-19, the answer you seek is zero deaths before drumpf should have enacted shutdown measures. Until someone somewhere gets a scientifically proven handle on this virus, figures out what it does to human bodies, finds out the ways it is spread and finds a cure that is most effective in most people, state initiated shut-ins, social distancing and other measures should be the normal.
I have enjoyed the discussion between Ryan, Jerry, mfi, Donald and leslie, and will offer my two cents worth in an effort to try to answer Ryan’s question, which started out as:
The last form of the question evolved somewhat into:
In its first form the question asked for two answers – (1) identify the level of government interference with “otherwise legal” activity that is appropriate, and (2) identify the trigger that justifies that particular level of interference. The latest iteration of the question, however, seemed to focus only on identifying the trigger for government interference with any “otherwise legal” activity.
First, it doesn’t appear that either question has a factual answer. Rather, each seems to rely on a policy judgment, which perhaps is Ryan’s point.
Moreover, in situations comparable to the Covid virus we have no way of knowing beforehand the “exact” number of fatalities that can be prevented by enacting laws that interfere with “otherwise legal travel, recreation, commerce, or social gathering.” Hence there is no way to identify beforehand some “effective rate of misery” as a trigger or hurdle before we want our government to restrict “otherwise legal” activities. Again, such a determination is simply a matter of judgment by those who make policies that interfere with “otherwise legal” activities.
Second, the questions seem a bit irrational, given the fundamental nature of any government. It is a primary government function to restrict “otherwise legal” activities in an effort to protect us from each other. Carrying and shooting guns is perfectly legal, yet we restrict when and where people can carry and shoot their guns. We don’t depend on a particular number of people being shot or killed before we decide to restrict the “otherwise legal” activity of shooting our guns, rather, we adopt restrictions that many agree upon even though some others strenuously object.
Governing is not a perfect science nor is predicting when an “otherwise legal” activity may harm one or more innocent people. It is a judgment call to be made by those who are chosen to govern, or those that have forcibly taken over the governing function.
Ryan also asked:
In deciding what laws to enact to address any situation relating to the public health and safety, I would think a rational policy maker would give great weight to, if not defer to, the opinions of health care workers concerning laws relating to circumstances within their particular factual expertise.
jerry – breaking news! (check out the link!) The public health director, with input from the chief medical officers at avera and sanford, says today that covid numbers are under control enough to repeal the sioux falls restrictive ordinace.
Does that mean what I think it means!? Those sure sound like health professionals to me! You know, the ones that you say should call ALL the shots and make ALL the laws? Or did you mean health professionals should be in charge only if they happen to agree with you…?
https://www.keloland.com/keloland-com-original/franken-says-numbers-favor-repealing-of-covid-19-restrictions-in-sioux-falls/
Pennington County just hit 100 cases, that we know of. Tally’s and Delmonico’s restaurants have 3 employees with Covid19 so gwaaad only knows who’s been touched with this. Soon find out though. Stay healthy out there kiddo’s and keep your distance while wearing your masks.
bcb – i always appreciate your insight. You are correct that my question morphed, but only slightly, as I had to keep re-phrasing it since people wanted to sidestep. I tried to keep each of my several versions of the question as close to the original as possible for consistency.
And you are exactly right – the question doesn’t have a factual answer. I said that, too. I said this is a tough situation. I said we should expect varied opinions. This conclusion you drew is the exact point I was making. There is no line to cross, but it absolutely makes sense to have a discussion of the real world consequences of protection from illness versus restriction of liberty. The radical stance that some people have taken regarding lockdowns, which is “one death is too many,” is just patently ridiculous. Each death is sad, no doubt. I sympathize with the folks who have lost loved ones, just as I do when somebody loses a family member to gun violence, or war, or any other disease. But we all engage in legal behavior every day that has real, actual, proven potential to kill us or kill somebody else, so “one death is too many” is just pandering to the most fearful and polarized members of the population. I was hoping to have a discussion about where people think the real balance is between safety and liberty. This is a classic philosophical exercise. Everyone instead wanted to assign blame, which even if true does not address the issue.
You reference guns. Yes we restrict gun use, which I believe is reasonable. Yet people still kill each other with guns. So we have analyzed the risk of guns against the liberty of being able to own them. Cigarettes kill people, I’m told. Some doctors would probably love if cigarettes were illegal. Fast food kills people. Parents kill their kids by dodging vaccines. So my point is the baseline for prohibiting nonviolent behavior is not Zero Deaths under any other circumstance. So where is the baseline for covid? Or HIV? Or tuberculosis? Or influenza? These things are always evolving situations and we should respond accordingly. Sometimes, people will die from preventable illnesses. Sometimes its 10,000 or so a year like the flu. In this case, the risk was substantial so a lot of policy makers took a better-safe-than-sorry stance. I think a lot of that was reasonable, too. However, I think it’s a good idea to question when those better-safe-than-sorry policies would become more restrictive than beneficial in totality. America would be a lot safer without alcohol, but I believe prohibition was repealed. It is impossible to have a society without the risk of untimely death.
I agree with you, again, that smart policy makers would seek input from healthcare professionals about issue of public health. I disagree with jerry’s idea of doctors making laws. I disagree with mike’s idea that the country should be locked down until a cure is found. I didn’t understand leslie, as usual, but I’m sure I would disagree with whatever those comments were supposed to mean.
Gosh, I hadn’t even seen this until today – but apparently hundreds and hundreds of doctors signed on to a letter to trump on tuesday providing their professional medical opinions regarding the “exponentially growing negative health consequences of the national shutdown.”
Jerry, what do we do now!? These hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of docs say that the shutdown was a “mass casualty incident.” Jeez. That sounds scary. Pandemics are mass casualty incidents, too, right? What in the world do we do! Somebody ask these docs to write some laws already!
(link to the letter below – i have never heard of the website Disrn before so I don’t know their stance on anything, but feel free to ignore any commentary and just read the letter)
https://disrn.com/news/mass-casualty-incident-600-doctors-sign-letter-to-trump-calling-for-end-to-coronavirus-lockdowns
I guess there are only 600 hundred doctors in the United States. Which one of them do you work for?
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Take a look at South Dakota in these numbers. EB5 Short Rounds is not gonna have a cakewalk if Dan Ahlers has the go to take him on with facts. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/21/1946684/-Death-and-unemployment-are-just-not-popular-reopening-the-country-isn-t-helping-Trump-and-GOP
Kaskkari’s very good look at how things are is the only way we will ever be able to recover for the survivors. We still have almost 20,000 patients in critical care and almost 100.000 Killed in Action. More money and more testing.
jerry, I don’t work for any doctor, sorry. But are you saying these hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of doctors don’t pass your test for being health professionals who should make our laws? Is it because they disagree with you, or did you check their credentials and you have some other criteria that you conveniently didn’t mention earlier…or what’s with the flippin and floppin, man?
mike – thanks for the google assist. I didn’t search for details on the site because I don’t care about the commentary or the opinions of the people who created or maintained the website. I ignored the partisanship and read the letter, as I suggest everyone else should do. If you don’t want to read it on a website with an opposing political point of view, just google something like “600 doctors write letter to trump” or something similar. You’ll likely see it on a lot of other websites. Pick your favorite.
Ryan, The 600 doctors for trump are all proctologist’s. It always helps to be able to stand behind and recognize trump for what he is.
By all means, let’s get more to die….
Last updated: May 21, 2020, 20:47 GMT
United States
Coronavirus Cases:
1,614,591
Deaths:
96,062
drumpf claimed 100k bodies by August. We will surpass that number no later than Sunday night.
If you mean trump is a bunghole, jerry, I agree completely. He has destroyed generations of progress in this country on all sorts of fronts. If I could vote him out of office right now, I would.
I will take your inability to defend your position regarding medical professionals usurping legislative authority as an unconditional surrender on the subject, though.
mike, every one of those deaths is sad and I sympathize with the people who are left to grieve for their loved ones. I think the reality of human mortality makes this conversation difficult for people, and understandably so. It seems heartless to say that if covid killed another half million people, it still wouldn’t be the leading cause of preventable death in this country this year, but that’s a fact. That fact doesn’t diminish the heartache these families are certainly feeling, but their heartache also doesn’t eliminate the reality of the vulnerability of death we all face daily.
Ryan, you make a good case for nobody to do anything because we all will die anyway. Good luck with that. I will at least attempt to follow the guidelines that seem to prevent thousands of unnecessary deaths.
This is my last word on this subject.
From the Hill….
Some of the doctors who signed onto the letter are aligned with a small right-wing medical organization called the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) that has promoted discredited medical theories, and opposes Medicare.
The group opposes mandatory vaccines, has questioned that HIV is the cause of AIDS, and has asserted that former President Barack Obama used “a covert form of hypnosis” to attract support for his 2008 campaign. At one time, its membership included Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) and former Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price.
mike, i have repeatedly said i supported some of the restrictions imposed, and my family and i are being even more cautious than most for several reasons.
you are acting like trump, just making stuff up to suit your desire to make yourself a good guy and make me a bad guy. you are assigning to me thoughts and beliefs i don’t have just because you disagree with me. phooey.
also, doctors who think obama hypnotized people sound kinda wacko. and jerry wants them making all of our laws!
Mike, I think I’ve heard of that bunch before, maybe from the pro-plaguers. It’s hard to believe, or maybe scary to believe that doctors can be wackos. I wonder how many of them still have their licenses? Next time I’m referred to a doc I don’t know, maybe I should ask first if he’s a member of the AAPS. If so, I’ll run the other way! 🤣 🤣 🤣
Thanks for getting the goods on those guys.
you are acting like trump, just making stuff up to suit your desire to make yourself a good guy and make me a bad guy. you are assigning to me thoughts and beliefs i don’t have just because you disagree with me. phooey.
Bulloney! (my latest last word on this subject)
Debbo, some of them doctors listed are actually well respected for their doctoral skills if not for their political leanings.
from Daily Beast….
But while those cities were given breathing room, the two counties with the worst outbreaks in the state—Harris, which includes Houston, and Dallas—will still be forced to move forward with reopening, whether they like it or not. To ensure big-city officials proceed with the plan, Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton’s office went so far as to send letters to leaders in Dallas, Austin, and San Antonio warning that “unlawful” local mask requirements or shelter-in-place orders that go further than the state’s restrictions would be met with legal action.
Down Texas way, the wingnut guv and AG are forcing people to place their lives at risk and of course the victims will not be able to sue for damages when they get sick and die.
Ryan, the issue of balancing safety vs. liberty is indeed an interesting and important practical and philosophical question. For me the answer is first tied to who’s safety is endangered by my exercise of liberty. Previously, I have seen the focus on whether to sacrifice personal liberty in exchange for one’s own personal safety, and have empathized with the thought of Ben Franklin:
But I have always considered this issue to be related to my own personal safety, which I might be willing to subject to substantial danger in exchange for certain liberties.
When it comes to the safety of other people, however, the weight that I would give “safety” over my own personal “liberty” increases exponentially. Indeed, I interpreted some of your previous comments to suggest that perhaps you even share that concern when thinking about the safety of your family in the case of the current Covid 19 pandemic.
If I knew for certain that my own exercise of almost any particular liberty would kill only one innocent person, I would gladly give up that liberty.
Likewise, the nature of the particular liberty in question is an important factor in deciding a proper balance. Some liberties deserve greater weight than other liberties. The liberty of not wearing a face mask seems someone trivial comparing to the danger of unintentionally spreading a virus that will kill even one person.
So the bottom line for me in analyzing the liberty vs. safety issue is a matter of identifying the weight to assign to each and acting accordingly.
If I may bcb, I would like to add this regarding science and healthcare. The amazing story of Greece and how it avoided the Covid so much, it’s open for tourism..safely
https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/l-infectiologue-sotirios-tsiodras-nouvelle-coqueluche-des-grecs-20200320
I guess we r back to ‘ry”. Understand your offense. Crazy radical leftist libbies. That is how trump terrorists and trolls throw out bait here. So both u&wife in medical service. Admirable! Political commentary from those here you reduntantly attack is also service work in an effort by many here well qualified to change policy and law in SD&nationally benefiting the world. None here fear strong opinion.
Measles kills and infects 15 per positive. Flu infects 3 per positive. North of there is this pandemic. State statistics should be x5 or X10, particularly in Republican states. Without leadership information is untrustworthy. BCB about covered, patiently.
Leslie, you aren’t even close. Did you just completely make up those numbers? According to science magazine:
Most of the discussion around the spread of SARS-CoV-2 has concentrated on the average number of new infections caused by each patient. Without social distancing, this reproduction number (R) is about three. But in real life, some people infect many others and others don’t spread the disease at all. In fact, the latter is the norm. The consistent pattern is that the most common number is zero. Most people do not transmit.
Bcb, I’ll respond to your intelligent-as-usual comment when I’m at my computer, typing at length on a phone is more annoying than it’s worth.
Amen.
Citations always available. You don’t actually believe 600 drs were not put up by Trump and Republicans? Pls assume my numbers are correct, otherwise i would not bother.
Chill, “dude”. Or as Goodman also said but did NOT abbreviate: “STFU…!”
Threadgard (C) leslie 2020 (:
Leslie I cited my valid, reputable source. Here it is in more detail for you to ignore because you know you’re full of empty promises:
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/why-do-some-covid-19-patients-infect-many-others-whereas-most-don-t-spread-virus-all
I don’t care if every one of those doctors signing that letter are quacks…it proves my point either way. If they are paid shills or corrupt cronies or any other nefarious types, it proves to jerry and many others that not all docs are necessarily the right people to be making important political and economic decisions. If the docs are all genuine and super reliable and classic, admirable public servants, then the content of the letter proves my point that an analysis of the risks and benefits of lockdowns is an important analysis. Thanks for playing, tho.
And STFU again huh? Nah, bro. How about you shut me up with some evidence to back up the things you made up and then unsuccessfully did your best to type into coherent sentences?
Laurie Garret, Pulitzer Prize Science Journalist, (“Flu” infects 3 per 1 positive. Measles infects 15-18 per 1 positive). I won’t be following Republican-compromised MDs down a Stephen Miller “rabbit hole”. Startalk Podcast 3.8.19@11:00.Skunk woke me! Time to recant just about every aspersion you cast here, bud. Join us in electing sensible honest leadership.
I want the source for covid being “north” of 3 or 15 (r), that’s the piece you made up that’s relevant here.
Join you in electing sensible honest leadership huh? I imagine you think I’m a republican and should come over the the “good” side huh? More incorrect guessing. I’ve only ever voted for democrats and was proud of that for the longest time, but the last decade it has been tough to watch the slow descent into the mouth of radical madness. It’s very disheartening because I grew up thinking the democratic party was the party of the real working folks. I grew up relatively poor and thought these people have some understanding of the challenges of that. But then the older I got, the crazier the dem leadership got. Now my choices at each election appear to be an out of touch idiot with an R or an out of touch idiot with a D. Not good, man.
That’s why stupid trump won. Not because he’s a good person or would be a good president, but because very few people take elections seriously anymore. And no wonder.
“Stupid is as stupid does”.
I am bitter the state party under Ann’s leadership made fools of us and left unpaid bills and sanction under whats left of the Voter Protection Act. And that we leave Dusty Johnson uncontested. Big Republican money.
But if you think the fallacy equating the two parties, or resume’ comparison of the presidential candidates doesn’t matter, then you haven’t rolled up your sleeves. If you want to save your 4 yr old’s future you must participate in changing our corrupted system.
drumpf body count over 102k as of last evening. GDP fell 5% in first quarter instead of 4.6% and another 2.1 million workers filed for unemployment. Kudlow, I believe, said economy would be recovered by Fall.
Personally, I am still waiting for Covid-19 to go “POOF”.
See my separate Biden thread comments completing this conversation re: Measles, Flu and current pandemic, ending as of this day/time.
…. starting generally @08:48, 06.02.20 “Trump something/Biden Leads” thread
“Given the wide variation in quoted values for COVID-19’s R0 [38], we consider two cases: R0 = 2.2 and k = 0.54 [36]; and R0 = 4.0, which is in line with the recent estimate of around 3.87, which is based on the initial growth of observed cases and deaths in 11 European countries [30].”royal london