Having poked my religious neighbors, I now yield the floor to quasi-fellow Aberdonian Pastor Steve Hickey, who offers this review of South Dakota politics in 2016, a quick 2017 watch list, and his call for a new open political party.
This is my top ten list countdown for the biggest political stories in South Dakota in 2016.
- Mick out, Mike in(dependent).
- Daugaard/Thune don’t get their wish: Trump wins.
- Jackley positions himself.
- Kristi Noem on Trump’s good side, but still coming home.
- The darkness deepens for SD Democrats.
- Voters want an ethics commission.
- The 2016 ballot measure buffet and the money behind it, particularly Marsy’s Law, IM22, and Atlanta loan boss Rod Aycox, and the message the legislative and executive branches still don’t get.
- That transgenders remain such fixation, anathema and threat. Meanwhile, an assisted suicide measure pops up on the ballot but not on our radar.
- 76% of voters sent the payday/title lenders packing and the political bipartisanship that got it done goes way way beyond Hilde and Hickey. In state history, has any other ballot issue or candidate brought together the religious right and the religious left, the wealthy and the poor, the rural and the urban, East River and West River, and the young and the old??
- South Dakota chooses industry and investor interests over state/tribal relations by sending law enforcement to Standing Rock, potentially setting state tribal relations back 40 years. Third world conditions within our borders are still okay with the majority who put blame off onto the Feds and Tribes. Yet, the Feds are the problem and can’t fix anything, ever. Time to stop blaming others and be good neighbours. The way forward is good old fashioned South Dakota neighborliness.
What to watch for 2017; I’m watching video lottery revenues, ag slowdown ongoing, for an independent candidate surge* and for the central bankers to punish Trump with a market crash and war.
We talk about open primaries. We need an open party and I don’t think just joining the independent party* will do it. It has been my contention that the Republicans in our state have poorly stewarded their supermajority and rendered themselves unable at this point to bring our state together. Between the blue and red in our national flag is white, not purple. Since white has racial overtones, let’s call it the open space. The way forward in South Dakota politics is to meet out in the open space of ideas not ideologies. I wish there were such a thing as an open party in our state:
- open government, open books, open caucuses
- open minds: a party that is open to the best ideas no matter who they come from
- open hearts: open to the people, open to Indians and immigrants and not just those in-between
- open for good businesses who are responsible corporate citizens, open to my old SD TRADE ideas for economic development partnerships on the Rez or whatever else
- open prison doors (true criminal justice reform that is redemptive not retributive)
South Dakota ~ Open Spaces, Open Embraces
Too corny? Wide Open Spaces, Wide Open Embraces, Free Marketplaces? [links added; Rev. Steve Hickey, e-mail to Dakota Free Press, 2016.12.29]
*Minor responses:
- Folks thought Larry Pressler’s 17% showing as an independent in the 2014 Senate race signaled a surge of independents in 2016, yet this year’s ballot included no independents on the statewide ballot and no uptick in independent bids downticket.
- There’s no such thing as “the independent party.”
- The “open party” Hickey describes aligns pretty much with principles and polices we Democrats have offered election after election.
Re Rez trade: In my travels around South America, I have noticed a LOT of dream catchers at the indigenous markets. When asked about these, the vendors readily admit they are a North American craft and not SA. I wonder, who is making these? Where? Why are they marketed so heavily ex-US – not so much here (by way of comparing SA goods for sale in NA)?
Next month in Carbon County Wyoming, the Wyoming Game and Fish will put its blessings on a 500 unit wind turbine system that will generate power for the Southwestern portion of the United States. The power will be delivered by a brand new grid system built for this new energy source that will be worth millions to the good folk of Wyoming.
Why not have something exactly like that on the reservations? There was one that was going to go to Crow Creek or Lower Brule but something happened. Put a wind farm on the reservation around the Sharps Corner Manderson area. Economic development with gusto.
I think the issue is who owns the turbines and who is making or sharing the profit. Plus there are likely transmission issues for sending the electricity elsewhere.
The good news is that Wyoming doesn’t have to deal with the intermittency, that problem is being shipped to wherever the wind energy is being delivered. Could also be a potential win for Wyoming coal to make up the difference.
Richard S.
The Dream Catchers that you talk of are mainly made by craftsmen and women on the reservation. They are mainly sold to individuals and tourists.
Retailers that handle the dream catchers are trading posts like Prairie Edge in Rapid City and similar outlets.
The tribes would own the whole system through investments. The EB5 is still a viable program, just not with South Dakota state government, it is too crooked. The tribes, on the other hand, have a clean record on this. Here is an article of the success in Florida and it could just as well be here on the reservations as well. The tribe or tribes form a business plan for the purpose of renewable energy as 100% Indian owned. All of the governmental organizations, including the existing studies of wind generation and the buyers needed for approval are put together and then, the offer. https://www.ft.com/content/c5c15778-75af-11e6-b60a-de4532d5ea35
There is a grid line running by Olerichs, South Dakota bordering the Oglala Lakota County for access to the west and southwest. A consortium between Rosebud and Pine Ridge would then gain access to the East for grid service that would tie into hydro power lines. All 100% tribal owned with EB5 investors.
Oglala Lakota College in Kyle could then offer courses in management as well as servicing and managing the chargers and its delivery systems.
Would wind energy be a good use of the land that they have? Yes.
Are battery technologies ready to better integrate this onto the grid? No.
Can we better use the wind when it is available? Yes.
I tend to favor dedicated applications if no battery storage is feasible, such as the charging of electric cars or secondary heating or cooling. Otherwise, get comfy burning more natural gas or coal in parallel to deliver what energy is being demanded.
hickey: deepest congrats on #9.
are you sure you are not a liberal and just deeply religious?
Doc: the wind ALWAYS blows in yippyippWyo…well I remember this one winter day outside of Lander
“The wind always blows” does not mean “we have enough power from that wind to do what we want” :^).
So let’s use what the wind can provide, but let’s also develop other ways to generate the power we will actually use.
:^)…yet. sense of humor Doc!
That will take energy storage, which has its issues for the foreseeable future. So we are left with a use-it-or-lose-it proposition for the time being.
Oceti Sakowin Power Authority is a Federally Chartered Corporation of a Consortium of Federally Recognized Tribes. Oglala, Rosebud, Eagle Butte, Standing Rock, Crow Creek, Yankton and Flandreau. Chartered in 2015.
The propose of the Corporation is to collectively overcome past challenges they faced trying to develop renewable energy sources on their own. Lots of legwork has been done on this project. Including current work by the Department of Energy, National Renewable Energy Laboratory and Western Area Power Administration. This work is an analysis of the wind, transmission and technical/environmental constraints across the reservations. Coupled with existing data done by the tribes the real feasibility of developing large wind production will be finalized.
Mr. McTaggart is a smart guy. He consistently downplays the effectiveness of wind energy in our power system. So why Doc are all these HUUUGE wind farms built? Tax credits, jobs programs, build it and they will come, etc? There are always potential investors and power purchasers for these projects.
http://midwestenergynews.com/2016/12/01/amid-dakota-access-protests-tribes-continue-to-pursue-clean-energy-standing-rock/
Thanks Spike, That power authority could actually be the selling point to the EB5 investors as the tribes would retain ownership of the operation. That other article in your link also has Koch Brothers and their stranglehold over South Dakota projects other than pipelines.
What happened to the one that was going into Crow Creek? https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-02/documents/10nov11_winterhawk-crowcreektribalwindfarm.pdf
Forgot to add Spike, doc is kind of stuck in a rut on the negativity of renewable power, kind of like I am stuck on the benefits of train and public service transportation to all of South Dakota, passenger and freight.
Jerry, I think you are getting the wrong message. Nuclear plus renewables is fine, particularly since new nuclear can follow the load better.
But without nuclear, why deliver more renewable power onto the grid when it is available but there is no demand? Why burn more fossil fuels in the meantime to make up the difference?
Is this the start of what Mr. Hickey’s calling regarding market crashes, etc.? I am amazed that news organizations in the state of South Dakota are not reporting on the Russians and what all they have been doing besides getting Trump elected. Now we find out they actually hacked into our power grid system. From the Washington Post:
“A code associated with the Russian hacking operation dubbed Grizzly Steppe by the Obama administration has been detected within the system of a Vermont utility, according to U.S. officials.
“While the Russians did not actively use the code to disrupt operations, according to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a security matter, the discovery underscores the vulnerabilities of the nation’s electrical grid. And it raises fears in the U.S. government that Russian government hackers are actively trying to penetrate the grid to carry out potential attacks.”
Meanwhile, Trump and Rounds are still praising Putin for being a smart guy. It just keeps getting weirder.
Mc Taggart – you continue to bellyache about “battery” technology. Hydro storage is the answer. OLD TECHNOLOGY that works. How many times do I need to point it out? I suppose until you drop the knee-jerk rhetoric. And I will.
Trains are bad, Mr. jerry, they are bad. When the firemen need to come to your house do you want them to take the train?
Mr. Schriever, I think Dr. McTaggart has been more than civil to you. As a fan of hydro storage myself, I tend to agree with your point but feel your rudeness contributes little to our point.
Thanks for posting this Cory. Obviously these are the big news items from my vantage point.
I’m working on another list of: Sacred Cows to Slaughter in South Dakota
So far I only have eight.
1. Ellsworth AFB: Established in 1941 to ramp up for World War, now no longer a national spending priority. Time to start weaning SD off the Federal teat. Besides, long-distance droning is immoral and as our friend Larry has been saying: it makes Rapid City vulnerable to “Someone from Yemen, Afghanistan or somewhere rolling a truck bomb into Rapid City Central High School or the School of Mines after an Ellsworth-based drone pilot targets a wedding party or religious service.”
(Selectively) Fiscal conservatives never want to cut the defence budget. I do. Time to close Ellsworth and shudder half our overseas bases. (Actually it’s far more than a defence budget. America is on the offense more than not.) Many of my Republican colleagues in the legislature were fiscal conservatives and would get loud and vocal about Washington DC’s inability to balance their budget. Yet we seemed so oblivious to the depths of cuts it would take to balance the budget and what that would mean to South Dakota, and an income tax would never be considered. And never was there talk of cutting Defence spending in DC, ever. And never would anyone support closing a base in our state that brought MONEY and JOBS and PEOPLE into our state – like it is the Federal Governments jobs to provide these for us.
Say goodbye to Ellsworth if you are truly a fiscal conservative and figure out how to wean South Dakota off Federal Dollars. Fifteen years after 9/11 and we are still bombing seven countries and only the oligarchy really knows why. How many Americans have died, and for what? The world isn’t safer and there aren’t fewer people who hate us and are mobilised to harm us. In fact, there are more. Maybe a total shift in foreign policy is in order because what we are doing is making all our problems worse. More on this idea in #2.
2. The failed philosophy of retributive justice in our criminal justice system: It’s not working and it’s making people madder and meaner and worse for society than before. There has got to be a way to re-purpose Ellsworth. Maybe put all non-violent prisoners on the base and relocate a vo-tech school there. If we are going to pay for these folks anyway let’s at least make it an investment in the possibility of introducing them to their dignity as human beings and producing good citizens at release. You finish your course program, you get to come home. Time to drop the felon stigma and let them vote. The goal should be they leave saying prison was the best thing that happened to me, not the worst. Instead of bombing people from here we could build people here.
3. Ag land valuation. Time for the school districts and retail/biz associations to duke it out with the ag community for fair taxation for school funding.
4. Sanford Health’s non-profit status should have been on the chopping block five years ago.
5. We need to chop off any state claim to Bear Butte and return it to the tribes.
6. Put two state universities on the chopping block. Too many schools for this size state.
7. Video Lottery, ownership secrecy then whack the entire South Dakota Lottery Commission. The state should not profit when it’s citizens lose.
8. Pipelines: Listening to Republicans talk about the benefits of pipelines you’d think they were confusing them with the Second Coming of Christ. The ticket to a lasting improvement to the South Dakota economy is a passenger railway not an oil pipeline. It brings people to jobs. Here in Europe, you take the train.
If my fiscal conservative friends don’t like ideas #1 and #2, I’ll be anxious to hear their ideas on funding the now needed $300,000,000 state penitentiary as the present one is full.
Conservative Steve Hickey has learned what Europeans have realized since they were devastated by WWII. Buying things we all need is much cheaper when purchased as a group. It’s called “socialism” and the quicker that label loses it’s negative, Republican pimped image the better USA will be. National healthcare is cheaper. Trains are cheaper. Combined military is cheaper. Shop at a Co-Op or a Sam’s Club and that’s pure socialism and it’s cheaper because people are buying as a group. The second letter “S” in USSR has nothing to do with communism!!
Wrongo, Porter. I’ve NOT advocated for national healthcare, trains or combined military. The movement here in Europe is away from socialism. I see neither socialism nor capitalism as the fix.
Righto, Hickey. You’re just to contrary to realize that you’re promoting it, subconsciously. How are you paying for cancer treatments in Scotland? With USA health insurance or National Healthcare? You just said that trains are the answer to a lasting improvement to SoDak economy. When you close military bases you are in effect combing the assets of the military. Remove the negativity bias you burden yourself with and embrace what you really believe.
Private US insurance is paying for my bills at Mayo. And, I have paid the annual national surcharge for NHS here as required. Combing the assets of the military? Rather than mothballing buildings I’m suggesting we put them to use and take over the expenses of the facility.
grudz – the originator of the rudeness is McTaggart, as he has continued to IGNORE the simple solution that has been pointed out to him many times, in favor of his memorized storage rhetoric. McTaggart thus exhibits a rudeness in his unwillingness to listen and to learn from we with non-nuclear physics credentials. It smacks of elitism.
It’s not required that you use NHS. It’s your choice to use socialism because it’s cheaper as I’ve asserted above. Private healthcare and a wide variety of alternative and complementary treatments are available for those willing to pay.
Comparing combining military assets to what to use the buildings for after the combining of military assets is a false equivalency with no relevance to your call for closing military bases, which combines military assets.
Europe is not moving away from socialism. Tweaking a paradigm that saved Europe after everything was lost in WWII and has served the population for 75 years can’t be called a major shift after only two election cycles. You can tweak socialism but it’s still socialism and we’ll soon see it in USA. Tweaking Obamacare and saying you repealed Obamacare is misdirection and self-pandering by Republicans. Socialism will remain in core application as will Obamacare remain in core application.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Scotland
Ah but Hickey – converting Ellsworth to yet another publicly held use is indeed still socialism. If you were a true fiscal conservative – you’d want to sell that property to a private entity, and to have a private entity operate your rehabilitation/training center. The rails in Britain and the rest of Europe you so admire are also publicly held and operated (unlike the privately operated US system). So, you see you do have socialist ambitions in mind.
Mayo is also non-profit – shall we end their status as well? Will closing two universities mean transferring those programs they offer to others? If so, how much in construction costs will there be to add facilities to accommodate the transferred students. professors, and so on?
BTW Steve – Non profit status is a matter of Federal – not state – designation. Maybe you’re on the wrong ball field there? Unless you are giving us a sneak peak at ambitions for higher office?
Mr. Hickey has some pretty solid ideas. The first one and two of ridding ourselves of Ellsworth, is long overdue. We waste so much of our resources on such little return that it must change. We have listened to fake news so much that we fear a few thousand fanatics running around in a desert, thousands of miles across vast oceans. The snuff films of beheadings that have been allowed to enter our living rooms is not news, it is obscene.
The idea of utilizing the buildings at the place for the housing of non dangerous inmates makes sense to me. I agree that there are those that should never ever be allowed to mingle with society as they are damaged beyond repair. As an idea for the place would be to make it a series of green houses for regional supplies of green fresh foods. Transportation of goods to places like South Dakota is expensive, but if it were grown within a region, then you could have fresh foods rather than chemically ripened foods.
These workers would be paid for the work they do there as rehabilitation for what they did to be on the grounds in the first place. Many have families that suffer from the lack of not having their family member provide for them. No stigma’s and full voting rights for them.
I’m convinced Corey could have changed parties….put an “R” by his name…followed his same beliefs and political views…and been elected.
Mr. Hickey’s list is very admirable. We can all find common ground in Steves list I believe. Video lootery, I’ve often wondered how it got sooo out of hand while we say gambling is regulated to Deadwood and the rez casinos.
Is there any good data on what kind of assistance or subsistence money (Social Security, SSI, etc) is spent in these video casinos that are all over the place and the social costs? My gut says bad news.
I am for downsizing the proliferation of video lottery. Oh no! Our ‘Republican friends’ on here will complain about the loss of jobs, vendor sales etc if we shut it down ala payday loan shops. But Trump will provide new good paying jobs for these people… at Hardee’s if his DOL nominee has his way.
A gorilla in the room on health care in that ‘non profit’ status is what the administrators earn. Not service providers but administration. Big big dollars. Big. Makes ‘government’ bloat look like child’s play.
I rode the train from Santa Fe to Albuquerque n back many times. Really fun and everyone enjoyed the time. I think our independent nature as rural people makes it hard to turn over the keys to a train conductor and train schedule. This would take time to change as would developing the infrastructure. Build it and they will come?
Compassion and education for drug convicted criminals? Not in SD! Or maybe I’m wrong?
Tribes continue to buy sacred lands around Bear Butte and the black hills to protect from development. These purchases result in increased spiritual use by natives. Also increasing financial injections into the area. But Gov Daugaard went down to Rosebud and got angry at the Tribe for buying Pe Sla. He basically said you Indians should come spend your money in our larger towns then go back to the rez. Nice one Gov.
I wish a great New Year to all.
Mr. Kurtz sang praises for public rail service in South Dakota some time ago. I agreed with his ideas then and I agree with your ideas now Mr. Hickey. We presently have the rail beds in a large part of the state that could be brought back and put into use with economic development. The Wheat Growers are bring back rail service to western South Dakota on soon to be new rail systems on old rail beds. As these are heavy rails, both freight and passengers can travel on the line with no problems. Light rail could service outlying areas from there. There is no reason why a person in South Dakota should not have access to great public transportation. We have people in this country who need jobs, here they are.
Healthcare in Europe is not free by any means. You pay for that through your Social Security withholding that is considerably more than it is here in the US. What you get out of that though is public healthcare, disability both long term and short term, and unemployment and maternity and family leave for both parents. You can buy individual health insurance, after underwriting, for personal use. These plans are limited so you use them mainly for office visits and so on with private doctors who accept the plans. If you get sick with something like cancer, you go public as it is the best care you can possibly get.
Rail systems in the UK are a combination of nationalized and privatized systems that work well with one another. This is the practice in most of western Europe that seems to work very well. The trains are on time that is for sure. Here is what happens if your train is late in France or Spain https://www.renfe-sncf.com/rw-en/prepare-your-trip/after-travelling/Pages/compensation-policy.aspx
Remember, it was through the Marshall Plan after World War II that we see the much improved rail and public services in Europe. US Taxpayers had a big hand in that building. We know how to do it, so lets get to work.
I am intrigued by the Ellsworth discussion. I contend that military decisions should be made strictly according to military needs. If Ellsworth protects national interests, it should remain. If the same security can be provided by other facilities more efficiently, operations should go elsewhere.
In addition to state claims for Bear Butte and the lands in close proximity, they should be purchased and then forever put into trust for the tribes. Mr. Hickey is spot on in this regard as well.
Something else regarding Ellsworth, the closing of the place would also mean a safer environment regarding the practice areas of Montana and Wyoming as well. That would free up even more land than what the base itself occupies.
Military needs.
I own firearms and need them all. Actually, I really don’t. But I keep them just in case.
In this case, we need the money much more. We need to quit droning the rest of the world. We need to rethink the foolishness of it all, the high cost of American lives, dying for reasons we can’t ever confirm are legit. We can tell ourselves they are dying for our freedom, to keep us and others in the world safe. We need to believe that, but it’s also believable that our present wars aren’t for good reason. Just read yesterday about the pipelines that are the real reason for conflict in Syria. That would suck if that were really true. Who knows? It’s as believable as anything else. Whose team is Obama on? I was a Military Kid whose dad came home really messed up and taught me to never believe the war propaganda the government puts out.
Close the base and turn it into a super low security state rehabilitation facility and vo-tech. I’m not kidding about the 300 million new prison. I was one of the stakeholders in the criminal justice reform a few years ago. The reason we were doing that is because the alternative was a 300 million dollar prison. As I explained at the time, our state wasn’t willing to do something radical to see our prison population go way down. And, the criminal justice reform we passed into law isn’t shrinking our population. Now what?
The United States Air Force has a total of three permanent B1-B Bomber bases (all in the United States:
Ellsworth SD, Grand Forks ND, Dyess TX. There is also one in Kansas as they have the only National Guard unit which flies the B1-B bomber.
While some for purely financial reasons want to go down to two bases, military leaders are insistent we need four bases just to distribute these bombers so they aren’t concentrated into a few places, making it easier to wipe out our entire bomber fleet.
Yes, the military evaluates its needs periodically including the B1-B fleet. Yes, it is our best interests (state and national) for Rapid City to make its best presentation why they fleet should stay here. But, unlike CH who says the decision should be made for military reasons, SH’s rant is uninformed (he knows nothing of military strategic or tactical needs) and is using arguments which are irrelevant (weaning SD off the federal teat).
BTW, he mentions we are bombing seven countries right now as if that is relevant to the B1-B. The B1-B is not being used in any of those missions. The B1-B is a strategic weapon primarily designed as a deterrent and has been critical in keeping the primary peace for 70 years. If SH wants to assert we have no need for strategic defense, he can make it and see if it is the American consensus. But, to rant about closing Ellsworth without that debate and an Ellsworth decision in context of that debate is nonsense.
Regarding pipelines, they are the cheapest, safest, and most environmentally friendly way to transport oil, gas, and natural gas. Desiring the more expensive, less safe, and least environmentally damaging form of transport is neither fiscally conservative or doing good for those who can’t afford a greater percentage of their income going to higher cost fuel to get to work or heat their homes.
Regarding pipelines, they are the cheapest, safest, and most environmentally friendly way to transport oil, gas, and natural gas.
Until they spill and they will spill.
Desiring the more expensive, less safe, and least environmentally damaging form of transport is neither fiscally conservative or doing good for those who can’t afford a greater percentage of their income going to higher cost fuel to get to work or heat their homes.
Some of us prefer less environmental damage and the slightly higher costs could easily be offset if freaking wingnuts would stop trying to block minimum wage increases. Why are the poors expected to keep their mouths shut about wanting higher wages just so korporate fat cats can have larger bonuses?
The pipeline is factual Mr. Hickey. http://english.thebdexpress.com/turkey-russia-strike-strategic-turkish-stream-gas-pipeline-deal/ This also is a part of the pipelines that will tie Iranian gas into the European markets. So the real butchery has to do with gas not oil. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/syria/2015-10-14/putins-gas-attack
The drones will patrol strategic pipe locations to prevent sabotage with strike forces within minutes to further protect the lines. The gullible American taxpayer thinks he is preventing beheading, but it is just fleecing he is allowing. Obama’s team has always been the American business one. We are building transfer points on the south eastern and eastern seaboard to load LNG for Trans Atlantic shipments to Europe through Sines, Portugal for one. The plan is to put a damper on Russia’s stranglehold to western Europe’s supplies to make sure that they are not blackmailed into territorial aggression by Russia. So, Mr. Hickey, you father was correct, don’t ever believe war propaganda and the bed wetters.
Presently in Afghanistan, we are there to help shore up security for the gas lines that will go from Turkmenistan to Pakistan and India right through Afghanistan. We could give a care on how many lives are destroyed as long as we are warm. We all should have our own power source to prevent that. That is where the real markets will be developed by ingenuity, maybe that could be manufactured at a restructured Ellsworth..
Drumpf will deed Ellsworth to Drumpf and build the greatest golf course ever by diverting the Upper Missouri River to water the greens year around. Then Drumpf will have the COE level the Black Hills to improve the view from his new golf course and hire Bundy militiacreatures to keep the Indians and Messicans off the course. Of course only billionaires will be able to afford the price of admission and then they will receive total tax credits for membership fees.
Any ranched cattle that wander onto the course are forfeited to feed Drumpf’s guests and the bill for removal will be sent to each individual rancher. Good deal all around- for Drumpf.
The military is not making the decisions to keep all these bases open. The politicians are.
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/12/18/Congress-Pentagon-Don-t-Even-Think-About-Closing-Military-Bases
“SH’s rant is uninformed (he knows nothing of military strategic or tactical needs)”
Troy and I agree about my being ill-informed on the details. But I don’t care or believe what we are told. The defence budget is outrageous. Never have I heard a Republican say anything about cuts except “wasteful spending – the old $600 hammer thing from decades ago.” The Pentagon at present can’t account for 6.5 TRILLION. We aren’t talking hammers anymore. Double the salary of every one enlisted, give early retirements, double Vet benefits and still close half the bases overseas, and a few at home. Time to scale down.
The federal teat is not irrelevant as a significant argument to keep the base in SD, made by Thune/ 2004, is the economic benefit it brings. I’m saying we can’t speak out of both sides of our mouth; out one side saying the fed spends too much and out the other side saying we need federal spending to keep our regional economy afloat.
And I don’t care about which is safer, pipelines or roads or rails. I’m saying we are at war over them (here and there) and that is really wrong. To hell with the people there or their land. Troy, you are well-informed, is it really the case that the largest refugee crisis in modern history – children drowning at sea as borders are closed to their families – radical Islamists seeing the crisis as their opportunity to send their covert militants to infiltrate the West – Aleppo being mercilessly blown off the map – America running arms to our enemies – etc, etc, all has to do with OIL PIPELINEs? Pipelines and oil and energy the real reason behind the war in Syria, etc etc. Frankly it’s more believable to me than anything I’ve heard from my government and their state media outlets. America, for shame. This is what I watched. It’s a dubious source but I do thank God these days for the alternative media: http://www.anonews.co/us-war-russia/
And don’t denigrate my ideas as a rant. Be glad there are people in SD who have passion for some of their ideas to make the state a better place. It remains a beef of mine that once elected, we rarely hear from anyone unless they have to take a position on something. And I can’t only think of a few willing walk out on the limb of anything radical just because it’s time.
And Troy, how sure are you Ellsworth isn’t presently bombing any of these seven countries? http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/communities/ellsworth/guiding-the-eye-in-the-sky-ellsworth-drone-missions-began/article_de9391e4-7c4d-11e2-9875-0019bb2963f4.html
Richard,
Thank you for your warm New Year thoughts…I will need them next week as the temperature plunges into the single digits….I wonder how pumped hydro does in cold temperatures.
Pumped hydro storage has been around for a long time, indeed. So why are we still having these energy storage issues for renewables if it is so terrific?
Besides cost, one reason is how the stored energy comes back to the grid. Pumped hydro tends to be more steady, and cannot necessarily follow the sharp spikes and decreases of the demand. Batteries tend to do better in this regard. But nevertheless as part of a mix of storage technologies with different response times, pumped hydro can certainly play a role.
If you cannot solve energy storage but want to actually reduce carbon, you can build new nuclear to displace some natural gas and make up for renewables when they are not available or not enough.
Rev. Hickey speaks loud truth and wisdom on many issues. We in and from South Dakota would do well to listen and learn.
SH,
You called for a closing of Ellsworth. Ellsworth is principally a B1-B base. The droning you mention can be sent up anywhere and is a minor component of what happens at Ellsworth.
If you want to call for no more drone strikes, do it honestly and forthrightly and not hide behind some nonsensical call to close Ellsworth to get us off the federal teat which is absolutely the stupidest reason to advocate closing of Ellsworth, a B1-B fighter AFB.
Just to be clear: The drones are put in flight at bases very close to where they strike. They don’t launch from Ellsworth. All that is done at Ellsworth is some of the drone pilots are based there and could be based anywhere.
Wingnuts demand a small government they can drown in the bathtub0-when it comes to social safety nets for the poors. When the issue is defense, bigger government is definitely better because of all the money wingnuts can rake in to cover their deficits from not raising taxes.
You are making this a muddy matter, Troy. I was clear. Close Ellsworth and reduce defence spending (on which a regional sector of economy is dependant.) And re-purpose it for better use and benefit long term for our state.
Also, let’s quit droning people and bombing them for oil and telling ourselves it makes us more secure and them too. What’s true is we arm people and it turns out in the next go ’round they oppose us. I’m taking issue also with our Peace Price President. And I’ve lost faith that the guy before him was telling anyone the truth, including himself. It’s true we have Americans dying for a commander in chief who might be on the wrong team. It’s true we’ve become an oligarchy. It’s true in 2004 we opposed the base closing because of the economic loss to that side of out state. I’ve postulated a lot here. But I haven’t insinuated Ellsworth should be closed because I oppose droning. I know Ellsworth is a B1 base. I also know we are droning from there.
Is the regional economic impact of closing the base in SD reason enough to keep it open?
Any ideas of funding a $300M prison project?
We’ve known each other a while. I’m not sure I’ve ever heard or read anything from you by way of ideas, only armchair analysis.
There’s also a low effectiveness Air base in Cheyenne that could dissolve without much loss of protection. Warren AFB is the only USA air base that never had a runway. It’s mission was to support the Minuteman silos.
It sounds like they could do this droning business from their living room couches over the world wide web. I think the Ellsworth is needed only for the big airplanes to land and take off from there.
Leave it to impending doom to inspire people to come up with new creative ideas.
People are far more ball-less and bland when everything looks under control.
Santa Claus gunmen killed 35 in Istanbul for the New Year. How safe are we here with the extreme right wing still loaded for the same?
ULTRA LOL – drones controlled via World Wide Web instead of secured high speed independent networks. -LOL-
Mr. Adam, they do it with computers. They could probably do it with those fancy I phones too if they wanted.
Jerry writes:
The historical Saint Nicholas was a Christian leader during the AD 300s in what’s now Muslim Turkey. The government of Turkey allows one Christian worship service per year at the historical Church of Saint Nicholas in the city where he lived. The service is held on December 6, traditionally the feast day of Nicholas and the anniversary of his death.
“In Turkey’s Home of St. Nick, Far From North Pole, All Is Not Jolly” (New York Times, December 17): http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/world/middleeast/turkeys-santa-claus-.html
Grudz, yeah, if you want to give the Russians an opportunity to hack into and control them – then sure.
At Puerto del Sol in the center of Madrid, Spain this year, the authorities emptied the plaza and then allowed only 25,000 people in to bring in the new year. The entering crowd was given the once over for weapons and that sort of thing that was unthinkable a few short months ago. Quite a smaller crowd than in the past because of the threat of violence by Santa Claus or whomever. Berlin, is much more subdued and watchful than in the past, as is Paris. Both have suffered the consequences of climate change and how the migration of the lost souls of countries that are now war torn are entering for safety.
Interesting choice of capitalistic Santa Claus, that has become nothing more than a killer of innocent people in more ways than one. It matters not if it is in secular Turkey, France or Spain, this is the world we live in thanks to an intrusion in Iraq all those years ago. Yes, we the coalition of the willing, more than outdid ourselves in the outcome of our complete indifference to all that is wealth and power. Well boys, now we got it, ain’t it grand.
Now we have Evans blathering about “Muslim” Turkey as if he gives a damn that the dead are from all over the world, just out having fun. You see, blood is just that, it is the same from all people, just different blood types, that is all. Evans is just another ignorant man with an agenda of hate. You see, with him and his ugly rhetoric, it only matters that you are as fake of a “fundamental” Christian as he is. He has only the words of hate not the promise of a brighter tomorrow, only his indifference to anyone other than what he sees himself in the mirror. Much like the Santa Claus killers in Istanbul with their hate message, Evans does exactly the same. BTW Evans, “Muslim” Turkey is a key member of NATO, so there is that.
Mr. Adam, don’t be silly. They would put passwords on them and use the thing with the little paddlock like when you buy things on the internet so it is secure. The point is you can fly Mr. Hickey’s droners from probably anywhere, not just Ellsworth. The military has the technology, even if you and I don’t understand it.
SH,
Go back to your rambling rant. The primary rationale for closing Ellsworth was to get South Dakota off the federal teat. As a rationale it is moronic. Ellsworth is currently a central component of strategic national defense. The only Considerations relevant to Ellsworth is strategic national defense.
If you oppose strategic air defense, oppose it with reasoned rationales. If that is the consensus of Americans regarding our defense, Ellsworth has no purpose and then your ideas on repurposing may have merit. If you oppose either the engagements where we drone or prefer we do those sorties with manned planes, lay out your rationale. But to advocate closing to get us off the federal teat is stupid.
Regarding ideas, ideas with moronic rationales are moronic ideas and nothing to pat yourself on the back about. If your real rationale for closing Ellsworth is something else, be honest enough to say it.
Mr Hickey,
EVERY purchase, payment and sale made by every Government office is put on a computer. When will we be allowed to rummage through those records on the Internet and see where OUR money goes?
As far as yet another prison, that is very small thinking. Ellsworth should be shuttered, then turned into an International Hub with facilities rented to Fedex, UPS, USPS, and any other shippers looking to relocate. Those are all good jobs with benefits along with all the local support staff on the facility.
The side businesses that would spring up would be too numerous to list. A few things that I would enjoy would be a Drag Strip, unequaled for a thousand miles and certifiable by the NHRA and IHRA with little cost. Hosting the Summer Nationals and other events would bring a lot of clean money to Rapid. There would be National SCCA and IMSA road course racing events with a number of courses all running at the same time. Drag race and specialty car makers would appreciate the long, thick, and smooth runway and the number of warm, sunny days, even in winter. Small aircraft builders would appreciate our work ethic and open skies.
Forget Tech Schools, there would be jobs at the Shelby Shop, Panoz ,and Piper; with on-the-job training and paychecks instead of job searches and student loan payments.
troy. Who’s the moron here? Again, in slow motion…
Steve Hickey says let’s close Ellsworth as it is not a spending priority for our Government. If we are truly fiscal conservatives, it’s time to revisit our defence spending and be honest about how much of it is actually offensive spending, and unauthorised, and unaccountable.
To counter the expected Republican bitching about that idea Steve Hickey said: if the impact to the local economy in that region is the real reason (as in 2004) South Dakotans want to keep it open… I then say – it’s not the Governments job to provide us jobs – we need to wean ourselves off Federal Spending even if it helps us locally. Nothing moronic about that, if you are a fiscal conservative. Aren’t we tired of government spending? Or, is it okay as long as it gets spent in my district?
It remains, you have no ideas to make our state better. I’ve never heard you propose or champion one. I can think of ten of mine that, in your armchair analysis, you say are bad ideas. But never do you contribute anything more than arrogant analysis and criticism. It gets old.
You’ve been watching and analysing from the sidelines long enough, why you you post Troy Jones’ top ten list of ideas to make South Dakota stronger and better? We’d love to hear them.
Barry – good ideas. My reason for suggesting Ellsworth become a state rehabilitation facility is that we need to let non-violent people go, somewhere. And I can think of nothing else to stave off the building of 300 million dollar new penitentiary.
Troy – how will we pay for a new penitentiary? Daugaard’s criminal justice reform didn’t work, or wasn’t near enough. Ideas please. If you don’t have any say so and don’t criticise mine.
Mr. Hickey there could be civilian use of the drone programs to remain at Ellsworth. Especially in rural areas, drones could save counties thousands of dollars in patrol costs monitoring infrastructure while keeping the peace. They could and are being used to look for missing persons, they could and are being used to monitor environmental issues. They could and are being used for agricultural needs. Drones could improve agricultural techniques to the point of a producer only utilizing a portion of land mass to gain achieve the earnings from over burden of the land with lower costs and efficiency.
This could be another way of rehabilitating non violent members back into society. There are peaceful ways of making robots and drones work together with humans. As long as we taxpayers have paid for the brand new infrastructure of homes and classrooms at Ellsworth, keep them while sending those out of date bombers to the scrap heap. If people are interested in planes of war, build more Warthogs for close air support. The usefulness of strategic bombers has long been eliminated.
McTaggaart. And so here we now finally come to the way to really compare the effectiveness of “traditional” power sources (Nuclear, Coal, Gas) vs. “alternative” sources. I understand why it is you like to couch the difference in terms of “storage” vs “response to demand”. Let’s look a little closer at those concepts.
You claim alternatives are inferior because the are restricted to the amount they can be relied upon to generate – that they are “unsteady” (requiring storage) to supplement lower productive lulls. You contrast that with traditional energy’s capacity to “respond to demand”. Why and how are traditional energies able to respond to a “unsteady” demand?
There are two methods.
1. OVER BUILDING CAPACITY. I.E. traditional are deliberately planned and built so that they have EXCESS capacity to normal demand – or even peak demand. What restricts us from using the same approach for alternative energy? Why not plan and build EXCESS CAPACITY – just like the traditional folks?
2. Traditional energy “pre-stores” energy in the form of fuel stocks. Those big piles of coal one sees at the coal plants. The pre-production of fuel rods for Nukes, the pre-drilling and capping of 10’s of thousands of natural gas wells, for example.
Continually repeating “storage, storage, storage” as a negation of the viability of alternative sources is a red herring sir. I find it disingenuous, and rudely politically motivated – like a typical industry lobbyist’s language vs. that of a citizen concerned first and foremost about innovation geared to preserve the health and well-being of ALL of his/her fellow citizens and not simply defending the “industry standards”.
And a happy and progressive New Year to you too sir.
Amazing ideas. Switch the federal military base Ellsworth into a state penal institution, and then have the incarcerated fly drones all around. That could be most entertaining.
I saw in the paper at breakfast that they are building new bulletproof quarters at Ellsworth so they will be able to hold even more inmates than before. It is a $20,000,000 payment to Mr. Kurtz to build them.
Mr. grudznick, that is the funnies thing I have read for some time. Bulletproof quarters at Ellsworth. Why would the city of Rapid City even think that having that is a good idea for the community. That says to me that citizens in Pennington County should be very scared of an immediate attack from someone at any given time. Will the authorities limit the number of people that can gather in one place as a potential target. Say if there are two or more people sitting at your table in Talley’s having grits or the like with gravy? One thing for sure, it will not be the Russkies, as they are now our leaders as shown by the elections.
Read the paper, Mr. jerry. There is a picture of them on the internet page of the paper too.
Mr. Schriever, Tesla has in home battery storage right now. You can use this to maintain power in your entire home for a 24 hour period without recharging or you can hook it to your solar collector for storage at night when that bright orange ball goes down. https://www.tesla.com/powerwall
There isn’t one South Dakotan who truly understands the strategy or possible national need for Ellsworth Airforce Base.
NONE of us are privy to that big strategic picture, and it’s funny hearing people wax on about it as if a South Dakotan can think like a military General.
Indeed, South Dakotan’s probably would not have thought up building new $20,000,000 bullet proof barracks at Ellsworth.
Amazing Mr. grudznick, I thought you were reading from the Onion, but nope, they are doing it. Mr. Kurtz may unfortunately be correct on this place being targeted by either foreign or domestic threat. Welcome to 2017 and beyond. Time to get rid of the place and let someone else worry about bulletproofing their surroundings.
Trump, and South Dakota, know more about ISIS than our Generals – just one of the great many reasons we gave our state to Trump.
Even if Mr. Hickey gets his way and we have prisoners working and sleeping there we do not want them vulnerable to attacks while they are droning. Even the incarcerated need a safe place to sleep and if in the middle of droning they got attacked then the planes could fall out of the sky or crash into schools or banks. And we don’t want prisoners flying drones into banks.
Mr. Hickey has some agreement in a sense, from Van Jones this morning “”You have to understand, I think that the Clinton days are over. This idea that we’re going to be this moderate party that’s going to move in this direction, that’s going to throw blacks under the bus for criminal justice reform, and for prison expansion, that’s going to throw workers under the bus for NAFTA, those days are over.”” The damage that was done by the Clinton’s is gonna take some time to fix
Who knows Adam, maybe if folks see that there is a party revival to go back to where Democrats started, they can be won back. We have had successful Democratic Senators and Representatives on the national scene as well as Democrats state wide.
Richard,
Overbuilding means increased costs. Not just for the construction of said energy production, but trying to handle the large excess at peak times, or building energy storage as the case may be.
So go ahead and pay a lot more if you want all of that infrastructure which isn’t used 3/4 of the time.
Renewables are fine as long as you allow them to be themselves…i.e. intermittent. Like recharging your electric car without being on the grid at all.
But if you cannot solve energy storage, find applications that do not mind the intermittency, or be fine with burning a lot more natural gas, particularly if you do not like nuclear.
“Steve Hickey says let’s close Ellsworth as it is not a spending priority for our Government.”
You have absolutely no credibility to assess whether having a B1-B Bomber fleet is important to our nation’s defense or determining it is a spending priority. As of now, I know of no defense expert (Republican or Democrat) advocating elimination or reduction of our B1-B fleet. Before there is a rationale for closing Ellsworth I will consider, you have to convince me of the merits of eliminating or reducing our B1-B fleet.
“If we are truly fiscal conservatives, it’s time to revisit our defence spending and be honest about how much of it is actually offensive spending, and unauthorised, and unaccountable.”
I’m all for a revisiting both the defense budget and its priorities. Until there is that discussion, a knee-jerk proposal on a critical component (B1-B and Ellsworth) is premature.
“To counter the expected Republican bitching about that idea Steve Hickey said: if the impact to the local economy in that region is the real reason (as in 2004) South Dakotans want to keep it open… I then say – it’s not the Governments job to provide us jobs – we need to wean ourselves off Federal Spending even if it helps us locally.”
If the B1-B program should be eliminated or reduced in the interests of national defense and it results in a closing of Ellsworth, I would have no problem with its closing. Your assertion that is what is that is about is wrong. Just because the State and RC advocate for it staying open, it is in the context of the program is vital to national defense AND their advocacy is to give the Dept. of Defense all information upon which to make the decision. To not provide the information is malpractice.
“Aren’t we tired of government spending? Or, is it okay as long as it gets spent in my district?”
I have never advocated for government spending I have not deemed in the national interest. You innuendo is spurious.
“It remains, you have no ideas to make our state better. I’ve never heard you propose or champion one. I can think of ten of mine that, in your armchair analysis, you say are bad ideas. But never do you contribute anything more than arrogant analysis and criticism. It gets old.”
If you think because you propose ideas, people are supposed to bow down to you and praise your ideas, you are mistaken. I can’t help it you have more bad ideas with even worse rationales than good ideas. Thinking before ranting and raving might help.
The fact I don’t pontificate in public and put my name on my ideas (or feedback on other’s ideas who ask for my private opinion) doesn’t mean I don’t have ideas. I’m willing to let people who are in positions to enact/implement them to do so and I offer criticism the same way. You just don’t like I think your rants are half-baked.
Regarding my ideas,
You’ve been watching and analysing from the sidelines long enough, why you you post Troy Jones’ top ten list of ideas to make South Dakota stronger and better? We’d love to hear them.
The cost of overbuilding is cheap all things considered. So yeah, lets overbuild it and save the place with renewable storage. Cheaper and safer, good motto to live by.
Pierre is already in the cross hairs of a nuke strike for being the head of state government. Sioux Falls is for being a center of commerce and banking. Rapid City is for Ellsworth. There are already existing bases that could take the couple of squadrons to add to the ones they presently have. Ellsworth used to have tankers here, but they left to go to another base that has tankers. Why not send these bombers to a location that already has them? The militarized drones could also go to those places as well. What would be left is the aiming stake for Ellsworth would be moved to someplace else. In Ellsworth’s place, a place for non violent inmates seems like a good trade off and will save building a half billion dollar new prison when we cannot even afford free Medicaid Expansion.
Also, as Mr. grudznick has pointed out, they are building bulletproof buildings on that base that have never seen those before, even during a world war. This seems like a wake up danger announcement that the authorities expect trouble there through an attack.
“…lets overbuild it and save the place with renewable storage. ”
So if we are going to expand the number of wind turbines, let’s continue mining more rare earth metals from China under environmental standards much worse than ours to supply all of the turbines and all of the batteries. It will warm the true environmentalist’s heart if the damage is somewhere else.
Let’s also not require any bonding for the decommissioning and recycling of wind/solar farms or storage farms. Where is the ballot measure for that? Sorry….I forgot, we don’t really care about recycling or disposal issues for anything but nuclear.
No, lets do this with both solar and wind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r42IW-lHxsE Bloomberg says that renewable energy is now the cheapest source of power in 60 countries. If we can ditch the old ideas of our past and go with new ideas being presented, all will be fine. Here are some articles from Bloomberg https://about.newenergyfinance.com/about/
Certainly the old-fashioned silicon-based solar panel is becoming cheaper, but you still have to install it….which means steel and labor and regulatory codes, and those costs are NOT coming down. I think it is better to use what you produce from home solar and then take from the grid what you need after that, but simply pushing the energy on the grid has its issues.
Over the winter in particular, solar energy is much reduced. So if your energy uses stay the same (or increase) over the winter, something else has to make up the difference.
The costs of the carbon emitted to make up that difference are not included in any such analysis, and the costs of decommissioning said solar panels after their efficiencies have been reduced over time is not included.
Likely these costs would be shifted onto those who do not have any solar panels via taxes or their energy bills, much like Obamacare depends on healthy people buying insurance.
Mactaggart tries to play political games with not so politically oriented PhD.
He is no expert in recycling, nor solar, nor wind power. His novice-ness oozes out of every poorly worded concept and bogus claim.
Sorry, no Mactaggart here. If you are going to bust somebody and position yourself as the expert, at least get the spelling right :^).
Mr. Adam, as a big fan of science, I would say you are being out-scienced by Dr. McTaggart. He is, as the young people say, out-sciencing your ass.
If you want to go all-in on solar and wind, be my guest. But ultimately we choose to keep the lights on when these fail by using the cheapest form of energy, which today is carbon-emitting natural gas.
Interesting discussion. I’ll touch on one thing that has come up here.
China can get away with poor environmental standards because they suppress facts, suppress speech, and suppress protest. They also have a very rudimentary judicial system and enforcement mechanism. Republicans have long wanted to copy the Chinese playbook, and in 20 days we will start being subjected to the Chinese ways of ignoring inconvenient truths, attacking free speech, jailing those who protest, turning the judiciary into a corporate lapdog, and failing to enforce environmental law.
My daughter has been in Beijing for 8 years. When I talk to her it is often during a pollution event that has folks trapped inside. She has an almost constant hack. Breathing Beijing air for as long as she has will shorten her life by years. That is what the Republican Party is about ready to do us.
I follow the nuclear waste issue in China because, in their headlong rush to build some nuclear power stations, the Chinese government made the same mistake as the US in the 1960s and 1970s. They are now finding out that citizens don’t want nuclear waste stored or buried anywhere near them. Spontaneous protests crop up wherever there is an attempt to site a dump or storage facility. It’s a dangerous thing there to protest against these developments, but citizens usually have about one week to create an uprising before the crackdown occurs. Unlike our government, though, Chinese leaders really do listen. They aren’t elected, but they are far more responsive to public opinion than our government. They will halt these developments because the one thing Chinese leaders fear most is loss of support of the public. After they have cancelled their plans, however, they will go looking for the ringleaders.
Trump and the Republicans don’t care about the support of the public. They think they have a mandate to do whatever they want to our environment. I think they have a lot to learn from the Chinese, but it isn’t that we should pattern our environmental laws after Chinese laws.
The Chinese do need more nuclear power to avoid burning that much coal and to electrify their transportation and industrial sectors.
I would agree with you that forcing an unsafe means of nuclear waste storage on a community is not the right thing to do. But safely and responsibly isolating waste from the biosphere in partnership with a community is. If we really enjoy the benefits of clean air and clean water, we should be willing to do the clean up.
There are ways to reduce the amount of radioactivity and the need to isolate it for very long periods of time, but until then the direct burial method in a Yucca Mountain-like facility is what is on the table.
The sad thing is, nuclear energy could help power the recycling of solar and wind infrastructure without emitting carbon, and the recycling of nuclear waste would provide some of the rare earth elements that solar, wind, batteries, and LED lighting need without new mining from China.
Unfortunately, such complimentary efforts and others are dismissed outright because the word nuclear is involved.
Mr. Hickey’s SD Trade Ideas would work well with renewable energy. There could be a much needed way for employment and energy solutions all rolled into one. There are spaces that are in public lands for development into renewable energy sources. This place would be perfect for it all. We are “The Sunshine State” lets bring that back.
What it would take is the political will to make renewable energy our laser focus. Dump all the blather about a nuke hole in Philip like the old thinking it is. Seal the old boreholes that are probably leeching poison in the water and air and lets put a tent over that circus. The real progress would be in jobs, real jobs for the future with renewable energy.
If we created 100 jobs in Rapid City for people to figure out how to build machines that could override the laws of thermodynamics and channel the existing energy, recycle it if you will, from a simple spin of their very heavy but very accurately balance central spinning cylinder suspended on a free magnetic field, we’d have 100 more jobs in Rapid City and the renewable energy people would be happy that we were making progress.
Here’s an interesting article, talking about jobs, pointing out the similarities between South Dakota and New Hampshire – who are both tied for lowest unemployment rate in the nation.
Both states have a labor shortage. NH has a labor shortage because they have filled up their state with as many residents as they are willing to hold. SD has a labor shortage because people don’t really want to live here. So, when there is demand for economic expansion, companies can’t find the staff, locally, needed to expand – and so, they go and expand their operations somewhere else instead.
We have to start think of SD’s low unemployment rate as more of a problem than a feather in our caps, as it’s indicative of why we can’t grow our state domestic product – like most everyone else has over the last few decades.
Stupid borehole BS isn’t going to solve squat in the jobs department.
Oops! here’s the link: http://www.marketplace.org/2016/12/12/economy/low-unemployment-rate-new-hampshire-creates-labor-shortage
But Mc Taggart – you KNOW – ALL the traditional generators are OVER BUILT. Go tell them they are wasting $$$.
SD Conservatives hope to God for this new Federal borehole tit to suck on. Phony capitalists they are.
Richard, Bob ignores facts like those.
McTaggart – PS – right along with the persistent ignoring of storage alternative to great lead/acid batteries is the leaving out of an important renewable energy source from all of your comments; TIDAL. Persistent, relentless, predictable, MOON POWER.
It is very convenient to your positons to exclude the totality of the possibilities and alternatives – isn’t it? Please – open up the grey cells.
Richard, it is nauseatingly convenient – no doubt.
I’d written:
Jerry writes:
The CIA’s World Factbook describes Turkey as 99.8% Muslim, Jerry:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2122.html
My reference to “Muslim Turkey” doesn’t demonstrate ignorance, hatred, ugliness, fakery or indifference.
Kurt,
It would have been better if you had said Islamic Turkey. :)
Mr. Hickey,
Before building a 1/3 to 1/2 Billion dollar prison for the unconnected in South Dakota, many would point out that Colorado has had medical marijuana for nearly two decades, outright legalization for 5 years. So, other than a glitch with edible dosages that has since been rectified, where has the sky fallen in Colorado? They have emptied their prisons of pot possessors, thereby countering the overcrowding and making more room for killers and rapists (of which, they have fewer since decriminalization). They have collected hundreds of millions in taxes from people who complain little of those taxes, and put that money into schools, infrastructure, and fun stuff too. Their economy is great because they are progressive and many thinking people are moving there, not to smoke pot, but because they want to be around HONESTLY LIBERAL, caring, human beings and critical thinkers who want the World to be a better place without inflicting more harm than good. Legalized Pot is a by-product of love.
@Adam: “NH has a labor shortage because they have filled up their state with as many residents as they are willing to hold. SD has a labor shortage because people don’t really want to live here”
That’s bs. New Hampshire’s population growth has slowed since the Recession of ’08 just as South Dakota’s has. South Dakota’s population has actually grown a bit faster than New Hampshire’s since 2000 (2010 – SD +7.9%, NH +6.5%) while NH’s population has stalled since 2010 ( 2015 – SD +5.4%, NH +1.1%)
“it’s indicative of why we can’t grow our state domestic product – like most everyone else has over the last few decades.” Still more bs.
Where are you finding your numbers? SD’s GDP is growing faster than NH’s. South Dakota’s GDP clocked in at +9.86% for a 5 year change and 1.8% 1 year a change (’15) while NH’s numbers lag behind with a 5.23% 5 year change and a measly +.79% change (’15).
Yeah, it actually does Evans, it reeks of ignorance, racism and religiophobia in particular. I just got out a current, hours old map of the world and nowhere does it say “Muslim” Turkey. Your clear dog whistle is that and I stand by my account of your being an ignorant fake. Your religiophobia is clear and despicable that shows exactly what a “fundamentalist” fake Christian you are.
I noted something else about you in my description, you have a complete disregard for all human life. There was no compassion for the victims that were murdered by the reported Santa Claus because you thought they were just that 99.8% Muslim. The reports are that 5 of the 39 were Turkish Nationals, the remaining 34 were from all over the world. Anyone who has had any kind of education would or should be able to tell you that in a place, that is supposed 99.8% Muslim, wold never allow alcohol as that is forbidden. Yet, here were revelers from all over the world at a public nightclub drinking alcohol and having fun when your condoned murders took place. So Evans, I am really really determined to stay with my accurate description of you. Here is a word that you might want to look up, it is called secular, as a NATO member, Turkey falls under that umbrella. The leaders of the country itself have stated that publicly, from late April 2016 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36149201
Troy, welcome to Evans plunge into religious hate. Good boy, now keep rolling over.
You think I mean lead-acid batteries instead of something like lithium-ion based or alternative battery designs being developed? The only good thing about lead-acid is that it is recyclable. Supercapacitors may help with some of the quick bursts that are needed.
Traditional baseload power is somewhere between 30 and 40% efficient thermodynamically. Renewables would require quite a lot more overbuilding because their capacity factors are 20-40% depending on the day. Nuclear is currently over 90%.
But we would definitely need less capacity if the more efficient reactors and power plants were built. However there is a lot of NIMBY and BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody). So I am very much in favor of building the advanced reactors that get above 50% efficiency.
Tidal power in South Dakota? Really? Are you serious? Quoting Adam: Bwahahahaha!
If you want avant-garde kind of energy storage, then you and Jerry should approve of the use of trains to store energy by gravity. You need a lot of room to do this, the right topography, and unique infrastructure. But when you have energy the train moves uphill, and when you need energy you run the train downhill.
Unlike pumped hydro it doesn’t require water (I hear that is a valued commodity…but I am apparently no expert). Like pumped hydro it relies upon gravity, so the rate at which the energy is released is constrained.
McTaggart – if energy needs be generated locally only – and is not transportable over long distances, what are all those high voltage lines doing going from Western ND to Chicago? Are you implying that tidal generated electrical current cannot reach beyond Las Vegas? Seriously?
And who says that water need be potable to be affected by gravity? Do you have any idea how many BILLIONS of cubic feet of “waste” salt water is being pumped deep INTO the earth by oil and gas extractors in ND alone? Please sir – take the blinders off. Broaden your horizons. Look around you ate what is happening in the world.
Yes, avant-garde would be energy with both storage and perpetual motion. The tram could store and be powered by magnetic power sources using renewable sources. South Dakota would be a perfect place for the kind of perpetual motion/renewable power because of our landscape. The residual materials utilized in the construction of the recycled material, would then be formed into a new steel/aluminum that would be developed to address that, perhaps for building structural material. Here is an example of a power motor that can operate on its own standing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHW6b1aFPfU
I also would argue your reluctance to utilize pumped hydro as the kind of motor shown, with gear reducers, could be used to simply pump water to an elevation that would then be released into a turbine to generate power much like now exists in the theory of dams and their simple elevation differences.
Bonus point. No nukes! Beautiful, no?
The philosophy behind a lot of renewable energy development is distributed grid management, not centralized power plants that push energy over long distances.
And you are right, long transmission lines produce an inefficiency. That is why the small reactors will help in this regard. But there are also efficiencies from building in bulk…so we need more of a balance than we have today (which is primarily centralized in nature).
Are you going to be able to build enough tidal energy to overcome the transmission losses up here when there is more wind locally? Are you going to have any resistance from locals and fisherman and tourists and environmentalists to any such construction down there?
Tidal energy as part of a mix is fine. I’m not against using what we have available to us, but I am against using one energy source only in a manner that does not align with its true nature. For instance, trying to do everything with tidal energy and no energy storage whatsoever will not work, because the lunar cycles do not match up with our electrical demands.
Also not good for energy security…take out the tidal energy sources, shut down our electrical grid. Good news, they can use submarines to do that.
Jerry, you have to rely on gravity to provide the power from pumped hydro. Otherwise you are parasitically using energy to force water through the generators. You can play around with the size of the piping a bit, but that also introduces different forms of turbulence too.
This means that pumped hydro does not align with our supply and demand (which includes a lot of peaks and valleys). Better to mix it in with other forms of energy storage.
Perpetual motion is not possible. You will lose energy due to friction on the train tracks, and any pumped hydro design will generate turbulence that takes away some of the stored energy and produces heat and sound instead.
Also when we try to use these renewable energy sources in a manner that does not befit their true nature, we currently burn fossil fuels to make up the difference.
Why? Because the energy business is a business, and if they don’t provide energy when the consumer demands it, they don’t stay in business very long.
Your carbon-free options are to find a way to do energy storage to work with renewables, finding ways to use excess renewable energy when there is no demand or they exceed the demand, or build new nuclear that can load-follow and displace natural gas….or all of the above. Solar energy 24/7/365 from space would be the other option…but that won’t happen any time soon.
So don’t act surprised that one consequence of being on the all-renewable train is that more carbon is produced as our energy demands increase. The population is still increasing as is our use of electricity in technology. And if you don’t take care of the life-cycle issues that I keep harping on for renewables, the sustainability train won’t be going very far either.
Mr. Hickey’s trade ideas would fit perfectly into renewable energy solutions. I hope that he gets better from whatever it is that ails him. South Dakota needs thinkers rather than naysayers. We have had plenty of the latter for the last umpteenth legislative sessions.
I expect more wind to be built in the state and a good deal of that energy to be shipped elsewhere, instead of finding better ways to use it locally. We do burn a lot of natural gas for heat in agriculture…so that would be one area I would look at for using excess wind energy.
Don, there certainly are complications involved with a chronically low employment rate. It is well recognized that NH has run out of land for newly permitted residential development while it has not been open to creating greater population density in current residentially zoned areas.
South Dakota conservatives think thelowest unemployment rate in country is just feathers in our cap until we’ve made a full Native head dress. Economics is a little more complicated than that and the link I provided certainly worth everyones time.
Doc., what about this (possibly solving all energy needs of the future): Brilliant Light Power’s SunCell
*UNemployment rate
You have to keep track of energy in vs. energy out (no data is provided here). If the process is making more energy than you put in to operate the device, then you may have something. If you are putting in more than you get out, then stay away….or better yet….run away.
So it is not clear at the moment what the fundamental physical process is that actually generates the energy. Anything nuclear-related (say photons interact with nuclei, or photon-photon interaction, or electron-positron annihilation, or some kind of fusion occurring by accelerating something to high speeds, etc.) would produce high energy particles, and thus radiation protection would be in order. I don’t see any of that in the video.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_Light_Power
Read this for fun. Sounds like a new cold fusion process.
It seems to me that the only point of contention on Brilliant Light Power is “how does this work?” not so much “does it work?”
I really don’t know, but what a fancy concept and model.
Yeah, but remember they are trying to gather investors….
Regular fusion works in the Sun, but that isn’t ready for commercial power generation yet. I think the basic hurdle is trying to remove waste products quickly enough to sustain the reaction with fresh fuel. The other is that you need to input a lot of energy to overcome the repulsion of positive nuclei.
You still produce radioactive material, but the duration of the radioactivity is much less.
This article has a plot regarding the utility of each kind of energy storage that we know of at the moment. You need a solution that can handle three major areas: response, grid support, and bulk management.
https://cosmosmagazine.com/technology/despite-the-hype-batteries-aren-t-the-cheapest-way-to-store-energy-on-the-grid
Pumped hydro helps with one of the three, the bulk management.
Very good article that proves without a doubt, the complete value of pumped hydro as stated.
“Pumped hydro, on the other hand, is a relatively inexpensive storage technology (already at around A$100 per kWh) as it can store large amounts of energy using a very inexpensive material.
All you need is some water and the means to pump it uphill. So while it can’t be used everywhere, there are many places in the National Electricity Market where it is possible. There are already 1,500 megawatts of pumped hydro in the market (Shoalhaven, Wivenhoe and Tumut 3).”
Now, will we be smart enough to realize the facts?
Mr. Freed! “Legalized pot is a by-product of love.”
Isn’t that like saying “Demons from the 5th dimension are a by-product of extra-marital sex.”
Jerry, we live in Trump land (in both time and place). Realization of facts doesn’t happen here much because SD conservatives already know more than the Generals about ISIS, and they KNOW those dad blamed Chinamen and Al Gore are just RAKING in the money from the hoax that they co-created which the world calls “global warming.” South Dakota is certain, now, that Putin/Russia are nothing but allies of the U.S. – and just because those damn city people aren’t as smart as they think they are, South Dakota is 100% intelligent and correct on these issues.
Yeah, and by the way, South Dakota conservatives just entirely disavowed their previously stated family values when they voted for a guy who hired nannies to raise his kids, had 3 divorces, and cheated on many woman, etc.
Everything South Dakota liked about George W. Bush were all reasons that they should have HATED Trump. Turns out, SD conservatives are all hypocrites on near infinite extents. And now they want to suck on the federal tit of a borehole cause they don’t have a damn clue how to create jobs outside of sucking on the East and West coasts tits.
Oh yeah, and they wax on and off and on again the benefits of the 4 jobs that Powertech/Azarga might produce like that’s real economic development.
SD conservatives could think big enough to fight their way out of a paper bag.
Well, I am happy to see that at least we have gotten Dr. McTaggart to take a step or two to the side from his usual position of simply waving his hand at “batteries” and proclaiming all alternative energy to be thereby untenable.
Here’s yet another word to ponder when it comes to grid energy production; “geothermal”.
Or how about simply getting back on board with what started to happen pre-Regan under Carter – and incentivizing the construction of more passive solar housing design? Geez, man – not all our answer lie in million-years old carbon or fissile rare earths. In fact – those two elements ought to be MINOR contributors, not the sole focus.
You are the most angry solar-loving wind-blowing individual I have ever read, Mr. Schriever, but I like the cut of your geothermal jib. Therein, good sir, lies the need to drill some serious boreholes down into the bowels of the earth for something more than just learned science.
Mark my words, if you don’t currently feel shame for helping make Trump happen to America, you most certainly will, in time.
SDGOP sucks a big fat one.
I’d written:
Jerry writes:
A well-educated English-speaker ought to be able to tell you that there shouldn’t be a comma after the word place in your last sentence above, and that the word supposed should be supposedly, and that you misspelled the second occurrence of the word would, and that the verb would allow needs a subject.
Troy Jones writes:
Actually I’m pretty sure a Muslim country isn’t considered an Islamic country unless the government officially says it is.
A well-educated English-speaker ought to be able to tell you that there shouldn’t be a comma after the word place in your last sentence above, and that the word supposed should be supposedly, and that you misspelled the second occurrence of the word would, and that the verb would allow needs a subject.
Well educated or not, Kurt, you got his point I take it. Sentence structure and punctuation be damned.
Kurt, fair point. I was trying to make a joke.
Richard, I’ve always said that wind and solar are fine when used appropriately. But trying to force wind and solar to do everything today only results in emitting carbon via natural gas burning.
Then I get blamed for being anti-renewable if I point out that being pro-renewable is not exactly the same as being anti-carbon. Same thing if I suggest that renewable energy should pay attention to recycling and their environmental impacts.
If you replace coal with renewables plus natural gas, you emit less carbon….until the demand picks up as the population grows, and you wind up emitting more total carbon than before. If you replace nuclear with renewables plus natural gas, you emit more carbon from the get-go.
My preference is that we should be generating a lot more of our electricity from nuclear energy…particularly if we hope to displace oil from transportation. Then use renewables and energy storage to make up the difference between supply and demand.
Iceland does a lot with geothermal, but many Greens do not like it. Yes it is clean, but they don’t like the fact that they end up using a lot more energy because it is clean. More access to large volumes of clean energy means more of a pro-growth economy.
If only there were some kind of borehole that could be drilled in South Dakota where they could evaluate the potential for geothermal energy…..
A great idea, Doc. And, imagine if the feds called it a science project and paid for the whole darned hole?
All the hospitals in my city have geothermal heated sidewalks and most parking lots.
“If you didn’t know it was there, you’d never know there is a well in my front yard,” Professor Lund says. “You’d have to lift up the metal plate to see it. Unlike solar and wind power generators, geothermal power systems are invisible in the finished design of a building and are available 24/7. They’re not visible like solar panels and wind turbines.”
http://www.colorado.edu/engineering/profile/tapping-earths-natural-heat-source
Heck, when they are done, they could even plug up that hole.
I sure would like to have all of our sidewalks heated and ice-free. Too bad we can’t use wind or geothermal to do that around here….would make too much sense.
I’d written:
Troy Jones writes:
I’d assumed you meant your comment in a lighthearted way, Troy, but it inspired me to do a bit of research, and I decided to share my findings. It’s all good.
Evans, I still fail to see where “Muslim” is denoted as a description of any country on the round globe (contrary to your belief of the world being flat). Nowhere do I find that. I have looked at Indonesia, the Middle East and the closest I have come to that is Iran. Iran was actually called Persia that showed on the maps until 1935, when it was officially changed to Iran.
I also note that Iran now calls itself the Islamic Republic of Iran, not the Muslim Republic of Iran, so there is that. Note that the parliament of the Islamic Republic of Iran, has representatives from both the Jewish and the Christian Faith, as member representatives. “Iran’s parliaments have always been diverse, including women and many ethnic minorities. It also designates five seats for religious minorities, including Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians, proportionate to their populations”. Holy Cow! Now back to Turkey. “Turkey is a nation straddling eastern Europe and western Asia with cultural connections to ancient Greek, Persian, Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires. Cosmopolitan Istanbul, on the Bosphorus Strait, is home to the iconic Hagia Sophia, with its soaring dome and Christian mosaics, the massive 17th-century Blue Mosque and the circa-1460 Topkapı Palace, former home of sultans. Ankara is Turkey’s modern capital.”
Turkey is an important NATO member that has shown in its past to be an important friend of the West. During the Korean War, Turkey was represented with a brigade of some 5,400 ground troops that saw action there from the start of the war until it finished. Turkey was one of 16 United Nation members to actually engage the enemy there.
Turkey has had terrorist attacks on its soil for some time now. Evans and Troy want to paint it something other than what it is. They still must feel that Turkey somehow betrayed the USA because they refused to let W. attack Iraq through Turkey in the beginning of the fiasco called Iraq.
What is amazing to me fellers, is that a few thousand guys in a faraway desert can make you such a bed wetters , or better put…turkey’s.
Mr. Hickey’s assessment of Trade Ideas is still what we are missing. We are missing the discussion about the economy and jobs in general. The wealth gap continues to widen with no real jobs on the horizon with employment being static for some time now. Workers have to maintain two jobs and sometimes three part time to make ends meet. In rural areas of South Dakota, farm and ranch opportunities have all but dried up with the economic free fall of products contributing to the hammering of main street. The 35 ghost members of the GOED should materialize and go to work on solving a gold mine of economic gain right here inside the state’s borders.
Mr. Hickey’s vision of economic gain for all of South Dakota make sense as it is clear he understands the fake unemployment numbers being presented as a lie for what our real unemployment numbers are. We are a failed state being led by a failed legislature doomed to continued failure without proper leadership. Right along with the GOED and its leadership past and present, your failures reek.
I’d written:
Jerry writes:
Exactly, Jerry. Turkey is a Muslim country because the vast majority of its people are Muslims. Iran is an Islamic country because its government officially says it is.
Jerry writes:
I’m not sure about Troy, but I mainly just feel that Turkey is betraying its regional heritage by trying to restrict Christian worship at the historical church of Saint Nicholas in the city where he lived.
“In Turkey’s Home of St. Nick, Far From North Pole, All Is Not Jolly” (New York Times, December 17): http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/world/middleeast/turkeys-santa-claus-.html
To claim any country IS one religion or another does nothing but marginalize every religious minority and allow the religion in power to make their beliefs into law.
It’s a misguided conversation.
Adam,
So, we hesitate to say the truth because it will marginalized the minority and give more power to the majority? You have got to be kidding me.
The Christians and Muslims in Turkey know it is a Muslim Country. Whether we say it out loud doesn’t make a lick of difference.
Evans, I see why you and Troy are enamored by St. Nick, he was a wealthy man who bought himself a stairway to heaven just like your boy Don. Yep, they both show that you can damned near buy your way into anything you want. All you need is money, the great divide between wealth and the rest of us is condoned by you both.
Here is the secular Turkey you hate. You will note that the country has a pretty good standard of living. http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/turkey/turkey_people.html
You will note that there are 99 plus percentage of mostly Sunni Muslims in the country with also Christian and Jews. So there is that. I notice that you both do not seem to have a problem with Saudi Arabia and their violent obsession with public be headings and the like, they are mostly Muslim as well, why is that? You should know that Saudi Arabia is actually the likely place of the Garden of Eden that is spoken of in your Book. You do realize that the government there is destroying any kind of ancient evidence of traces from all religions including Islam.
Women do not need to wear head scarves in Turkey unless entering a Mosque. We here in the US of A used to force women to wear head gear to go to church with hats, scarves, gloves covered shoulders, you know or should know how that worked.
But they have that oil that you drink with out looking to see the history there. More ignorance on your parts.
St. Nick or Santa Claus is just a guy who had a whole lot of wealth. He was not at the last supper, nor was he anything other than a rich guy who knew how to invest in the church. The next thing that you are gonna be telling me is that our new brothers in Russia are Christian.
Side note, One of my son’s visited the Blue Mosque in Turkey. The place is breathtaking he said, take a look at some pictures of that place. Incredible. You’re welcome.
Right On, Jerry. I have many friends who’ve vacationed in Turkey, some friends who’ve stayed a year and a young female family member (from ESDakota) who was a foreign exchange student, there. Assessment? It’s a pretty nice place; highly welcoming to USA travelers.
Jerry, quite rant which started from Kurt giving a short summary of the decline in religious liberty in Turkey and me making a joke. I have no idea why you’d be able to make any conclusion of my impression of Turkey or Saudi Arabia separately or relative to each other. Are you ok?
Troy, I was not kidding at all. Take some more time to think about what I wrote. If you still think I am kidding – then your an idiot.
Jerry writes:
Saint Nicholas unintentionally became famous for giving his wealth away, but according to the Bible, that doesn’t buy anyone a stairway to heaven. Also, I didn’t campaign or vote for Donald Trump.
I have huge problems with Saudi Arabia, but not because of Muslims in general.
Traditional evangelical Christians generally believe the continents were rearranged around 2500 BC during the worldwide flood described in the seventh chapter of Genesis. The third chapter of Second Peter says that “the world at that time was destroyed.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+7&version=NASB
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3&version=NASB
Actually there’s credible historical evidence that Saint Nicholas attended the First Council of Nicea where the Nicene Creed was written, also in what’s now Turkey and about 80 miles from the site of this week’s massacre.
Many of them are.
Adam writes:
“Your” an idiot, Troy.*
*you’re
Adam,
I was hoping you were kidding. I guess sometimes hope can be misplaced.
Evans writes that the earth is 6,000 years old. As the continents shifted 2,500 years ago. Your and idiot that is for sure, according to science anyhoo.
St. Nick was a wealthy man that purchased a position. This was not heard of in those days as it is now, just a different time with different gold.
It is impossible to have differences with Saudi Arabia other than the Muslim religion as that would be like being angry at Finland for eating fish.
If St. Nick attended anything it was the further his position of wealth. You know, spread the money around to make your voice louder, happens all the time. See South Dakota politics.
Many of the Turkish folks are Christian and Jews, so what? You take that information and 6 bits, then you can get a cup of coffee at Wall Drug. Tell them jerry sent ya.
Adam wrote that Troy is an idiot. I thank Adam for his astute vision, as I could not have written it better.
In Genesis, it claims the world was destroyed. This is impossible as there are many things that are dated much older than 2500 hundred years. Your Book is not correct, sorry. Keep it classy though Evans. The other Book declares differently, “While Quran 70.4 compares time on Earth with time in wormholes (1 day vs 50,000 years). (The Christian Bible puts the creation of Earth on day one; making the age of Earth equal to the age of the universe. So the age of the universe according to the Bible is six thousand years)”
The Muslims were some of the first to study the universe through astrology and were able to write it down cohesively because they used the alphabet, you know, the abc’s. They were able to do engineering feats that were over the 2500 year destruction thingy you blather about as well. I have nothing against Christianity as I have nothing against Islam any of the other great religions. Yours though, it intolerant of anything other than a narrow view of what fits your plate. Time for you to go argue Cory on abortion.
Evans, ever wonder about the tools Noah used to build the big ol boat, me too?http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2016/03/ken-ham-explains-noah-probably-had-more-sophisticated-tools-than-we-do-today.html?utm_source=%5B!%5D%20Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NL%20Nonreligious&utm_content=5538
Probably had one of those generators from Harbor Freight with tools made in China.
Jerry says:
Traditional evangelical Christians generally believe the continents were rearranged around 4,500 years ago (2500 BC) during the worldwide flood described in the seventh chapter of Genesis.
If Saint Nicholas had been as greedy and arrogant as you suggest, I’m wondering how you’d say he could have gone virtually unnoticed outside his own city during his lifetime and become famous throughout much of Europe after his death.
Assuming you mean 4,500 years, there are many things in the first five chapters of Genesis that are dated much older, but that doesn’t make the claim that the world was destroyed impossible.
Astrology can be dated to long before the birth of Christ. The Quran wasn’t even written until after AD 600.
You seem to be claiming that people who based their religion on a book written after AD 600 were performing engineering feats around 2500 BC. Feel free to clarify.
Yes I have. I’ve also wondered about the tools builders used to construct the Great Pyramid of Khufu at Giza.
In a comment Cory may have removed, Jerry apparently wrote:
Methuselah was Noah’s grandparent.
It’s true that the math doesn’t jive, but it does jibe.
The dinosaurs came in on the sixth day of creation. A few were fossilized at the end of the flood, but they didn’t technically turn to stone.
The New Testament passage about creation and the flood that I’d quoted above was written by the Apostle Peter. Ironically Roman Catholic doctrine claims Peter was the first pope.
Troy, the only way your hopes could have been misplaced, on that one, is if you’re cognitively impaired.
Evans, you are correct. The earth is 6,000 years old and flatter than a piece of paper that has not been crumpled. You can call Turkey whatever you want to call that NATO country. I am with the Pope on this as Peter just plagiarized it then. BTW, the math does not jive as it is fake, but in your mind it jibes and that is really all that matters.
Evans, now that I think of it, Plato and the lost continent of Atlantis would be fitting for the separation of the continents. Yes, that would indeed be the time and place. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/atlantida_mu/esp_atlantida_12.htm
Evans, Turkey seems to be the place where this ark supposedly ended up. How could that be in a country that is 99% Muslim? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3524676.stm
Pyramid workers used these simple tools “The workmen would use a number of different tools to cut the blocks, including copper pickaxes and chisels, granite hammers, dolerite and other hard stone tools. The finer, white limestone employed in the pyramids and mortuary temples was not as easy to quarry, and had to be found further from the building site.”
Of course, the Pyramids are made of stone whereas a huge ship, to hold all of those dinosaurs and everything else, would have taken more than a chisel to build. But it is a great story for the children to use their imaginations on.
Evans, I show how the Pyramids are constructed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQk_yBHre4
I’d written:
The Nicene Creed was written in AD 325 at the First Council of Nicaea, not Nicea.
I’d written:
Cory indicates in an email that the comment may have disappeared due to a server glitch.
Jerry writes:
Christians never generally taught or believed the earth was flat. The myth that we did was fabricated by Darwinists in the 1800s, and the authors of school textbooks promulgated that myth for more than a century before it was debunked in the 1990s.
Ironically Roman Catholic doctrine claims Peter was the first pope. He didn’t plagiarize creation and the flood because he was obviously referring to Genesis as his source.
If it were fake, then it would jive:
jive (verb): to talk jive
jive (noun): glib, deceptive, or foolish talk
Right, jibes with a b.
I’m wondering why you’d say that.
It couldn’t, because Turkey isn’t 99% Muslim. It’s about 99.8% Muslim.
You link to a highly speculative You Tube video with the word were misspelled in its title.
Evans, it is always good to see a critique of oneself, you are good at it. I was raised a Christian, so it was typical of me to fear and believe everything that was said. There were somethings, actually most, that I thought were a lot of hooey, but went along with anyway. It seemed the older I got, the more it seemed to me that church was just for social gatherings to shoot the bull rather than listen to it, so I went until I left home to go to the military. I have seen to many things in my days on this 6,000 year old planet to make me deny anything to anyone. I only know what I believe and it is not that.
I think folks like yourself are great to have around because it gives proof that diversity is makes us all strong. I don’t have any feelings of hate, love or disgust towards you. I am very grateful though, that you do not represent me in government as you do not have the inner workings to be a fair moderator to make Solomon like judgement on social decisions.
You can believe what you want to believe Evans, who cares if you think the place is 6,000 years old except those of us who think that science is real and important to mankind’s future. Galileo was right and your kind was wrong. Science has proven that there was not a world wide flood, but a local one. Science has proven so many things that prove you are still wondering why the moon eats the sun in the late of day. Darkness scares the be jabbers out of you.
The misspelled word only shows that someone could be wrong Evans, those are words that you should live by as that is what religion teaches us, no? At least I was taught that in Sunday School and it stuck to me with only one birth. You have had more than one and neither seems to have helped you. Better make another run at it.
The cast in place blocks make perfect sense as the building materials were right there. The guy even shows it. The ark, no, too goofy. In fact, that is the story that made me skeptical when I was a kid. Life is funny like that.
If you think we live on a 6,000 year old Earth, you may as well believe the Earth is flat.
Only the churchiest consetvatives think the Bible trumps geology and every other acedemic feild.
“God put fake dinosaur fossils in the ground to test our faith.” and “Them scientists ain’t as smart as they think they are” – are the mantras of the mushiest brained people in America.
I am done being nice about it. If these 6,000 year old Earth people want stick their neck out, someone’s gotta take a slice at it. The time has come.
How F.ing long does it take for these people to learn about how the Earth and planets work? I knew more in 5th grade about the Solar system than those radical idiots seem to ever figure out. They’ve taken so much time to learn about the planets, I suggest that they’re just too stupid to learn. They need to stop pretending like they might be smart.
One of the pieces of evidence with regard to the age of the planet is based upon radioactivity. You have to assume that the laws of physics regarding nuclear decay must have changed very recently in order to throw off all of the estimates.
In other words, you must assume that the half-lives of uranium and potassium isotopes have not always been on the order of millions and billions of years.
Doc, why even take the time to explain anything complicated when these people (segment of conservatives) just won’t get it? Everyone else understands it just fine, but at this point, these people are proven to be completely unable to learn. When can we flunk these students and tell them that they are not cut out for learning like most people?
And why is it that ONLY conservatives believe such non-sense about evolution and the age of the Earth? What is it about the inability to understand basic irrefutable facts that resonates so well with the Republican Party? Quick answer: mushy brains.
It’s worth a shot :^).
One does not have to take my word for it either…take some data.
Jerry writes:
Yes, religion based on the Bible teaches that all of us except Christ can be wrong.
Adam writes:
I’ve never heard of any Christian claiming God put fake dinosaur fossils in the ground.
Robert McTaggart writes:
It’s refreshing to get an informed comment about the actual science, Robert.
Other explanations are possible, but it’s true that young-earth creationists don’t generally assume radioactive decay rates have always been as low as they are today. Some of the laws of physics may have changed, or divine intervention may have temporarily superseded the laws of physics during creation and the flood, or we may not yet fully understand all of the physical laws relevant to nuclear decay:
http://www.truedakotan.com/letterbox-science-includes-recognizing-assumptions/article_c211de08-0ba7-11e6-9f62-f74e57bae3ee.html
Adam asks:
It’s too late, Adam. I studied mathematics and science education at Dr. McTaggart’s institution of higher learning (long before he got there), and they graduated me with honor about a quarter of a century ago.
Kurt, we have run out of time when it comes to trying to make sense to the young-earth creationists as in order for one to trivialize global warming and/or what we should do about it, one must be open to a shamefully wrong explanation of how we got here to start with. These people are guilty as charged in my view.
It should no longer need be a priority to labor endlessly over making sense of complex issues to people who will, simply, never understand. Somehow, some way, idiots need to recognize the fact that they are one and allow the smart people an honest shot at solving humanities problems.
Unfortunately, elite intellectuals have been too afraid of being rude about facts and/or opinion as in their circles it’s seen as less-constructive and/or unprofessional. Unfortunately, out there in dumb dumb land, they tend to communicate facts and opinion with lots of superlatives and name calling. In fact, it’s built into their language for the most common communications. It’s a huge [my opinion] part of how they think about the world around them.
If smart people can’t speak the same language as the dumb dumbs, then they feel like we don’t even care about the things that matter to them the very most.
And so:
Today, America’s intellectual community sleeps in the bed we made for ourselves – front row seats to the hot new made for TV special: The Rise of the Trumptards.
Evans and his crowd use a flashlight and a incandescent light to check on light years. They go out when the moon eats the sun and walk very quickly on the flat earth surface. With the flashlight held at a 27 degree angle, the test subject will stay counting to ten over and over again until mouth is dry. Somewhere, it has been argued among the young earthers, they suddenly stop and go back to the incandescent light bulb. They then turn that on for a length of time, again arguable and make a calculation on how many steps they have taken, divide that by 2 and then grab the light bulb for as long as they can while counting backward.
Much like Tommy Calahan, this is the formula that got Evans the honor of getting booted from that school he spoke of.
Here is the calculation A (flashlight) times foot steps equals___D______This is then divided by 2 equals ___U_____.The square root of D U equals ______M___squared______M___or DUMM add the time (even when grab time is changed it sequences to the equal__Y_ or DUMMY_ This has always been the answer for the Evans crowd as the math has proven without doubt. Science is for making beer, the real deal is Evans math. It always always works out to 6,000 for a total. Never fails.
https://books.google.de/books?id=eIdG36ZHE0gC&pg=PA227&lpg=PA227&dq=an+idiots+guide+to+the+age+of+the+universe&source=bl&ots=XQpy1QksD5&sig=rCz3kAAOcDMXl0klM5naObtfFxc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjxqLaf8rbRAhXK7IMKHdTnDFUQ6AEIITAB#v=onepage&q=an%20idiots%20guide%20to%20the%20age%20of%20the%20universe&f=false
What in the most unholy, bloody, crazy Hell in this whole entire tiny little world could these people have going for them?!
Oh yeah, I forgot for second, silly me [forehead slap], radical Christians so dedicated to saving babies that they turn out in mass for Republican candidates COME HELL OR HIGH WATER.
My gosh, those are some stupid f.ing GD people – I had no idea about their “math.” Jesus Christ surely CRIES when He considers His failure(s) in attempting to guide people that stupid to any sort of constructive end.
Without GOP harnessing these [unable to learn] demographics, America might not have even seen one Republican President since Dwight D. Eisenhower.
[acknowledges cosmic distance from original topic]
On radioactive decay rates: a worldview that has to resort to positing a mysterious, unexplained change in the laws of physics is an unhelpful and unreliable worldview.
It would be awesome if we could change radioactive decay rates. Then all of these issues surrounding nuclear waste disposal would go away tomorrow.
Doc, that is a very good point. Yucca Mountain would be just a mountain. Sadly, that is not the case though. Evans and his crowd put that danger of the lack of critical thinking forward though with enthusiasm.
I have no personal issue with religion and those who practice it. My issues come from those who radicalize religion to fit their own narrow way of thinking. Maybe a look into some thinking like this would help show that science and religion can coexist and actually thrive.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-wolper/genesis-and-science_b_500201.html The rest of the world is in tune to the needs of the created universe by teaching science, math and critical thinking. The United States is waving adios to education, in particular to science and math. That is why the H1B immigrants that come to this country from countries who believe in science and math, do so well. They are the ones making the discoveries that help mankind as a whole while we discuss such mundane, easily disproved ideas of a young earth in modern terms. Sadly, the United States is taking a huge step backward once again to deny science and math its place in addressing the needs of progress. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/stringent-h1b-visa-norms-in-us-to-impact-non-it-workers/articleshow/56437254.cms The bulb here is getting dimmer.
Unfortunately Evans and the rest of us may actually see the great flood take place in the same place it did in Genesis, Iraq. My youngest was in Mosul in 2006 and saw this dam up close. He had said that it was in bad shape then so 10 years on, it is critical. Fail, it shall as it is built to do exactly that from the time of the first idea of it. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/02/a-bigger-problem-than-isis
Adam,
Adam: “It should no longer need be a priority to labor endlessly over making sense of complex issues to people who will, simply, never understand. Somehow, some way, idiots need to recognize the fact that they are one and allow the smart people an honest shot at solving humanities problems.
Am I correct to presume you think of your self in the group of smart people to which you refer? What are you part of the “Master Race” to which the rest of need to pledge fidelity and subservience?
Heil Adam!!
I don’t think it is all about the bulb getting dimmer. Math avoidance (if not literature avoidance, science avoidance, etc.) needs to be reduced.
Too often people only receive or seek input that aligns with their beliefs. Believe me, if I were wanting to find somewhere on the web where everybody agreed with me…I probably wouldn’t go here ;^).
Of course, if you want to find agreement with everyone, then you should talk to yourself in front of a mirror.
Try talking to someone about the ACA and then talk about Obamacare. You will find in many many instances, the argument is most likely to be that the two are seen as completely different from one another. I dunno if that is getting dimmer, but it sure does not seem very bright.
Troy, hahaha. You funny guy.
Find some proactive approaches for you and your conservatives brethren to deal with global warming, or get used to the world knowing for a fact that y’all are dumb.
It’s only the whole human race that’s on the line. Need more time to learn about it? Youre too late, and no one actually expect y’all to learn sh!t from shinola anymore.
Don is dropping like an anvil 37% approval on his way to 30%, da base.
Adam writes:
The problems of humanity are humanity’s problems, Adam, not “humanities” problems. I knew more in third grade about the difference between a possessive and a plural than you seem to have ever figured out.
The young-earth view that the ice age ended around 2000 BC definitely leads to a different conclusion about whether global warming is accelerating or slowing.
Your criticism of “dumb dumbs” for name-calling suggests a double standard.
Jerry links to page 227 here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=eIdG36ZHE0gC&pg=PA227
On that page, it says this:
Cory writes:
You have to resort to a mysterious, unexplained “Big Bang” and “cold dark matter” and even an “Oort cloud” in your worldview. A change in the laws of physics is only one of several possible explanations for a change in radioactive decay rates (an explanation I regard as relatively unlikely), and a change in radioactive decay rates is only one of several possible explanations for present isotope ratios (albeit the explanation I currently regard as most likely).
Jerry writes:
Modern science was born amid the rapid spread of traditional evangelical Christianity in the 1500s and 1600s, and it has deep roots in the conviction that beauty and order can be discovered in the universe because our loving Creator has put them here. Those who rejected the Bible and insisted on millions of years of earth history didn’t get a firm foothold on most scientific institutions until the mid 1800s. Since then, unfortunately, those with an anti-Christian axe to grind have been attracted to certain fields of scientific endeavor in greater and greater numbers.
In the tenth chapter of Mark, Christ Himself refers to the first chapter of Genesis when He says God made humans male and female “from the beginning of creation.” If God had made humans male and female billions or millions of years after the beginning of creation, that would mean either that Christ was wrong or that we have no accurate record of what Christ taught. In either case, claiming to be a Christian wouldn’t make much sense.
The flood in Genesis destroyed the world and very likely rearranged the continents around 2500 BC. Even if it had been fictional, it very explicitly wouldn’t have been limited to Iraq.
Robert McTaggart writes:
Ironically everybody here agrees with you about that, Robert. :-)
Thanks Kurt…I thought it was just me :^).
If photons produced during the Big Bang were at thermal equilibrium with the rest of the universe, their frequency distribution would obey a Bose-Einstein probability curve with a temperature equal to roughly 2.73 Kelvin. This happens to be the temperature of the cosmic ray background.
The good news is that we can measure the cosmic ray background, the bad news is that we don’t really have much visible evidence for how the big bang occurred (too much stuff in the way)…but a “Big Bang” is the simplest theory for explaining what has happened. Given that galaxies are flying away from each other, an earlier universe must have taken up less volume.
While we cannot go back in time or replicate a Big Bang in a laboratory, there are pieces that we can put together. Accelerator physics may help, but at some point you need too large of an accelerator to get to big bang energies. It may be we have not produced an experiment with the requisite pressures and temperatures yet.
A big puzzle is why there is more matter than antimatter in the universe, particularly when particle physics generates both in equal amounts today. That is one reason to study neutrinos: The way they oscillate into different kinds of neutrinos may explain why we have protons and not antiprotons flying around.
The other puzzle regards all of the dark energy and dark matter that we cannot see. If these are the result of particles, they do not seem to interact very well with regular matter. But something is altering the way galaxies rotate and the universe expands. Currently there is not a lot of hope for thinking that Einstein got relativity wrong.
Much of the astronomical evidence for things like the age of the universe if not evidence for the Big Bang rests on the fact that the speed of light is a constant. Every now and then somebody says they have an experiment where particles are violating the speed of light, and there is always an experimental error that is fixed as a result.
Adam writes:
I knew more in 5th grade about the Solar system than those radical idiots [young-earth creationists] seem to ever figure out… Somehow, some way, idiots need to recognize the fact that they are one and allow the smart people an honest shot at solving humanities problems.
Evans does not respond, only ridicules: The problems of humanity are humanity’s problems, Adam, not “humanities” problems. I knew more in third grade about the difference between a possessive and a plural than you seem to have ever figured out.
[When Evans has no answers to intelligent statements, he ridicules the writers spelling, and grammar instead of giving an answer. This is the kind of arrogance and bullying we have seen these same types of cultists do to women to subjugate them into submission.]
Kurt, we have run out of time when it comes to trying to make sense to the young-earth creationists as in order for one to trivialize global warming and/or what we should do about it, one must be open to a shamefully wrong explanation of how we got here to start with.
Evans does the cultist dance of denial: The young-earth view that the ice age ended around 2000 BC definitely leads to a different conclusion about whether global warming is accelerating or slowing.
{The answers that Evans gives is not even astonishing anymore. It is not ignorant, it is cultist.}
Unfortunately, out there in dumb dumb land, they tend to communicate facts and opinion with lots of superlatives and name calling… If smart people can’t speak the same language as the dumb dumbs, then they feel like we don’t even care about the things that matter to them the very most.
Your criticism of “dumb dumbs” for name-calling suggests a double standard.
[The mistake given, calling Evans a dumb dumb, implies that Evans is ignorant. This is far from the most accurate way of description. Evans belongs to a cult, think of Jim Jones and his followers drinking suicidal Kool-Aid in the jungles of South America. There is really no difference here.]
Jerry links to page 227 here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=eIdG36ZHE0gC&pg=PA227
On that page, it says this:
If you retrace the expansion of the universe, you find an age of about nine billion years. However, the estimates for the age of the oldest stars ranges [sic] from 11 to 18 billion years. It is obvious that no stars can be older than the universe. There are several possible explanations: the calculation of the expansion of the universe is wrong or our measurements are not accurate enough; the Big Bang theory is incorrect; or there is more mass in the universe than believed.
[Indeed, this is my thought exactly. I have a thought of exact infinity, by that I mean that there is no number of years on the universe. It lives up to the name infinity.]
Cory writes:
On radioactive decay rates: a worldview that has to resort to positing a mysterious, unexplained change in the laws of physics is an unhelpful and unreliable worldview.
You have to resort to a mysterious, unexplained “Big Bang” and “cold dark matter” and even an “Oort cloud” in your worldview. A change in the laws of physics is only one of several possible explanations for a change in radioactive decay rates (an explanation I regard as relatively unlikely), and a change in radioactive decay rates is only one of several possible explanations for present isotope ratios (albeit the explanation I currently regard as most likely).
[ Of course one has to resort to “Big Bang theory” We know of studies being done presently in Israel that indicate at least one large body of matter, struck the earth billions of years ago to create 3 moons that started to orbit our blue ball. This has long been a theory but with our advancements in scientific studies (no thanks to your cult) we now have models to show how it was done.]
Jerry writes:
Maybe a look into some thinking like this would help show that science and religion can coexist and actually thrive.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-l-wolper/genesis-and-science_b_500201.html
Modern science was born amid the rapid spread of traditional evangelical Christianity in the 1500s and 1600s, and it has deep roots in the conviction that beauty and order can be discovered in the universe because our loving Creator has put them here. Those who rejected the Bible and insisted on millions of years of earth history didn’t get a firm foothold on most scientific institutions until the mid 1800s. Since then, unfortunately, those with an anti-Christian axe to grind have been attracted to certain fields of scientific endeavor in greater and greater numbers.
In the tenth chapter of Mark, Christ Himself refers to the first chapter of Genesis when He says God made humans male and female “from the beginning of creation.” If God had made humans male and female billions or millions of years after the beginning of creation, that would mean either that Christ was wrong or that we have no accurate record of what Christ taught. In either case, claiming to be a Christian wouldn’t make much sense.
[Evans further embellishes the truth when he indicates “traditional evangelical Christianity”. This is false as it really meant the most powerful form of Christian religion in the world at that time, The Catholic Church, where the education process began to teach Priests and other important wealthy figures in the Church to read, write and documents. This was where they poured over and changed them to fit the times. New Testament, King James, etc. All of the works that were done in the early days of using the alphabet taken from other civilizations, were opinions. These opinions were more fairy tale than fact by a superstitious people who adored objects and other fake deities, so now, they had another, even more mysterious. The modern science that Evans goes on about, would burn you fanny at the state if you said the earth was round. They would crucify you if you dared say anything against the Church’s position on matters they had full control over, like science. When the first humans were first here, they evolved from hybrid apes and were quite small. The DNA we share, comes from Africa, so we are all Kenyans, in a sense, that has kept evolving. I guess that is why someone wrote that we are our brothers keeper, how fittingly beautiful]
Unfortunately Evans and the rest of us may actually see the great flood take place in the same place it did in Genesis, Iraq.
[The flood was local, kind of like the flood in Rapid City in 1972. This flood was a torrent that swept down Rapid Creek and beyond. The lower parts of what was then the known world, had always had floods, just like Rapid Creek did. What has been proved that happened in that particular time, was a flood that was like a 500 year flood that we call them now. The one there, was more like a thousand year flood. Since then, dams have been built as indicated by the story I linked to regarding Mosul, Iraq. This is an area that drains a huge portion of the Middle East with drainage to goes into the ocean, so it can and does run large amounts of water without a flood. The Euphrates river and its tributaries, are the longest and historically, most important systems in Western Asia. Very possible then that the tale begins with a barge or barges that were loaded with livestock for markets, along with grains, beer and some food stocks for retail sales. When the high water came, the barges were simply floated with the flow to find eventual safety until the water receded on the island of Bahrain. Perhaps Bahrain took its name from the time as well. Sheep bleating a bah and 40 days of rain, Bah rain, so there ya go Evans, another mystery solved. BTW, the Euphrates river system is much more than Iraq, it also drains that place we discussed called Turkey. The river system runs from Turkey to the Persian Gulf not to Turkey from the Persian Gulf. Floods have a certain characteristic, they run downstream, that is where the name comes from. Only salmon run upstream, go to Gettysburg and check it out how that is done. ]
The flood in Genesis destroyed the world and very likely rearranged the continents around 2500 BC. Even if it had been fictional, it very explicitly wouldn’t have been limited to Iraq.
Robert McTaggart writes:
Believe me, if I were wanting to find somewhere on the web where everybody agreed with me…I probably wouldn’t go here ;^).
Ironically everybody here agrees with you about that, Robert. :-)
Story #1: Two guys were sitting in silence on a hillside in Africa looking down at the valley below them.
At the same moment, both men saw a cheetah come from behind a tree and begin to chase down a zebra.
When it was over, one man turned to the other with a look of horror lamenting the violence and was surprised to see the other man smiling so he asked, “why are you smiling? Didn’t you see the violence and killing?”
His friend responded, “I didn’t notice. I was so in awe by the speed and grace of the cheetah.”
Story #2: A young Priest and his Bishop were walking in a street in Rome. At the same moment, both men saw a provocatively dressed prostitute. When the young Priest passed her, he bowed his eyes to avoid looking at her “presentation” of her body but the Bishop looked her in the eye, smiled and wished her a good day.
After they passed, the young Priest said, “Bishop, why did you gaze upon her with such admiration and greet her so warmly. She is a prostitute.”
The Bishop responded, “I didn’t notice she was a prostitute. I only saw a child of God.”
Robert McTaggart writes:
Thanks for your comments, Robert, but I’m going to nitpick a little. The fact that galaxies have been moving away from each other over a given period of time doesn’t logically imply that the universe must have taken up less volume prior to that time, much less that any “Big Bang” ever occurred.
To use a somewhat pedantic analogy, when a vehicle exits the westbound lanes of Interstate 90 at Sioux Falls, we might reasonably assume it was previously in the Brandon area. If it’s a mobile home or tour bus with out-of-state plates, we might even reasonably assume it was previously in Minnesota. Barring extraordinary circumstances, though, we probably can’t reasonably assume it was previously in Europe. In your words, there’s “too much stuff in the way.”
Creationists generally accept relativity. In fact, many of us believe that the earth may have been in a deep gravity well on the fourth day of creation and that gravitational time dilation may explain how light from distant stars reached the earth in a matter of hours (as measured from the earth’s surface). You’re presumably familiar with time dilation, Robert, but here’s a link for any readers who aren’t:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation
My impression is that creationists generally accept the constancy of the speed of light.
I’d written:
Jerry writes:
Modern science was born amid the rapid spread of traditional evangelical Christianity in the 1500s and 1600s. Some scientists influenced by traditional evangelical Christianity continued to identify as Roman Catholic, but Europeans at the time were abandoning Roman Catholicism in droves.
Thanks for your comments, Kurt.
Images from light traveling more than 6000 light years captured by telescopes show no evidence of galaxies with such a rapid acceleration to today’s speeds…unless you believe that the speed of light has changed over time. Accelerations due to dark energy are much milder and have occurred over 14 billion years or so.
So the fact that the galaxies have emanated from a smaller volume than today is not in doubt. If you want to argue about the mechanics of the big bang and how it occurred, feel free, but the new theory also has to explain various ratios of particles and isotopes that exist in the universe.
In either case, special or general relativity, you once again need to be moving at very high speeds very close to the speed of light for any significant time dilation, high enough to ionize atoms and generate Bremmstrahlung (radiation produced when accelerating or decelerating charged particles) or produce other particles. You also have to explain why astrophysics predicts the isotopic ratios we see today and why your theory does not. If you need a black hole, then I don’t know how the earth withstands those kinds of forces to obtain your desired time dilation.
Nevertheless, I don’t know how big bang physics has anything to do with treating your fellow man properly. It has more to do with how experimental evidence can be used to formulate a hypothesis that challenges the status quo….i.e. you can do an experiment and take the data yourself, but you should be getting the same answers that everyone else gets if the experiment is done fairly.
Yep, 6,000 years old and China was formed 2,500 years ago. hmm, math much? http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/ancientchina/tp/050211-Top-Ancient-Chinese-Inventions-And-Discoveries.htm
Actually it was the Hebrews who first came to Americas long before 2,500 years ago. http://hope-of-israel.org/hebinusa.htm
6,000-10,000 year old Earth “theory” is nothing but shamefully ridiculous. Nobody with a brain considers it even partly credible.
Adam, to be sure, Evans said 6,000 years at the maximum. Not a point spread of 6,000 to 10,000 he was specific. That is 2,190,000 days more or less as we are going from 1 January ? to 13 January 2017. In a couple of million days, all of what you see was made. Now the writers of Evans Book, Genesis, were Hebrew Scripture authors. This goes to the point of Hebrews discovering the America’s long before Columbus. So there is that.
Also, what about those Chinese guys and gals that were discovering stuff, scientific stuff, before the 6,000 years? Are they chopped liver? oy
Chinese inventions like silk and alcohol date back more than 6,000 years. The soon will take over where we decided to let them and lead us into even more advanced learning’s. That science and math stuff they do there is incredible, lucky for us, they send some students here for the money. http://www.davis.k12.ut.us/cms/lib09/UT01001306/Centricity/Domain/329/Chinese%20Inventions%20Article.pdf
While Amos was chipping away on a stone, these guys were using movable print on the paper they invented!
here’s a flood theory I like, for yah:
a deep Cheyenne River valley around the Black Hills south end and subsequent headward erosion of a deep Belle Fourche River valley around the Black Hills north end systematically captured a massive southeast-oriented flood which had been flowing across the Black Hills region and diverted the flood waters to the northeast. Flood waters were derived from a rapidly melting thick North American ice sheet, which had been located in a deep “hole” formed in the North American continent surface by deep glacial erosion and/or crustal warping caused by the ice weight. Emergence of the Black Hills upland occurred as flood waters were eroding the region and was the result of either deep flood water erosion of surrounding regions and/or of crustal uplift. https://geomorphologyresearch.com/2011/12/28/black-hills-landform-origins-south-dakota-and-wyoming-usa-overview-essay/
What about the dinosaur fossils? How in the crazy crap could a 6,000 year old Earther ever explain what dinosaur fossils are?
Evans, are you still a libertarian?
I’d written:
Robert McTaggart writes:
You’ve lost me here, Robert. I’m not sure where I’ve said anything about any rapid acceleration of galaxies.
I’m wondering how old you’d say the universe is.
There’s little doubt that the volume of the universe was smaller in the past, but there’s considerable doubt that the galaxies have emanated from a “Big Bang” singularity.
The Big Bang model doesn’t explain all of the observable data, and other models don’t have to explain all of it either.
In the case of general relativity, a deep gravity well correlates with extreme time dilation in the absence of any relative velocity whatsoever.
Astrophysics is a field of study, and a field of study doesn’t make predictions. People make predictions based on scientific models, and the Big Bang model is no more inherent to the field of astrophysics than other cosmological models.
I’m not saying we need a black hole, and in any case the Creator who establishes and maintains the laws of physics could presumably prevent the spaghettification of the earth amid even very extreme tidal forces.
History’s most influential teacher regarding the proper treatment of one’s fellow human beings—Jesus Christ—said God made humans male and female “from the beginning of creation.”
For most practical purposes, the Big Bang model is the status quo.
There’s very little disagreement between creationists and Big Bang promoters about the actual observable data. Most of the disagreement is about the underlying (and often unexamined) assumptions on which our interpretations of that data are based.
Jerry writes:
Creationists generally believe China was formed around 4,000 years ago.
Your source doesn’t impress me as credible.
Adam had written:
Jerry writes:
I’m pretty sure I’ve never said 6,000 years was an absolute maximum.
I’ve never heard of any creationist claiming the world was created on the first day of January.
The Chinese who were making scientific discoveries before 6,000 years ago aren’t chopped liver because they didn’t exist.
Leslie writes:
This is entirely plausible from a creationist perspective and fits into the young-earth timetable not long after 2000 BC.
We generally regard them as traces of past dinosaurs preserved in the earth’s crust.
Jerry asks:
I’m a small-l libertarian, but I’m not currently registered with the Libertarian Party.
6,000 years old, what rubbish. You guys must hang around and think of stupid stuff and giggle at how you can pull off the theater. You make religion and those who see it as a salvation a joke. Your message is not one of hope and future, your message is of fear and hate and bullying. So then, your message will only keep getting the response from me that your an idiot, not even a useful one either. So keep at it dummy.
I put the 1st day of January so there was a starting date. The 1st is always a good time to have a New Years resolution. I had one this year in fact. It was to call out stupidity. Guess your my first. What a way to start the year!
Your just like your daddy Don, another idiot when it comes to China. China was doing great things while the rest of the world was still crapping in the streets and tossing it out the window.
The Chinese just do not fit into your perfect picture do they dummy. Regarding the Hebrew discovery of the Americas, that does not fit in either. Even though you believe in the words they supposedly wrote in a remote corner of the round earth. Why is that not possible to you? You expect others to believe in your tall tales about a 6,000 year old universe, so what is your problem with those same Jewish dudes sailing on over for some guacamole, tomatoes, corn and a little smoking tobacco, cerveza and a whole Cinco de mayo thing, before heading back to the sand. The food there was all Kosher, so there was that.
On top of it all, your claim to be a Libertarian. Your actions are not in the keeping of a Libertarian, kind of fraudy in that scene as well. No wonder you got whipped in your election. Folks generally see through nonsense just like they did with your daddy Don. Only thing there is that he had some Russian help to make that all happen. Of course, in South Dakota, you get to play that daddy Don game and get by with it, but not so much that 6,000 year old universe thingy. Nope that is just one hill to tall to climb. Speaking of the Hill, here is an article that says your a fraud. http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/281399-5-things-the-libertarian-party-stands-for The Hill says your a phony, so you have that going for you as well. Your a republican through and through, nothing wrong with that, just admit that is what you are, your certainly not a Libertarian, not even close.
Evans, meet bucket of cold water…http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0169486 Your claims are all wet. The facts just keep coming to me, each day man. It is like…wait for it…heaven sent…This was done with Scientific, what a concept, test results. You must have been absent during those days in the classroom when the professor spoke of the ways in which to test for carbon dating.
Kurt,
F=ma, and galaxies have a very large mass. Your proposed acceleration must have been greater than the Big Bang for galaxies to reach their present speeds in a shorter time frame.
What amount of time dilation do you require? If the gravity is too large, then regular matter pretty much gets pulled apart due to tidal forces (your legs get pulled greater than your head does). You can’t pick and choose your favorite parts of relativity and ignore the other features until you get the result you want (sorry).
One thing you are missing…astrophysics can be questioned and refined…in fact it is supposed to be as part of the scientific process. Theories are statistically judged upon how they match old data and predict the results of new experiments. Can creationism be questioned or refined as the result of an experiment (including the data collected over the last 400 years)?
There is no reason to believe that God couldn’t have guided evolution on Earth. The idea that evolution is some kind of atheist postulation is only bogus and downright stupid.
Kurt, your so incredibly lucky to have a guy like Doc taking the time, clearly an act of real – legitimate – compassion, to teach you some facts supplementary information on what a theory is. Most people (like me) would just call you stupid and move on – I try to limit communications to people with relatively decent cognitive capacity.
Adam, you are correct. It is quite possible that hand could have guided evolution on this planet. You are also correct in your take on doc. We disagree on many things, but I do respect and admire his ability to actually teach. Great to watch that happen from someone in the actual science field.
Adam had asked:
I’d replied:
My reply failed to properly attribute the questions above to Adam, which made it look like Leslie had asked them. I apologize.
Jerry asks:
I’m not saying it isn’t possible. I’m only saying your source doesn’t impress me as credible.
Robert McTaggart had written:
How old would you say the universe is, Robert?
Are you suggesting I’ve proposed that galaxies had initial velocities of zero?
I’m definitely proposing a very deep gravity well and extreme time dilation, but I’m proposing them on the fourth day of creation, before there were legs and heads.
What features of relativity would you say I’m ignoring?
Astrophysics is a field of study. What can be questioned and refined are the cosmological models proposed within that field of study, not the field of study itself.
It would be more precise to say the cosmological models proposed by creationists can be questioned and refined as the result of scientific observations and experiments. Such models have been questioned and refined many times in the three decades I’ve been studying them.
Adam writes:
There’s no valid reason to believe God couldn’t have guided macroevolution, but there’s plenty of reason to believe He didn’t.
Macroevolution would require an actual net increase in genetic information, and no one in the history of modern science has ever observed a net increase in genetic information due to any mutation or combination of mutations. Also, there’s strong historical evidence that Jesus Christ publicly recognized the Hebrew Bible as true, and there’s even stronger historical evidence that He rose from the dead.
Even if you regard those pieces of evidence as insufficient reasons to reject macroevolution, your suggestion that there’s “no” reason to reject it is absurd.
There is also the question as to whether what we call the universe is actually one of many. It could be that the real universe or multiverse is far older and far more vast than we expect, and we could be very recent by comparison. That is an example of a theory that needs some experimental support, but would put a dent in our assumptions that OUR universe is entirely special.
The galaxies are moving with respect to us. An inflationary universe that originates from a much smaller volume than today is the simplest model that generates all of the speeds of the billions of galaxies that we see at the same time. Your model has to fit all of that data…and that is a lot of data…and it hasn’t yet.
I note that you don’t give me a number with regard to the amount of time dilation, only that it has to be a lot. Currently one can only produce gravity with mass. So where did all that mass that has generated your undefined time dilation go? How much mass does your theory require?
In fact, time does run at different rates at the surface compared with a clock on an airplane or a satellite due to earth’s gravity, and even variations in local density make a difference. But you need an atomic clock with very fine precision to tell the difference. We actually require general relativity for calibration of our technologies that use GPS. But if you are relying on the mass of the earth, it will not generate enough time dilation at all.
I’d asked Robert McTaggart:
Robert replies:
Yes, the multiverse cosmology definitely needs some experimental support. Would you say the evidence for it is stronger or weaker than the evidence for Christ’s resurrection?
I’d asked:
Robert replies:
We disagree, and you’re changing the subject. You’ve been arguing that there’s insufficient evidence for my “proposed acceleration” of galaxies, even before I’ve proposed any. That’s a good example of the kinds of unexamined assumptions that underlie the Big Bang model.
As I’d said in my previous comment above (2017-01-15 at 23:53), the Big Bang model doesn’t explain all of the observable data, and other models don’t have to explain all of it either.
I’d propose a minimum initial dilation ratio of approximately 32 trillion. I note that you don’t give me a number with regard to the age of the cosmos (“real universe or multiverse”), saying only that it “could be” “far older and far more vast than we expect.”
I’d propose that the original positions of the nearest stars were much closer to the earth than their current positions, and that those stars account for most of the mass in question.
I believe my specific dilation model would require a minimum of approximately 2,100 solar masses.
The earth’s present gravity well definitely wouldn’t correlate with the extreme dilation proposed in my model.
You are right, the evidence for a multiverse is not experimental, more of a proposed solution to a theoretical problem (multiple dimensions, if one big bang occurred perhaps the same process is actually on-going, etc.). At some point it has to make a prediction that can be supported experimentally. Same thing goes for string theory…very elegant, but no direct experimental evidence yet.
Science is a process, and the story of the multiverse or string theory won’t be written until some real data is obtained. We are in the middle of it. Not all theories will work out when confronted with the burden of experimental evidence. But we do learn some things about what doesn’t work when we hypothesize and then test those hypotheses.
I am fine with religion and the creation story (and many other creation stories) being taught in schools as an elective with parental consent….only that it be taught honestly as religion, not science. In what ways can creation science predict and explain natural phenomena today? Or was it only good 6000 years ago? Can it be tested and augmented based on evidence? Can it every fail?
Or is it really part of a grander story about how one religion proposes to live life better and treat others? I don’t think the latter makes it inconsequential….just that it is not science.
The Devil has radical Christians, like Kurt, totally confused about the nature of existence. They question the most basic sciences regarding the origins of man because their faith in God is weaker than most peoples’.
Lucifer wants us all to think the Earth is 6,000 years old because the dumber we get, the further from God we go.
‘Truth’ is where religion does not conflict with science. Kurt’s logic, which he made perfectly clear, is disgusting flagrant BS. They way he formulates his thoughts is reflective of cognitive handicaps. When a guy is that religiously delusional, all he does is pose Devil’s advocate arguements against the science “establishment” – truly – taking the Devil’s side and promoting his lies – just exactly like Donald Trump.
Kurt needs to pray harder for some brains and exorcize some inner demons, and maybe then he could get on board with the science community.
A clock on the surface of the sun will be off by about a minute after one year. The time dilation effects drop from there as you increase the distance from the sun.
Stars won’t help you in this regard.
I’d written to Robert McTaggart:
Robert replies:
Thanks, Robert. Your response seems to affirm that the evidence for Christ’s resurrection is stronger than the evidence for the multiverse cosmology.
To be precise, creation science can’t predict and explain natural phenomena, but scientists can predict and explain natural phenomena based on cosmological models proposed by creationists. Like the Big Bang model, cosmological models proposed by creationists can definitely be augmented based on evidence. Also like the Big Bang model, they can’t ever “fail” any ultimate test within the parameters of observational science.
It seems to me that it can be both science and part of a grander story.
As described above (2017-01-18 at 23:58), my specific dilation model would require a minimum of approximately 2,100 solar masses. You’re describing dilation correlated with exactly one solar mass. If this is supposed to be some kind of refutation, your reasoning isn’t clear to me.
Adam writes:
At least we agree about that.
I cannot do an experiment to show that the resurrection process is repeatable, and I hope you are not going to subject anyone to crucifixion….are you? Nor can anyone examine a body to develop some kind of physical evidence (like, here is a hair sample prior to the resurrection, and here is one afterwards, etc.).
So in terms of physical evidence, they are the same because there is none.
Great, let’s try to put 2100 solar masses next to each other so that the time dilation effect is ~2100 minutes per year….not enough.
Physical geometry prevents you from putting that many suns next to each other or touching the same point to generate the max time dilation…go head and try it with basketballs and let me know when you get 2100 basketballs to touch the same point…just to get that meager amount of time dilation.
Plus you would essentially have to turn off gravity to keep the stars in place at such proximity, but you need gravity for the time dilation. If you can keep all of those stars in place in stable orbits at such proximity, kudos to you. You end up generating orbits that are no longer elliptical or circular, they are parabolic or hyperbolic, which means the stars leave and don’t return. Which all assumes that you have the power to move stars around in the first place into their original locations.
Time to abandon this theory, and develop a new one using black holes instead, which will run into its own problems again. Great fun for science fiction though.
The process of creation has left markers behind, namely things like the ratio of hydrogen to helium, neutrinos, dark matter, speed distribution of the galaxies, etc. So there is evidence for a creation theory (big bang or otherwise) to address. Those that do it better will be more successful.
I’d written to Robert McTaggart:
Robert replies:
There’s a sense in which the Bible says Christians crucify ourselves, but other than that, no.
What about historical evidence? Would you say the historical evidence for Christ’s resurrection is weaker or stronger than the historical evidence for the multiverse cosmology?
I’d written:
Robert replies:
Contingent on density, general relativity allows for infinite gravitational time dilation correlated with as little as 22 micrograms of mass.
The phrase solar mass in this context refers to a unit of measure rather than to an actual physical sun. The number 2100 is a measure of the total mass in question, not the number of objects.
I’ve never proposed that the stars either moved into their original locations or remained in place there.
Your model has problems far more serious than any you’ve identified in mine.
Unfortunately the most widely accepted models aren’t always the ones that best address the evidence.
I have enormous, fundamental and meaningful disagreements with Robert McTaggart on some of the things that matter to me the most. I have even been disrespectful about it. But, Kurt, you sir… you are so out of touch with what normal people KNOW to be true that I am not sure that you have any business purporting to know anything at all.
People like Kurt bring differing ideologies together. Check it out, it just happened here.
The Odyssey and the Iliad are also “historical documents”. How much weight should I give to those? Or to twitter? Why do journalists (good ones anyway) look for 3-4 sources to confirm a story?
Probably the density of that mass you state is radically astronomically high to get the requisite time dilation. I guess a test of your theory is whether anyone can ever prepare a mass of 22 micrograms to generate the desired relativistic effects.
That is even less than a grain of salt! Sometimes I do stand in front of the refrigerator and time passes by…but that is not due to relativity :^).
Adam and I don’t disagree on the need to produce more clean energy, but we do disagree about the best way to go about generating the energy we actually use. We also disagree on models related to low doses of radiation, but the data for that discussion is not as good at low doses as it is for studying the Big Bang. Sometimes those discussions get heated, but we can both be passionate about our cases.
Disagreements about the conclusions drawn from data are perfectly fine. Those can be resolved by taking more data or designing a better experiment, and ultimately we make the best judgments we can based on statistics, not perfection. Proposing creative solutions to intractable or unsolved problems is terrific.
But at some point ignoring physical data that conflicts with your theory is not compatible with science.
Reading Kurt’s thoughts and logic construct is really encouraging in terms how it can bring differing reasonably smart people together behind the common enemy of the Earth Birthers or whatever those fools want to call themselves.
Hey Kurt, pony up on the Earth’s birth certificate – ride that horse – and KNOW that you are a member of the least intelligent demographic in America. Don’t be thinkin’ no one ever made that perfectly clear for ya!
I’d asked Robert McTaggart:
Robert replies:
The phrase historical documents normally refers to original manuscripts, and to the best of my knowledge we have no original manuscripts of the Iliad, the Odyssey, or the Bible.
I’d say you should give them at least enough weight to conclude that the Trojan War in the twelfth century before Christ really happened, that Ulysses was a widely respected leader, and that both poems are loosely based on the history available when Homer composed them around four centuries later.
In contrast, most of the events in the Bible, including those surrounding Christ’s death and resurrection, were recorded soon after they occurred based on firsthand accounts.
It’s conceivable that the 500-plus people who reportedly saw Christ healthy after the crucifixion were all part of a vast right-wing conspiracy. It’s also conceivable that, as many Muslims insist, God transformed Judas to look like Christ, and Judas rather than Christ was the one crucified. It seems to me that we need to ask whether those are the most reasonable explanations.
I’d say you should evaluate Twitter claims individually.
I’m not sure, Robert.
Would you say the historical evidence for Christ’s resurrection is weaker or stronger than the historical evidence for the multiverse cosmology?
I’d written:
Robert writes:
As I’d indicated in my previous comment above (2017-01-19 at 23:48), neither your cosmological model nor mine can be subjected to any ultimate test within the parameters of observational science.
Yes, the mass of a typical grain of salt is more than 22 micrograms.
That isn’t always true.
What “physical data” would you say I’m ignoring, Robert?
Adam writes to me:
Actually I used to “know” it was “true” that the earth was at least millions of years old, and my feelings toward those who didn’t “know” it are easy to remember. It’s not that I’m out of touch with your point of view. It’s just that I’m no longer in agreement with it.
“Would you say the historical evidence for Christ’s resurrection is weaker or stronger than the historical evidence for the multiverse cosmology?”
I don’t know…show me some evidence that be tested/replicated or processes that can be repeated in a controlled experiment and then I can judge whether the case is weaker or stronger.
The good news for you is that crucifixion experiments on humans (and remember, Jesus was unique, but still a man) to test the resurrection theory are not going to get approved by any review board to find out, so you don’t have to worry about that principle being questioned. The bad news is that your theory cannot be confirmed by independent means as a result, and you share that bad news with multiverse theories that so far have not generated an experimental test either.
Some of the evidence you are ignoring is the isotopic distribution of the basic elements in the universe (hydrogen, helium in particular), if not the half-lives of said elements that last more than 6000 years. How do you propose to change the half-life of an isotope…to show that it is indeed possible?
I’d asked Robert McTaggart:
Robert replies:
I’m asking about the historical evidence, Robert, not the experimental evidence. Would you say the historical evidence for Christ’s resurrection is weaker or stronger than the historical evidence for the multiverse cosmology?
I’m not proposing to change the half-life of an isotope. I’m also not assuming it’s impossible. Neither your cosmological model nor mine explains all of the observable data, and there’s an important difference between not explaining something and ignoring it.
Mr. Evans, I can answer this for you.
God is dead. He drowned in a bowl of cereal. Jesus too.
Kurt has become a Devil’s advocate. Satan has many people’s faith twisted and turned all around – successfully trivializing the real actual basics in/of God’s creation – in order to confuse our purpose(s) in life. One day, I hope Kurt is able to come close enough to God to realize the err in his current understanding.
We should pray for Kurt. God did not make everybody smart. It is not a good thing or a bad thing, it just simply is what it is.
Adam writes:
One day I hope you realize that the word err is a verb, not a noun.
A comma splice incorrectly connects two independent clauses with only a comma. It isn’t simply what it is. It’s a bad thing.
An expert in English on a blog does not a good Christian make.
Kurt, I agree that there has been far more written about the resurrection than there ever will be about multidimensional universes.
But that is the essence of science. You do not have to take somebody’s word for it. The answers are not always known ahead of time, but investigation will bring them out. You should be able to replicate the results reasonably well or make predictions that can be confirmed.
Otherwise the theory simply has less weight. That doesn’t mean one is a bad person for proposing a creative solution, it just means that the next theory has to be better.
I’d asked Robert McTaggart:
Robert replies:
The relative amount written about something doesn’t directly reflect the relative strength of the historical evidence for it, so you still haven’t answered the question.
The essence of science is observation and experimentation. Investigation within the parameters of observational science can never bring out definitive answers about the origin of the cosmos in the unobservable distant past.
Does the multiverse cosmology make a single prediction that could possibly be confirmed by scientific observations?
A comma splice doesn’t mean one is a bad person either, Robert. It just means one’s future punctuation ought to be better.
Kurt, some people comment on a blog on the go. Most people are also not such stuffy English snobs either.
No matter what I think of your punctuation, the way you formulate your logic is perfectly clear.
There is more written about it, period: Whether you choose to believe something that cannot be examined further is up to you. It’s called faith…not science. Why do I need to know precisely how the Big Bang occurred in order to love my neighbor?
The astronomical evidence that we can see today (you know, like stars, galaxies, neutrinos, what makes up the cosmos, etc.) is measurable….up to about 100,000 years after the big bang. So we have to model what happened before then.
The good news is that model must also explain the Big Bang, the subsequent expansion that we see today, and make predictions about the future, all of which is tied directly to evidence you and I can gather. We must use the same laws of physics throughout.
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about-us/102-the-universe/cosmology-and-the-big-bang/the-big-bang/597-can-we-look-back-far-enough-in-time-to-see-the-big-bang-beginner
“when the Universe was less than 100 000 years old, the matter and radiation were so densely packed that light was “coupled” to the matter. This means that light which was emitted when the Universe was less than 100 000 years old couldn’t “go anywhere”, and hence can’t reach us today. Observationally, this means that when we try to look at higher and higher redshifts, we hit a “wall” corresponding to the redshift when the Universe was 100 000 years old. “
Doc, I envy your patience and very much respect your desire to shepard the weak through the valley of darkness.
I can lead folks to water, but I cannot make them drink. But there is some nice clean water over here.
Robert McTaggart asks:
I’ve never said you do. People often love their neighbors, and there was no Big Bang.
Actually we have to model everything before the observations. Your assertion that we can measure up to about 100,000 years after the Big Bang is itself based on a cosmological model that can never be subjected to any ultimate test within the parameters of observational science.
A cosmological model doesn’t have to explain any Big Bang unless the assumption of a Big Bang is part of the model, and it doesn’t have to apply the same laws of physics throughout unless the assumption that the laws of physics have never changed is part of the model.